From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Mon Jun  5 10:08:24 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id KAA10620 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:08:24 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id KAA05936. Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:06:16 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id KAA05932 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:06:10 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id KAA10514 (SMTP). Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:06:08 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: (qmail 30887 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2000 08:05:54 -0000
Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131)
  by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2000 08:05:54 -0000
Message-ID: <393B5EF1.DCC9CA3@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:04:01 +0100
From: Ray Howgego <howgego@easynet.co.uk>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Subject: Re: [EXP] The voyage of Leon Pancaldo, 1537-38.
References: <200005301151.NAA04266@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

Can anybody tell me anything about the voyage of Leon Pancaldo in
1537-1538, which sailed from Cadiz in an attempt to reach Peru by way of
the Strait of Magellan ?

This would have been only the second voyage to attempt this route (after
the failure of Simon de Alcazaba), and pre-dating that of Alonso
(sometimes Francisco) Camargo by two years.

The only reference I have to this voyage is in the title of a very rare
pamphlet by José Toribio Medina, published in a limited edition of 200
copies and, needless to say, not available in England:

Medina, José Toribio: Algunas noticias de Leon Pancaldo y su tentativa
para ir desde Cadiz al Peru por el estrecho de Magallanes en los anos de
1537-1538 (Santiago de Chile 1908).

Pancaldo must be identical with the Leon Pancaldo who sailed as a seaman
in the "Trinidad" with the Magellan expedition.

Ray Howgego

From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Mon Jun  5 19:42:28 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id TAA01876 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:42:27 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id TAA06851. Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:39:17 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id TAA06847 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:39:11 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from f189.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.189] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id TAA10496 (SMTP). Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:39:10 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: (qmail 30613 invoked by uid 0); 5 Jun 2000 17:38:39 -0000
Message-ID: <20000605173839.30612.qmail@hotmail.com>
Received: from 12.13.238.140 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP;
	Mon, 05 Jun 2000 10:38:39 PDT
X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.140]
From: "Gregory McIntosh" <plusultra@hotmail.com>
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Subject: Re: [EXP] The voyage of Leon Pancaldo, 1537-38.
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 10:38:39 PDT
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO


The are at least two copies of Medina's book here in California, plus:

Peragallo, Prospero, <Sussidi documentari per una monografia su Leone 
Pancaldo>, Rome: Auspice il Ministero della Pubblica Istruzione, 1894, 46 p.

There is also the short work of fiction about Pancaldo by Virginia Carreño, 
<El hombre de Magallanes>, Buenos Aires: Casa Pardo, 1977.

If you wish, you may contact me offline and I can tell you about how to go 
about requesting photocopies from the institution (University of California) 
holding these works.

Greg McIntosh
plusultra@hotmail.com

>
>Can anybody tell me anything about the voyage of Leon Pancaldo in
>1537-1538, which sailed from Cadiz in an attempt to reach Peru by way of
>the Strait of Magellan ?
>
>This would have been only the second voyage to attempt this route (after
>the failure of Simon de Alcazaba), and pre-dating that of Alonso
>(sometimes Francisco) Camargo by two years.
>
>The only reference I have to this voyage is in the title of a very rare
>pamphlet by José Toribio Medina, published in a limited edition of 200
>copies and, needless to say, not available in England:
>
>Medina, José Toribio: Algunas noticias de Leon Pancaldo y su tentativa
>para ir desde Cadiz al Peru por el estrecho de Magallanes en los anos de
>1537-1538 (Santiago de Chile 1908).
>
>Pancaldo must be identical with the Leon Pancaldo who sailed as a seaman
>in the "Trinidad" with the Magellan expedition.
>
>Ray Howgego

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Mon Jun  5 21:22:44 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id VAA01995 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:22:44 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id VAA07013. Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:20:04 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id VAA06962 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:02:18 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id VAA10944 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:02:02 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from hola ([195.5.79.224]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp
          (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FVP3EV06.34H for
          <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:59:19 +0200 
Message-ID: <000c01bfcf1f$d0b01640$e04f05c3@hola.arrakis.es>
From: "j. anaya" <anay@arrakis.es>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Subject: [EXP] Master John of Bristol
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:56:52 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

A datum  for the history of the sailings: 
the first englishman that arrived to thePacific Ocean
[I believe] was one with the name of "Maese Juan 
de Bristol." (Master John of Bristol)
This englishman was one of Magellan's expediccion. 
He had bad luck: he died 
when they were crossing the Pacific, and 
their body was throwed to the sea in the
Pacific Ocean. 

Jose Anaya     anay@arrakis.es


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Fri Jun  9 19:13:47 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id TAA19126 (ESMTP). Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:13:47 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id TAA17003. Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:59 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id TAA16999 (ESMTP). Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:54 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id TAA02818 (SMTP). Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:52 +0200 (MET DST)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:09:52 +0200 (MET DST)
Message-Id: <200006091709.TAA02818@svbcf01.win.tue.nl>
Received: (qmail 14977 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2000 17:09:23 -0000
Received: from jimh.msns.eph.ptd.net (24.229.52.223)
  by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 9 Jun 2000 17:09:23 -0000
X-Sender: heritage@mail.ptd.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
From: Heritage Map Museum <heritage@carto.com>
Subject: [EXP] June 17th Antique Map Auction
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: O

                        Saturday, June 17, 2000


1)You may still receive the printed version of our Antique Map Auction: XX.
We will ship by Priority Mail. Orders can be made from our Web Retail
Gallery or you may  call or fax your order.

2) The full Catalogue is also on the Web at   www.carto.com  with over 200
illustrations.

3) This is a live auction with Absentee Bids and telephone participation (by
prior reservation - please contact us well before the Auction day).

4) CD ROM Orders: We are now in the process of shipping the Antique Map CD
Rom 2000, First Edition. The CD ROM can still be ordered from our Web Retail
Gallery at a reduced price.   www.carto.com
James E. Hess
Curator & Owner
Heritage Map Museum
49 N. Broad St. (Rear)
PO Box 412
Lititz, Pa 17543
717-626-5002
FAX  626-8858
http://www.carto.com

A child is not a glass that is filled but a fire that is set ablaze.
                                                   Maria Montessori



From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Wed Jun  7 15:12:25 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id PAA08778 (ESMTP). Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:12:24 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id PAA11613. Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:10:07 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id PAA11609 (ESMTP). Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:10:02 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from imo-r11.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id PAA21299 (ESMTP). Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:10:00 +0200 (MET DST)
From: ExJournal@aol.com
Received: from ExJournal@aol.com
	by imo-r11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.9.) id l.62.4242785 (3316)
  for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:09:23 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <62.4242785.266fa383@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:09:23 EDT
Subject: Re: [EXP] Hudson primary resources
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 66
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

To the best of my knowledge, there are few "primary" sources available. No 
diaries, correspondence, or even pilot books. There are court records dating 
to 1615, and Abucuck Prickett's apologia contained within Geo. Asher's 1864 
recounting of the voyages of Hudson, along with the portions of Discovery's 
log dating to 1610, which survived the mutineers predations. This was 
published under the auspices of the Hakluyt Society, and the cataloging is 
curious. Your librarian can help you find it. Read it critically, because 
most of it, while probably true, points to motivation far removed from 
searching for the Northwest Passage. Hope this helps,  Carl Schuster

From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Wed Jun  7 15:50:17 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id PAA10680 (ESMTP). Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:50:17 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id PAA11674. Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:50:08 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id PAA11670 (ESMTP). Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:50:01 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from root@homer.iosphere.net [204.50.51.2] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id PAA21488 (ESMTP). Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:49:54 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from edahl (p34.iosphere.net [205.209.4.34]) by homer.iosphere.net (8.9.1/8.7.5) with SMTP id JAA19046 for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:49:44 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <004901bfd087$6886f2a0$2204d1cd@edahl>
From: "Ed Dahl" <edahl@iosphere.net>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Subject: Re: [EXP] Charles Duncan
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:48:54 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

For Charles Duncan, there are several references and two 1792
maps listed in:

     Richard Ruggles, _A Country so Interesting: The Hudson's
     Bay Company and Two Centuries of Mapping, 1670-1870_
     (Montreal: Queens' University Press, 1991)
     ISBN 0-7735-0678-0

Ed Dahl, 1292 Montée Paiement, Gatineau (Québec)
     J8R 3K5  CANADA
INTERNET:  edahl@iosphere.net
TEL:  (819) 561-4029

-----Original Message-----
From: Andre Engels <engels@win.tue.nl>
To: discovery@win.tue.nl <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 7:56 AM
Subject: [EXP] Charles Duncan


Finally, a request out of my own interest: Does someone have information
on a late 18th century explorer by the name of Charles Duncan?

The reason he drew my interest, is that his name came up in two seemingly
unrelated contexts: One book mentions that in 1788, he drew the entrance
of Strait Juan de Fuca (probably in service of John Meares), while another
says that in 1791 he was in temporary service of the Hudson's Bay Company to
search for the northwest passage. The latter mention at least gives the
impression that he had already made a voyage for that purpose.

Is this the same person? And what exactly were the voyages he made?
--
Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644
telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile)
http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html



From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Sat Jun 17 22:58:12 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id WAA20678 (ESMTP). Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:58:12 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id WAA01273. Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:56:16 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id WAA01269 (ESMTP). Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:56:10 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id WAA06519 (ESMTP). Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:56:08 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from hola ([195.5.79.196]) by ssmtp04.melange.isp
          (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FWBGP000.G1P for
          <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:53:24 +0200 
Message-ID: <003001bfd89d$bca72940$c44f05c3@hola.arrakis.es>
From: "j. anaya" <anay@arrakis.es>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Subject: [EXP] tahiti & maximo
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:50:55 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

Between the second and third travel of Cook, a
 Spanish ship arrived to Tahití and it put  a man there
 with the mission of learning the language of the
natives. This man had the name of "Maximo". Past one year,
the ship  returned and it picked up Maximo.
This man wrote a book about the customs of the tahitians.
He, in this book,  said interesting things of these customs,
 as that the things stolen to Cook, ( for example  a book of
 mathematics in english), they were in a warehouse of one of
 the kings of Tahiti, as almost  magic objects.
Do you know if this book is published in English?

Jose Anaya  anay@arrakis.es


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Sun Jun 18 01:51:01 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id BAA01216 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:51:01 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id BAA01606. Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:50:36 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id BAA01601 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:50:30 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id BAA07009 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:50:27 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph ([210.23.234.90])
	by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA22404
	for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 07:50:24 +0800 (PHT)
Received: from default (ppp153.dyn241.pacific.net.ph [210.23.241.153])
        by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP
        id HAA24661 for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 07:50:24 +0800 (PHT)
Message-ID: <000c01bfd8f3$252fb7c0$99f117d2@default>
From: "vicente c. de jesus" <vicdej@pacific.net.ph>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
References: <003001bfd89d$bca72940$c44f05c3@hola.arrakis.es>
Subject: Re: [EXP] tahiti & maximo
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 15:02:19 +0800
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO


----- Original Message -----
From: j. anaya <anay@arrakis.es>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2000 4:50 AM
Subject: [EXP] tahiti & maximo


Between the second and third travel of Cook, a
 Spanish ship arrived to Tahití and it put  a man there
 with the mission of learning the language of the
natives. This man had the name of "Maximo". Past one year,
the ship  returned and it picked up Maximo.
This man wrote a book about the customs of the tahitians.
He, in this book,  said interesting things of these customs,
 as that the things stolen to Cook, ( for example  a book of
 mathematics in english), they were in a warehouse of one of
 the kings of Tahiti, as almost  magic objects.
Do you know if this book is published in English?

Jose Anaya  anay@arrakis.es
Thank you for your message. I know nothing about Cook's explorations. My
study is limited to Magellan's voyage, and more particularly to his
Philippine sojourn, but more specifically to the 7-day Mazaua episode on
March 28-April 4, 1521.





From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Sun Jun 18 02:19:33 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id CAA02683 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:19:33 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id CAA01652. Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:19:22 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id CAA01648 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:19:16 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id CAA02660 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:19:14 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from hola ([212.59.207.225]) by ssmtp04.melange.isp
          (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FWBQ3J02.Z1V for
          <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:16:31 +0200 
Message-ID: <000a01bfd8ba$1cf506c0$e1cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es>
From: "j. anaya" <anay@arrakis.es>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Subject: RE: [EXP] tahiti & maximo
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:14:03 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO


What occurs that day ?

Jose Anaya    anay@arrakis.es



|
|----- Original Message -----
|From: j. anaya <anay@arrakis.es>
|To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
|Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2000 4:50 AM
|Subject: [EXP] tahiti & maximo
|
|
|Between the second and third travel of Cook, a
| Spanish ship arrived to Tahití and it put  a man there
| with the mission of learning the language of the
|natives. This man had the name of "Maximo". Past one year,
|the ship  returned and it picked up Maximo.
|This man wrote a book about the customs of the tahitians.
|He, in this book,  said interesting things of these customs,
| as that the things stolen to Cook, ( for example  a book of
| mathematics in english), they were in a warehouse of one of
| the kings of Tahiti, as almost  magic objects.
|Do you know if this book is published in English?
|
|Jose Anaya  anay@arrakis.es
|
|
|Thank you for your message. I know nothing about Cook's explorations. My
|study is limited to Magellan's voyage, and more particularly to his
|Philippine sojourn, but more specifically to the 7-day Mazaua episode on
|March 28-April 4, 1521.
|
|
|
|


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Sun Jun 18 03:06:07 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id DAA04476 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:06:07 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id DAA01732. Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:05:56 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id DAA01728 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:05:50 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4] (may be forged) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id DAA04471 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:05:42 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from stargate1.auckland.ac.nz (stargate1.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.239.20])
	by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with SMTP id NAA23981
	for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 13:05:39 +1200 (NZST)
Received: from Star_domain-Message_Server by stargate1.auckland.ac.nz
	with Novell_GroupWise; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 13:04:08 +1200
Message-Id: <s94cc8c8.096@stargate1.auckland.ac.nz>
X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 13:03:54 +1200
From: "Shane Riddle" <s.riddle@auckland.ac.nz>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Subject: Re: [EXP] tahiti & maximo
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

There were 3 voyages to Tahiti by Spaniards around the time of Captain =
Cook's voyages to the island. The first took place in 1772 and was to =
check out what was on the island after the news of Cook and Bougainville's =
voyages became public. In 1774 Maximo Rodriguez was left on the island as =
an interpreter (the earlier voyage had carried 4 Tahitians back to Lima, 2 =
died but Rodriguez apparently learnt some of the language from the other =
2). There were also 2 priests and a servant. The idea of the voyage seemed =
to be the establishment of a mission. This was a total falure and they =
returned to Lima 10 months later when the ship returned with supplies. =
Rodriguez's book is a diary of the time he spent there. As such it does =
talk quite a bit about Tahitian customs but he also mentions another work, =
specifically on their cultural practices, which was, as far as I am aware, =
lost. The priests who he accompanied also left a brief diary.

To answer your question: yes, the book is published in English.=20

Corney, B. G. The Quest and Occupation of Tahiti by Emissaries of Spain =
during the years 1772-1776: Told in dispatches and other contemporary =
documents. Hakluyt Society 1913-19.=20
Volume 3 of this is Rodriguez's diary and the other 2 contain the diaries =
of the Captans of the ships and a multitude of archival memoranda about =
the circumstances of the journey. It is the best resource of primary texts =
I found on the voyages.

The diary is published in Spanish (although you probably know this =
already) as Rodriguez, M. Espanoles en Tahiti, Historia 16, 1992.=20

I have also seen another 2 diaries dealing with the same voyage published =
in Spanish:

Pantoja, J. "Un diario ineditio sobre la presencia espanola en Tahiti" =
Revista Espanola de Estudios del Pacifico 2 (1992): 109-181 (not in =
Corney's work although he does mention its existance)

Andia Varela, J. Relacion del viaje hecho a la Isla de Amat, por otro =
nombre Otahiti y descubrimiento de otras adyacentes en los anos 1774 y =
1775. Barcelona: Jose Porter, 1947. (This is translated in Corney, Vol. 2)

As far as secondary sources go, I found Spate, O.H.K, Monopolists and =
Freebooters & Paradise Found and Lost, Australian National Univerisity =
Press, 1983 & 88 to be useful.=20
In Spanish there is Landin Carrasco, A. Descubrimientos espanoles en el =
mar del sur. Editorial Naval 1992. The third volume of this deal with the =
voyages to Tahiti, although it appears to rely quite heavily on Corney.

They both have chapters on the Voyage and are useful to locate the voyage =
with its contemporaries.

I am unfamiliar with the warehouse, but the Spaniards were shown objects =
obviously left by the British. There was an interesting dynamic going on  =
as the Spanish were there both to convert the Tahitians and to find out =
what the British had been up to. Cook mentions Rodriguez briefly in one of =
his diaries too, but the English did not appear to be nearly so concerned =
by the Spanish presence as vice versa.

I would be very interested in hearing any other information out there =
about these 3 voyages.

Shane Riddle.


<<< "j. anaya" <anay@arrakis.es>  6/18  9:01a >>>
Between the second and third travel of Cook, a
 Spanish ship arrived to Tahit=ED and it put  a man there
 with the mission of learning the language of the
natives. This man had the name of "Maximo". Past one year,
the ship  returned and it picked up Maximo.
This man wrote a book about the customs of the tahitians.
He, in this book,  said interesting things of these customs,
 as that the things stolen to Cook, ( for example  a book of
 mathematics in english), they were in a warehouse of one of
 the kings of Tahiti, as almost  magic objects.
Do you know if this book is published in English?

Jose Anaya  anay@arrakis.es


                       =20

From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Sun Jun 18 08:06:58 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id IAA14930 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 08:06:57 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id IAA02056. Sun, 18 Jun 2000 08:06:42 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id IAA02052 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 08:06:36 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id IAA14920 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 08:06:34 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from hola ([212.59.206.98]) by ssmtp04.melange.isp
          (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FWC66E00.P02 for
          <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 08:03:50 +0200 
Message-ID: <001401bfd8ea$a22a6ee0$62ce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es>
From: "j. anaya" <anay@arrakis.es>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Subject: RE: [EXP] tahiti & maximo
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 08:01:22 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

Thank you v.m.

Jose Anaya       anay@arrakis.es





There were 3 voyages to Tahiti by Spaniards around the time of Captain
Cook's voyages to the island. The first took place in 1772 and was to check
out what was on the island after the news of Cook and Bougainville's
voyages became public. In 1774 Maximo Rodriguez was left on the island as
an interpreter (the earlier voyage had carried 4 Tahitians back to Lima, 2
died but Rodriguez apparently learnt some of the language from the other
2). There were also 2 priests and a servant. The idea of the voyage seemed
to be the establishment of a mission. This was a total falure and they
returned to Lima 10 months later when the ship returned with supplies.
Rodriguez's book is a diary of the time he spent there. As such it does
talk quite a bit about Tahitian customs but he also mentions another work,
specifically on their cultural practices, which was, as far as I am aware,
lost. The priests who he accompanied also left a brief diary.

To answer your question: yes, the book is published in English.

Corney, B. G. The Quest and Occupation of Tahiti by Emissaries of Spain
during the years 1772-1776: Told in dispatches and other contemporary
documents. Hakluyt Society 1913-19.
Volume 3 of this is Rodriguez's diary and the other 2 contain the diaries
of the Captans of the ships and a multitude of archival memoranda about the
circumstances of the journey. It is the best resource of primary texts I
found on the voyages.

The diary is published in Spanish (although you probably know this already)
as Rodriguez, M. Espanoles en Tahiti, Historia 16, 1992.

I have also seen another 2 diaries dealing with the same voyage published
in Spanish:

Pantoja, J. "Un diario ineditio sobre la presencia espanola en Tahiti"
Revista Espanola de Estudios del Pacifico 2 (1992): 109-181 (not in
Corney's work although he does mention its existance)

Andia Varela, J. Relacion del viaje hecho a la Isla de Amat, por otro
nombre Otahiti y descubrimiento de otras adyacentes en los anos 1774 y
1775. Barcelona: Jose Porter, 1947. (This is translated in Corney, Vol. 2)

As far as secondary sources go, I found Spate, O.H.K, Monopolists and
Freebooters & Paradise Found and Lost, Australian National Univerisity
Press, 1983 & 88 to be useful.
In Spanish there is Landin Carrasco, A. Descubrimientos espanoles en el mar
del sur. Editorial Naval 1992. The third volume of this deal with the
voyages to Tahiti, although it appears to rely quite heavily on Corney.

They both have chapters on the Voyage and are useful to locate the voyage
with its contemporaries.

I am unfamiliar with the warehouse, but the Spaniards were shown objects
obviously left by the British. There was an interesting dynamic going on
as the Spanish were there both to convert the Tahitians and to find out
what the British had been up to. Cook mentions Rodriguez briefly in one of
his diaries too, but the English did not appear to be nearly so concerned
by the Spanish presence as vice versa.

I would be very interested in hearing any other information out there about
these 3 voyages.

Shane Riddle.


<<< "j. anaya" <anay@arrakis.es>  6/18  9:01a >>>
Between the second and third travel of Cook, a
Spanish ship arrived to Tahití and it put  a man there
with the mission of learning the language of the
natives. This man had the name of "Maximo". Past one year,
the ship  returned and it picked up Maximo.
This man wrote a book about the customs of the tahitians.
He, in this book,  said interesting things of these customs,
as that the things stolen to Cook, ( for example  a book of
mathematics in english), they were in a warehouse of one of
the kings of Tahiti, as almost  magic objects.
Do you know if this book is published in English?

Jose Anaya  anay@arrakis.es





From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Sun Jun 18 10:34:15 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id KAA19556 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:34:15 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id KAA02205. Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:33:53 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id KAA02201 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:33:47 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from IDENT:root@[211.39.25.243] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id KAA19548 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:33:43 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.43.242.152])
	by dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21022
	for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:46:27 +0900
Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000618173242.00b2f890@pop3.demon.nl>
X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:38:38 +0900
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
From: Henny Savenije <adam&eve@henny-savenije.demon.nl>
Subject: Re: [EXP] Francesco Carletti
In-Reply-To: <38CD2909.B26EF1F5@oneimage.com>
References: <38CCA39A.619C65AA@easynet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

Long time ago I promissed to come back on the Carletti discourses.

Here is what MinSoo replied:

>Hi.  There must have been a miscommunication because the complete book by=
=20
>Carletti is not available by amazon.com (it's been out of print for a=20
>while) but on bibliofind.com where you can buy old and used books.  Looks=
=20
>like I won't need to buy it though since UCLA library has it.  Hope this=20
>answers your question.
>Minsoo

On=20
http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/search.html?dealerid=3D=
&qauthor=3DCarletti&qtitle=3D&qcomments=3D&minp=3D&maxp=3D&daysback=3Dat+any=
+date&SUBMIT1=3DSEARCH

You can find:



                                   CARLETTI, Francesco.: Reis om de wereld.=
=20
1594 - 1606. ; Den Haag 1965
                               235 p. ills. kaarten. Eerste deel- Over de=20
West-Indi=EBn. pp. 1-90. Tweede deel -
                               Over de Oost-Indi=EBn. pp. 93-233. Geb. met=
=20
stofomslag. INDONESIE 1852
                               Offered for sale by Ardjoeno Books at=
 NLG25.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: My Voyage Around=20
the World / [by] A 16th Century
                               Florentine Merchant ; New York: Pantheon=20
Books/ Random House, 1964. 1st
                               prtg., VG/VG. DJ price-clipped. 8 1/4 x 5=20
1/2" 270 p, Chronicles a 16th c. voyage
                               from Seville to the Americas (Panama, Peru,=
=20
Mexico), then via galleon from
                               Acapulco to the, Philippines, later to Japan=
=20
& Goa, and ultimately returning to Lisbon.
                               Translated from the Italian by Herbert=20
Weinstock., Double map frontis.,
                               circumnavigation of globe Panama Mexico=20
Manila galleon Philippines Japan Goa
                               Peru chronicle 16th c.=20
travel   (UR#:MAIN003850I)  Offered for sale by Hyleana
                               Fine Books at US$35.00



                                   CARLETTI, Fr.: Reis om de wereld=20
(1594-1606). Vertaald en ingeleid door
                               J.A. Verhaart-Bodderij. ; 's Grav., (1965).=
=20
4to. Cloth. With many plates. 235 pp.
                               Offered for sale by Gert Jan Bestebreurtje=20
at NLG40.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: My Voyage Around=20
the World, Chronicles of a 16th
                               Century Florentine Merchant ; b/w map=20
Maritime NY (1964) chipping, edgewear
                               to dj, else VG/VG 5301   Offered for sale by=
=20
Ten Pound Island Book Co, ABAA at
                               US$15.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: Viaggi ; Firenze:=20
G. Barber=E0, Editore, 1878. In 48vo., 612
                               pp., r=FAst., intonso,   Offered for sale by=
=20
Librer=EDa Romano at US$20.00



                                   CARLETTI,FRANCESCO: MY VOYAGE AROUND THE=
=20
WORLD ;
                               PANTHEON,NY,1964, G/G,EX-LIB,LIB=20
POCKET,270PP, History HISTORY
                               (UR#:661)  Offered for sale by Randy's=20
BookScout at US$12.00



                                   CARLETTI,F.: MY VOYAGE AROUND THE WORLD=
=20
; N.Y.:
                               PANTHEON BOOKS, 1964. 1ST PRINTING, V.G.,=
 YES,
                               CIRCUMNAVIGATION OF GLOBE IN 16TH CENTURY,=20
DISCOVERY,
                               TRAVEL   (UR#:HOME000382I)  Offered for sale=
=20
by Fox Point Books at
                               US$27.50



                                   Carletti, Francesco, Weinstock, Herbert=
=20
--Translater: My Voyage Around the
                               World ; NY: Partheon Books, 1964. 1st,=20
Slight Discolor./2-sm tears to DJ, very
                               gooD, 16th Cent.Travel/Diary Travel 16th=20
Cent Adventure Diary/Journal 16th
                               cent.sea voy.   (UR#:HOME000004I)  Offered=20
for sale by Fox Point Books at
                               US$22.50



                                   Carletti, Sandro. : THE CATACOMBE=20
(catacomb) of ST CALLIXTUS. ;
                               Rome, Pontifical Commission of Sacred=20
Archaeology, light card covers, 42p, illsts,
                               maps. Handsome booklet with colour photos=20
and descriptive text. vg. [US price
                               includes economy airmail postage] 6222 tombs=
=20
religion catholic church christian saints
                               archaeology archeology catacombs cemeteries=
=20
underground monuments memorials
                               Offered for sale by Felicity Books at US$8.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: My Voyage Around=20
the World: The Chronicles of a
                               16th Century Florentine Merchant ; New York:=
=20
Pantheon Books, 1964. First
                               Printing, Hard Cover, Fine/Fine,=20
Travel   (UR#:4162)  Offered for sale by Pleasant
                               St. Books at US$20.00



                                   "Carletti, Francesco": "MY VOYAGE AROUND=
=20
THE WORLD - THE
                               CHRONICLES OF A 1" ; "Pantheon (Random=20
House) 1964" "1st edition" "HB"
                               "VG+/VG+ slight wear to DJ, translated by=20
Herbert Weinstock"
                               "exploration/Renaissance/navigation"=20
"history" 1060   Offered for sale by Book
                               Queen at US$15.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: My Voyage Around=20
The World ; Methuen London 1965;
                               vg/vg; (00120).   Offered for sale by=20
Cindy'sbooks at US$10.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco : : My Voyage Around=
=20
the World . The Chronicles of a
                               16th Century Florentine Merchant ; New=20
York:: Random House., 1964, First
                               Printing, xv, 270 pp. Double page "mappa=20
mundi." Octavo. HC...Half cloth in
                               dustjacket. Condition: VG (scant evidence of=
=20
neatly removed bookplate; Previous
                               owner's "from the library of" stamp; hinges=
=20
tight; text clean and very bright) in VG+ dj
                               (mild shelfwear; very tiny tears at spine=20
ends) in protective . Book ID # 8794
                               Offered for sale by Karakoram Books at=
 US$25.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: My Voyage Around=20
the World ; Pantheon, 1964. Hard
                               Cover, Fine/No Jacket, first printing, p.o.=
=20
bookplate on front pastedown, History
                               (UR#:05141)  Offered for sale by Roecks=20
Books at US$12.00



                                   Carletti, Vincenzo: THE CHALLENGE OF THE=
=20
WORLD: Photographic
                               atlas of Passionist Missions throught-out=20
the world. ; Clusone Italy: Cesare
                               Ferrari Pub., 1988. Ed. not stated, Folio 12=
=20
1/8", 184 pp, Fine, green boards with
                               gold titling, profusely illustrated with=20
color photo's, long ink gift inscription on front
                               end paper in a Very Good Plus dustwrapper=20
with light ripple to top edge of front
                               panel and light edge wear. A bright tight=20
clean hardcover copy., Non Fiction Religion
                               Passionist Missions=20
Missionarys   (UR#:BOOKS002979I)  Offered for sale by Alma
                               Koster's Books at US$20.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: MY VOYAGE AROUND=20
THE WORLD. THE
                               CHRONICLES OF A 16TH CENTURY FLORENTINE=20
MERCHANT. ;
                               New York:: Random House., 1964,. First=20
Printing,, Very good in lightly worn
                               dustjacket , Half cloth 8vo. xv, 270 pp.=20
Double page map; translated by Herbert
                               Weinstock. Panama, Peru, Philippines, Japan,=
=20
China. Stock# 077118., Sea Ships
                               Asia Europe Voyages   (UR#:S077118)  Offered=
=20
for sale by Parmer Books, ABAA
                               at US$35.00



                                   CARLETTI F.: My Voyage Around the World.=
=20
; A 16th Century Florentine
                               Merchant. (Translated by H. Weinstock).=20
Pantheon 1964 xv,270pp. (straight
                               translation, no index etc). Slit to spine=20
cloth appox 5cm. under clean but frayed d/w.
                               =A3   Offered for sale by Winghale Books at=
 =A318.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: MY VOYAGE AROUND=20
THE WORLD ; New York:
                               Pantheon, 1964. 1st, VG/--., 8vo., 270=20
pages, light shelfwear., Exploration & Travel
                                 (UR#:BOOKS001010I)  Offered for sale by=20
SeaOcean Book Berth, at US$12.50



                                   Carletti, Francesco. translated from the=
=20
Italian by Herbert Weinstock.: : My
                               Voyage around the World. ; London: Methuen,=
=20
1965. 1st edition thus. Carletti was
                               a 16th century Florentine trader, voyager=20
and chronicler. At the age of 21 he set out
                               with his father on what was intended to be a=
=20
faily short slave-trading voyage which
                               extended into an eight year journey and a=20
circumnavigation of the globe ! Octavo.
                               15pp, 270pp. Double spread map. Original=20
brown cloth, gilt. Ex-college library: usual
                               library markings, but overall a very good=20
clean copy. Order ref: 1972.   Offered for
                               sale by Robert Downie Fine Books at =A325.00



                                   CARLETTI, Francesco.: MY VOYAGE AROUND=20
THE WORLD (by ....),
                               A 16th Century Florentine Merchant. ;=20
London. 1965. Methuen. 1st UK Ed.
                               (translated from the Italian by Herbert=20
Weinstock). XVI, 270 PP with 1
                               mappemonde showing the track of Carletti.=20
Cloth cover, pict. dw. Excellent copy.
                               21.2 x 14. Francesco Carletti sailed from=20
Spain in 1594 towards the East Indies,
                               crossed the Panama Isthmus, sailed to Peru,=
=20
Mexico, Philippines, Japan, Macao up
                               to Goa. Returned in 1602 from Goa to=20
Middelburg (Netherlands). A captivating
                               story. Ref # 15609   Offered for sale by=20
Jean-Louis Boglio Maritime Books at
                               AUD70.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco.: MY VOYAGE AROUND=20
THE WORLD: THE
                               CHRONICLES OF A 16TH CENTURY FLORENTINE=20
MERCHANT . ;
                               New York: Pantheon, (1964)., First printing.=
=20
Blue boards with gilt lettering. Book is
                               near fine, name front e nd paper, in fine=20
d.j., General # 6 TRAVEL ADVENTURE
                               GENERAL   (UR#:aar04344)  Offered for sale=20
by Valley Books at US$25.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: My Voyage Around=20
the World; The Chronicles of a
                               16th Century Florentine Merchant ; NY:=20
Pantheon, 1964. 1st, VG+/VG, dj
                               edgeworn with some soiling, Italy florence=20
16th century history
                               (UR#:BOOKS004297I)  Offered for sale by=20
Books End at US$11.50



                                   Carletti, Francesco: MY VOYAGE AROUND=20
THE WORLD ; New York:
                               Pantheon, 1964. 1st, G/G. Prior owner's=20
intitials on ffep, bottom page edges stained.,
                               270 pages., Exploration &=20
Travel   (UR#:BOOKS001122I)  Offered for sale by
                               SeaOcean Book Berth, at US$15.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: MY VOYAGE AROUND=20
THE WORLD. ; Methuen &
                               Co, Ltd. 1965 1st Edition. Demy 8vo.=20
ppxv,270 + one map. A very good copy in
                               the dustwrapper.   Offered for sale by=20
Beaumont Travel Books at =A315.00



                                   Albertino Carletti: Che Cosa Mangiamo? ;=
=20
(C) Small red,white checkered
                               hardcover/white spine with black print. Pub.=
=20
by Rizzoli,Milan,1969. Cond.G. Some
                               soiling to back cover/a few light stains=20
inside.   Offered for sale by P.M. Book Shop
                               at US$5.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: My Voyage Around=20
the World: The Chronicles of a
                               16th Century Florentine Merchant ; New York:=
=20
Pantheon, 1964. First edition,
                               Cloth, One small bump to top edge of book,=20
else near fine., 270 pp. Dust jacket is
                               near fine. Out of print, European history=20
European history Italian history Exploration
                               Florence West Indies East=20
Indies   (UR#:BOOKS022749I)  Offered for sale by
                               Blake's Books: Fine Used Books for Scholars=
=20
at US$25.00



                                   CARLETTI, F.: Reis om de wereld=20
(1594-1606). ; Vert.& ingel.d.J.A.
                               Verhaart-Bodderij. Kruseman,1965. Geill.=20
Linnen/omslag. {strq: Renaissance
                               DutchText ItalianContext Travel}. Book:=20
K8-52-99. ** Maximum Discount NLG
                               3.00 **   Offered for sale by Straat=20
Antiquaren at NLG35.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: My Voyage Around=20
the World: The Chronicles of a
                               16th Century Florentine Merchant ; Pantheon,=
=20
1964. Very Good Hardcover in
                               Very Good Dustjacket. Price-clipped Very=20
Good dustjacket. Out of print. First
                               free-end page cut out. Travel.   Offered for=
=20
sale by Ithaca Books at US$12.00



                                   CARLETTI, Francesco. : My Voyage Around=
=20
the World. The Chronicles of
                               a 16th Century Florentine Merchant. ; New=20
York: Random House, (1964). First
                               edition. Cloth, xv, 270pp. A nice copy in=20
d/w. travel general travel, panama, peru,
                               philipines, japan, china 8289 C$50   Offered=
=20
for sale by David Mason Books at
                               US$37.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: MY VOYAGE AROUND=20
THE WORLD ; New York:
                               Pantheon Books, 1964. 1st edition, Hb,=20
Owner's (tidy) name on title page, else
                               vg/vg, 8vo, xv, 270 pp. The chronicles of a=
=20
16th century Florentine merchant,
                               translated by Herbert Weinstock., Maps,=20
Travel & Exploration Voyages Exploration
                               History   (UR#:BOOKS019273I)  Offered for=20
sale by GREENFIELD BOOKS
                               LTD. at US$25.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: My Voyage Around=20
the World: the Chronicle of a 16Th
                               Century Florentine Merchant ; Pantheon,=20
1964. 1st, VG/chipped DJ, Carletti's
                               recording of his voyages around the known=20
world, op, medieval history Travel
                               History SCA   (UR#:MAIN011783I)  Offered for=
=20
sale by Simmons & Simmons Fine
                               Books at US$15.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: My Voyage Around=20
the World ; NY:: Pantheon Books,
                               [1964]. 1st U. S., Very good + copy in very=
=20
good jacket., Drink ring on rear panel
                               of jacket., Nautical Nautical Maritime=20
History Travel Circumnavigation
                               (UR#:BOOKS009154I)  Offered for sale by=20
McAllister & Solomon Books at
                               US$25.00



                                   CARLETTI,Francesco,: My Voyage Around=20
the World: ; the chronicles of a
                               16th century Florentine merchant. 1964. dj=20
B15165 EUROPEAN HISTORY VG
                               Offered for sale by EDITIONS at US$17.50



                                   Carletti, Francesco: My Voyage Around=20
the World ; NY: 1964,. d/j, v.g,
                               History of Science   (UR#:ZB13949)  Offered=
=20
for sale by John T. Zubal, Inc. at
                               US$8.00



                                   CARLETTI,Francesco : My Voyage Around=20
the World. ; CARLETTI,
                               Francesco. My Voyage Around the World. 8vo,=
=20
cloth, d.w. N.Y., (1964). Journals
                               of a 16th century Italian merchant. Transl.=
=20
by Herbert Weinstock. , ECON
                               (UR#:G21754 )  Offered for sale by argosy=20
book store at US$27.50



                                   Carletti, Francesco) Weinstock, Herbert:=
=20
My Voyage Around the World: The
                               Chronicles of a 16th Century Florentine=20
Merchant ; NY: Pantheon, 1964. 1st,
                               1st, VG+, dj in mylar,=20
Italy/Travel/1500's   (UR#:MAIN009263I)  Offered for sale
                               by 84 Charing Cross Bookstore at US$20.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco: My Voyage Around=20
the World ; New York: Pantheon
                               Books, 1964. First Edition, Hard Cover, Very=
=20
Good+/Very Good+, review slip
                               inside. nice copy.,=20
Warehouse38   (UR#:whq2277)  Offered for sale by Wonder
                               Book and Video at US$20.00



                                   Carletti,Francesco. : Mt voyage around=20
the world. ; N.Y., 1965. XV,270 pp.
                               Cloth. KEYWORDS: Ethnography; NUMBER:=20
(#115463)   Offered for sale by
                               Antiquariaat A.Kok & Zn. at NLG65.00



                                   Carletti, Francesco.: RAZONAMIENTOS DE=20
MI VIAJE ALREDEDOR
                               DEL MUNDO (1594-1606). Estudio preliminar,=20
traducci=F3n y notas de
                               Francisca Perujo. Instituto de=20
Investigaciones Bibliogr=E1ficas/Biblioteca
                               Nacional de M=E9xico: Serie Fuentes, 1. ;=20
M=E9xico, UNAM, 1976 1, 281p.,
                               facsimile plates, bibl., index. First=20
Spanish-language edition with useful scholarly
                               apparatus. Italian edition: 1701.=20
20558   Offered for sale by Libros Latinos at
                               US$50.00
If you follow the link, you will see you can be linked through to the=
 vendors.

Cheers


-----------------------------
Henny  (Lee Hae Kang)

Feel free to visit
http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl
and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666)
In Korean
http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Mon Jun 19 13:08:38 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id NAA29031 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:08:38 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id NAA04184. Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:06:30 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id NAA04180 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:06:24 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for discovery
   id NAA01173. Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:06:24 +0200 (MET DST)
From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels)
Message-Id: <200006191106.NAA01173@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl>
Subject: [EXP] New Pages on Discoverers Web
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:06:23 +0200 (MET DST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: O

I have, at last, made another addition to my Discoverers Web site. I have
added biographies/travelogues on Matthijs Quast, William Penn and Nikolai
Przhevalski, and a history of the Dutch period on Taiwan.


-- 
Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644
telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile)
http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html

A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze.
						- Maria Montessori

From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Mon Jun 19 15:27:39 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id PAA07225 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:27:39 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id PAA04400. Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:27:26 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id PAA04396 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:27:20 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id PAA12214 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:27:19 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from hola ([212.59.207.192]) by ssmtp04.melange.isp
          (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FWEL8W01.S0A for
          <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:24:32 +0200 
Message-ID: <001201bfd9f1$5d7a38e0$c0cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es>
From: "j. anaya" <anay@arrakis.es>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Subject: [EXP] Celts in Iceland ?
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:22:05 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

Did Pytheas arrive to Iceland?
All the data say that yes, less the one:  then there were 
inhabitants in Iceland, and this is impossible...
 They  showed to Pytheas the place where the sun rests during the 
night...

But, a hypothesis:
in the same years in that Pytheas did the  trip, 350 BC,
it was taking place a real  explosion of travels by sea,  toward 
the north, of the Celtiberians (= celts of Iberia)
 that arrived in certain quantity to Ireland.
 Maybe some ships of these Celtiberians could arrive to Iceland.


Jose Anaya     anay@arrakis.es


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Mon Jun 19 17:11:35 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id RAA14166 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:11:35 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id RAA04642. Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:11:13 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id RAA04638 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:11:08 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id RAA14150 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:11:06 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101])
	by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA19931
	for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:10:22 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from eto.ericsson.se (ttt05 [131.160.247.165])
	by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24845
	for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:11:04 +0200 (MET DST)
Message-ID: <394E3808.76AD29CE@eto.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:11:04 +0200
From: Geir Odden <etogod@ericsson.no>
Organization: ETO
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts in Iceland ?
References: <001201bfd9f1$5d7a38e0$c0cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

"j. anaya" wrote:

> Did Pytheas arrive to Iceland?
> All the data say that yes, less the one:  then there were
> inhabitants in Iceland, and this is impossible...
>  They  showed to Pytheas the place where the sun rests during the
> night...

I am pretty sure no traces of human activity in Iceland before 800 AD
has been found.
In Svalbard there has been some contravention with some stone tools
found there. Some thinks they were brought to Svalbard by humans,
other thinks they came to Svalbard by the ice. The stone tools are
preserved at the Tromsø museum.
Re: http://prod.library.utoronto.ca/spanishflu/location.html

History of Iceland.
http://www.south.is/history.html

The Thule inhabited with peoples was most likely Norway ?

Geir Odden


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Mon Jun 19 18:55:27 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id SAA18649 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:55:27 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id SAA04816. Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:55:04 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id SAA04812 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:54:58 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id SAA13218 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:54:56 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from paulstoy (ip-64-38-140-73.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.73])
	by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id JAA19072
	for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:54:54 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <001001bfda0f$82c81ae0$498c2640@paulstoy>
From: "Paul D. Buell" <pbuell@seanet.com>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Subject: [EXP] Celts in Iceland
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:56:57 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFD9D4.B4771360"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFD9D4.B4771360
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Problem is that there is no evidence of Celts (papar, or any others) in =
Iceland until
much later. The only evidence of earlier contacts, if they were not =
brought in by later
settlers, are 5 Roman coins, found at various spots, mostly 3rd century. =
There have been
reports of finds of older (well pre-Landnama) strata in the =
Vestmannaeyjar at a
cave site but nothing has been demonstrated definitively. Ergo, based on =
the existing
evidence, Iceland was uninhabited until the 8th century or so, perhaps =
the end of the 7th.=20

Paul D. Buell


------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFD9D4.B4771360
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3017.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Problem is that there is no evidence of Celts (papar, or any =
others) in=20
Iceland until<BR>much later. The only evidence of earlier contacts, if =
they were=20
not brought in by later<BR>settlers, are 5&nbsp;Roman coins, found at =
various=20
spots, mostly 3rd century. There have been<BR>reports of finds of older =
(well=20
pre-Landnama) strata in the Vestmannaeyjar at a<BR>cave site but nothing =
has=20
been demonstrated definitively. Ergo, based on the existing</DIV>
<DIV>evidence, Iceland was uninhabited until the 8th century or so, =
perhaps the=20
end of the 7th. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Paul D. Buell<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFD9D4.B4771360--


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Tue Jun 20 00:31:17 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id AAA04510 (ESMTP). Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:31:16 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id AAA05802. Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:30:49 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id AAA05798 (ESMTP). Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:30:43 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id AAA14573 (ESMTP). Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:30:41 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from paulstoy (ip-64-38-140-80.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.80])
	by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA11729
	for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:30:40 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <000901bfda3e$6b760f30$508c2640@paulstoy>
From: "Paul D. Buell" <pbuell@seanet.com>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
References: <001201bfd9f1$5d7a38e0$c0cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> <394E87FF.99C8D331@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Pytheas in Iceland ?
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:33:40 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFDA03.BE6154B0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFDA03.BE6154B0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ray: minor correction, there are now 5 Roman coins known for Iceland, =
the last two discovered separately in the last 10 years or so. The =
discoveries were written up in News of Iceland and Icelandic Review a =
few years back. My older copies of these have gotten away from me so I =
cannot cite the exact issue. Paul D. Buell

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFDA03.BE6154B0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3017.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ray: minor correction, there are now 5 Roman coins =
known for=20
Iceland, the last two discovered separately in the last 10 years or so. =
The=20
discoveries were written up in News of Iceland and Icelandic Review a =
few years=20
back. My older copies of these have gotten away from me so I cannot cite =
the=20
exact issue. Paul D. Buell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BFDA03.BE6154B0--


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Mon Jun 19 22:55:59 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id WAA29303 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:55:59 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id WAA05367. Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:55:08 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id WAA05363 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:55:04 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id WAA29284 (SMTP). Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:55:02 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: (qmail 72997 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2000 20:55:01 -0000
Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131)
  by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 19 Jun 2000 20:55:01 -0000
Message-ID: <394E87FF.99C8D331@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:52:15 +0100
From: Ray Howgego <howgego@easynet.co.uk>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Subject: [EXP] Re: Pytheas in Iceland ?
References: <001201bfd9f1$5d7a38e0$c0cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

Pytheas:

Pytheas never claimed to have visited Iceland, he was simply told of the
existence of a country ("Thule") six days' sailing to the north of
Britain.  One will never know if this was Norway or Iceland.

However, there is little doubt that he circumnavigated Britain.  He
noted the manners and customs of the inhabitants, the use of barns for
threshing, the fermentation of liquors made from corn and honey, and the
steady disappearance of various types of grain during his advancement
northwards.

It must be appreciated that the only references to Pytheas are in the
works of Strabo (44 BC - 21 AD), and to a lesser extent in Pliny (46-79
AD).  And even they were quoting from the "Histories" of Polybius
(201-120 BC).  Unfortunately, of the 40 books of Polybius, only five
still exist, and the one that mentions Pytheas is lost.  It can be
inferred from Strabo, however, that the original book by Pytheas was
more of a geography than a travel narrative.  The Greeks, apparently,
did not hold Pytheas in high regard.  The date of Pytheas' voyage is, of
course, unknown, but cannot be later than 285 BC.  So much has been
written about Pytheas, based on very little information, so be careful !

Coins in Iceland:

Three small copper Roman coins (dating from between 270 and 305 AD) were
discovered near the farm of Bragdhavellir on the south-east coast of
Iceland, although exactly how they arrived there has been hotly debated.

Bibliography (Roman coins in Iceland):
Shetelig, Haakon: Roman coins found in Iceland (in Antiquity, 23, 161-3,
Gloucester 1951).
Eldjarn, Kristjan: Fund af Romerske Monter pa Island (in Nordisk
Numismatisk Arsskrift, Oslo 1949).

Bibliography (Pytheas):
The Geography of Strabo.  Trans. by Horace Leonard Jones (Loeb, London &
New York 1917-32; Harvard University 1931-82 [various reprint dates], 8
vols).
Pliny the Elder: Natural History (trans. by J, Bostock & H.T. Riley,
London 1857; trans. by H. Rackham et al., Loeb ser., 1938-52, 10 vols;
reprinted by Harvard University, various dates to present; trans.
[selections] by John F. Healy, Harmondsworth 1991).
Polybius: The Histories (trans. by W.R. Paton, Loeb series, London and
New York 1922; the chief editions are by Ernesti (1763-64),
Schweighauser (1793), Bekker (1844), Buttner-Wobst (1889-1905) and
Hultsch (1867-71)).
Hawkes, C.F.C.: Pytheas: Europe and the Greek explorers (Oxford 1977).
Bugge, Alexander: Den norske sjofarts historie (Oslo 1923).
Pytheas le Massaliete: Fragments (ed. by Arvedson, Uppsala 1824; ed. by
Fuhr, De Pythea massiliensi, Darmstadt 1835).
Lallemand, Ferdinand: Journal de bord de Pytheas de Marseille (Paris
1956, 1974; Marseille, n.d.). 
Bougainville: Vie et voyages de Pythéas de Marseille (Paris 1753).
Lelewel: Pythéas de Marseille et le géographie de son temps (1836).
Masson, P.: Le "Poumon Marin" de Pythéas (1922).
Damsté: Pythéas (Utrecht 1917).
Broche, Gaston: Pythéas le Massaliote (These 1935).
Cary, M. & Warmington, E.H.: The ancient explorers (London 1929).
Bunbury, Edward H.: History of ancient geography (London 1883).
Stefansson, V.: Ultima Thule (New York 1942).
Berger, Hugo: Geschichte der wissenschaftlichen Erdkunde der Griechen
(Leipzig 1903).
Fuhr,  : De Pythea massiliensi (Darmstadt 1835).
Ukert,  : Geographie der Griechen und Romer.
Lewis, George C.: Historical survey of the astronomy of the ancients
(London 1862).
Markham, Clements R.: Pytheas, the discoverer of Britain (in
Geographical Journal, June 1893).
Tozer, H.F.: History of ancient geography (Cambridge 1897).
Hattersley Smith, G.: The place name Thule (in Mariner's Mirror, 72.1,
1986).
Whitaker, I.: The problem of Pytheas' Thule (in Classical Journal 77,
1982).
Hyde, W.W.: Ancient Greek mariners (London 1947).

From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Fri Jun 23 10:23:44 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id KAA16630 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:23:44 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id KAA16701. Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:21:49 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id KAA16697 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:21:43 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for discovery
   id KAA10604. Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:21:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels)
Message-Id: <200006230821.KAA10604@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl>
Subject: [EXP] Program Finalized - SHD Meeting October 2000
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:21:42 +0200 (MET DST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

The following message was originally refused because it came from a
non-subscribed address. The sender's address has now been added to the
list of allowed posters.

Your list manager,
Andre Engels

----- Forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl -----

From: "Tom Sander" <shd2000dc@hotmail.com>
Subject: Program Finalized - SHD Meeting October 2000
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:04:21 EDT


The Society for the History of Discoveries (SHD)will hold its annual meeting 
in Washington D.C. from October 12-15, 2000.  The recently finalized program 
for the meeting sessions may be found at:
http://www.sochistdisc.org/washington_program.htm

Additional information about the annual meeting, including a Welcome, the 
Program, Registration Form, Optional Tours, Exhibitions in Washington DC and 
area, Tourism in Washington DC and vicinity, Accommodations Information, 
Hotel Information Sheet, and Hotel Reservation Form may be found at:  
http://www.sochistdisc.org/annual-meeting.htm

Further information about the Society for the History of Discoveries is 
available at the Society's home page:  http://www.sochistdisc.org

*****************************
Thomas Sander
SHD 2000
P.O. Box 10793
Burke, VA  22009-0793 USA


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


----- End of forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl -----

-- 
Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644
telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile)
http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html

A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze.
						- Maria Montessori

From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Fri Jun 23 15:31:39 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id PAA03457 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:31:39 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id PAA17263. Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:30:05 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id PAA17259 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:30:00 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id PAA04717 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:29:58 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from 209-122-203-105.s359.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([209.122.203.105] helo=sanderva)
	by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #3)
	id 135TWv-0002Ik-00; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:29:57 -0400
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.20000623093032.006b75b4@pop.erols.com>
X-Sender: sanderva@pop.erols.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) -- [Cornell Modified]
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:30:32 -0400
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
From: Jeanne & Tom Sander <sanderva@erols.com>
Subject: [EXP] Program Finalized - SHD Meeting October 2000
Cc: shd2000dc@hotmail.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

The Society for the History of Discoveries (SHD) will hold its annual meeting 
in Washington D.C. from October 12-15, 2000.  The recently finalized program 
for the meeting sessions may be found at:
http://www.sochistdisc.org/washington_program.htm

Additional information about the annual meeting, including a Welcome, the 
Program, Registration Form, Optional Tours, Exhibitions in Washington DC and 
area, Tourism in Washington DC and vicinity, Accommodations Information, 
Hotel Information Sheet, and Hotel Reservation Form may be found at:  
http://www.sochistdisc.org/annual-meeting.htm

Further information about the Society for the History of Discoveries is 
available at the Society's home page:  http://www.sochistdisc.org

*****************************
Thomas Sander
SHD 2000
P.O. Box 10793
Burke, VA  22009-0793 USA

SHD2000 e-mail addres: shd2000dc@hotmail.com

From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Fri Jun 23 16:00:50 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id QAA04649 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:00:50 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id PAA17303. Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:59:23 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id PAA17299 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:59:17 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from ewwolf@cap1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.10] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id PAA04536 (SMTP). Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:59:15 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: (from ewwolf@localhost) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id KAA21214; Fri, 23 Jun 1972 10:04:15 -0400
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1972 10:04:15 -0400
Message-Id: <197206231404.KAA21214@cap1.CapAccess.org>
From: ewwolf@CapAccess.org (Eric W. Wolf)
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Subject: [EXP] SHD
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO



The Society for the History of Discoveries (SHD)will hold its annual meeting 
at the Library of Congress in Washington D.C. October 12-15, 2000. The complete 
program for the meeting can now be found at:

http://www.sochistdisc.org

Included are the technical program, optional tours, exhibitions and tourism in 
the Washington DC area, and hotel information. Registration and hotel 
reservation forms are also provided, as is membership and other information 
about the Society.



From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Sat Jun 24 11:14:32 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id LAA21078 (ESMTP). Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:14:32 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id LAA18075. Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:12:47 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id LAA18071 (ESMTP). Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:12:41 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id LAA21004 (ESMTP). Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:12:38 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph ([210.23.234.90])
	by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01230
	for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:12:27 +0800 (PHT)
Received: from default ([210.23.210.152])
        by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP
        id RAA21963 for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:12:27 +0800 (PHT)
Message-ID: <000201bfde83$6aec0d00$98d217d2@default>
From: "vicente c. de jesus" <vicdej@pacific.net.ph>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
References: <200006191106.NAA01173@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl>
Subject: Re: [EXP] New Pages on Discoverers Web
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:17:47 +0800
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO


----- Original Message -----
From: Andre Engels <engels@win.tue.nl>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 7:06 PM
Subject: [EXP] New Pages on Discoverers Web


I have, at last, made another addition to my Discoverers Web site. I have
added biographies/travelogues on Matthijs Quast, William Penn and Nikolai
Przhevalski, and a history of the Dutch period on Taiwan.


--
Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644
telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile)
http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html

A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze.
- Maria Montessori
Warm congratulations! More power.




From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Tue Jun 27 03:33:32 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id DAA24305 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jun 2000 03:33:32 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id DAA21527. Tue, 27 Jun 2000 03:30:43 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id DAA21523 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jun 2000 03:30:36 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id DAA17572 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jun 2000 03:30:35 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from hola ([195.5.75.83]) by ssmtp01.melange.isp
          (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FWSHE505.U3R for
          <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 03:27:41 +0200 
Message-ID: <000c01bfdfd6$8c6cd000$534b05c3@hola.arrakis.es>
From: "j. anaya" <anay@arrakis.es>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Subject: [EXP] Celts in America ?
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 03:25:14 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

in a book of Thomas Cahill (1995)  entitled 
"How the Irish Saved Civilization"
it says: (speaking of Iberics celts...)

"Rests of buildings of these iberic- celts could be
in places so far as New Hampshire...and then,
the celts could be  the first in to arrive to Americas..."

(obviously this is pure fantasy...like that the
tribe of the sons of the goddess Dana -
Tuatha De Danann , they came down  of the sky or the  heavens)
as  common extraterrestrials...
but , do you know enything of this thing... Thank you

Jose Anaya   anay@arrakis.es 



From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Tue Jun 27 08:56:41 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id IAA04955 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:56:41 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id IAA21898. Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:56:23 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id IAA21894 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:56:18 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from f89.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.89] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id IAA04948 (SMTP). Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:56:16 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: (qmail 64244 invoked by uid 0); 27 Jun 2000 06:55:45 -0000
Message-ID: <20000627065545.64243.qmail@hotmail.com>
Received: from 207.109.22.73 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP;
	Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:55:45 PDT
X-Originating-IP: [207.109.22.73]
From: "michael zalar" <m_zalar@hotmail.com>
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts in America ?
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:55:45 PDT
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO




>From: "j. anaya" <anay@arrakis.es>
>in a book of Thomas Cahill (1995)  entitled
>"How the Irish Saved Civilization"
>it says: (speaking of Iberics celts...)
>
>"Rests of buildings of these iberic- celts could be
>in places so far as New Hampshire...and then,
>the celts could be  the first in to arrive to Americas..."
>
>(obviously this is pure fantasy...like that the
>tribe of the sons of the goddess Dana -
>Tuatha De Danann , they came down  of the sky or the  heavens)
>as  common extraterrestrials...
>but , do you know enything of this thing... Thank you
>

While the Tuatha certainly were given fantastic powers, they may not have 
been creatures of pure fantasy, but representitive of an actual invasion by 
Laiginian people from Normandy about 300 BC.  
miso.wwa.com/~naughton/nau_hist/naughton.html  contains a brief summary of 
this theory.



Michael A. Zalar
179 E. Thompson Ave #1
West St. Paul, MN 55118

651-457-8860
m_zalar@hotmail.com

www.krs1362.cjb.net

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Tue Jun 27 16:40:51 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id QAA01408 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:40:51 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id QAA23043. Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:40:08 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id QAA23039 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:40:03 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id QAA20569 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:40:02 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from hola ([212.59.205.238]) by ssmtp01.melange.isp
          (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FWTHXZ00.14E for
          <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:37:11 +0200 
Message-ID: <000b01bfe044$d684f960$eecd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es>
From: "j. anaya" <anay@arrakis.es>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Subject: RE: [EXP] Celts in America ?
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:34:43 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO


-----Mensaje original-----
De: michael zalar <m_zalar@hotmail.com>
Para: discovery@win.tue.nl <discovery@win.tue.nl>
Fecha: martes, 27 de junio de 2000 9:26
Asunto: Re: [EXP] Celts in America ?


|
|
|
|>From: "j. anaya" <anay@arrakis.es>
|>in a book of Thomas Cahill (1995)  entitled
|>"How the Irish Saved Civilization"
|>it says: (speaking of Iberics celts...)
|>
|>"Rests of buildings of these iberic- celts could be
|>in places so far as New Hampshire...and then,
|>the celts could be  the first in to arrive to Americas..."
|>
|>(obviously this is pure fantasy...like that the
|>tribe of the sons of the goddess Dana -
|>Tuatha De Danann , they came down  of the sky or the  heavens)
|>as  common extraterrestrials...
|>but , do you know enything of this thing... Thank you
|>
|
|While the Tuatha certainly were given fantastic powers, they may not have
|been creatures of pure fantasy, but representitive of an actual invasion
by
|Laiginian people from Normandy about 300 BC.
   http://miso.wwa.com/~naughton/nau_hist/naughton.html  contains a brief
summary of
|this theory.
|
|
|
|Michael A. Zalar
|179 E. Thompson Ave #1
|West St. Paul, MN 55118
|
|651-457-8860
|m_zalar@hotmail.com
|
|www.krs1362.cjb.net
|
|________________________________________________________________________
|Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
|


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Tue Jun 27 18:12:12 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id SAA06513 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:12:11 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id SAA23255. Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:11:45 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id SAA23251 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:11:40 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id SAA20983 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:11:38 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from paulstoy (ip-64-38-140-13.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.13])
	by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id JAA10788
	for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:11:36 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <000a01bfe052$cc1854f0$0d8c2640@paulstoy>
From: "Paul D. Buell" <pbuell@seanet.com>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
References: <000b01bfe044$d684f960$eecd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es>
Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts in America ?
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:14:39 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

Adding grist to the mill. Look at Carl Sauer's Northern Mists where an
interesting (but wrong, I think) theory about Celtic metal working and the
Norse finds in Nova Scotia. One of the rare cases where Sauer was wrong,
mostly because he did not realize who were likely to be the smithy slaves of
the Norse. Paul D. Buell


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Wed Jun 28 10:07:36 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id KAA16742 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:07:36 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id KAA24851. Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:04:37 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id KAA24847 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:04:31 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from mailhost.capecod.net [204.255.214.21] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id KAA24217 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:04:30 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from nmgood (cbrg1036.capecod.net [63.211.188.20])
	by mailhost.capecod.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) with SMTP id EAA19921
	for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:04:14 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: mailhost.capecod.net: Host cbrg1036.capecod.net [63.211.188.20] claimed to be nmgood
Message-ID: <002201bfe0d7$ca9c61e0$14bcd33f@nmgood>
From: "Neil Good" <nmg@capecod.net>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
References: <000b01bfe044$d684f960$eecd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> <000a01bfe052$cc1854f0$0d8c2640@paulstoy>
Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts, Sauer and Vinland  
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:05:32 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO


> Adding grist to the mill. Look at Carl Sauer's Northern Mists where an
> interesting (but wrong, I think) theory about Celtic metal working and the
> Norse finds in Nova Scotia. One of the rare cases where Sauer was wrong,
> mostly because he did not realize who were likely to be the smithy slaves
 of the Norse.      Paul D. Buell
>


I think you mean "..the Norse finds in Newfoundland," not Nova Scotia.
His theory about the identity of the people who settled down at L'Anse
aux Meadows (maybe the Irish?) may not be popular, but it sure is thought
provoking.

Not everyone may be aware of just who Carl Sauer was, but they should be.  I
put together the following excerpts (heavy clipping) from an essay about
Sauer and his career written by James J. Parsons, professor of Geography at
the University of California, Berkeley.  It first appeared in Geographical
Review, Vol. 66, No. 1, January 1976.  I could send the complete article to
anyone interested.

For another good source of information on Sauer see "Carl O. Sauer: a
Tribute," Martin Kenzer (ed.), Association of Pacific Coast Geographers,
Corvallis, OR.

And of course there are always links on the WWW.  Here are just three.

http://www.colorado.edu/geography/giw//sauer-co/sauer-co.html
http://web.missouri.edu/~c562585/classics.htm
http://geography.ou.edu/research/paper.html

I believe it is important for everyone to keep in mind that Sauer, in his
book "Northern Mists," unequivocally endorsed the theroy that Vinland was in
southern New England.  In the introduction to his last book, "Seventeenth
Century North America,"  he wrote;

"Vinland was placed in southern New England by early, well informed
students. Later, others located it in northern Newfoundland, inferring
either a climate much milder than at present or that vin did not signify
grapes. Reviewing what the sagas said of plants, animals, and people, I
found additional evidence in support of Vinland as having been in southern
New England, the climate as at present."

Neil Good
nmg@capecod.net
-------------------------------------------


Carl Ortwin Sauer 1889-1975
By James J. Parsons
Geographical Review, Vol 66, No. 1 Jan. 1976. p. 83-89
[excerpts]

WHEN Carl Ortwin Sauer passed away in Berkeley, California, on July 18,
1975, not only American geography but also the larger world of scholarship
and humane letters lost a major spokesman and critic. His extensive writings
decisively influenced the direction of academic geography and had a
substantial impact on the historical, biological, and social sciences. Even
in his lifetime he achieved the status of a legend...

"Mr. Sauer," as he was addressed even by intimate friends and associates,
was born of German ancestry in Warrenton, Missouri, on December 24, 1889. He
recently observed with satisfaction, and with the sure historical sense
which characterized all his work, that this took him "halfway back to Lewis
and Clark."

"His predilection was for rural life and simple folk, in whose wisdom he put
great store. He never completely lost his suspicion of "the sophistries of
the city fellers," although throughout his professional career he opted to
live among them, within walking distance of his campus office.

"As a boy he had been sent to study for three years in southern Germany. He
graduated in 1908 from Warrenton's now defunct Central Wesleyan College,
where his father was a teacher. After briefly studying geology at
Northwestern University he enrolled at the University of Chicago, already
one of the country's most exciting intellectual centers. A new graduate
geography program had been established at Chicago under the physiographer
Rollin D. Salisbury, for whom Sauer was to retain throughout his life
enormous admiration and affection...

"For thirty-one years Sauer was chairman of the Berkeley Department of
Geography. He stepped down in 1954, three years before his retirement. In
this period he shaped what was perhaps the most distinctive school of
geography in the country...

"After his retirement Sauer continued and even intensified his scholarly
productivity. He accepted several short-term lecturing appointments at
places where he knew that the atmosphere would be relaxed and congenial,
usually at institutions where his former students were to be found. He also
traveled frequently to Europe, where he came to take a special interest in
the status of academic geography.

"He was widely honored during his lifetime...  In 1974 he received a Special
Award from the Association of American Geographers for "a lifetime of
exceptional achievement as a scholar of geography." The American
Philosophical Society elected him to membership. He was awarded the American
Geographical Society's Daly Medal in 1940 and later the Vega Medal of the
Swedish Society for Anthropology and Geography, the Humboldt Medal of the
Berlin Geographical Society, and, a month before his death, the Victoria
Medal of the Royal Geographical Society....

"Sauer had something akin to a universal mind, and he could converse
engagingly and in depth on an astonishing range of subjects. Widely read, he
had the rare capacity of almost total recall and a sometimes disquieting
ability to ask critical questions, to put a new twist on what was known.  He
worked totally without the props so commonly taken for granted by modern
scholars. He used no research assistants, no duplicating machines, tapes, or
calculators, and except in the early years no photography. His work was all
his own, and he left an office piled with notebooks filled with his small,
fine handwriting-field notes, outlines of papers and lectures, long extracts
from archival documents from Mexico and Spain, reflecting his lifetime
interest in Mesoamerica and the Southwest...

"He took full advantage of the extremely wide field that geography
comprehends...  He did not like what he saw as a consequence of
industrialization, urbanization, the expansion of colonialism, the
accelerating rate of population growth, and the toll on raw materials that
economic development entailed, and he said so...  In the last years he
became increasingly pessimistic about the future. The human creature seemed
to him to be reordering the earth, its plants and animals, its resources, to
suit himself and without regard for the consequences. As early as 1938 he
spoke out loudly and clearly on the inevitable consequences of continuing
resource depletion...

"Modern ecologists tended to see him as something of a prophet. A month
before his death, on the occasion of receiving the Victoria Medal, he wrote,

"'Civilization in our time has developed a technological dominance that has
changed the world and is impoverishing it. It has made an economy based on
producing and consuming more and more. We are committed to growth and
propose to find our way out of our difficulties bv more technology.
Biologists are well aware of the limited world. Geographers must not forget
it'"

"Sauer was especially critical of the heavy hand of central bureaucracies.
It was an article of faith with him that self-help is best, that communities
should develop their own cultural options as to what surroundings they wish
to live in.  American overseas development programs especially troubled him,
for he saw them as helping to snuff out the cultural diversity that he
prized....

"In his early days with the Michigan Land Economic Survey and later, during
the Depression, as consultant to the newly established Soil Conservation
Service, he was involved directly with matters of resource utilization and
public policy, a concern he returned to time and again. It was most
effectively expressed in the Wenner-Gren symposium at Princeton in 1955,
which he organized with the assistance of William L. Thomas, Jr. He liked to
call it the "Marsh Festival" after George Perkins Marsh, the
nineteenth-century Vermont diplomat who had early pointed a finger at the
profligate waste of the earth's resources.  The conference proceedings,
published as "Man's Role in Changing the Face of the Earth" (edited by
William L. Thomas, Jr.; University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1956), has
been called a kind of "Silent Spring" of the then incipient environmental
movement...

"From his early Mexican work Sauer developed a growing interest in the
antiquity of man's entry into the Americas, which he judged to be much
earlier than conventional archaeology would then admit. As has happened so
many times, subsequent developments have borne out his "hunch." His
continuing concern for early man was directly related to his interest in
climatic change, in the eustatic lowering of sea level in the Pleistocene,
in marine terraces and their relationships to early human habitats. He early
and persistently pointed to the antiquity of fire as a human tool, arguing
that no human groups could have entered the New World without it. The
modification of vegetation cover by burning he saw as a continuous process
covering the entire history of human presence on the earth, beginning in the
volcanic zone of the African rift valleys. He argued that most, if not all,
grasslands were the product of fires, whether natural or man-set, and,
although the matter is still in dispute, he found powerful allies among
ecologists...

"His thesis that seashore and streamside would have provided the protein
base necessary for the earliest sedentary populations and that such
fisherfolk were probably responsible for the original domestication of
plants has found increasing support. In 1952 he summarized his thinking in
the Bowman Memorial Lectures at the American Geographical Society, published
as "Agricultural Origins and Dispersals" (American Geographical Society, New
York, 1952; reissued, with additions, as "Seeds, Spades, Hearths, and
Herds,"by the M.I.T. Press, Cambridge, Mass., and London, 1972). One of the
most venturesome speculations in this seminal volume, suggesting the origins
of agriculture in Southeast Asia, appears to be strikingly confirmed by
recent archaeological research.

"The history of exploration and discovery attracted his recurrent attention,
particularly the manner and time of the coming of Europeans to the New World
and their perception of native American society and subsistence. It began
with the classic account of Coronado's peregrinations, "The Road to Cíbola"
(Ibero-Americana, Vol. 3, 1932), and was the theme of three other
book-length studies written during his retirement years, "The Early Spanish
Main" (1966), "Northern Mists" (1968), and "Sixteenth Century North America"
(1971; all three published by the University of California Press, Berkeley
and Los Angeles). A fourth book, tentatively entitled "Seventeenth Century
North America," was left in manuscript form and is being published
posthumously.  Each of these works involved the mining of sources, rich and
unutilized, in order to reconstruct past
environments, native life, and the impact of European intrusions on them...

"He had remarkable abilities of observation and identification, and his
interpretation of early documents in his study of New World lands and
peoples as first seen by Europeans was much enriched by [his] field
experiences...

"Sauer saw geography as a vast and durable field of substantive inquiry, but
the "humane" geography he championed was a historical geography of people
and place in which landscape aesthetics held an important position. He
warned repeatedly that pseudoaccuracy could be more misleading than
vagueness and that even accurately measured quantities were not necessarily
significant.  Too often, he complained, modern geographers were mistaking
techniques for problems...

"The reach and range of Sauer's contacts often brought him into closer touch
with scholars in other fields than with geographers. He attended
professional meetings only when he felt he had a bombshell to drop or when
he was an invited or obligated speaker, as when he was president (New
Orleans, 1940) and honorary president (Montreal, 1955) of the Association of
American Geographers. His presidential addresses, "Foreword to Historical
Geography" and "The Education of a Geographer," were memorable statements of
his personal philosophy of geography as a humane discipline...

"Sauer's insistence on writing clearly and compactly, his reflectiveness and
his realism, and perhaps his interest in pre-Columbian contacts between the
Old World and the New World led Olson to urge young writers to read his
works....

"He carried on a broad and free-ranging correspondence with people in
diverse fields. He was especially attracted to those who were willing to
speculate, to challenge the entrenched thinking of "the Brahmans"...

"Sauer had an undeserved reputation for being difficult to approach, "the
Great God West of the Sierra,'' as geographers who did not know him
occasionally whispered, apparently in a combination of grudging respect and
disparagement. In reality he was a warm and friendly man, gentle,
understanding, easy to talk with, who served in the role of pater familias
to many...

"Sauer emphasized observation as an important and inexplicably neglected
component of geography. He liked to send students into the field, with goals
sometimes not yet clearly defined, "to see what you can make of it,"

"Geography, he often said, is above all in need of inquiring minds, students
for whom the landscape raises questions, who enjoy field study and maps.
Most of all he urged the historical view, which for him meant reaching back
to the very beginning of humankind. "A peculiarity of our American
geographic tradition," he lamented in 1941, "has been its lack of interest
in historical processes and sequences, even their outright rejection." More
than any other group in geography, Carl Sauer and his students moved to
correct this situation.

JAMES J. PARSONS













From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Wed Jun 28 16:07:15 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id QAA06062 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:07:14 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id QAA25238. Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:06:47 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id QAA25234 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:06:41 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id QAA06028 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:06:37 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from paulstoy (ip-64-38-140-30.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.30])
	by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA29581
	for <discovery@win.tue.nl>; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:06:35 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <000e01bfe10a$7f9b4cf0$1e8c2640@paulstoy>
From: "Paul D. Buell" <pbuell@seanet.com>
To: <discovery@win.tue.nl>
References: <000b01bfe044$d684f960$eecd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> <000a01bfe052$cc1854f0$0d8c2640@paulstoy> <002201bfe0d7$ca9c61e0$14bcd33f@nmgood>
Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts, Sauer and Vinland  
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:09:38 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

I can only add to Neil Good's posting that when you see editions of Sauer's
works in used book stores (almost all are out of print), buy them, even if
you don't have time to read them now. You will need them later.

Sauer is politically incorrect today because, among other things, he did not
see Native Americans as living in "completely harmony" with nature and sees
all humans as destroying the environment to some degree. Many environmental
utopianists don't want to hear that but Sauer well documents his points.

Yes, Newfoundland not Nova Scotia.

Paul D. Buell


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Wed Jun 28 17:32:53 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id RAA10400 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:32:52 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id RAA25373. Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:32:32 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id RAA25369 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:32:26 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from [209.185.20.139] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id RAA10372 (SMTP). Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:32:23 +0200 (MET DST)
Message-Id: <200006281532.RAA10372@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
Received: (qmail 28248 invoked by alias); Received: from unknown (HELO mp7) (206.79.140.187) by qmail9.visto.com with SMTP; 28 Jun 2000 08:32:33 -0700
From: "George & Dana Brown" <brianshouse@visto.com>
Subject: [EXP] Sultan's Pool
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:32:18 -0700
X-Mailer: Visto
To: discovery@win.tue.nl
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Visto Server
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

Dear Listmembers,

The following is a copy of a letter subject "Sultan's Pool" which you may=
 find=20
interesting:

Yes, Jonathan, the only thing under the traditional mount whereon the Dom=
e of=20
the Rock and the al-Aqsa Mosques stand is trash including the remainder o=
f=20
ruins from Hadrian=92s pagan temple.  Note: Helena apparently appropriate=
d=20
materials from Hadrian=92s structures when building her Church of the Hol=
y=20
Sepulchre and her Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem.  Thus, there are n=
o=20
buildings or mount shown in the traditional mount area when you examine t=
he=20
Madaba Map dated c. 562 AD.  Even the Roman Gate beneath the traditional =
East=20
Gate is visible on that Map.  So, the traditional mount obviously did not=
 exist=20
in the days of the Romans until Bar Kochba misled Hadrian.  No remains of=
 the=20
three earlier Temples are beneath that site as they were built elsewhere.

The ruins of the historic Temple of Herod should be found under the mound=
 just=20
East of the Damascus Gate (that=92s the third Temple).  The second Temple=
 was=20
built midway down the Western Hill.  And the Solomonic Temple was built W=
est of=20
the Hinnom.   See =93Temple Locations=94 diagram in file 2 of The Hidden =
City.

Note very carefully where the several ancient wall remnants have been fou=
nd=20
practically beneath the respective city walls shown in that diagram.  Rem=
ember,=20
after Babylon, the requirement for a 4 square wall was altered to allow t=
he=20
walls to be pushed out here and pulled in there.  So those walls should n=
ot be=20
perfectly 4 square.  However, the Levitical City walls around the Solomon=
ic=20
Temple West of the Hinnom (Jeremiah 19:2 KJV) should be 4 square (2,000 c=
ubits=20
per side).

Solomon=92s Temple faced West.  We don=92t know what direction the latter=
 two=20
faced.  Details are in The Hidden City series and in Reentering Temple Hi=
story=20
both =91A=92 and =91B=92:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/BriansHouse/menuba.html#rm1

When we visited the West Bank in 1985 it was obvious that those in power =
were=20
aware of Genesis 49:1,10 and feared the Holy Ark being Shiloh would signa=
l the=20
demise of the 6th Kingdom (John 11:47-53).  Therefore, we were stonewalle=
d when=20
we attempted to show people Scripture and the hiding place of GOD=92S Hol=
y Ark in=20
Hebron.  At that time we even badgered the Dept. of Antiquities agent in =
Hebron=20
every day for about a week.  His Arab employees thought it was a big joke=
 that=20
he was hiding from us rather that taking a ten minute ride up nearby Kob =
al-
Janib.

That=92s also where the Tombs of many kings reside including Solomon.  He=
bron is=20
also a =93City of David=94 as David was made king and reigned in Hebron. =
 Later the=20
Castle in Jebus (PreExilic Jerusalem) and Bethlehem were also called the =
=93City=20
of David=94.

So, you might get your Arab neighbors to help open up the tomb of Solomon=
 which=20
can be found by looking at the topography for the obvious cave near the t=
op of=20
the hill on the North side of the quarry upon Kob al-Janib.

At any rate, Solomon=92s Temple site West of the Hinnom has been under Je=
wish=20
jurisdiction since 1948 and should be easily reentered in a matter of day=
s or=20
weeks if people get busy.

The problem is simply to follow the water source.  And when you come to p=
laces=20
where it appears to be bubbling right out of the ground, just dig down an=
d then=20
go horizontal under the wall (an ancient sewer-tunnel gate).  Remember, t=
hat=92s=20
why King Zedekiah made the Copper Scroll out of copper so they could imme=
rse it=20
on the way out during his temporary escape from Nebuchadnezzar.  Zedekiah=
=20
escaped after having collapsed the Solomonic Temple on itself to keep=20
Nebuchadnezzar=92s forces out and to preserve the inner portion of the Te=
mple.

Remember, they tortured Zedekiah and killed his sons in an effort to forc=
e him=20
to tell how to get into the Temple.  Zedekiah obviously kept his mouth sh=
ut. =20
Now you know more than King Nebuchadnezzar.  Smile.

Note that spelunkers have lights, communications gear, cameras, light equ=
ipped=20
hard hats, etc. and are accustomed to crawling through narrow spaces=20
underground.  With an official invite they=92d probably reenter the Solom=
onic=20
Temple in a day or two.


CC: (1) John Pint (Member US National Speleogical Society)
Jpint@foreigner.class.udg.mx
       (2) Mike Hood (President National Speleogical Society)
President@caves.org
(3) Ray Keeler (Exec. Vice Pres. NSS)
rkeeler@pcslink.com



Dana
brianshouse@visto.com




_________________________________________________________________________=
__
Visit http://www.visto.com/info, your free web-based communications cente=
r.
Visto.com. Life on the Dot.


From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl  Fri Jun 30 19:06:05 2000
Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <engels@svfile1.win.tue.nl>
   id TAA03958 (ESMTP). Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:06:05 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for discovery-list
   id TAA29527. Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:04:10 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) 
   for <discovery@svin12.win.tue.nl>
   id TAA29523 (ESMTP). Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:04:03 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3)
   for <discovery@win.tue.nl>
   id TAA08617 (ESMTP). Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:04:02 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.132.168])
          by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net
          (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP
          id <20000630170328.OJVD3646.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com>;
          Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:03:28 +0000
Message-ID: <395CD2E0.CA8ECBE4@portolangroup.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:03:28 -0400
From: Phil Stover <pstover@portolangroup.com>
Organization: The Portolan Group
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47  (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" <discovery@win.tue.nl>,
        maptrade <maptrade@raremaps.com>,
        "maphist@camail1.harvard.edu" <maphist@camail1.harvard.edu>
Subject: [EXP] Poems or quotes regarding old sea pilots, compass roses and/or charts
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Status: RO

Greetings:
I am currently involved in a project developing a booklet and seminar on
Leadership using the compass rose, sea chart and sea pilot as both
visual and illustrative imagery.  I am interested in finding poems,
quotes, etc., from literature or history that might fit in such a
theme.  For example, Whitman in "Leaves of Grass" has a number of poems
about ship's pilots.  "Ulysses" by Tennyson has some wonderful imagery.
I would appreciate any leads on any great literary (fiction or
historical) imagery relating to compass (or wind) roses, sea charts, or
sea pilots.  I will, of course, give credit in the body of written
material, to the appropriate person, for the assistance in the discovery
of such literature.

If anyone is interested in the core eight tenets of leadership (The
Leadership Compass) that I am developing as a foundation for the
material, I would be happy to email you a scan.  Please understand they
are in initial format.  While the points themselves, are not
specifically related to a mariner theme, the illustrative material
(graphic and literary) will be.

My apologies to those who received multiple copies of this email due to
belong to several of the lists.

thanks in advance,
Phil Stover

--
Phil Stover for The Portolan Group, Inc.
4464 Hidden River Road, Sarasota, FL 34240 USA
email: pstover@portolangroup.com
website: <http://www.portolangroup.com>
Phone: 941/322-8427    Fax: 941/322-0458