From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Jul 1 13:25:22 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA16401 (ESMTP). Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:25:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA00809. Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:25:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA00805 (ESMTP). Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:24:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA10825 (ESMTP). Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:24:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d046.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.110]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA10247 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:24:47 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <005801bfe34f$4e090a00$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "henrique" To: References: <395CD2E0.CA8ECBE4@portolangroup.com> Subject: Re: [EXP] Poems or quotes regarding old sea pilots, compass roses and/or charts Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:25:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO you mean only in english, or you accept other languages? i'm saying that because we have a lot of works in portuguese, spanish, italian and dutch. Particulary in XV and XVI century i know a lot of them in portuguese including the big poem "Lusiadas", translated in english. Jorge Matos ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Stover To: ; maptrade ; Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 6:03 PM Subject: [EXP] Poems or quotes regarding old sea pilots, compass roses and/or charts > Greetings: > I am currently involved in a project developing a booklet and seminar on > Leadership using the compass rose, sea chart and sea pilot as both > visual and illustrative imagery. I am interested in finding poems, > quotes, etc., from literature or history that might fit in such a > theme. For example, Whitman in "Leaves of Grass" has a number of poems > about ship's pilots. "Ulysses" by Tennyson has some wonderful imagery. > I would appreciate any leads on any great literary (fiction or > historical) imagery relating to compass (or wind) roses, sea charts, or > sea pilots. I will, of course, give credit in the body of written > material, to the appropriate person, for the assistance in the discovery > of such literature. > > If anyone is interested in the core eight tenets of leadership (The > Leadership Compass) that I am developing as a foundation for the > material, I would be happy to email you a scan. Please understand they > are in initial format. While the points themselves, are not > specifically related to a mariner theme, the illustrative material > (graphic and literary) will be. > > My apologies to those who received multiple copies of this email due to > belong to several of the lists. > > thanks in advance, > Phil Stover > > -- > Phil Stover for The Portolan Group, Inc. > 4464 Hidden River Road, Sarasota, FL 34240 USA > email: pstover@portolangroup.com > website: > Phone: 941/322-8427 Fax: 941/322-0458 > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jul 10 17:00:34 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA10539 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:00:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA17871. Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:00:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA17867 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:00:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@[213.162.192.13] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA10498 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:00:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dmartin ([213.162.194.75]) by gema.activanet.es (8.9.3+3.2W/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA03955 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:02:30 +0200 Message-ID: <002401bfea7f$779590a0$4bc2a2d5@dmartin> From: "DENISE MARTIN" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Maps pages have moved! Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:59:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hello ... thank you for your message. DM Spain.... -----Original Message----- From: Henny Savenije To: maphist@camail1.harvard.edu ; discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Monday, July 10, 2000 4:42 PM Subject: [EXP] Maps pages have moved! >Hi all, > >I just wanted to let you all know that the maps pages have moved, so you >can update your links or bookmarks. > >Sincerely >----------------------------- >Henny (Lee Hae Kang) > >Feel free to visit >http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl >and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) >In Korean >http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jul 10 16:01:29 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA07772 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:01:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA17673. Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:59:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA17669 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:59:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA14610 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:59:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.43.242.230]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28110; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:13:19 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000710230314.00c39900@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:06:02 +0900 To: maphist@camail1.harvard.edu, discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: [EXP] Maps pages have moved! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Hi all, I just wanted to let you all know that the maps pages have moved, so you can update your links or bookmarks. Sincerely ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jul 10 18:09:24 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA15091 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:09:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA18086. Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:08:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA18082 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:08:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA15073 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:08:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.43.242.230]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA28230 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:22:48 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000711011453.00ad02e0@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:15:30 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Maps pages have moved! In-Reply-To: <002401bfea7f$779590a0$4bc2a2d5@dmartin> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO You're welcome, but I forgot to give the new URL At 11:59 PM 7/10/00, you wrote: >Hello ... thank you for your message. DM Spain.... >-----Original Message----- >From: Henny Savenije Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl (in English) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm In Dutch http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/Dutch Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/FritsVos Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.crosswinds.net/~hennysavenije/ (in English) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jul 14 19:13:15 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA20438 (ESMTP). Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:13:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA26124. Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:11:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA26120 (ESMTP). Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:11:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.49] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA20388 (ESMTP). Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:11:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.137.109]) by mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000714171057.NNPT2023.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com>; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:10:57 +0000 Message-ID: <396F49BC.50792699@portolangroup.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:11:24 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" , "maphist@camail1.harvard.edu" Subject: [EXP] Would appreciate help with critique of sea/sea pilot/navigation/sea chart poem Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EC14E82CFB01A827B0874584" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O --------------EC14E82CFB01A827B0874584 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you do not like poetry, please delete this now. I respect and value each member of these groups. I value your opinion. Over the last few evenings, I wrote a poem in which I tried to portray the sea, 17th century navigation and most importantly, sea pilots and charts. I wrote the poem for a dual purpose. First, I would like it to serve as the "company poem" for my company, "The Portolan Group", an educational consulting firm. Second, Bill Douglas, one of my favorite composers and musicians (I highly recommend his music and his cds) has offered to write a melody for me for a poem about the sea and navigation. Since I couldn't find one that really "jumped out" at me, I decided to write my own. I value you input on this poem. I freely acknowledge that I am not a poet. Feel free to critique it from any perspective---meter, navigation, accuracy, content, imagery, whatever. Perhaps the groups would not be interested in this as a whole, so you might want to reply privately to me. That also might serve to protect my fragile ego. I have such respect and awe for all of you and your accumulated knowledge. I thought some of you might enjoy reading this and offering me your thoughts. My best, Phil Stover. ------------------------------ Shepherd of the Sea By Algearve's crested cliffs we sail Past the pillars, gates of the fold. Zephyrus our zeal without fail Where sun meets sea, in beauty bold. Pilot sings the sea shepherd’s psalm. His chart---the score, mapped melody. His flock finds comfort in his calm. . . The pilot, shepherd of the sea. Twin howling wolves-the winds and waves Whose teeth, determined to devour, Rise in rage from their deep-sea caves. Man’s might mocked before their power. Pilot sings the sea shepherd’s psalm. His chart---the score, mapped melody. His flock finds comfort in his calm. . . The pilot, shepherd of the sea. As Neptune’s trident stirs the deep, Pilot’s cross-staff surveys the sky. As the shepherd’s staff shields the sheep, Pilot’s true compass calms the cry. Pilot sings the sea shepherd’s psalm. His chart---the score, mapped melody. His flock finds comfort in his calm. . . The pilot, shepherd of the sea. Polaris and Pilot-sure guides. . . The portolan chart points the way. My true love and I cross the tides Under rainbow sky. . .home today! Pilot sings the sea shepherd’s psalm. His chart---the score, mapped melody. His flock finds comfort in his calm. . . The pilot, shepherd of the sea. By Phil Stover, for The Portolan Group, Inc. --------------EC14E82CFB01A827B0874584 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you do not like poetry, please delete this now.  I respect and value each member of these groups.  I value your opinion.  Over the last few evenings, I wrote a poem in which I tried to portray the sea, 17th century navigation and most importantly, sea pilots and charts.

I wrote the poem for a dual purpose.  First, I would like it to serve as the "company poem" for my company, "The Portolan Group", an educational consulting firm.  Second, Bill Douglas, one of my favorite composers and musicians (I highly recommend his music and his cds) has offered to write a melody for me for a poem about the sea and navigation.  Since I couldn't find one that really "jumped out" at me, I decided to write my own.

I value you input on this poem.  I freely acknowledge that I am not a poet.  Feel free to critique it from any perspective---meter, navigation, accuracy, content, imagery, whatever.  Perhaps the groups would not be interested in this as a whole, so you might want to reply privately to me.  That also might serve to protect my fragile ego.  I have such respect and awe for all of you and your accumulated knowledge.  I thought some of you might enjoy reading this and offering me your thoughts.  My best, Phil Stover.

------------------------------

Shepherd of the Sea

By Algearve's crested cliffs we sail
Past the pillars, gates of the fold.
 Zephyrus our zeal without fail
Where sun meets sea, in beauty bold.

Pilot sings the sea shepherd’s psalm.
His chart---the score, mapped melody.
His flock finds comfort in his calm. . .
The pilot, shepherd of the sea.

Twin howling wolves-the winds and waves
Whose teeth, determined to devour,
Rise in rage from their deep-sea caves.
Man’s might mocked before their power.

Pilot sings the sea shepherd’s psalm.
His chart---the score, mapped melody.
His flock finds comfort in his calm. . .
The pilot, shepherd of the sea.

As Neptune’s trident stirs the deep,
Pilot’s cross-staff surveys the sky.
As the shepherd’s staff shields the sheep,
Pilot’s true compass calms the cry.

Pilot sings the sea shepherd’s psalm.
His chart---the score, mapped melody.
His flock finds comfort in his calm. . .
The pilot, shepherd of the sea.

Polaris and Pilot-sure guides. . .
The portolan chart points the way.
My true love and I cross the tides
Under rainbow sky. . .home today!

Pilot sings the sea shepherd’s psalm.
His chart---the score, mapped melody.
His flock finds comfort in his calm. . .
The pilot, shepherd of the sea.

By Phil Stover, for The Portolan Group, Inc.

--------------EC14E82CFB01A827B0874584-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jul 14 21:25:51 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA25008 (ESMTP). Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:25:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA26334. Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:25:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA26330 (ESMTP). Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:25:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA24999 (ESMTP). Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:25:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([195.5.77.70]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FXPCHD07.G2W; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:22:25 +0200 Message-ID: <000c01bfedc8$809edc00$464d05c3@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: , Subject: [EXP] Greenland and Bacallaos Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:19:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO A map of Jacob Ziegler ( 1532 ) with: -Greenland unites with Scandinavia by de north - in the south of Greenland, (as the same land) it appears the Terra de Bacallaos (Codland) Jose Anaya http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/map4a.html From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jul 14 21:31:13 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA25104 (ESMTP). Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:31:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA26342. Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:31:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA26338 (ESMTP). Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:31:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA25098 (ESMTP). Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:30:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.207.121]) by ssmtp04.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FXPCQC08.82L; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:27:48 +0200 Message-ID: <000601bfedc9$4161c880$79cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: , Subject: [EXP] RE: Greenland and Bacallaos Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:24:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Sorry: and more: the" Promontorium Hvitsark" of Pining and Pothorst in the Greenland Coast J. Anaya |A map of Jacob Ziegler ( 1532 ) with: | -Greenland unites with Scandinavia by de north | - in the south of Greenland, (as the same land) |it appears the Terra de Bacallaos (Codland) | |Jose Anaya | |http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/map4a.html | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jul 17 09:58:52 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA12501 (ESMTP). Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:58:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id JAA00271. Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:56:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA00265 (ESMTP). Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:56:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA11008 (SMTP). Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:56:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 95851 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2000 07:56:43 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 17 Jul 2000 07:56:43 -0000 Message-ID: <3972BB80.CAD53B4A@easynet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:53:36 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Unknown Dutch voyage Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The diary of CHRISTOPH CARL FERNBERGER, the Austrian nobleman who travelled around the world (partly in the employment of the VOC) between 1622 and 1628, states that he sailed through the Strait of Magellan in a Dutch ship in September to October 1622. I am a little concerned that I have no other reference to this voyage, the name of the commander, or the ship. Do any of our subscribers have any information about it ? Fernberger's dates are quite precise, so it couldn't have been with JACQUES LE HERMITE, which was two years later. Fernberger's ship passed through the Moluccas and was received cordially at Batavia, so it must have been a VOC voyage, or one commissioned by the Dutch government (not an early Dutch West India Company voyage). He had been picked up by the ship in the Cape Verde Islands after his original ship had been wrecked there in January 1622. He later visited Japan, Siam, Borneo and Celebes, but his travels seem to be largely unknown to most scholars. Any help would be much appreciated Ray Howgego. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jul 17 10:42:22 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA14703 (ESMTP). Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:42:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA00428. Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:42:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA00424 (ESMTP). Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:42:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA11113 (ESMTP). Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:42:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.43.242.230]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05025 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:55:42 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000717174712.0376ab70@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:48:44 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Unknown Dutch voyage In-Reply-To: <3972BB80.CAD53B4A@easynet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hold on! you aren't talking about Grimmelshausen's Simplicissimus, are you? At 04:53 PM 7/17/00, you wrote: >The diary of CHRISTOPH CARL FERNBERGER, the >Austrian nobleman who travelled around the world (partly in the >employment of the VOC) between 1622 and 1628, states that he sailed >through the Strait of Magellan in a Dutch ship in September to October >1622. > >I am a little concerned that I have no other reference to this voyage, >the name of the commander, or the ship. Do any of our subscribers have >any information >about it ? Fernberger's dates are quite precise, so it couldn't have >been with JACQUES LE HERMITE, which was two years later. > >Fernberger's ship passed through the Moluccas and was received cordially >at Batavia, so it must have been a VOC voyage, or one commissioned by >the Dutch government (not an early Dutch West India Company voyage). He >had been picked up by the ship in the Cape Verde Islands after his >original ship had been wrecked there in January 1622. He later visited >Japan, Siam, Borneo and Celebes, but his travels seem to be largely >unknown to most scholars. > >Any help would be much appreciated > >Ray Howgego. ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jul 17 23:39:39 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA19492 (ESMTP). Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:39:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA01901. Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:39:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA01897 (ESMTP). Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:39:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mercurio.feedback.net.ar [200.16.157.8] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA13047 (ESMTP). Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:39:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [200.41.172.206] (star318.feedback.net.ar [200.41.172.206]) by mercurio.feedback.net.ar (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e6HLlLe09239 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:47:21 -0300 Message-Id: <200007172147.e6HLlLe09239@mercurio.feedback.net.ar> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:39:39 -0300 Subject: Re: [EXP] Unknown Dutch voyage From: "Fabian Martin" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hello Ray, I've just checked "Bibliografia de Viajeros a la Argentina" (by Susana Santos Gomez, Buenos Aires, 1983), a quite complete work (or I thought that), and Fernberger is not mentioned at all. Do you have any other "clue"? Wich is the exact name of his diary? I'll check tomorrow on Palau's catalogue. Best wishes, Fabian Martin ---------- >From: Ray Howgego >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: [EXP] Unknown Dutch voyage >Date: Mon, Jul 17, 2000, 4:53 AM > > The diary of CHRISTOPH CARL FERNBERGER, the > Austrian nobleman who travelled around the world (partly in the > employment of the VOC) between 1622 and 1628, states that he sailed > through the Strait of Magellan in a Dutch ship in September to October > 1622. > > I am a little concerned that I have no other reference to this voyage, > the name of the commander, or the ship. Do any of our subscribers have > any information > about it ? Fernberger's dates are quite precise, so it couldn't have > been with JACQUES LE HERMITE, which was two years later. > > Fernberger's ship passed through the Moluccas and was received cordially > at Batavia, so it must have been a VOC voyage, or one commissioned by > the Dutch government (not an early Dutch West India Company voyage). He > had been picked up by the ship in the Cape Verde Islands after his > original ship had been wrecked there in January 1622. He later visited > Japan, Siam, Borneo and Celebes, but his travels seem to be largely > unknown to most scholars. > > Any help would be much appreciated > > Ray Howgego. > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 18 10:16:09 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA17774 (ESMTP). Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:16:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA02967. Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:15:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA02963 (ESMTP). Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:14:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA17747 (SMTP). Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:14:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 2397 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2000 08:14:55 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2000 08:14:55 -0000 Message-ID: <39741135.53F2B19F@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:11:33 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re: Grimmelshausen and Fernberger References: <200007172147.e6HLlLe09239@mercurio.feedback.net.ar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Fabian and Henny Many thanks for responding to my enquiry. This is developing into a curious mystery. The "Raisbuch" of Christoph Carl Fernberger von Egenberg, which deals with his travels between 1622 and 1628 exists as two manuscript documents: the original is in the National Library of Austria, while a copy is in the library of the University of Salzburg. The original dates from about the year 1630. The diary was brought to light by the anthropologist, Karl Wernhart, who published it at Vienna in 1972. The importance of the diary for Wernhart was that it was the first document to describe in detail some of the customs of the Chamorro people of the Mariana islands. Fernberger called at the Marianas in March 1623, on his way from Baja California to the East Indies. According to his diary, he had sailed through the Strait of Magellan between the 18th September and the 2nd November 1622, before continuing along the coast of South and Central America. There appears to be no other record of this voyage, and it is not apparent that Wernhart appreciates this fact. The diary is quite a substantial document of 270 pages and appears to contain verifiable anthropological detail of the islanders which could have only been collected first-hand. Henny's reference to the work of Grimmelshausen (which I had to look up - excuse my ignorance!) makes the mystery even more intriguing. Like the hero of Grimmelshausen's "Simplicissimus", Fernberger also served in the Thirty Years War, and had many adventures in Europe before taking to the seas ! However, there exists some original documentation of Fernberger's early life (he was born in about 1598) - so he can at least be confirmed as a real person. According to Wernhart, the handwriting of the diary has been checked against other Fernberger documents in the Library of Vienna and in the von Egenberg family archives. So is the voyage fictitious ? It might be, but Fernberger's diary is not written in the characteristic "Robinson Crusoe" style, and was not printed. Grimmelshausen was born in about 1625, at the time Fernberger was already in the East Indies. The "Simplicissimus" was published in 1659, thirty years after Fernberger's manuscript. Could it be that Grimmelshausen made use of Fernberger's diary ? Unfortunately, I have little knowledge of Grimmelshausen's work or its sources. The only English translation was apparently published in 1924 and would be difficult to find. Any more input on this mystery would be appreciated. Ray References: Wernhart, Karl R.: Christoph Carl Fernberger, der erste österreichische Weltreisende (1621-1628) (Vienna 1972). Wernhart, Karl R.: A pre-missionary manuscript record of the Chamorro, Micronesia (in The Journal of Pacific History, vol. 7:1972, 189-194). From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 18 10:58:19 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA18904 (ESMTP). Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:58:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA03041. Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:58:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA03037 (ESMTP). Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:57:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA18884 (ESMTP). Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:57:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.43.242.230]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06040 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:11:29 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000718175820.00be3100@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:04:38 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Grimmelshausen In-Reply-To: <39741135.53F2B19F@easynet.co.uk> References: <200007172147.e6HLlLe09239@mercurio.feedback.net.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Some more infos (only in German language) about Grimmelshausen: You can find a short biography at http://gutenberg.aol.de/autoren/grimmels.htm The whole book "Simplizissimus" is at: http://gutenberg.aol.de/grimmels/simpl/simpl.htm The Internet-version of the book also includes the "Continuo" (added to the book a year later and normally not included in the printed editions), that is a "Robinson Crusoe"-story, with the funny detail, that the hero of the story is rescued from the remote tropical island by a Dutch ship, the name of the Captain is "Cornelissen" (see chapter 24 of the Continuo). The reason why the "Continuo" is regularly skipped on printed editions is its lower standard of quality of the text. The whole book is more or less an autobiography of Grimmelshausen, dealing mainly with the confusion of society during the thirty-years-war (1618-1648) in Europe. Only in book four he starts his eastward journey (which is fiction) via Moscow, Astrakhan to the Tartars and then via Korea, Japan and Macao back to Europe. Describtions about Russia are quite long, about Korea, Japan and Macao is half a page. Interesting in his fictional writing about Korea is: A) That he was estimated by the (Korean) court because of his curiosity. B) He taught the court how to make and use certain weapons. C) The Korean king gave him freedom and let him return via Japan. Historical aspects: When he writes about the "Niuchischen Tartaren", who just concluded peace with the Koreans, I guess, he thinks of the Manchus, who subdued Korea in 1636. In general. the word "Niuchische (Jurchen) Tartaren" was used by the catholic missionaries in China for the 500 years earlier Jurchen (Jin-Dynasty). As the Portuguese were driven out of Japan in 1640, there is only a very limited time-gap, where Grimmelshausens sources may come from. For those who have read my website can understand how interesting this aspect is. Was Grimmelshausen in Korea etc. or not. Most likely not, news traveled fast in those days and his book was printed one year before Hamel's book. If there would have been another westerner in Korea, Hamel and his crew would have known about him and he wouldn't be allowed to leave just like the rest. But it is interesting that he published his book, one year after Hamel and his crew escaped and one year before Hamel's book was published. ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jul 19 01:16:52 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA29699 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:16:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA04468. Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:16:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA04464 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:16:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.6] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA29682 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:16:13 +0200 (MET DST) From: Snakerog@aol.com Received: from Snakerog@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.12.) id l.dd.719198b (6537) for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:15:32 EDT Subject: [EXP] Re: Grimmelshausen and Fernberger To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 117 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Hello, how do I get off this mailing list? Thanks. Ben From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jul 19 10:29:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA17868 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:29:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA05237. Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:27:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA05233 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:27:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) id KAA06007. Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:27:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200007190827.KAA06007@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] unsubscribing To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:27:04 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: snakerog@aol.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Snakerog@aol.com wrote: > Hello, how do I get off this mailing list? Thanks. Ben I will be removing you by hand after this message, but in case anyone else wants to unsubscribe too: Send an email to majordomo@win.tue.nl, with in its body (not the subject) the text "unsubscribe discovery" (without the "'s of course). -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jul 21 19:38:16 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA17364 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Jul 2000 19:38:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA10979. Fri, 21 Jul 2000 19:34:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA10975 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Jul 2000 19:34:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ewwolf@cap1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.10] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA28194 (SMTP). Fri, 21 Jul 2000 19:34:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from ewwolf@localhost) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id NAA12078; Fri, 21 Jul 1972 13:39:52 -0400 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1972 13:39:52 -0400 Message-Id: <197207211739.NAA12078@cap1.CapAccess.org> From: ewwolf@capaccess.org (Eric W. Wolf) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Afryqah Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Sales, Pierre L., From ancient Afryqah to modern Africa, Great Falls, VA: Afryqah Ltd., Deerfield Pond, Great Falls, VA 22066, 2000. Encyclopedic reference tool compressing 2400 hard-copy pages, including 550 historical maps, on a single CD-ROM configured for both MAC and IBM. Provides historical coverage of Africa's 53 sovereign states and 15 Dependent Territories.. $49.00. A significant addition to the history and cartography of Africa. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jul 21 22:18:08 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA23655 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Jul 2000 22:18:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA11221. Fri, 21 Jul 2000 22:16:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA11217 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Jul 2000 22:16:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA23580 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Jul 2000 22:16:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mehrin (pool-207-205-149-73.dlls.grid.net [207.205.149.73]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA30514 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001501bff350$ec677680$4995cdcf@mindspring.com> From: "Roy Selby" To: References: <197207211739.NAA12078@cap1.CapAccess.org> Subject: Re: [EXP] Afryqah Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:19:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Thank you. How do I order a copy of the CD-ROM? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric W. Wolf" To: Sent: Friday, July 21, 1972 12:39 PM Subject: [EXP] Afryqah > > > Sales, Pierre L., From ancient Afryqah to modern Africa, Great Falls, VA: > Afryqah Ltd., Deerfield Pond, Great Falls, VA 22066, 2000. Encyclopedic > reference tool compressing 2400 hard-copy pages, including 550 historical maps, > on a single CD-ROM configured for both MAC and IBM. Provides historical > coverage of Africa's 53 sovereign states and 15 Dependent Territories.. $49.00. > > > A significant addition to the history and cartography of Africa. > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jul 21 23:24:31 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA26139 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:24:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA11330. Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:22:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA11326 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:22:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA26094 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:22:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mehrin (pool-207-205-149-73.dlls.grid.net [207.205.149.73]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA29265 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000e01bff35a$27b45880$4995cdcf@mindspring.com> From: "Roy Selby" To: Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:25:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFF330.3DB95880" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFF330.3DB95880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I should like to order the CD-ROM regarding Africa. How may I fdo this? = Roy Selby ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFF330.3DB95880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I should like to order the CD-ROM = regarding Africa.=20 How may I fdo this?   Roy Selby
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFF330.3DB95880-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Jul 22 00:40:27 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA28865 (ESMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:40:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA11599. Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:38:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA11595 (ESMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:38:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ewwolf@cap1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.10] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA28802 (SMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:38:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from ewwolf@localhost) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id SAA12366; Fri, 21 Jul 1972 18:43:58 -0400 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1972 18:43:58 -0400 Message-Id: <197207212243.SAA12366@cap1.CapAccess.org> From: ewwolf@CapAccess.org (Eric W. Wolf) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Afryqah Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO order from Pierre L. Sales, 9907 Deerfield Pond, Great Falls, VA 22066-2832. 703-759-2592 phone 703-759-3507 fax psales@erols.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Jul 22 00:42:18 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA28926 (ESMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:42:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA11620. Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:40:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA11616 (ESMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:40:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ewwolf@cap1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.10] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA28884 (SMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:40:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from ewwolf@localhost) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id SAA12476; Fri, 21 Jul 1972 18:46:08 -0400 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1972 18:46:08 -0400 Message-Id: <197207212246.SAA12476@cap1.CapAccess.org> From: ewwolf@CapAccess.org (Eric W. Wolf) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Afryqah Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Order from Pierre L. Sales, 9907 Deerfield Pond, Great Falls, VA 22066-2832. 703-759-2592 phone 703-759-3507 fax psales@erols.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Jul 22 00:51:48 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA29109 (ESMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:51:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA11631. Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:50:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA11627 (ESMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:50:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA29082 (ESMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 00:50:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mehrin (pool-209-138-207-41-dlls.grid.net [209.138.207.41]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA16711 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:50:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <005701bff366$6ac56b80$29cf8ad1@mindspring.com> From: "Roy Selby" To: References: <197207212243.SAA12366@cap1.CapAccess.org> Subject: Re: [EXP] Afryqah Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:52:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Thank you very much. Have sent the email. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric W. Wolf" To: Sent: Friday, July 21, 1972 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [EXP] Afryqah > > > order from Pierre L. Sales, 9907 Deerfield Pond, Great Falls, VA > 22066-2832. > 703-759-2592 phone > 703-759-3507 fax > psales@erols.com > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Jul 22 16:31:19 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA04574 (ESMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 16:31:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA12702. Sat, 22 Jul 2000 16:30:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA12698 (ESMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 16:30:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.46] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA04556 (ESMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 16:30:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.177.9]) by mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000722143007.GRPL9377.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com> for ; Sat, 22 Jul 2000 14:30:07 +0000 Message-ID: <3979B024.B4C28B80@portolangroup.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 10:31:00 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] Magellan Quote Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I recently purchased a print from Successories with the following Magellan quote on it. Can anyone please tell me if this is authentic and if there is a source for it? I don't want to use it if it is mythological. Thanks very much. "The sea is dangerous and its storms terrible, but these obstacles have never been sufficient reason to remain ashore...Unlike the mediocre, intrepid spirits seek victory over those things that seem impossible...It is with an iron will that they embark on the most daring of all endeavors...To meet the shadowy future without fear and conquer the unknown." Phil Stover -- Phil Stover for The Portolan Group, Inc. http://www.portolangroup.com Deep Peace of the running wave to you. . . Deep Peace of the flowing air to you. . . Deep Peace of the quiet earth to you. . . Deep Peace of the shining stars to you. . . Deep Peace of the gentle night to you. . . Moon and stars pour their healing light on you. . . Deep Peace to you --- A Gaelic Blessing Enjoy the music of Bill Douglas... http://www.billdouglas.cc From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Jul 22 16:57:43 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA04970 (ESMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 16:57:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA12730. Sat, 22 Jul 2000 16:57:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA12726 (ESMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 16:57:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65] (may be forged) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA04962 (SMTP). Sat, 22 Jul 2000 16:57:20 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 16:57:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <200007221457.QAA04962@svfile1.win.tue.nl> Received: (qmail 11676 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2000 14:57:01 -0000 Received: from jimh.msns.eph.ptd.net (24.229.52.223) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2000 14:57:01 -0000 X-Sender: heritage@mail.ptd.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Heritage Map Museum Subject: Re: [EXP] Magellan Quote Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Phil, I finally check out your website and discovered your educational interests - wonderful, and love your map/exploration imagery. Also, appreciate the Gaelic Blessing. I'm copying it to pass it on. Good for all, but I'll use it particular with kids who I'm working with. I don't know if we discussed my "other life", eg social work and psychotherapy? But, on the consultant education level, do you know of Elaine Meils in Clearwater? A fine, fine dedicated person, teacher of the year, etc. Would be happy to facilitate introductions. Best, Jim At 10:31 AM 07/22/2000 -0400, you wrote: >I recently purchased a print from Successories with the following >Magellan quote on it. Can anyone please tell me if this is authentic >and if there is a source for it? I don't want to use it if it is >mythological. Thanks very much. > >"The sea is dangerous and its storms terrible, but these obstacles have >never been sufficient reason to remain ashore...Unlike the mediocre, >intrepid spirits seek victory over those things that seem >impossible...It is with an iron will that they embark on the most daring >of all endeavors...To meet the shadowy future without fear and conquer >the unknown." > >Phil Stover >-- >Phil Stover for The Portolan Group, Inc. http://www.portolangroup.com > >Deep Peace of the running wave to you. . . Deep Peace of the flowing air >to you. . . >Deep Peace of the quiet earth to you. . . Deep Peace of the shining >stars to you. . . >Deep Peace of the gentle night to you. . . Moon and stars pour their >healing light on you. . . >Deep Peace to you --- A Gaelic Blessing > >Enjoy the music of Bill Douglas... http://www.billdouglas.cc > > > > James E. Hess Curator & Owner Heritage Map Museum 49 N. Broad St. (Rear) PO Box 412 Lititz, Pa 17543 717-626-5002 FAX 626-8858 http://www.carto.com A child is not a glass that is filled but a fire that is set ablaze. Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 23 03:09:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA29791 (ESMTP). Sun, 23 Jul 2000 03:09:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id DAA13627. Sun, 23 Jul 2000 03:08:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA13623 (ESMTP). Sun, 23 Jul 2000 03:08:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA29751 (ESMTP). Sun, 23 Jul 2000 03:08:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA10827 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 09:08:32 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp222.dyn240.pacific.net.ph [210.23.240.222]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id JAA01170 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 09:08:30 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <000901bff3f7$2a58d640$def017d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Subject: [EXP] Magellan quote Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:08:07 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO To Phil Stover This is a long shot. It may be in the disputed account attributed to Magellan written when he was still working for the Portuguese king. Its title is "Descripcion de los reinos, costas, puertos e islas que hay desde el Cabo de Buena Esperanza hasta los Leyquios." This book was published 1920 by the Real Sociedad Geografica edited by Antonio Blazquez and Delgado Aguilera. Its authenticity has been questioned. Martin Fernandez de Navarette detected textual alterations that suggest there was more than Magellan's hand. There are two copies of this book in the Philippines, one is in the University of the Philippines another is in the Lopez Museum. We were able to procure a photocopy from the Museo Naval in Madrid but have not really perused it as our focus has been on Magellan's post-Portugal activities. I'm sure all the other big libraries in Spain have it. I tried mightily to access the U.S. Library of Congress online catalog and the other libraries and archives affiliated with LC but always end up with a negative response. It is inconceivable that there is no copy anywhere in the U.S. I hope anybody who knows of a copy somewhere will speak up. However, the quote has the feel of a man for whom the sea no longer holds any terror and of someone with supreme self-confidence, certain in the knowledge he has stared nature and other men and they all blinked. It could only be a Magellan after he conquered the Pacific. In which case, I doubt if there is a document outside of the 9 established eyewitness accounts that contain these words. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 23 18:32:37 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA28709 (ESMTP). Sun, 23 Jul 2000 18:32:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA14611. Sun, 23 Jul 2000 18:31:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA14607 (ESMTP). Sun, 23 Jul 2000 18:31:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA28687 (SMTP). Sun, 23 Jul 2000 18:31:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 86664 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2000 16:31:15 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 2000 16:31:15 -0000 Message-ID: <397B1D09.BF83FF66@easynet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 17:27:53 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Magellan quote References: <000901bff3f7$2a58d640$def017d2@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Lord Stanley of Alderley, who translated "A description of the coasts of East Africa and Malabar … by Duarte Barbosa; translated from a manuscript in the Barcelona Library (c. 1514)", actually favoured Magellan as the author of this work. It was published by the Hakluyt Society in 1866. Is this the same as the Real Sociedad Geografica's edition of the "Descripcion de los reinos, costas, puertos e islas ... " ? A quite different translation of Duarte Barbosa was published by the Hakluyt Society in 1918-21, the well known Mansel Longworth Dames edition. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jul 24 11:41:56 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA11913 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:41:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id LAA16299. Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:39:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA16295 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:39:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from strauss.siteprotect.com [64.26.0.44] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA11806 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:39:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from krogt.maphist.nl (ip65129.geog.uu.nl [131.211.65.129]) by strauss.siteprotect.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA18079 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 04:39:02 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000724113421.00b13930@maphist.nl> X-Sender: maphist@maphist.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:40:55 +0200 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: [EXP] Columbus Monuments Website Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear list The Columbus Monuments Website (a non-commercial website) is completely revised and has been moved to a new address: http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/columbus/ 157 Columbus memorials are described, and about a 100 are illustrated. Suggestions for improvement, additional photos and "new" monuments are very welcome. Send scanned photos with information on location etc. to peter@maphist.nl, or send prints to my home-address (on request I send you that by e-mail) Thanks in advance. Peter van der Krogt YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt, Delft, The Netherlands Visit my Columbus Monuments Page: http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/columbus/ e-mail: peter@maphist.nl Fax +31 15 212 6063 YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jul 24 23:33:16 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA09919 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:33:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA17221. Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:32:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA17217 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:32:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA09909 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:32:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.136.200]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000724213200.SMAC3652.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com> for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:32:00 +0000 Message-ID: <397CB607.C253EA7F@portolangroup.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:32:56 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Magellan Quote References: <200007221457.QAA04962@svfile1.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hi Jim: Thanks so much for your message. I am really glad you enjoyed my web site. I really appreciate that. A friend of mine hand-drew all the figures for the chart theme. I am very grateful to him. I think we discussed our mutual interest in psychotherapy and social work once before. You may know Glen Denlinger from up near Lancaster who worked at Philhaven and now is a social worker with a practice out of our church. I was in practice in a AAPC approved pastoral counseling center for a lot of years and taught pastoral care and counseling at both Liberty and Northeastern Bible College. No I do not know Elaine Meils. Clearwater is only about an hour or so from hear. I would love to meet her. Its interesting, I never got an answer from anyone on the Magellan quote. I would love to use it in my seminars, but don't want to if it is a fictitious quote. I wrote Successories online to see if they would tell me from where they got the quote. Did you see my Dudley questions? I have gotten more private messages on those questions than on anything I have ever posted. Everyone wants to talk about him, but not in public. He is a rascal, a genius, a bum and the greatest ever. Seems like some think he got involved with some big fraudulent tale with Drake and Cavendish. I don't know enough to know what they are talking about, but it sure is interesting. Apparently Dudley, Drake, Cavendish and Hondius were all good friends and somehow are thought to have conspired to fake something about Drake's circumnavigation. It is a shame all these messages are private. I would love to see the comments on them. Take care. I will be in the Northeast in October for a family occasion (you know we Mennonites have to make an annual pilgrimage back home)! I hope to meet Joel Kovarsky, who has been very helpful to me. I would also like to meet you there in Lititz. Maybe I can see Curt and Roger at the same time. My best, Phil Heritage Map Museum wrote: > Phil, > > I finally check out your website and discovered your educational interests - > wonderful, and love your map/exploration imagery. > > Also, appreciate the Gaelic Blessing. I'm copying it to pass it on. Good for > all, but I'll use it particular with kids who I'm working with. I don't know > if we discussed my "other life", eg social work and psychotherapy? > > But, on the consultant education level, do you know of Elaine Meils in > Clearwater? A fine, fine dedicated person, teacher of the year, etc. Would > be happy to facilitate introductions. > > Best, Jim > > At 10:31 AM 07/22/2000 -0400, you wrote: > >I recently purchased a print from Successories with the following > >Magellan quote on it. Can anyone please tell me if this is authentic > >and if there is a source for it? I don't want to use it if it is > >mythological. Thanks very much. > > > >"The sea is dangerous and its storms terrible, but these obstacles have > >never been sufficient reason to remain ashore...Unlike the mediocre, > >intrepid spirits seek victory over those things that seem > >impossible...It is with an iron will that they embark on the most daring > >of all endeavors...To meet the shadowy future without fear and conquer > >the unknown." > > > >Phil Stover > >-- > >Phil Stover for The Portolan Group, Inc. http://www.portolangroup.com > > > >Deep Peace of the running wave to you. . . Deep Peace of the flowing air > >to you. . . > >Deep Peace of the quiet earth to you. . . Deep Peace of the shining > >stars to you. . . > >Deep Peace of the gentle night to you. . . Moon and stars pour their > >healing light on you. . . > >Deep Peace to you --- A Gaelic Blessing > > > >Enjoy the music of Bill Douglas... http://www.billdouglas.cc > > > > > > > > > James E. Hess > Curator & Owner > Heritage Map Museum > 49 N. Broad St. (Rear) > PO Box 412 > Lititz, Pa 17543 > 717-626-5002 > FAX 626-8858 > http://www.carto.com > > A child is not a glass that is filled but a fire that is set ablaze. > Maria Montessori -- Phil Stover for The Portolan Group, Inc. http://www.portolangroup.com Deep Peace of the running wave to you. . . Deep Peace of the flowing air to you. . . Deep Peace of the quiet earth to you. . . Deep Peace of the shining stars to you. . . Deep Peace of the gentle night to you. . . Moon and stars pour their healing light on you. . . Deep Peace to you --- A Gaelic Blessing Enjoy the music of Bill Douglas... http://www.billdouglas.cc From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 01:08:50 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA17711 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:08:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA17526. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:08:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA17522 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:08:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA07120 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:08:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.206.98]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FY85GX05.D21 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:05:21 +0200 Message-ID: <000801bff5c3$4d77fc00$62ce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: [EXP] a visit to America in 1500 , of Danes? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:02:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO do you know anything of a visit to north america in 1500 of an expedition of "Normans [Norwegians?], Dutchs and Danes"? .This expedition was from Greenland to Labrador, if it existed... Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 01:18:42 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA17956 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:18:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA17540. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:18:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA17536 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:18:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA07132 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:18:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.136.200]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000724231800.UBPM3652.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com> for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:18:00 +0000 Message-ID: <397CCEE4.CB3651C1@portolangroup.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 19:19:00 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] My apologies to Jim and the group References: <200007221457.QAA04962@svfile1.win.tue.nl> <397CB607.C253EA7F@portolangroup.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO To all: My apologies to Jim Hess and to the group for mistakenly responding to his message publicly. My mistake. Now, who knows anything about a Drake-Dudley conspiracy?? thanks Phil From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 02:02:05 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA19824 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:02:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA17597. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:01:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA17593 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:01:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA19545 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:01:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from Win95 (ha-1o-men-p2-m15.mcn.org [63.193.12.75]) by mail.mcn.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id e6P01cr00851 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000724170208.007c45e0@mail.mcn.org> X-Sender: oseeler@mail.mcn.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:02:08 -0700 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Oliver Seeler Subject: [EXP] RE: Dudley Skullduggery In-Reply-To: <397CCEE4.CB3651C1@portolangroup.com> References: <200007221457.QAA04962@svfile1.win.tue.nl> <397CB607.C253EA7F@portolangroup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 05:32 PM 7/24/00 -0400, Phil Stover accidentally posted: [snip] >Did you see my Dudley questions? I have gotten more private messages on those >questions than on anything I have ever posted. Everyone wants to talk about >him, but not in public. He is a rascal, a genius, a bum and the greatest ever. >Seems like some think he got involved with some big fraudulent tale with Drake >and Cavendish. I don't know enough to know what they are talking about, but it >sure is interesting. Apparently Dudley, Drake, Cavendish and Hondius were all >good friends and somehow are thought to have conspired to fake something about >Drake's circumnavigation. It is a shame all these messages are private. I >would love to see the comments on them. [snip] And then on at 07:19 PM 7/24/00 -0400, he followed with: [snip] >My mistake. Now, who knows anything about a Drake-Dudley conspiracy?? [snip] Why not simply summarize, without attribution, a few of these letters? Some of us love to shred conspiracy theories... (and by the way if you think you've got nutty mail about Dudley, you should see some of what I've accumulated over the past five years, via my web site, about Drake). Regards, Oliver Oliver Seeler Director, Nova Albion Research oseeler@mcn.org & bagpipes@mcn.org ~visit our sites~ ***The Universe of Bagpipes*** ~over 30 kinds of bagpipes~ ~sound clips & hundreds of photos~ ~a new CD, Bagpipes of the World~ http://www.hotpipes.com ~ A Yahoo! Weekly Pick ~ ~and~ *** Sir Francis Drake *** ~ an international educational resource ~ http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/drake.htm ~ recommended by The History Channel ~ From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 02:26:15 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA20290 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:26:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA17619. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:24:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA17615 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:24:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA20269 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:24:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19063; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:24:31 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp207.dyn241.pacific.net.ph [210.23.241.207]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id IAA13660; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:24:30 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <001b01bff52e$177c8340$22f017d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Cc: References: <000901bff3f7$2a58d640$def017d2@default> <397B1D09.BF83FF66@easynet.co.uk> Subject: Re: [EXP] Magellan quote Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:14:01 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Howgego To: Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 12:27 AM Subject: Re: [EXP] Magellan quote Lord Stanley of Alderley, who translated "A description of the coasts of East Africa and Malabar . by Duarte Barbosa; translated from a manuscript in the Barcelona Library (c. 1514)", actually favoured Magellan as the author of this work. It was published by the Hakluyt Society in 1866. Is this the same as the Real Sociedad Geografica's edition of the "Descripcion de los reinos, costas, puertos e islas ... " ? A quite different translation of Duarte Barbosa was published by the Hakluyt Society in 1918-21, the well known Mansel Longworth Dames edition. It's very possible the Real Sociedad Geografica account and the Hakluyt account by Duarte Barbosa may be one and the same. I'm looking for both Hakluyt editions in a library here in the Philippines. A check with one library is has the largest collection of Hakluyt books turned up negative. In the Real Sociedad Geografica book, there is another account by a seaman who was with Magellan's voyage. His name is Gines de Mafra. It is little known although a number of navigation historians and Magellan scholars refer to it. Morison mistakenly says the account is in Navarette, vol. 4. It's not, what Navarette has are signed affidavits executed by Mafra right after his release from prison in January 1527. Ironically, this account is virtually unknown in the Philippines. Our National Historical Institute dismissed it as a fake. I have yet to come across a Western expert who doubts its authenticity. Is there anyone out there who has done work on Mafra? But, back to Stover's Magellan quote. There do not see quotes of a philosophizing nature in Pigafetta, Albo, the Genoese Pilot or Mafra. Is it possible it is in Barros? He and other contemporaneous Portuguese historians had access to papers taken from Trinidad among which may have been the notes and writings of Magellan. In Joyner's biography, there are long passages from Andres de San Martin quoting Magellan. Another long shot is McKew Parr or Stefan Zweig. These contain thoughts and spoken words attributed to Magellan that are hard to trace to an original source. Also, the quote sounds grandiloquent, eminently quotable it is mystifying it has not gained the kind of fame that would have established its provenance the very moment it was uttered or had seen print. But, before we go on further. What is Successories? From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 03:48:06 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA22535 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 03:48:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id DAA17682. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 03:47:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA17678 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 03:47:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from IDENT:postfix@uno.bcn.net [209.213.0.60] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA07365 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 03:47:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from bcn.net (max-3-psf-41.bcn.net [208.238.84.190]) by uno.bcn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA9293083 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <397CF175.164B175B@bcn.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:46:30 -0400 From: Overlee Farm Books X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Magellan quote References: <000901bff3f7$2a58d640$def017d2@default> <397B1D09.BF83FF66@easynet.co.uk> <001b01bff52e$177c8340$22f017d2@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO "vicente c. de jesus" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray Howgego > To: > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 12:27 AM > Subject: Re: [EXP] Magellan quote > > Lord Stanley of Alderley, who translated "A description of the coasts of > East Africa and Malabar . by Duarte Barbosa; translated from a > manuscript in the Barcelona Library (c. 1514)", actually favoured > Magellan as the author of this work. It was published by the Hakluyt > Society in 1866. > > Is this the same as the Real Sociedad Geografica's edition of the > "Descripcion de los reinos, costas, puertos e islas ... " ? > > A quite different translation of Duarte Barbosa was published by the > Hakluyt Society in 1918-21, the well known Mansel Longworth Dames > edition. > > It's very possible the Real Sociedad Geografica account and the Hakluyt > account by Duarte Barbosa may be one and the same. I'm looking for both > Hakluyt editions in a library here in the Philippines. A check with one > library is has the largest collection of Hakluyt books turned up negative. > > In the Real Sociedad Geografica book, there is another account by a seaman > who was with Magellan's voyage. His name is Gines de Mafra. It is little > known although a number of navigation historians and Magellan scholars refer > to it. Morison mistakenly says the account is in Navarette, vol. 4. It's > not, what Navarette has are signed affidavits executed by Mafra right after > his release from prison in January 1527. Ironically, this account is > virtually unknown in the Philippines. Our National Historical Institute > dismissed it as a fake. I have yet to come across a Western expert who > doubts its authenticity. Is there anyone out there who has done work on > Mafra? > > But, back to Stover's Magellan quote. There do not see quotes of a > philosophizing nature in Pigafetta, Albo, the Genoese Pilot or Mafra. Is it > possible it is in Barros? He and other contemporaneous Portuguese historians > had access to papers taken from Trinidad among which may have been the notes > and writings of Magellan. In Joyner's biography, there are long passages > from Andres de San Martin quoting Magellan. > > Another long shot is McKew Parr or Stefan Zweig. These contain thoughts and > spoken words attributed to Magellan that are hard to trace to an original > source. Also, the quote sounds grandiloquent, eminently quotable it is > mystifying it has not gained the kind of fame that would have established > its provenance the very moment it was uttered or had seen print. > > But, before we go on further. What is Successories? I am the author of "Magellan Historiography," HISPANIC AMERICAN HISTORICAL REVIEW, Vol. LI, No. 2 (May, 1971), pp. 313-335 which was updated as the opening chapter in THE PORTUGUESE AND THE PACIFIC (Santa Barbara: Univ. of California, 1995). In the original historiographical essay I noted that Lord Stanley's translations "must be used with discrimination because [he wrote] at a time when standards of scholarship were not as rigorous as they are today." On page 318 I refer to the DECADAS DA ASIA of Joao de Barros and note that "he may even have used the lost account of the voyage written by Magellan" prior to his death on Mactan. Regarding Gines de Mafra who eventually returned to Spain in 1527, he left an account which has been published. However, I also noted that Martin Fernandez de Navarrete maintained that it cannot be based on more than Mafra's memory of what he might have read in a TRATADO begun by Andres de San Martin who sailedas pilot and astronomer and was one of those murdered three days after Magellan. It should also be kept in mind during this discussion that there were AT LEAST two men by the name of Duarte Barbosa; one has been variously described as the brother-in-law or cousin, by marriage, of Magellan. Again, I would advise caution in utilizing Lord Stanley's translation and certainly would repeat that advice with regard to the many translations of Sir Clements R. Markham. Martin Torodash From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 04:41:06 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA24414 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:41:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA17775. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:40:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA17771 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:40:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.52] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA24405 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:40:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.178.59]) by mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000725024010.SGNU14052.mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com> for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:40:10 +0000 Message-ID: <397CFE44.5AAB9EAF@portolangroup.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:41:08 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] Successories Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Vicente and others: Successories is a chain of stores here in the U.S. that publishes beautiful and inspirational items for offices. They specialize in wonderful and challenging quotes on attitude, teamwork, integrity, etc. You can find their web site at http://www.successories.com http://www.successories.com/prodetail.asp?nav_id_store=&nav_id_top=&nav_id_left=1&group_id=2&theme_id=&nav_id_browse=&sku=734308 This is the link to show you the exact Magellan print and quote to which I am referring. I have written them, asking for the source for this quote. I have not as of yet heard from them. my best, Phil -- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 05:28:12 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA26046 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:28:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA17802. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:27:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA17798 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:27:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA26034 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:27:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from Win95 (ha-2o-men-p1-m20.mcn.org [63.193.13.32]) by mail.mcn.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id e6P3Rlr17930 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000724202018.0098f560@mail.mcn.org> X-Sender: oseeler@mail.mcn.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:20:18 -0700 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Oliver Seeler Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories In-Reply-To: <397CFE44.5AAB9EAF@portolangroup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO What's this awful smarmy commercial crap doing here? For your sake, I hope this was yet another unintentional posting because otherwise it constitutes blatant spamming. Get control of your computer, for crying out loud, or unplug it! O.S. At 10:41 PM 7/24/00 -0400, you wrote: >Vicente and others: >Successories is a chain of stores here in the U.S. that publishes >beautiful and inspirational items for offices. They specialize in >wonderful and challenging quotes on attitude, teamwork, integrity, etc. > >You can find their web site at http://www.successories.com > >http://www.successories.com/prodetail.asp?nav_id_store=&nav_id_top=&nav_id_ left=1&group_id=2&theme_id=&nav_id_browse=&sku=734308 > >This is the link to show you the exact Magellan print and quote to which >I am referring. >I have written them, asking for the source for this quote. I have not >as of yet heard from them. > >my best, >Phil > >-- > > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 05:34:41 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA26168 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:34:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA17810. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:34:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA17806 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:34:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA26161 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:34:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29785; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:34:21 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp69.dyn240.pacific.net.ph [210.23.240.69]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id LAA16393; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:34:20 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <002701bff548$9d9b14e0$a8f117d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Cc: "Howgego" Subject: [EXP] Stanley authorship preference Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 16:23:31 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO What was Stanley's argument? If he had a strong case, I would expect his title would be A Description of the Coasts of East Africa and Malabar in the Beginning of the Sixteenth Century by Ferdinand Magellan, and argue his case against Duarte Barbosa in his prologue. The Real Sociedad Geografica at least put their money where their mouth was, assigned authorship to Magellan, not playing it both ways, affording the rest of the world the chance to argue whichever way. I'm interested to know Stanley's argument. I don't have a copy of his book. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 07:21:28 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA29816 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:21:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id HAA17974. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:21:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA17970 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:21:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f293.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.240.87] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA29809 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:20:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:20:27 -0700 Received: from 207.109.22.73 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.109.22.73] From: "michael zalar" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] a visit to America in 1500 , of Danes? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:20:27 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jul 2000 05:20:27.0570 (UTC) FILETIME=[0B0C1920:01BFF5F8] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > >do you know anything of a visit to north america in 1500 >of an expedition of "Normans [Norwegians?], Dutchs and > Danes"? .This expedition was from Greenland to Labrador, if >it existed... > > >Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es > I found the following in the Old Norse Net archives regarding Deighton Rock, ( http://humserv1.hum.gu.se/arkiv/ONN/1996/ONN.02/0120.html ) which may have some relevance. I can certainly imagine Miguel Corte Real tapping into some of the same sources as his father, which appears to have had such a mixed crew. Or perhaps your source is confusing the 1500 Miguel Corte Real voyage with the earlier voyage by Joao vas Corte Real Information here (not cited as this was not my main point of interest) does bring certain information that perhaps it had been built by both Portuguese and Scandinavians somewhere in the period of 1480 to 1511, and here is the story that leads to this supposition; Records seem to show that around 1470 King Alphonso VI of Portugal and King Christian I of Denmark formed a treaty to explore west of Iceland. At this time European ties were much stronger than today and Iceland was a recognized and viable nation in mainland eyes - strong connections to the Vatican, for instance. Portugal was in process of systematic explorations in all directions; towards India is well documented but also sweeping the Atlantic and discovering the offshore islands of the Azores and others. It looks to me that they may have discovered Bermuda as well. Common sense indicates the purpose of this treaty - that Portuguese cartographers were interested in the north Atlantic as they were in all other areas and the most logical course of action was to turn to Scandinavia for intimate knowledge acquired over the years. I am not sure if Iceland was a colony of Denmark at this time but at any rate the Danes surely were as familiar with the northern seas as anyone else. >From what I can gather the terms of the treaty were that the ships and crews of the expedition(s) were to be provided by King Christian I and that Portuguese interests would be overseen by one Joao ("Yorra") vas Corte Real, apparently a Portuguese nobleman with nautical connections. It might be noted here that the major base of Portuguese explorations was at Sagres, near Gibraltar, the port of which is at Lagos, a few miles away. Just a few miles west of Lagos is Palos, Spain, both places intimately familiar to Christopher Columbus, the former a place of salvation to him after his swim to shore in 1476, the latter his port of departure in 1492. My own mind is intrigued at this remarkable coincidence of geography at this particular date, especially when Columbus himself claimed he had been in the northern seas ("Thule") in 1477. What appears here is that an unemployed and likely desperate Columbus was in the exact port when an expedition was fitting out for that precise destination. Anyway, the party eventually did make an exploration with three Danish ships whose pilots were two Germans, Pining and Pothorst and one Norwegian, Johan Scolp. They were successful in passing Iceland and certainly reached Greenland and many historians claim Newfoundland itself. The trip seems to have been successful, for one of the Germans (Pining?) was rewarded with the Governorship of Iceland, the other an influential position in the Frisian Islands and Skolp becoming a noted geographer remarked at least six times in medieval documents. Joao vas Corte Real was rewarded with the Governorship of Terciera in the Azores which was in process then of pioneer settlement, having been recently discovered. It might be noted in context of what follows is that these pioneer settlers were not primarily Portuguese nationals but people hailing from Flanders, then the "netherlands" of Denmark. This must have been part of the Regal Treaty in some way and almost certainly in part personnel, families and crews of his expedition. (Could it be possible that some of them may have been Greenlanders?) It is true that Joao vas Corte Real's destination in the New World is indefinite but this is not the end of the story. It seems that Joao vas Corte Real had two sons with exploratory ambitions of their own. In 1498(?) they set out on an expedition in some way a duplicate of their fathers, doubtless to refine or extend the courses. Certainly they were privy to all the navigational material developed by their father. At some point their two ships separated by agreement with Miguel exploring north along Labrador or Greenland and Gaspar exploring south. After a year the ships rejoined at Newfoundland, shared information and then Miguel returned to Portugal with Gaspar remaining and returning to his prior destination or for further explorations. Now, at this rejoinder, Gaspar transmitted two clues as to where he had been (that have survived - certainly detail was more complete for the reports). He said that the natives who lived in that southerly place lived about "--a league inland", that they had "greenish eyes" (could he have meant, possibly, Greenland type European eyes?), and that they were born white and turned dark and wrinkled in age from exposure to weather. Except for eye color these are characteristics of the Narragansett Indians at about 42 deg. north latitude whom I have identified in my earlier papers so we might be amanable to the suggestion that Gaspar had reached Narragansett Bay. Well, what happened is that nothing further was ever heard from Gaspar. Evidently he was expected to return to Portugal but he never arrived and little trace of him ever surfaced. I say "little" as we will see that perhaps some sign of him has survived indirectly. A few years later brother Miguel mounted another expedition with the purpose of locating for rescue or Christian burial of the lost Gaspar. This expedition as it happens also disappeared into the mists of the Atlantic and nothing further ever was ever heard of it - in Europe. But it may be there there is documentation on the American side, especially in combination of the suggestion that Gaspar may have reached Narragansett Bay in 1499 or 50. There is a famous and preserved carven stone in a place called Dighton, Massachusetts which has come under intent study over the centuries it has been known. Among the most thorough and comprehensive are Portuguese-Americans, Dr. Manuel da Silva and Prof. Edmund Burke Delabarre (Brown Univ.) who translate some of the carvings to say, "Miguel Corte Real, 1511" accompanied with several of the Portuguese "Quinna" (heraldric shields) in close comparisons with other known Portuguese markers in south American and Africa. I have seen the stone both "in situ" and in its present museum close by and agree that Dr. Delabarre's analysis might well be correct. Dighton, Massachusetts can only be reached by water through Narragansett Bay with passage close to or immediately past Newport Harbor. It is located at about the limit of navigation where the extended branch of the bay called Taunton River narrows and becomes impassable except to small craft. So with the story, the clues, and the evidence it seems plausible that Portuguese seaman, almost certainly accompanied by Scandinavians, entered Narragansett Bay possibly in 1511, possibly in 1500, and speculatively so early as 1478. Here they were, it seems, and why here and what did they do? > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 07:49:56 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA00464 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:49:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id HAA18066. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:49:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA18062 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:49:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA00458 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:49:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24432; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:49:09 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default ([210.23.245.156]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id NAA28209; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:49:02 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <002b01bff55b$704d33c0$9cf517d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Cc: References: <3.0.6.32.20000724202018.0098f560@mail.mcn.org> Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:38:30 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: Oliver Seeler To: Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories What's this awful smarmy commercial crap doing here? For your sake, I hope this was yet another unintentional posting because otherwise it constitutes blatant spamming. Get control of your computer, for crying out loud, or unplug it! O.S. I'm not going to call it crap. But if the Magellan quote is an example of what Successories call the "beautiful and inspirational" I invite them to reread the beautiful and inspirational children's story the emperor's clothes. If Successories cannot or will not tell you their source, they should learn a thing or two from the life of Ferdinand Marcos. He applied the science of mushroom growing in governance; he kept us in the dark and fed us shit. You know what happened to him. At 10:41 PM 7/24/00 -0400, you wrote: >Vicente and others: >Successories is a chain of stores here in the U.S. that publishes >beautiful and inspirational items for offices. They specialize in >wonderful and challenging quotes on attitude, teamwork, integrity, etc. > >You can find their web site at http://www.successories.com > >http://www.successories.com/prodetail.asp?nav_id_store=&nav_id_top=&nav_id_ left=1&group_id=2&theme_id=&nav_id_browse=&sku=734308 > >This is the link to show you the exact Magellan print and quote to which >I am referring. >I have written them, asking for the source for this quote. I have not >as of yet heard from them. > >my best, >Phil > >-- > > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 10:27:09 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA06563 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:27:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA18337. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:26:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA18330 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:26:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA06541 (SMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:26:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 44350 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2000 08:26:35 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 2000 08:26:35 -0000 Message-ID: <397D4E77.567048F0@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:23:19 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re: Duarte Barbosa and Magellan References: <000901bff3f7$2a58d640$def017d2@default> <397B1D09.BF83FF66@easynet.co.uk> <001b01bff52e$177c8340$22f017d2@default> <397CF175.164B175B@bcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Thanks to Martin Torodash for reminding me of the two, quite different, Duarte Barbosas. The one referred to by Lord Stanley was, I assume, the relative of Magellan who was killed in the Cebu-Mactan conflict of 1521. The other, author of the famous "Book of Duarte Barbosa", was the nephew of Diego Barbosa, warden of the castle of Seville. He sailed to India with Cabral in 1500, accompanied by his uncle, Goncalo Gil Barbosa. He spent much of the remainder of his life as an official in India and died (probably at Cannanore) in 1545 or 1546. Unfortunately, Lord Stanley's translation is one of the few Hakluyt Society editions which I do not have. It is presently on the shelf of a London bookseller for 250 pounds sterling ! Yes, I agree very much with Mr. Torodash that many of the first series Hakluyt Society editions lack scholarship. Some of them (particularly those of Clements Markham) seem to be thrown together almost randomly, their titles often bearing little relationship to what's actually between their covers. Even so, they remain as works of exceptional importance, at the least in providing the groundwork for subsequent research. And much of what they contained had never before appeared in English and was unknown to scholarship at large. The confusion over so many documents bearing titles like "Description of the coasts of... ", was largely a result of the Iberian protectiveness over their discoveries which prevented publication of these documents until many years after they had been written, by which time the names of their authors were largely a matter of guesswork. I also have on record two other accounts of the Magellan voyage: The paper book of a Genoese pilot, reproduced in Thatcher, Oliver J. (ed.): The library of original sources, vol. 5 (Milwaukee 1907). The diary of "Mestro Bautista", reproduced in Carvalho, Nunhez de: Noticias para la historia e geographica das nacoes ultramarinas (Lisbon 1831). The former document has been published on the Internet, but I have not seen the latter. I would be grateful if Mr. Torodash could provide me with the bibliographic reference(s) to the diary of Gines de Mafra, of which I have no record. Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 11:03:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA08655 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:03:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id LAA18414. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:03:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA18410 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:03:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lorica.ucc.usyd.edu.au [129.78.64.15] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA08646 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:03:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.usyd.edu.au (p6258.net10.usyd.edu.au [10.0.24.114]) by lorica.ucc.usyd.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28533 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:02:57 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <397D57F2.1E033986@mail.usyd.edu.au> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:03:46 +1000 From: Robin Anscomb X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] (no subject) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Does anybody on this list have any information that would lead me to sources, such as a biography or dissertations, concerning two English navigators, Thomas Barlow or Robert Thorne, who flourished about 1530 - 1560. It is not much to go on I know, but it is all I have at the moment. Robin Anscomb From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 12:08:03 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA11407 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:08:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id MAA18465. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:07:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA18461 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:07:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA11389 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:07:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13064; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:05:58 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default ([210.23.245.217]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id SAA14886; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:05:57 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <001101bff57f$50e37980$d9f517d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Cc: "Howgego" References: <000901bff3f7$2a58d640$def017d2@default> <397B1D09.BF83FF66@easynet.co.uk> <001b01bff52e$177c8340$22f017d2@default> <397CF175.164B175B@bcn.net> Subject: Re: [EXP] Magellan quote Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:55:00 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: Overlee Farm Books To: Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [EXP] Magellan quote "vicente c. de jesus" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray Howgego > To: > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 12:27 AM > Subject: Re: [EXP] Magellan quote > > Lord Stanley of Alderley, who translated "A description of the coasts of > East Africa and Malabar . by Duarte Barbosa; translated from a > manuscript in the Barcelona Library (c. 1514)", actually favoured > Magellan as the author of this work. It was published by the Hakluyt > Society in 1866. > > Is this the same as the Real Sociedad Geografica's edition of the > "Descripcion de los reinos, costas, puertos e islas ... " ? > > A quite different translation of Duarte Barbosa was published by the > Hakluyt Society in 1918-21, the well known Mansel Longworth Dames > edition. > > It's very possible the Real Sociedad Geografica account and the Hakluyt > account by Duarte Barbosa may be one and the same. I'm looking for both > Hakluyt editions in a library here in the Philippines. A check with one > library is has the largest collection of Hakluyt books turned up negative. > > In the Real Sociedad Geografica book, there is another account by a seaman > who was with Magellan's voyage. His name is Gines de Mafra. It is little > known although a number of navigation historians and Magellan scholars refer > to it. Morison mistakenly says the account is in Navarette, vol. 4. It's > not, what Navarette has are signed affidavits executed by Mafra right after > his release from prison in January 1527. Ironically, this account is > virtually unknown in the Philippines. Our National Historical Institute > dismissed it as a fake. I have yet to come across a Western expert who > doubts its authenticity. Is there anyone out there who has done work on > Mafra? > > But, back to Stover's Magellan quote. There do not see quotes of a > philosophizing nature in Pigafetta, Albo, the Genoese Pilot or Mafra. Is it > possible it is in Barros? He and other contemporaneous Portuguese historians > had access to papers taken from Trinidad among which may have been the notes > and writings of Magellan. In Joyner's biography, there are long passages > from Andres de San Martin quoting Magellan. > > Another long shot is McKew Parr or Stefan Zweig. These contain thoughts and > spoken words attributed to Magellan that are hard to trace to an original > source. Also, the quote sounds grandiloquent, eminently quotable it is > mystifying it has not gained the kind of fame that would have established > its provenance the very moment it was uttered or had seen print. > > But, before we go on further. What is Successories? I am the author of "Magellan Historiography," HISPANIC AMERICAN HISTORICAL REVIEW, Vol. LI, No. 2 (May, 1971), pp. 313-335 which was updated as the opening chapter in THE PORTUGUESE AND THE PACIFIC (Santa Barbara: Univ. of California, 1995). In the original historiographical essay I noted that Lord Stanley's translations "must be used with discrimination because [he wrote] at a time when standards of scholarship were not as rigorous as they are today." On page 318 I refer to the DECADAS DA ASIA of Joao de Barros and note that "he may even have used the lost account of the voyage written by Magellan" prior to his death on Mactan. Regarding Gines de Mafra who eventually returned to Spain in 1527, he left an account which has been published. However, I also noted that Martin Fernandez de Navarrete maintained that it cannot be based on more than Mafra's memory of what he might have read in a TRATADO begun by Andres de San Martin who sailedas pilot and astronomer and was one of those murdered three days after Magellan. It should also be kept in mind during this discussion that there were AT LEAST two men by the name of Duarte Barbosa; one has been variously described as the brother-in-law or cousin, by marriage, of Magellan. Again, I would advise caution in utilizing Lord Stanley's translation and certainly would repeat that advice with regard to the many translations of Sir Clements R. Markham. Martin Torodash Martin Torodash has brought up an interesting point about Mafra. Donald D. Brand used exactly the very words of Navarette, without quotes, that Descripcion de los reinos..."could not be based on more than Mafra's memory of what he might have read in a Tratado begun by San Martin." The impossibility of proving this assertion is quite obvious. The papers of San Martin were lost in the Lisbon earthquare of 1755 perhaps earlier, and unless these are somehow resurrected it will forever remain pure speculation. But even if we grant Mafra is merely repeating San Martin's words and observations, that does not detract Mafra's worth. On the contrary, Mafra becomes more credible and authoritative as his report reflects the shared observations of two masterful pilots--in the case of Martin, he is reputedly a genius in his ability to determine longitude with precision. This point is critical particularly with respect to Mafra's testimony on Mazaua, Magellan's landfall of 28 March-April 4, 1521. He describes Mazaua in terms that cannot be reconciled with our present notion of that isle. Indeed if Mafra is correct, and all other testimonies by Pigafetta, Albo and the Genoese Pilot are consistent with Mafra's, Mazaua is not Limasawa, the isle believed to be the perfect, exact, total equal of Mazaua. Incredible as it may seem--and Mafra's observations will bear this--Limasawa has no anchorage, worse, it is a lee shore. If we draw the lines of evidence and extend these, they all converge in the Genoese Pilot's latitude 9o N as the location of Mazaua. A historian (John Schumacher, S.J.) here has unfortunately dismissed the Genoese Pilot, using Torodash throwaway remark that his roteiro is boring and useless. I would like to think Mr. Torodash had not intended to write off the Genoese Pilot's account purely on its lack of potential as material for a Speilberg blockbuster. Torodash's "Magellan Historiography" is standard source in any Magellan discussion. However, I have failed to find a library here that has it. In lieu of this, Dr. Donald D. Brand's listing of Magellanic literature is excellent. It is found in his article Geographical Exploration by the Spaniards, in: The Pacific Basin, A History of Its Geographical Exploration, ed. Herman R. Friis, American Geographical Society, 1967. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 13:02:07 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA13756 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:02:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA18545. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:01:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA18541 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:01:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id NAA02813. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:01:44 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200007251101.NAA02813@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Barlow and Thorne In-Reply-To: <397D57F2.1E033986@mail.usyd.edu.au> from Robin Anscomb at "Jul 25, 2000 7: 3:46 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:01:44 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Robin Anscomb wrote: > Does anybody on this list have any information that would lead me to > sources, such as a biography or dissertations, concerning two English > navigators, Thomas Barlow or Robert Thorne, who flourished about 1530 - > 1560. > It is not much to go on I know, but it is all I have at the moment. First, Barlow and Thorne were among the first and most important proponents of a northern (polar, northeastern or northwestern) route to Asia. Thorne is the author of the famous quote that there is "no land unihabitable, nor sea innavigable". Here are some sources I have found. The sources with a * are in my own possession, and thus I can give some more information on and/or quotes from them, if wanted. Barlow's work appears in: R. Barlow: A Brief Somme of Geographie. 1542. British Library Royal Manuscript 18.B E.G.R. Taylor (ed.): A Brief Somme of Geographie. London, 1932. Thorne's in: R. Hakluyt: Divers voyages touching the discoverie of America. London, 1582. R. Hakluyt: Divers voyages (...). Hakluyt Society, 1850. R. Hakluyt: Principall navigations voiages and discoveries of the English nation. London, 1582. R. Hakluyt: Principal navigations (...) Volume I, London, 1589. Everyman Library (ed.): The Principal Navigations, Traffiques & Discoveries etc. Volume 1. Glasgow: J. MacLehose & Sons, 1903. I myself have information in the following books: C. Holland (ed.): Farthest North. A History of North Polar Exploration in Eye-Witness Acccounts. New York: Carroll & Graf (1994). H. Wallis: England's Search for the Northern Passages in the Sixteenth and Early Seventeenth Centuries. Arctic 37:4, December 1984, pp. 452-472 -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 06:38:38 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA28012 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 06:38:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id GAA17868. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 06:38:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA17864 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 06:38:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA07617 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 06:38:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.43.242.230]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16196; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:50:58 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000725133842.00d08c40@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:44:32 +0900 To: kexpat@uriel.net, , From: Henny Savenije Subject: [EXP] Archeology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The story behind the letter below is that there is this nutball in Newport, RI named Scott Williams who digs things out of his backyard and sends the stuff he finds to the Smithsonian Institute, labeling them with scientific names, insisting that they are actual archaeological finds. This guy really exists and does this in his spare time! Anyway...here's the actual response from the Smithsonian Institution. Bear this in mind next time you think you are challenged in your duty to respond to a difficult situation in writing. Personally, I believe that although this guy really deserves to show up on a 2000 Darwin Awards Nominee list, the world would probably be a much duller place without him. Smithsonian Institute 207 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington, DC 20078 Dear Mr. Williams: Thank you for your latest submission to the Institute, labeled "93211-D, layer seven, next to the clothesline post...Hominid skull." We have given this specimen a careful and detailed examination, and regret to inform you that we disagree with your theory that it represents conclusive proof of the presence of Early Man in Charleston County two million years ago. Rather, it appears that what you have found is the head of a Barbie doll, of the variety that one of our staff, who has small children, believes to be "Malibu Barbie." It is evident that you have given a great deal of thought to the analysis of this specimen, and you may be quite certain that those of us who are familiar with your prior work in the field were loathe to come to contradiction with your findings. However, we do feel that there are a number of physical attributes of the specimen which might have tipped you off to its modern origin: 1. The material is molded plastic. Ancient hominid remains are typically fossilized bone. 2. The cranial capacity of the specimen is approximately 9 cubic centimeters, well below the threshold of even the earliest identified proto-homonids. 3. The dentition pattern evident on the skull is more consistent with the common domesticated dog than it is with the ravenous man-eating Pliocene clams you speculate roamed the wetlands during that time. This latter finding is certainly one of the most intriguing hypotheses you have submitted in your history with this institution, but the evidence seems to weigh rather heavily against it. Without going into too much detail, let us say that: A. The specimen looks like the head of a Barbie doll that a dog has chewed on. B. Clams don't have teeth. It is with feelings tinged with melancholy that we must deny your request to have the specimen carbon-dated. This is partially due to the heavy load our lab must bear in its normal operation, and partly due to carbon-dating's notorious inaccuracy in fossils of recent geologic record. To the best of our knowledge, no Barbie dolls were produced prior to 1956 AD, and carbon-dating is likely to produce wildly inaccurate results. Sadly, we must also deny your request that we approach the National Science Foundation Phylogeny Department with the concept of assigning your specimen the scientific name Australopithecus spiff-arino. Speaking personally, I, for one, fought tenaciously for the acceptance of your proposed taxonomy, but was ultimately voted down because the species name you selected was hyphenated, and didn't really sound like it might be Latin. However, we gladly accept your generous donation of this fascinating specimen to the museum. While it is undoubtedly not a Hominid fossil, it is, nonetheless, yet another riveting example of the great body of work you seem to accumulate here so effortlessly. You should know that our Director has reserved a special shelf in his own office for the display of the specimens you have previously submitted to the Institution, and the entire staff speculates daily on what you will happen upon next in your digs at the site you have discovered in your Newport back yard. We eagerly anticipate your trip to our nation's capital that you proposed in your last letter, and several of us are pressing the Director to pay for it. We are particularly interested in hearing you expand on your theories surrounding the trans-positating fillifitation of ferrous ions in a structural matrix that makes the excellent juvenile Tyrannosaurus rex femur you recently discovered take on the deceptive appearance of a rusty 9-mm Sears Craftsman automotive crescent wrench. Yours in Science, Harvey Rowe Chief Curator-Antiquities ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 15:28:07 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA19739 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:28:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA18702. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:27:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA18698 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:27:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.51] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA08974 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:27:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.136.223]) by mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000725132628.UEAX9297.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com>; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:26:28 +0000 Message-ID: <397D95C4.3363763F@portolangroup.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:27:32 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: oseeler@mcn.org, "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories References: <3.0.6.32.20000724202018.0098f560@mail.mcn.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------043FEA1055762172E80E652B" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO --------------043FEA1055762172E80E652B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sir: I do not know who you are or where you come from, but I must demand a public apology from you to me on the discovery list. Your comments are rude, offensive and totally out of context with the ongoing chain of discussion regarding Magellan. My message regarding Successories was in direct response to a question asked by Senor Vicente C de Jesus from the Philippines, asking me to explain what Successories is. The context was my original skepticism regarding a print they are selling with a supposed quote from Magellan. This whole Magellan chain of messages came from that question. Not only was I not advertising for Successories by my message, I was being critical of them. Our list members who do not live in the United States do not know what Successories is. I was merely explaining to them what it is, showing them the Magellan quote and print that is in question and that started the entire discourse. I resent the innuendo, especially since it only reflects negatively on you. You obviously have no idea of the thread of messages that have been going on. You jumped in, popped off, and now will probably not be heard from on this subject again. I will not be as rude to you in my response as you were to me in your comments. My best, Phil Stover Oliver Seeler wrote: > What's this awful smarmy commercial crap doing here? For your sake, I hope > this was yet another unintentional posting because otherwise it constitutes > blatant spamming. Get control of your computer, for crying out loud, or > unplug it! > > O.S. > > At 10:41 PM 7/24/00 -0400, you wrote: > >Vicente and others: > >Successories is a chain of stores here in the U.S. that publishes > >beautiful and inspirational items for offices. They specialize in > >wonderful and challenging quotes on attitude, teamwork, integrity, etc. > > > >You can find their web site at http://www.successories.com > > > >http://www.successories.com/prodetail.asp?nav_id_store=&nav_id_top=&nav_id_ > left=1&group_id=2&theme_id=&nav_id_browse=&sku=734308 > > > >This is the link to show you the exact Magellan print and quote to which > >I am referring. > >I have written them, asking for the source for this quote. I have not > >as of yet heard from them. > > > >my best, > >Phil > > > >-- > > > > > > > > -- --------------043FEA1055762172E80E652B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sir:
I do not know who you are or where you come from, but I must demand a public apology from you to me on the discovery list.

Your comments are rude, offensive and totally out of context with the ongoing chain of discussion regarding Magellan.

My message regarding Successories was in direct response to a question asked by Senor Vicente C de Jesus from the Philippines, asking me to explain what Successories is.   The context was my original skepticism regarding a print they are selling with a supposed quote from Magellan.  This whole Magellan chain of messages came from that question.

Not only was I not advertising for Successories by my message, I was being critical of them.  Our list members who do not live in the United States do not know what Successories is.  I was merely explaining to them what it is, showing them the Magellan quote and print that is in question and that started the entire discourse.

I resent the innuendo, especially since it only reflects negatively on you.  You obviously have no idea of the thread of messages that have been going on.  You jumped in, popped off, and now will probably not be heard from on this subject again.

I will not be as rude to you in my response as you were to me in your comments.

My best,
Phil Stover

Oliver Seeler wrote:

What's this awful smarmy commercial crap doing here? For your sake, I hope
this was yet another unintentional posting because otherwise it constitutes
blatant spamming. Get control of your computer, for crying out loud, or
unplug it!

                O.S.

At 10:41 PM 7/24/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Vicente and others:
>Successories is a chain of stores here in the U.S. that publishes
>beautiful and inspirational items for offices.  They specialize in
>wonderful and challenging quotes on attitude, teamwork, integrity, etc.
>
>You can find their web site at    http://www.successories.com
>
>http://www.successories.com/prodetail.asp?nav_id_store=&nav_id_top=&nav_id_
left=1&group_id=2&theme_id=&nav_id_browse=&sku=734308
>
>This is the link to show you the exact Magellan print and quote to which
>I am referring.
>I have written them, asking for the source for this quote.  I have not
>as of yet heard from them.
>
>my best,
>Phil
>
>--
>
>
>
>

--
  --------------043FEA1055762172E80E652B-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 16:36:33 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA22555 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:36:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA18822. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:36:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA18818 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:36:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA22547 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:36:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [165.247.24.120] (user-2ive63o.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.24.120]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16976 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:35:58 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:31:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories From: ralph To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <397D95C4.3363763F@portolangroup.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3047365878_558698_MIME_Part" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3047365878_558698_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Phil: I couldn't agree with you more. I had never heard of Successories, and I live in the USA. As the unfortunate Mr. Steele has so amply demonstrated; little knowledge is a dangerous (or in this case, ignorant) thing. Regards, Ralph Salomon From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:27:32 -0400 To: oseeler@mcn.org, "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories Sir: I do not know who you are or where you come from, but I must demand a public apology from you to me on the discovery list. Your comments are rude, offensive and totally out of context with the ongoing chain of discussion regarding Magellan. My message regarding Successories was in direct response to a question asked by Senor Vicente C de Jesus from the Philippines, asking me to explain what Successories is. The context was my original skepticism regarding a print they are selling with a supposed quote from Magellan. This whole Magellan chain of messages came from that question. Not only was I not advertising for Successories by my message, I was being critical of them. Our list members who do not live in the United States do not know what Successories is. I was merely explaining to them what it is, showing them the Magellan quote and print that is in question and that started the entire discourse. I resent the innuendo, especially since it only reflects negatively on you. You obviously have no idea of the thread of messages that have been going on. You jumped in, popped off, and now will probably not be heard from on this subject again. I will not be as rude to you in my response as you were to me in your comments. My best, Phil Stover Oliver Seeler wrote: What's this awful smarmy commercial crap doing here? For your sake, I hope this was yet another unintentional posting because otherwise it constitutes blatant spamming. Get control of your computer, for crying out loud, or unplug it! O.S. At 10:41 PM 7/24/00 -0400, you wrote: >Vicente and others: >Successories is a chain of stores here in the U.S. that publishes >beautiful and inspirational items for offices. They specialize in >wonderful and challenging quotes on attitude, teamwork, integrity, etc. > >You can find their web site at http://www.successories.com > >http://www.successories.com/prodetail.asp?nav_id_store=&nav_id_top=&nav_id_ left=1&group_id=2&theme_id=&nav_id_browse=&sku=734308 > >This is the link to show you the exact Magellan print and quote to which >I am referring. >I have written them, asking for the source for this quote. I have not >as of yet heard from them. > >my best, >Phil > >-- > > > > -- --MS_Mac_OE_3047365878_558698_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [EXP] Successories Hi Phil:

I couldn't agree with you more.  I had never heard of Successories, an= d I live in the USA.  As the unfortunate Mr. Steele has so amply demons= trated; little knowledge is a dangerous (or in this case, ignorant) thing.
Regards,
Ralph Salomon


From: Phil Stover <pstover@portolangroup.com>
Organization: The Portolan Group
Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:27:32 -0400
To: oseeler@mcn.org, "discovery@win.tue.nl" <discovery@= win.tue.nl>
Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories


Sir:
I do not know who you are or where you come from, but I must demand a publi= c apology from you to me on the discovery list.

Your comments are rude, offensive and totally out of context with the ongoi= ng chain of discussion regarding Magellan.

My message regarding Successories was in direct response to a question aske= d by Senor Vicente C de Jesus from the Philippines, asking me to explain wha= t Successories is.   The context was my original skepticism regard= ing a print they are selling with a supposed quote from Magellan. This whole= Magellan chain of messages came from that question.

Not only was I not advertising for Successories by my message, I was being = critical of them.  Our list members who do not live in the United State= s do not know what Successories is.  I was merely explaining to them wh= at it is, showing them the Magellan quote and print that is in question and = that started the entire discourse.

I resent the innuendo, especially since it only reflects negatively on you.=  You obviously have no idea of the thread of messages that have been g= oing on.  You jumped in, popped off, and now will probably not be heard= from on this subject again.

I will not be as rude to you in my response as you were to me in your comme= nts.

My best,
Phil Stover

Oliver Seeler wrote:
What's this awful smarmy commercial crap doing here? For your s= ake, I hope
this was yet another unintentional posting because otherwise it constitutes=
blatant spamming. Get control of your computer, for crying out loud, or unplug it!

            &n= bsp; O.S.

At 10:41 PM 7/24/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Vicente and others:
>Successories is a chain of stores here in the U.S. that publishes
>beautiful and inspirational items for offices.  They specialize in=
>wonderful and challenging quotes on attitude, teamwork, integrity, etc.=
>
>You can find their web site at    http://www.successorie= s.com
>
>http://www.successories.com/prodetail.asp?nav_id_store=3D&nav_id_top=3D= &nav_id_
left=3D1&group_id=3D2&theme_id=3D&nav_id_browse=3D&sku=3D734308
>
>This is the link to show you the exact Magellan print and quote to whic= h
>I am referring.
>I have written them, asking for the source for this quote.  I have= not
>as of yet heard from them.
>
>my best,
>Phil
>
>--
>
>
>
>
--


--MS_Mac_OE_3047365878_558698_MIME_Part-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 17:22:41 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA24625 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:22:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA18885. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:22:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA18881 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:22:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lynx.ncia.net [208.197.116.10] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA09273 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:22:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ncia.net (lac-flex189.ncia.net [208.197.116.189]) by lynx.ncia.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11511 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:22:18 -0400 Message-ID: <397DAFBA.A50F935F@ncia.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:18:18 -0400 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Archeology References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000725133842.00d08c40@pop3.demon.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Henry: This is the most humorous message I can ever recall seeing on this List or any other. It deserves a larger reading audience -- perhaps the New Yorker? Imagine the laughter and fun that was had at the Smithsonian when this letter was composed! Thank you for sending it. Dick Burack Henny Savenije wrote: > > The story behind the letter below is that there is this nutball in Newport, > RI named Scott Williams who digs things out of his backyard and sends the > stuff he finds to the Smithsonian Institute, labeling them with scientific > names, insisting that they are actual archaeological finds. This guy really > exists and does this in his spare time! Anyway...here's the actual > response from the Smithsonian Institution. Bear this in mind next time you > think you are challenged in your duty to respond to a difficult situation > in writing. Personally, I believe that although this guy really deserves > to show up on a 2000 Darwin Awards Nominee list, the world would probably > be a much duller place without him. > > Smithsonian Institute > 207 Pennsylvania Avenue > Washington, DC 20078 > > Dear Mr. Williams: > Thank you for your latest submission to the Institute, labeled "93211-D, > layer seven, next to the clothesline post...Hominid skull." We have given > this specimen a careful and detailed examination, and regret to inform you > that we disagree with your theory that it represents conclusive proof of > the presence of Early Man in Charleston County two million years ago. > Rather, it appears that what you have found is the head of a Barbie doll, > of the variety that one of our staff, who has small children, believes to > be "Malibu Barbie." It is evident that you have given a great deal of > thought to the analysis of this specimen, and you may be quite certain that > those of us who are familiar with your prior work in the field were loathe > to come to contradiction with your findings. However, we do feel that > there are a number of physical attributes of the specimen which might have > tipped you off to its modern origin: > 1. The material is molded plastic. Ancient hominid remains are > typically fossilized bone. > 2. The cranial capacity of the specimen is approximately 9 cubic > centimeters, well below the threshold of even the earliest identified > proto-homonids. > 3. The dentition pattern evident on the skull is more consistent > with the common domesticated dog than it is with the ravenous man-eating > Pliocene clams you speculate roamed the wetlands during that time. > This latter finding is certainly one of the most intriguing hypotheses you > have submitted in your history with this institution, but the evidence > seems to weigh rather heavily against it. Without going into too much > detail, let us say that: > A. The specimen looks like the head of a Barbie doll that a dog has > chewed on. > B. Clams don't have teeth. > > It is with feelings tinged with melancholy that we must deny your request > to have the specimen carbon-dated. This is partially due to the heavy > load our lab must bear in its normal operation, and partly due to > carbon-dating's notorious inaccuracy in fossils of recent geologic record. > To the best of our knowledge, no Barbie dolls were produced prior to 1956 > AD, and carbon-dating is likely to produce wildly inaccurate results. > Sadly, we must also deny your request that we approach the National Science > Foundation Phylogeny Department with the concept of assigning > your specimen the scientific name Australopithecus spiff-arino. Speaking > personally, I, for one, fought tenaciously for the acceptance of your > proposed taxonomy, but was ultimately voted down because the species name > you selected was hyphenated, and didn't really sound like it might be Latin. > However, we gladly accept your generous donation of this fascinating > specimen to the museum. While it is undoubtedly not a Hominid fossil, it > is, nonetheless, yet another riveting example of the great body of work you > seem to accumulate here so effortlessly. You should know that our Director > has reserved a special shelf in his own office for the display of the > specimens you have previously submitted to the Institution, and the entire > staff speculates daily on what you will happen upon next in your digs at > the site you have discovered in your Newport back yard. We eagerly > anticipate your trip to our nation's capital that you proposed in your last > letter, and several of us are pressing the Director to pay for it. > We are particularly interested in hearing you expand on your theories > surrounding the trans-positating fillifitation of ferrous ions in a > structural matrix that makes the excellent juvenile Tyrannosaurus rex femur > you recently discovered take on the deceptive appearance of a rusty 9-mm > Sears Craftsman automotive crescent wrench. > Yours in Science, > > Harvey Rowe > Chief Curator-Antiquities > ----------------------------- > Henny (Lee Hae Kang) > > Feel free to visit > http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl > and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) > In Korean > http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 17:31:22 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA24876 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:31:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA18894. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:31:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA18890 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:31:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f154.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.154] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA24868 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:31:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:30:40 -0700 Received: from 12.13.238.139 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.139] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] a visit to America in 1500 , of Danes? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:30:40 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jul 2000 15:30:40.0106 (UTC) FILETIME=[49D1BCA0:01BFF64D] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Sounds like it might be a reference to the Pining-Pothorst voyage to Greenland (1470s) or the spurious Pining-Pothorst-Corte Real-Scolvus voyage to Greenland and Labrador. Greg McIntosh > >do you know anything of a visit to north america in 1500 >of an expedition of "Normans [Norwegians?], Dutchs and > Danes"? .This expedition was from Greenland to Labrador, if >it existed... > > >Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 17:42:05 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA25099 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:42:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA18906. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:41:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA18902 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:41:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f150.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.150] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA09319 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:41:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:41:17 -0700 Received: from 12.13.238.139 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.139] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] (no subject) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:41:17 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jul 2000 15:41:17.0852 (UTC) FILETIME=[C5F20DC0:01BFF64E] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Almost any book on John Cabot, such as those by J. A. Williamson, discuss the 1527 woodcut map of Robert Thorne the Younger. Perhaps a place to start. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com > >Does anybody on this list have any information that would lead me to >sources, such as a biography or dissertations, concerning two English >navigators, Thomas Barlow or Robert Thorne, who flourished about 1530 - >1560. >It is not much to go on I know, but it is all I have at the moment. > >Robin Anscomb > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-frc@trolltech.com Tue Jul 25 17:51:06 2000 Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA25266 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:51:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lupinella.troll.no [195.0.254.19] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA09353 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:51:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by trolltech.com id ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:50:50 +0200 Sender: owner-frc@trolltech.com Precedence: list X-Loop: frc Message-ID: <397DB785.457E0AB4@wall.org> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:51:33 -0700 From: Aron Wall X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: frc@trolltech.com Subject: Judgement 143:6 INVALID +3 Style References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Jared Sunshine wrote: > ------ BEGIN 143:6 ------ > The governance of the FRC for this round shall be a kakistocracy, or a rule > by the worst-qualified. > > Anyone with a negative total of style points who is not FRC Poobah is in the > future to be addressed by prefixing "His [or "Her", as appropriate] > Lordship, " to the person's name. Such persons shall be Lords. > > Anyone with a positive total of style points who is not FRC Poobah shall be a > Serf. > > Anyone who is not FRC Poobah with a total of style points equalling zero > shall be a Yeoman. > > At any moment, the FRC Poobah is the person with the most votes having been > cast in eir favor. If there is a tie regarding the largest number of votes, > then all persons possessing the largest number of votes shall be FRC > Poobahs. FRC Poobahs are in the future to be addressed by prefixing "His [or > "Her", as appropriate] Royal Poobahness, " to the person's name. > > The FRC Poobah outranks Lords, who outrank Yeomen, who outrank Serfs. > > ------- END 143:6 ------- > > Following Judge Wall's suggestion that he'll be remarkably generous with a > an on-theme rule, I've decided to have another go at it. In fact, I'll keep > submitting rules till one finally meets with his approval, or I actually am > rendered ineligible. :) Does +3 Style seem remarkably generous to you? Maybe not. But you get it. This rule is also INVALID, because it doesn't vote for the Poohbah. The Judge -- Rule Date: 2000-07-25 15:50:50 GMT From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 18:20:14 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA26775 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:20:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA18960. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:20:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA18956 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:19:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from IDENT:root@pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA26738 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:19:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default.gamewood.net (bhmx0136.pubip.gamewood.net [208.30.87.51]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25143 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:19:50 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000725122124.00a99180@pop.gamewood.net> X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:23:18 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: [EXP] Robert Thorne In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_2681848==_.ALT" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO --=====================_2681848==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hakluyt, Richard Divers Voyages Touching on the Discoverie of America Fairfield, Ye Galleon Press, 1981 (reprint edition- limited issue) This may have something in it. Joel Kovarsky >>Does anybody on this list have any information that would lead me to >>sources, such as a biography or dissertations, concerning two English >>navigators, Thomas Barlow or Robert Thorne, who flourished about 1530 - >>1560. >>It is not much to go on I know, but it is all I have at the moment. >> >>Robin Anscomb > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com --=====================_2681848==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hakluyt, Richard Divers Voyages Touching on the Discoverie of America
Fairfield, Ye Galleon Press, 1981 (reprint edition- limited issue)

   This may have something in it.     Joel Kovarsky




Does anybody on this list have any information that would lead me to
sources, such as a biography or dissertations, concerning two English
navigators, Thomas Barlow or Robert Thorne, who flourished about 1530 -
1560.
It is not much to go on I know, but it is all I have at the moment.

Robin Anscomb

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--=====================_2681848==_.ALT-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 19:43:45 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA29343 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:43:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA19022. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:43:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA19018 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:43:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA29328 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:43:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from Win95 (ha-1o-men-p1-m12.mcn.org [63.193.12.24]) by mail.mcn.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id e6PHh9r19006 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000725103502.009884b0@mail.mcn.org> X-Sender: oseeler@mail.mcn.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:35:02 -0700 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Oliver Seeler Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories In-Reply-To: <397D95C4.3363763F@portolangroup.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000724202018.0098f560@mail.mcn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 09:27 7/25/00 -0400, Phil Stover wrote: > Sir: >I do not know who you are or where you come from, See my already provided sig file. My bona fides are public. I've been on line for over twenty years have written and operate two highly respected specialized web sites that carry no third-party advertising whatsoever and that together are visited by about 10,000 persons per month. I don't like spam or spammers and have low tolerance for those who don't bother to educate themselves about proper use of the net. > but I must demand a public apology from you to me on the discovery list. Demand? I don't think so. See below. >Your comments are rude, offensive and totally out of context with the ongoing > chain of discussion regarding Magellan. They are appropriate to the rude and offensive depositing of thinly disguised unsolicited commercial endorsements into strangers' mailboxes, especially via a mail-list. >Not only was I not advertising for Successories by my message, I was being critical of them. What? I quote your post of yesterday: "Successories is a chain of stores here in the U.S. that publishes beautiful and inspirational items for offices. They specialize in wonderful and challenging quotes on attitude, teamwork, integrity, etc.You can find their web site at http://www.successories.com." That's criticism? Snort!! That's a ringing (albeit badly written) endorsement on a mail-list of an irrelevant commercial enterprise. You must think we're idiots. >Our list members who do not live in the United States do not know what Successories is. Neither, thankfully, do 99.9% of us who do live there. And since when does not living in the US make someone unable to use a search engine or a simple URL, such as the one you listed after your endorsement? At least use an excuse that's not insulting to overseas subscribers. > I was merely explaining to them what it is, With critical terms like "beautiful" and "wonderful" which make your "explanation" a blatant commercial endorsement ... >showing them the Magellan quote and print that is in question and that started the entire > discourse. This whole Magellan chain of messages came from that question. Yes, it did indeed come from your question, which you began by citing the name Successories rather than the quotation - the reverse of the usual order. A technique sometimes used to circumvent the prohibition of commercial activity on Usenet discussion groups, mail-lists and other forums is to initiate a discussion into which a commercial endorsement or mention can be worked. I have no idea if such is the case here, but the touted company can certainly use the exposure - it's a public corporation (Nasdaq symbol SCES ), the stock of which is suffering a long decline - it's lost over 50% of its value in the past 24 months. I imagine the shareholders and other involved parties, whoever they might happen to be, are happy to see any cheerful little public mention of their sappy company. >I resent the innuendo, Tough. I resent spam. >especially since it only reflects negatively on you. Nice twist there - thank you for being concerned for my welfare. >You obviously have no idea of the thread of messages that have [sic] been going on. I was watching it with mild interest (and waiting for a response from you to my incidentally related post about Dudley) when you imposed your advertisement upon us. >You jumped in, popped off, Indeed I did. >and now will probably not be heard from on this subject again. Wrong again, obviously, but I'll be happy to drop it whenever the bulls--t stops. Please regard all questions above as rhetorical (look it up). >I will not be as rude to you in my response as you were to me in your comments. You have nothing to be rude about. Take your lumps and move on. Oliver Seeler Director, Nova Albion Research oseeler@mcn.org & bagpipes@mcn.org From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 21:17:25 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA02999 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:17:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA19065. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:17:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA19061 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:17:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f226.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.226] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA02993 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:17:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:16:35 -0700 Received: from 12.13.238.137 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.137] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:16:35 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jul 2000 19:16:35.0683 (UTC) FILETIME=[D992A330:01BFF66C] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Mr. Seeler, I and many other persons on this list are personal friends of Phil Stover and have detailed knowledge of Phil's personal history, employment, business, and character. Somehow a misunderstanding has arisen regarding Phil's purpose and motives in mentioning Successories. I know Phil and Phil is not endorsing the company nor its products. Although this list sometimes appears to be a scholarly endeavor following the standards developed over many centuries of scientific and historical progress, it is actually a discussion group of a bunch of people with a common interest. As such, is it not infrequent that one will ask questions, respond to questions, or make statements which do not conform to accepted scientific standards. This does not mean that there may be an ulterior, commercial purpose. It may be, as I believe it was in this instance, a lay person's statement of mundane information in everyday common language, including subjective evaluations by Phil of their products. This kind of non-rigorous communication is not uncommon on this list (and many other lists, also). I also find some of the images Successories uses to be "beautiful." This is my subjective response to those images. I do not, however, endorse their products nor am I promoting them. Neither is Phil. You can continue trying to defend your mistaken perception and statements by attacking Phil (and me now, too!); or, you can apologize and bring respect and honor to both Phil and yourself; or, you can just be quiet and hope we'll all forget and forgive (which we all will). How far will you go to be right? Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 22:20:19 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA05105 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:20:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA19164. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:20:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA19160 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:20:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.49] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA09963 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:19:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.137.146]) by mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000725201942.RJTE1468.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com> for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:19:42 +0000 Message-ID: <397DF69D.CAC3A917@portolangroup.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:20:45 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] Magellan, successories, et al Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO To the group: Just a quick message to tell all of you that I have privately apologized to Mr. Seeler for the angry tone of my reply to him. I was dumbfounded and angry at his response to my Successories posting. That does not however, excuse my reply, which reflected an angry and challenging tone. If the commercial nature of my reply offended anyone else, I apologize to you as well. Quite frankly, the commercial nature of it never dawned on me. I was merely trying to show the group the print that prompted my question and answer the question about Successories. Since I have not received a reply from Successories and since no one in this esteemed group seems familiar with the questioned quote, I will come to the conclusion that it is mythological in its origin. I apologize to the group for my angry tone of this morning. I wish you all peace. Phil Stover From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jul 26 00:35:14 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA09777 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:35:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA19641. Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:34:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA19637 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:34:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA09768 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:34:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from Win95 (ha-1o-men-p3-m01.mcn.org [63.193.12.109]) by mail.mcn.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id e6PMYir13726 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000725152638.0093fde0@mail.mcn.org> X-Sender: oseeler@mail.mcn.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:26:38 -0700 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Oliver Seeler Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Mr. McIintosh: It is peculiar that some members of a group devoted to history seemingly cannot decipher a simple one-day old statement placed in front of them in black and white. I won't go back over it - either you recognize an off-topic commercial endorsement when you see it, or you don't. I have no way of determining the poster's intentions; in fact if you look at my original response you'll see that I assumed the post was an(other) email accidentally placed here, it not entering my mind that someone would post such a thing intentionally. But intentions are not the issue; the issue is how much commercialization of a group forum is tolerable to the group and by extension to all internet users. To me and many, many others the limit is a moderate sig file; touts of any sort above that line are out of line and the poster is fair game, never mind intentions or popularity. Have a look at any unmoderated Usenet news group to see where ignoring this fundamental etiquette leads. But apparently you would have it that if an endorsement comes from your well-intentioned friend it's OK and if someone else objects, they're wrong. I wonder if you'll apply the same standard when an advertisement from a stranger or from a friendless group member lands here. As for the have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife-yet tone at the end of your letter, I won't dignify it with a response except to say that I don't care a bit if you forgive and I certainly hope you don't forget. I apologize for only one thing, and that is for posting my complaint about this transgression of established list-mail protocol to the group instead of to the list owner. Meanwhile I have received a qualified apology from the poster, which I did not ask for but which I accept in the spirit of demonstrating that there are no personal issues involved, as far as I'm concerned. This is my final public comment on the matter, barring any further personal attacks such as the one from Mr. Salmonella - we all have better things to do, I think. Oliver Seeler Director, Nova Albion Research oseeler@mcn.org & bagpipes@mcn.org ~visit our sites~ ***The Universe of Bagpipes*** ~over 30 kinds of bagpipes~ ~sound clips & hundreds of photos~ ~a new CD, Bagpipes of the World~ http://www.hotpipes.com ~ A Yahoo! Weekly Pick ~ ~and~ *** Sir Francis Drake *** ~ an international educational resource ~ http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/drake.htm ~ recommended by The History Channel ~ At 19:16 7/25/00 GMT, you wrote: > >Mr. Seeler, > >I and many other persons on this list are personal friends of Phil Stover >and have detailed knowledge of Phil's personal history, employment, >business, and character. Somehow a misunderstanding has arisen regarding >Phil's purpose and motives in mentioning Successories. I know Phil and Phil >is not endorsing the company nor its products. Although this list sometimes >appears to be a scholarly endeavor following the standards developed over >many centuries of scientific and historical progress, it is actually a >discussion group of a bunch of people with a common interest. As such, is >it not infrequent that one will ask questions, respond to questions, or make >statements which do not conform to accepted scientific standards. This does >not mean that there may be an ulterior, commercial purpose. It may be, as I >believe it was in this instance, a lay person's statement of mundane >information in everyday common language, including subjective evaluations by >Phil of their products. This kind of non-rigorous communication is not >uncommon on this list (and many other lists, also). I also find some of the >images Successories uses to be "beautiful." This is my subjective response >to those images. I do not, however, endorse their products nor am I >promoting them. > >Neither is Phil. > >You can continue trying to defend your mistaken perception and statements by >attacking Phil (and me now, too!); or, you can apologize and bring respect >and honor to both Phil and yourself; or, you can just be quiet and hope >we'll all forget and forgive (which we all will). > >How far will you go to be right? > >Greg McIntosh >plusultra@hotmail.com > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jul 26 00:37:24 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA09808 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:37:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA19649. Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:37:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA19645 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:37:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pimout4-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.103] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA09803 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:37:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from vaio (NYCMA050-0687.splitrock.net [63.253.68.179]) by pimout4-int.prodigy.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id e6PMbAZ73806 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:37:11 -0400 Message-ID: <009b01bff68a$0b874f40$1544fd3f@vaio> From: "Richard Pflederer" To: References: <397DF69D.CAC3A917@portolangroup.com> Subject: Re: [EXP] Magellan, successories, et al Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:23:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Phil, I don't think you owe anyone an apology. Email is by its nature an "instant gratification process", and your response was quite understandable given the provocation. Dick Pflederer ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Stover To: Sent: 25 July, 2000 4:20 PM Subject: [EXP] Magellan, successories, et al > To the group: > > Just a quick message to tell all of you that I have privately apologized > to Mr. Seeler for the angry tone of my reply to him. I was dumbfounded > and angry at his response to my Successories posting. That does not > however, excuse my reply, which reflected an angry and challenging tone. > > If the commercial nature of my reply offended anyone else, I apologize > to you as well. Quite frankly, the commercial nature of it never dawned > on me. I was merely trying to show the group the print that prompted my > question and answer the question about Successories. > > Since I have not received a reply from Successories and since no one in > this esteemed group seems familiar with the questioned quote, I will > come to the conclusion that it is mythological in its origin. > > I apologize to the group for my angry tone of this morning. I wish you > all peace. > > Phil Stover > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jul 26 02:13:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA17407 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:13:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA19779. Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:13:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA19775 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:12:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA10635 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:12:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17579 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:26:14 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000726083517.0389e5d0@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:36:01 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000725152638.0093fde0@mail.mcn.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 07:26 AM 7/26/00, you wrote: >Mr. McIintosh: > >It is peculiar that some members of a group devoted to history seemingly >the one from Mr. Salmonella - we all have better things to do, I think. > ~a new CD, Bagpipes of the World~ > http://www.hotpipes.com Sure seems to be a "hotpipe" ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jul 26 02:20:39 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA17576 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:20:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA19808. Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:20:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA19786 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:20:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA17558 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:20:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20696 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:20:22 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp41.dyn240.pacific.net.ph [210.23.240.41]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id IAA08606 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:20:22 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <002c01bff5c2$ef513380$29f017d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Subject: [EXP] Apologies to Martin Torodash Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 06:20:22 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I owe Martin Torodash an apology. A wrong turn of phrase--"in lieu of"--may have given the impression one can do without "Magellan Historiography." It was a way of excusing my failure to obtain a copy through more resolute and skillful search. Would it be possible to access it through the Internet? From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jul 26 02:20:41 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA17586 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:20:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA19811. Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:20:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA19791 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:20:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA17559 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:20:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20700 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:20:24 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp41.dyn240.pacific.net.ph [210.23.240.41]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id IAA08620 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:20:23 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <002d01bff5c2$efce52c0$29f017d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: References: <000901bff3f7$2a58d640$def017d2@default> <397B1D09.BF83FF66@easynet.co.uk> <001b01bff52e$177c8340$22f017d2@default> <397CF175.164B175B@bcn.net> <397D4E77.567048F0@easynet.co.uk> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Duarte Barbosa and Magellan Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 06:37:02 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Howgego To: Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 4:23 PM Subject: [EXP] Re: Duarte Barbosa and Magellan Thanks to Martin Torodash for reminding me of the two, quite different, Duarte Barbosas. The one referred to by Lord Stanley was, I assume, the relative of Magellan who was killed in the Cebu-Mactan conflict of 1521. The other, author of the famous "Book of Duarte Barbosa", was the nephew of Diego Barbosa, warden of the castle of Seville. He sailed to India with Cabral in 1500, accompanied by his uncle, Goncalo Gil Barbosa. He spent much of the remainder of his life as an official in India and died (probably at Cannanore) in 1545 or 1546. Unfortunately, Lord Stanley's translation is one of the few Hakluyt Society editions which I do not have. It is presently on the shelf of a London bookseller for 250 pounds sterling ! Yes, I agree very much with Mr. Torodash that many of the first series Hakluyt Society editions lack scholarship. Some of them (particularly those of Clements Markham) seem to be thrown together almost randomly, their titles often bearing little relationship to what's actually between their covers. Even so, they remain as works of exceptional importance, at the least in providing the groundwork for subsequent research. And much of what they contained had never before appeared in English and was unknown to scholarship at large. The confusion over so many documents bearing titles like "Description of the coasts of... ", was largely a result of the Iberian protectiveness over their discoveries which prevented publication of these documents until many years after they had been written, by which time the names of their authors were largely a matter of guesswork. I also have on record two other accounts of the Magellan voyage: The paper book of a Genoese pilot, reproduced in Thatcher, Oliver J. (ed.): The library of original sources, vol. 5 (Milwaukee 1907). The diary of "Mestro Bautista", reproduced in Carvalho, Nunhez de: Noticias para la historia e geographica das nacoes ultramarinas (Lisbon 1831). The former document has been published on the Internet, but I have not seen the latter. I would be grateful if Mr. Torodash could provide me with the bibliographic reference(s) to the diary of Gines de Mafra, of which I have no record. Ray Howgego It is my impression the roteiro of the Genoese Pilot and the diary of "Mestro Bautista" are the same. There is debate on who the real author is, Giovanni Battista or Leon Pancaldo. Both were Genoese and were in the same boat, as it were. Battista was pilot of the Trinidad, Pancaldo was his assistant. The diary was among items seized by the Portuguese from Trinidad. I have a photocopy of the Lisbon ms. published by the Royal Academy of Sciences in Coleccao de Noticias para a Historia a Geografia das Nacoes Ultramarinas...sent to me by Arquivo Historico Ultramarino. I will gladly send you a copy together with whatever bibliographic references to Gines de Mafra I have gathered. Let me know where to mail these. May I know how to access the Genoese Pilot account published on the Internet? From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jul 26 03:09:16 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA19260 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 03:09:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id DAA19875. Wed, 26 Jul 2000 03:09:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA19871 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 03:08:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA10714 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 03:08:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [165.247.45.28] (user-2iveb8s.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.45.28]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA15790 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:08:50 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:01:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories From: RALPH SALOMON To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000725152638.0093fde0@mail.mcn.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO on 7/25/00 5:26 PM, Oliver Seeler at oseeler@mcn.org wrote: > Mr. McIintosh: > > It is peculiar that some members of a group devoted to history seemingly > cannot decipher a simple one-day old statement placed in front of them in > black and white. I won't go back over it - either you recognize an > off-topic commercial endorsement when you see it, or you don't. I have no > way of determining the poster's intentions; in fact if you look at my > original response you'll see that I assumed the post was an(other) email > accidentally placed here, it not entering my mind that someone would post > such a thing intentionally. But intentions are not the issue; the issue is > how much commercialization of a group forum is tolerable to the group and > by extension to all internet users. To me and many, many others the limit > is a moderate sig file; touts of any sort above that line are out of line > and the poster is fair game, never mind intentions or popularity. Have a > look at any unmoderated Usenet news group to see where ignoring this > fundamental etiquette leads. But apparently you would have it that if an > endorsement comes from your well-intentioned friend it's OK and if someone > else objects, they're wrong. I wonder if you'll apply the same standard > when an advertisement from a stranger or from a friendless group member > lands here. > > As for the have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife-yet tone at the end of your > letter, I won't dignify it with a response except to say that I don't care > a bit if you forgive and I certainly hope you don't forget. I apologize > for only one thing, and that is for posting my complaint about this > transgression of established list-mail protocol to the group instead of to > the list owner. > > Meanwhile I have received a qualified apology from the poster, which I did > not ask for but which I accept in the spirit of demonstrating that there > are no personal issues involved, as far as I'm concerned. This is my final > public comment on the matter, barring any further personal attacks such as > the one from Mr. Salmonella - we all have better things to do, I think. > > > Oliver Seeler > Director, Nova Albion Research > oseeler@mcn.org & bagpipes@mcn.org > > ~visit our sites~ > ***The Universe of Bagpipes*** > ~over 30 kinds of bagpipes~ > ~sound clips & hundreds of photos~ > ~a new CD, Bagpipes of the World~ > http://www.hotpipes.com > ~ A Yahoo! Weekly Pick ~ > > ~and~ > > *** Sir Francis Drake *** > ~ an international educational resource ~ > http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/drake.htm > ~ recommended by The History Channel ~ > > > At 19:16 7/25/00 GMT, you wrote: >> >> Mr. Seeler, >> >> I and many other persons on this list are personal friends of Phil Stover >> and have detailed knowledge of Phil's personal history, employment, >> business, and character. Somehow a misunderstanding has arisen regarding >> Phil's purpose and motives in mentioning Successories. I know Phil and Phil >> is not endorsing the company nor its products. Although this list sometimes >> appears to be a scholarly endeavor following the standards developed over >> many centuries of scientific and historical progress, it is actually a >> discussion group of a bunch of people with a common interest. As such, is >> it not infrequent that one will ask questions, respond to questions, or make >> statements which do not conform to accepted scientific standards. This does >> not mean that there may be an ulterior, commercial purpose. It may be, as I >> believe it was in this instance, a lay person's statement of mundane >> information in everyday common language, including subjective evaluations by >> Phil of their products. This kind of non-rigorous communication is not >> uncommon on this list (and many other lists, also). I also find some of the >> images Successories uses to be "beautiful." This is my subjective response >> to those images. I do not, however, endorse their products nor am I >> promoting them. >> >> Neither is Phil. >> >> You can continue trying to defend your mistaken perception and statements by >> attacking Phil (and me now, too!); or, you can apologize and bring respect >> and honor to both Phil and yourself; or, you can just be quiet and hope >> we'll all forget and forgive (which we all will). >> >> How far will you go to be right? >> >> Greg McIntosh >> plusultra@hotmail.com >> >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> >> From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jul 26 09:04:22 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA00166 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:04:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id JAA20272. Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:04:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA20268 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:03:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id JAA04470. Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:03:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200007260703.JAA04470@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Re: Archeology To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:03:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Original message was refused because it was from someone who was not subscribed to this list (it was sent to another list to which the original message was also sent). Andre Engels ----- Forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- From: "Casey J. Lartigue Jr." To: , , References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000725133842.00d08c40@pop3.demon.nl> Subject: Re: Archeology Very, very funny, one of the funnier urban legends. One guy has even set up a web page claiming to be the author of the letter. http://www.isgs.uiuc.edu/dinos/jdp/misc/hominid.htm http://www.webways.co.uk/stewrat/Oldstuff.htm http://www.aig.asn.au/only_in_america.htm http://www.snopes.com/humor/letters/smithson.htm A few years ago there was even a printed version of this on Smithsonian stationary. I would call the Smithsonian to check it out but they probably get enough crank calls. CJL > Dear Mr. Williams: > Thank you for your latest submission to the Institute, labeled "93211-D, > layer seven, next to the clothesline post...Hominid skull." ----- End of forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jul 26 09:13:01 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA00408 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:13:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id JAA20296. Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:12:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA20286 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:12:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id JAA04509. Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:12:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200007260712.JAA04509@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] a visit to America in 1500 , of Danes? In-Reply-To: from Gregory McIntosh at "Jul 25, 2000 3:30:40 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:12:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Jose Anaya wrote: > do you know anything of a visit to north america in 1500 > of an expedition of "Normans [Norwegians?], Dutchs and > Danes"? .This expedition was from Greenland to Labrador, if > it existed... Gregory McIntosh wrote: > Sounds like it might be a reference to the Pining-Pothorst voyage to > Greenland (1470s) or the spurious Pining-Pothorst-Corte Real-Scolvus voyage > to Greenland and Labrador. Then I still wonder what the "Dutch" are doing in this context. There have been claims for Polish and/or Portuguese on this voyage, but none for Dutch. Or is this perhaps a more encompassing meaning of "Dutch" that also includes northern Germans? I know of one expedition which has this mixture of nationalities (Norwegian-Dutch-Danish), namely an attempt in 1583 by Olivier Brunel to find Greenland. It seems he got lost in the seas northwest of Iceland without ever finding Greenland. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jul 25 20:57:57 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA01701 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:57:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id UAA19053. Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:57:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA19049 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:57:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f200.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.200] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA01688 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:57:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:57:02 -0700 Received: from 12.13.238.137 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.137] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: maphist@camail1.harvard.edu Cc: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Smithsonian "Letter" Hoax? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:57:02 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jul 2000 18:57:02.0800 (UTC) FILETIME=[1E7AE500:01BFF66A] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO It may not be fair of me to assert that the Smithsonian “letter” is a hoax and then say I’m not going to spend the time researching this to prove it – but, really, this has all the trappings of a typical hoax, as discussed in the classic: MacDougall, Curtis D., HOAXES, New York: Macmillan, 1940; New York: Dover Publications, 1958. I recommend the 2nd edition because it has an index. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jul 26 18:38:56 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA23168 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:38:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA21470. Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:38:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA21466 (ESMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:38:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ewwolf@cap1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.10] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA23145 (SMTP). Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:38:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from ewwolf@localhost) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id MAA05815; Wed, 26 Jul 1972 12:43:31 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1972 12:43:31 -0400 Message-Id: <197207261643.MAA05815@cap1.CapAccess.org> From: ewwolf@CapAccess.org (Eric W. Wolf) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Afryqah Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I have received several inquiries for additional technical and ordering information for the CD-ROM "From Ancient Afryqah to Modern Africa"; it is avaialable at www.afryqah.org From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jul 27 03:12:28 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA15761 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 03:12:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id DAA22305. Thu, 27 Jul 2000 03:10:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA22301 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 03:10:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA15705 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 03:10:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from 216-164-139-63.s317.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.139.63] helo=sanderva) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 3.15 #2) id 13HcBs-0003vO-00; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:10:25 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.20000726210529.00699d9c@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: sanderva/pop.erols.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) -- [Cornell Modified] Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:05:29 -0400 To: From: Jeanne & Tom Sander Subject: [EXP] SHD Meeting October 2000 - HOTEL BOOKING DEADLINE Cc: bobhigh@erols.com, ewwolf@capaccess.org, jeanne.young@frb.gov, nmiller@nlrb.gov, rgrim@loc.gov, sanderva@erols.com, michael.miller@arch2.nara.gov, shd2000dc@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO 1. ACCOMMODATIONS ALERT FOR THOSE ATTENDING THE SHD MEETING. THE BLOCK ON ROOMS AND PRICES TERMINATES AUGUST 25, 2000. AFTER THAT DATE ROOM AVAILABILITY AND AGREED PRICES AT THE CONFERENCE HOTELS CANNOT BE GUARANTEED. The hotel information pages at the below noted site (para 3) gives full details concerning reservations and cancellation policy. It is better to make a hotel booking if you expect to attend this meeting than to take the risk of non-availability. The time to act is now. 2. The Society for the History of Discoveries (SHD) will hold its annual meeting in Washington D.C. from October 12-15, 2000. The tentative program for the meeting sessions may be found at: http://www.sochistdisc.org/washington_program.htm 3. Additional information about the annual meeting, including a Welcome, the Program, Registration Form, Optional Tours, Exhibitions in Washington DC and area, Tourism in Washington DC and vicinity, Accommodations Information, Hotel Information Sheet, and Hotel Reservation Form may be found at: http://www.sochistdisc.org/annual-meeting.htm 4. Further information about the Society for the History of Discoveries is available at the Society's home page: http://www.sochistdisc.org ***************************** Thomas Sander SHD 2000 P.O. Box 10793 Burke, VA 22009-0793 USA SHD2000 e-mail address: shd2000dc@hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jul 27 05:38:12 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA20125 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 05:38:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA22487. Thu, 27 Jul 2000 05:36:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA22483 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 05:36:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA20098 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 05:36:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04971 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:36:02 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp21.dyn240.pacific.net.ph [210.23.240.21]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id LAA27025 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:36:01 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <001901bff61e$935f2080$40f017d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Subject: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:55:21 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO It's hard to know what was truly in Phil Stover's mind and heart when he asked about the Magellan quote in a Successories item. I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. But Stover is in a no-win situation, a victim of the law of unintended consequences. His action has undermined before this group Successories' reputation (claim?) as a firm that produces what is "beautiful and inspirational." The Magellan quote shows carelessness and lack of style, style as defined by Alfred North Whitehead as the ultimate morality of the mind. Now the public may justly ask, "If it can be so mindless in this instance, what is the guarantee it is not mindless in all instances and in all things?" Maybe, Stover has done all of us --and the buying public at large--a favor by accidentally unmasking this company's claim to doing business with integrity. So in the end, he is also a winner. He can now return the Magellan quote, and who knows what else he has bought from Successories, and ask for a refund plus other charges for mental anguish and other aggravations. He not only will have his money back but with interest compounded. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jul 27 06:50:42 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA22225 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 06:50:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id GAA22577. Thu, 27 Jul 2000 06:49:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA22573 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 06:48:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA22183 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 06:48:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19416 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:02:07 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000727134913.00bd1b70@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:55:50 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences In-Reply-To: <001901bff61e$935f2080$40f017d2@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I know Phil from another list as an upright and honest person. In the past too he made (other not commercial) mistakes, for which he was attacked without much ground. I also think it is typical for ANY mailing list that the Americans in general shout the loudest with these kind of mistakes and disregard any respect for other persons. Recently I have written for a course "rules" for netiquette and I would suggest anyone to handle like that. Rules to electronic mail ( a class I am preparing, but might be well of use in this list) One common occurrence in e-mail and newsgroup discussions is flaming---verbal attacks on a person who makes an argument you disagree with. It is very easy to get angry at someone who makes a statement that is stupid or hateful, and that anger often causes people to write rude replies. These attacks are generally counterproductive---they antagonize the person they are directed at and often irritate others who are participating in the same discussion. When you read a statement you disagree with strongly, feel free to write a reply, but don't send it immediately. Give yourself a day to cool down, then re-read your reply. You might find that it is rude and unpleasant to read. Re-write it, removing snide comments and ad hominem attacks, adding coherent arguments that bolster your side of the matter. Try to concentrate on what the person wrote, and not on the person. Also decide whether the reply needs to be posted so that everyone can see it, or whether it should be sent privately to the recipient. Another useful thing to do when editing an e-mail or news posting is to try to cut it in half. Long rambling messages generally get skipped or read very hastily, while messages that are short and to the point get remembered. Don't forget your paragraph breaks---you can get away with much longer messages if they look well-organized. Don't go so far in trimming your writing that your message is incomprehensible out of context. When replying to someone else's message, remember that the person you are mailing to may not have a copy of the original message. Don't quote long messages either---just pull out the salient parts that need to be quoted to establish context. One of the joys of e-mail and newsgroup discussions is that you don't have to respond immediately---you can take the time to think up the arguments and examples that make your case stronger. A discussion that would last minutes face-to-face may take days electronically, but the issues are likely to have been examined more thoroughly, and there is a better chance of persuading someone to a rational conclusion. Humor Humor, particularly irony, is extremely difficult to convey in writing. In fact, humorous writing is one of the most difficult kinds of writing---good humor writers are even rarer than good stand-up comedians. If you make jokes on a newsgroup, or in widely distributed e-mail, nearly always someone reading your joke takes it seriously, and starts trying to correct you. There are several ways to avoid this problem: Never make jokes. This works, but can be boring. Often a humorous way of presenting an argument is more memorable, and has more lasting effect than a carefully reasoned one. Make all your jokes innocuous. Try not to insult anyone when you make a joke---if no one is offended, then it might not matter much if someone interprets your joke as a serious statement. Be careful that you don't joke about anything serious. (Anybody remember Reagan's gaffe, when he jokingly threatened to start bombing Moscow on a microphone that he didn't realize was live?) If you do make a joke, direct it at what has been said, not the person who said it. This means that clever puns and wordplay are better than simple abuse of another writer. Wit is also more difficult than insults and therefore funnier. Directing an insult at yourself is not sufficient---in many cases you will be inadvertently insulting others as well. Mark all your humor explicitly. One common punctuation device that has been adopted by many e-mail users is the smiley face. You make it with three keystrokes `` :-)'' and put it at the end of any sentence or phrase that you do not want people to take seriously. Some people have gone overboard, and proposed dozens of different variants on the smiley face for different purposes---so far, none of the others has become as widespread. The smiley face may seem stupid (and it is never used in normal writing), but it has become such a standard convention for e-mail and newsgroups that many readers assume that any statement not marked with a smiley is intended seriously. At 06:55 PM 7/25/00, vicente c. de jesus wrote: >It's hard to know what was truly in Phil Stover's mind and heart when he >compounded. I hope humor was intended over here. ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jul 27 09:31:05 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA27877 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:31:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id JAA22787. Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:29:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA22783 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:29:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA14087 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:29:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22838 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:29:03 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp65.dyn241.pacific.net.ph [210.23.241.65]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id PAA01404 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:29:02 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <002b01bff629$6bedc5a0$e2f517d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Subject: [EXP] Magellan quote Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:12:50 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Lest the Stover quest for the authenticity of the Magellan quote is totally swamped by the furious and heated exchanges, it appears the cause celebre owes its life to an invention. I have a vision of the great navigator--the greatest, if Bourne will have it--saying somewhere up there in the Magellanic cloud, "I wish I had said it!" Vicente C. de Jesus From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jul 27 16:01:42 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA15955 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:01:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA23661. Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:01:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA23657 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:00:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [209.202.81.74] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA15174 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:00:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from emeillon (EMEILLON.msf.org [192.168.2.38]) by msf.msf.org (post.office MTA v1.9.3b ID# 0-11128) with SMTP id AAB292 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:49:22 -0400 From: emeillon@stewart-museum.org (Eileen Meillon) To: Subject: [EXP] Globe Symposium, Stewart Museum, Montreal -- Programme Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:16:13 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This second announcement gives details of the programme for the globe symposium. Contact numbers and information for those interested follow the programme. ***** The Stewart Museum Globe Symposium Stewart Museum, Ile Sainte-Hélène, Montréal 19-22 October 2000 (Programme as of 20 July 2000) ***** Thursday - 19 October 2000 6:00 p.m. Registration and reception (1195 Sherbrooke Street West) Friday - 20 October 2000 8:30 a.m. Symposium registration and opening (Grande Poudrière, Ile Sainte-Hélène) 9:15 a.m. "Looking at the Earth from Outer Space: Ancient Views on the Power of Globes" Christian Jacob, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, Paris 10:30 a.m. "'The Doctrine of the Sphere': A Forgotten Chapter in the History of Terrestrial and Celestial Globes" Elly Dekker, Linschoten, The Netherlands 12:00 noon Introduction to the globe exhibition, viewing and lunch 2:00 p.m. "La symbolique du globe dans les arts graphiques en Occident, XVIe-XVIIIe siècle : la leçon des livres d'emblèmes et d'iconologie" Catherine Hofmann, Département des cartes et plans, Bibliothèque nationale de France (to be presented in French; English translation will be available) 3:20 p.m. "An Art Historian's Approach to Globes" Robert Derome, département d'histoire de l'art, Université du Québec à Montréal 4:30 - 6:00 p.m. Viewing of exhibition 7:00 p.m. Dinner (Festin du Gouverneur) Saturday - 21 October 2000 9:00 a.m. "Globe Production in the Low Countries and Its Impact in Europe, 1525-1650" Peter van der Krogt, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands 10:30 a.m. "Celestial Globes: Origins and Innovations" Elly Dekker, Linschoten, The Netherlands 1:30 p.m. "La restauration des globes anciens : la réintégration des lacunes" Alain Roger, restaurateur, chef de travaux d'art, Bibliothèque nationale de France (to be presented in French; English translation will be available) 4:00 p.m. Leave by bus for the Laurentian Mountains, north of Montreal 7:00 p.m. Reception and dinner Sunday - 22 October 2000 9:30 a.m. "More than just Spheres: A Curator's Vision for a New Globe Museum in Vienna" Jan Mokre, Curator of the Globe Museum, Austrian National Library, Vienna 11:00 a.m. Symposium wrap-up session and discussion 12:30 p.m. Farewell lunch ***** The registration fee, which will include lunches and dinners during the symposium, is $285 (Canadian). This fee also includes a complimentary copy of the lavishly illustrated book, _Sphaerae Mundi: Early Globes at the Stewart Museum_ (retail: $50 CDN). The registration deadline is 8 September 2000. (If space is still available after that date, the fee will be $325). Participation will be limited to 75 persons. English will be the principal language of the symposium. For further information concerning such matters as accommodation, and in order to receive the registration form, please contact the globe symposium secretary: Nadia Hammadi - nhammadi@stewart-museum.org Stewart Museum, PO Box 1200, Station A, Montreal (Qc), H3C 2Y9, CANADA Tel: (514)861-6703, ext. 260 / Fax: (514)284-0123 Please feel free to contact one of the three symposium organizers for further information: Ed Dahl - edahl@iosphere.net Jean-François Gauvin - jfgauvin@stewart-museum.org Eileen Meillon - emeillon@stewart-museum.org ***** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jul 27 17:39:43 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA20063 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:39:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA23805. Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:39:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA23801 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:38:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA15116 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:38:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.132.46]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000727153801.EXHF3652.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com> for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:38:01 +0000 Message-ID: <39805758.493E3E6E@portolangroup.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:38:00 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Magellan quote and comment References: <002b01bff629$6bedc5a0$e2f517d2@default> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F5F78081FFBFBED2674DA67C" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO --------------F5F78081FFBFBED2674DA67C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Vicente, et al: Thanks for the conclusion regarding the quote. It appears to be quite fictitious. As for my "mind and heart" when I asked the question............ The entire graphic design of my company (logo, brochures, letterhead, etc.) is based on a sea chart theme. I am an enthusiastic collector and student of sea charts. My office is decorated with a number of 17th century sea charts, 17th and 18th century wind roses, various de Bry and Montanus portraits (Linschoten, Magellan, etc.), quotes from "Ulysses" and pictures of Finnish sailing ship models that I took in various Finnish churches. These models by the way, are magnificently detailed ships that hang in the sanctuary of many rural Finnish churches. They reminded the parishioners to pray for their men, while at sea. I have looked, but have never seen any literature on them. They are large, intimately detailed, and generally fascinating (uh oh, sounds like a commercial endorsement!). While strolling my local mall, I saw for sale a large picture of a sailing ship in a storm with the Magellan quote underneath it. I have a number of Magellan biographies in my library, but was not familiar with the quote. Prior to purchasing the picture, I wanted to get some verification that the quote was authentic. I immediately thought of the discovery group as the best source of such information. While I have a number of books on fictitious islands in my library, I did not want a fictitious quote on my wall. My question created some wonderful dialogue on Magellan sources. For that I am grateful. For the rancor, I am sorry. By the way, my very favorite picture hanging on my wall is not authentic. It is a poster showing a number of sailing ships teetering over the edge of the sea, ready to fall off. The title is simply, "I TOLD YOU SO". It is delightful! Many many years ago when I was serving as a dean and professor in the academic world, I was an editor of The Journal of Psychology and Theology. It was all quite heady and academically rigorous and proper. Maybe I am mistaken, but that is not how I few the culture and/or intent of such groups as discovery. I see this more as a forum, a community of diverse people with even more diverse backgrounds. I fear less we apply too rigorous a standard to comments and questions posted here. If we do that, we exclude all the enthusiasts, the lovers of discovery who may have no formal background or training in The Chicago Style of Writing, or in my case the APA writing style. If we intimidate people into merely lurking, we lose the energy, the synergy they might bring to us with their contributions. If this is a community...then all should be welcome. If it is an academic forum, then it should be identified as such, and non-discovery academicians should stay away. My fear is that while that might improve the grammar, punctuation and academic propriety of the list, it would diminish the simplicity, the naiveté and the innocence out of which learning and discovery takes place. Where would the accuracy of sea charts have been without the fishermen and traders? Certainly, I, for example, am not a scholar of the History of Discoveries. I do not write my mails with an eye to exactness in punctuation and grammar (I will try and do better). I would like to believe, however, that if I conduct myself well, show respect, and not waste the group's time, that I will be welcome. That is, it seems to me, what leads to discoveries It is what a community is all about. Best regards, Phil "vaccinate c. de jesus" wrote: > Lest the Stover quest for the authenticity of the Magellan quote is totally > swamped by the furious and heated exchanges, it appears the cause celebre > owes its life to an invention. I have a vision of the great navigator--the > greatest, if Bourne will have it--saying somewhere up there in the > Magellanic cloud, "I wish I had said it!" > > Vicente C. de Jesus -- --------------F5F78081FFBFBED2674DA67C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vicente, et al:

Thanks for the conclusion regarding the quote.  It appears to be quite fictitious.

As for my "mind and heart" when I asked the question............

The entire graphic design of my company (logo, brochures, letterhead, etc.) is based on a sea chart theme.  I am an enthusiastic collector and student of sea charts.  My office is decorated with a number of 17th century sea charts, 17th and 18th century wind roses, various de Bry and Montanus portraits (Linschoten, Magellan, etc.), quotes from "Ulysses" and pictures of Finnish sailing ship models that I took in various Finnish churches.  These models by the way, are magnificently detailed ships that hang in the sanctuary of many rural Finnish churches.  They reminded the parishioners to pray for their men, while at sea.  I have looked, but have never seen any literature on them.  They are large, intimately detailed, and generally fascinating (uh oh, sounds like a commercial endorsement!).

While strolling my local mall, I saw for sale a large picture of a sailing ship in a storm with the Magellan quote underneath it.  I have a number of Magellan biographies in my library, but was not familiar with the quote.  Prior to purchasing the picture, I wanted to get some verification that the quote was authentic.  I immediately thought of the discovery group as the best source of such information.  While I have a number of books on fictitious islands in my library, I did not want a fictitious quote on my wall.

My question created some wonderful dialogue on Magellan sources.  For that I am grateful.  For the rancor, I am sorry.

By the way, my very favorite picture hanging on my wall is not authentic.  It is a poster showing a number of sailing ships teetering over the edge of the sea, ready to fall off.  The title is simply, "I TOLD YOU SO".  It is delightful!

Many many years ago when I was serving as a dean and professor in the academic world, I was an editor of  The Journal of Psychology and Theology.  It was all quite heady and academically rigorous and proper.  Maybe I am mistaken, but that is not how I few the culture and/or intent of such groups as discovery.

I see this more as a forum, a community of diverse people with even more diverse backgrounds.  I fear less we apply too rigorous a standard to comments and questions posted here.  If we do that, we exclude all the enthusiasts, the lovers of discovery who may have no formal background or training in The Chicago Style of Writing, or in my case the APA writing style.  If we intimidate people into merely lurking, we lose the energy, the synergy they might bring to us with their contributions.

If this is a community...then all should be welcome.  If it is an academic forum, then it should be identified as such, and non-discovery academicians should stay away.  My fear is that while that might improve the grammar, punctuation and academic propriety of the list, it would diminish the simplicity, the naiveté and the innocence out of which learning and discovery takes place.  Where would the accuracy of sea charts have been without the fishermen and traders?

Certainly, I, for example, am not a scholar of the History of Discoveries.  I do not write my mails with an eye to exactness in punctuation and grammar (I will try and do better).  I would like to believe, however, that if I conduct myself well, show respect, and not waste the group's time, that I will be welcome.  That is, it seems to me, what leads to discoveries  It is what a community is all about.

Best regards,
Phil
 
 
 

"vaccinate c. de jesus" wrote:

Lest the Stover quest for the authenticity of the Magellan quote is totally
swamped by the furious and heated exchanges, it appears the cause celebre
owes its life to an invention. I have a vision of the great navigator--the
greatest, if Bourne will have it--saying somewhere up there in the
Magellanic cloud, "I wish I had said it!"

Vicente C. de Jesus

--
  --------------F5F78081FFBFBED2674DA67C-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jul 27 17:39:43 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA20063 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:39:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA23805. Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:39:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA23801 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:38:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA15116 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:38:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.132.46]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000727153801.EXHF3652.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com> for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:38:01 +0000 Message-ID: <39805758.493E3E6E@portolangroup.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:38:00 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Magellan quote and comment References: <002b01bff629$6bedc5a0$e2f517d2@default> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F5F78081FFBFBED2674DA67C" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO --------------F5F78081FFBFBED2674DA67C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Vicente, et al: Thanks for the conclusion regarding the quote. It appears to be quite fictitious. As for my "mind and heart" when I asked the question............ The entire graphic design of my company (logo, brochures, letterhead, etc.) is based on a sea chart theme. I am an enthusiastic collector and student of sea charts. My office is decorated with a number of 17th century sea charts, 17th and 18th century wind roses, various de Bry and Montanus portraits (Linschoten, Magellan, etc.), quotes from "Ulysses" and pictures of Finnish sailing ship models that I took in various Finnish churches. These models by the way, are magnificently detailed ships that hang in the sanctuary of many rural Finnish churches. They reminded the parishioners to pray for their men, while at sea. I have looked, but have never seen any literature on them. They are large, intimately detailed, and generally fascinating (uh oh, sounds like a commercial endorsement!). While strolling my local mall, I saw for sale a large picture of a sailing ship in a storm with the Magellan quote underneath it. I have a number of Magellan biographies in my library, but was not familiar with the quote. Prior to purchasing the picture, I wanted to get some verification that the quote was authentic. I immediately thought of the discovery group as the best source of such information. While I have a number of books on fictitious islands in my library, I did not want a fictitious quote on my wall. My question created some wonderful dialogue on Magellan sources. For that I am grateful. For the rancor, I am sorry. By the way, my very favorite picture hanging on my wall is not authentic. It is a poster showing a number of sailing ships teetering over the edge of the sea, ready to fall off. The title is simply, "I TOLD YOU SO". It is delightful! Many many years ago when I was serving as a dean and professor in the academic world, I was an editor of The Journal of Psychology and Theology. It was all quite heady and academically rigorous and proper. Maybe I am mistaken, but that is not how I few the culture and/or intent of such groups as discovery. I see this more as a forum, a community of diverse people with even more diverse backgrounds. I fear less we apply too rigorous a standard to comments and questions posted here. If we do that, we exclude all the enthusiasts, the lovers of discovery who may have no formal background or training in The Chicago Style of Writing, or in my case the APA writing style. If we intimidate people into merely lurking, we lose the energy, the synergy they might bring to us with their contributions. If this is a community...then all should be welcome. If it is an academic forum, then it should be identified as such, and non-discovery academicians should stay away. My fear is that while that might improve the grammar, punctuation and academic propriety of the list, it would diminish the simplicity, the naiveté and the innocence out of which learning and discovery takes place. Where would the accuracy of sea charts have been without the fishermen and traders? Certainly, I, for example, am not a scholar of the History of Discoveries. I do not write my mails with an eye to exactness in punctuation and grammar (I will try and do better). I would like to believe, however, that if I conduct myself well, show respect, and not waste the group's time, that I will be welcome. That is, it seems to me, what leads to discoveries It is what a community is all about. Best regards, Phil "vaccinate c. de jesus" wrote: > Lest the Stover quest for the authenticity of the Magellan quote is totally > swamped by the furious and heated exchanges, it appears the cause celebre > owes its life to an invention. I have a vision of the great navigator--the > greatest, if Bourne will have it--saying somewhere up there in the > Magellanic cloud, "I wish I had said it!" > > Vicente C. de Jesus -- --------------F5F78081FFBFBED2674DA67C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vicente, et al:

Thanks for the conclusion regarding the quote.  It appears to be quite fictitious.

As for my "mind and heart" when I asked the question............

The entire graphic design of my company (logo, brochures, letterhead, etc.) is based on a sea chart theme.  I am an enthusiastic collector and student of sea charts.  My office is decorated with a number of 17th century sea charts, 17th and 18th century wind roses, various de Bry and Montanus portraits (Linschoten, Magellan, etc.), quotes from "Ulysses" and pictures of Finnish sailing ship models that I took in various Finnish churches.  These models by the way, are magnificently detailed ships that hang in the sanctuary of many rural Finnish churches.  They reminded the parishioners to pray for their men, while at sea.  I have looked, but have never seen any literature on them.  They are large, intimately detailed, and generally fascinating (uh oh, sounds like a commercial endorsement!).

While strolling my local mall, I saw for sale a large picture of a sailing ship in a storm with the Magellan quote underneath it.  I have a number of Magellan biographies in my library, but was not familiar with the quote.  Prior to purchasing the picture, I wanted to get some verification that the quote was authentic.  I immediately thought of the discovery group as the best source of such information.  While I have a number of books on fictitious islands in my library, I did not want a fictitious quote on my wall.

My question created some wonderful dialogue on Magellan sources.  For that I am grateful.  For the rancor, I am sorry.

By the way, my very favorite picture hanging on my wall is not authentic.  It is a poster showing a number of sailing ships teetering over the edge of the sea, ready to fall off.  The title is simply, "I TOLD YOU SO".  It is delightful!

Many many years ago when I was serving as a dean and professor in the academic world, I was an editor of  The Journal of Psychology and Theology.  It was all quite heady and academically rigorous and proper.  Maybe I am mistaken, but that is not how I few the culture and/or intent of such groups as discovery.

I see this more as a forum, a community of diverse people with even more diverse backgrounds.  I fear less we apply too rigorous a standard to comments and questions posted here.  If we do that, we exclude all the enthusiasts, the lovers of discovery who may have no formal background or training in The Chicago Style of Writing, or in my case the APA writing style.  If we intimidate people into merely lurking, we lose the energy, the synergy they might bring to us with their contributions.

If this is a community...then all should be welcome.  If it is an academic forum, then it should be identified as such, and non-discovery academicians should stay away.  My fear is that while that might improve the grammar, punctuation and academic propriety of the list, it would diminish the simplicity, the naiveté and the innocence out of which learning and discovery takes place.  Where would the accuracy of sea charts have been without the fishermen and traders?

Certainly, I, for example, am not a scholar of the History of Discoveries.  I do not write my mails with an eye to exactness in punctuation and grammar (I will try and do better).  I would like to believe, however, that if I conduct myself well, show respect, and not waste the group's time, that I will be welcome.  That is, it seems to me, what leads to discoveries  It is what a community is all about.

Best regards,
Phil
 
 
 

"vaccinate c. de jesus" wrote:

Lest the Stover quest for the authenticity of the Magellan quote is totally
swamped by the furious and heated exchanges, it appears the cause celebre
owes its life to an invention. I have a vision of the great navigator--the
greatest, if Bourne will have it--saying somewhere up there in the
Magellanic cloud, "I wish I had said it!"

Vicente C. de Jesus

--
  --------------F5F78081FFBFBED2674DA67C-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jul 27 21:58:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA29331 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:58:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA24170. Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:57:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA24166 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:57:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from IDENT:postfix@uno.bcn.net [209.213.0.60] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA15656 (ESMTP). Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:57:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from bcn.net (max-1-psf-98.bcn.net [208.238.84.98]) by uno.bcn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4714F3078 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:55:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <398087A1.61683D31@bcn.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:04:01 -0400 From: Overlee Farm Books X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Apologies to Martin Torodash References: <002c01bff5c2$ef513380$29f017d2@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO "vicente c. de jesus" wrote: > I owe Martin Torodash an apology. A wrong turn of phrase--"in lieu of"--may > have given the impression one can do without "Magellan Historiography." It > was a way of excusing my failure to obtain a copy through more resolute and > skillful search. Would it be possible to access it through the Internet? Your apology has been noted. No, it would not be possible to access it through the internet unless the Hispanic American Historical Review has the requisite capacity/ability to do so and I do not have a single offprint left. Martin Torodash From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jul 28 05:05:35 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA19817 (ESMTP). Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:05:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA24853. Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:03:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA24849 (ESMTP). Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:03:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA16683 (ESMTP). Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:03:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28558; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:03:23 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp12.dyn241.pacific.net.ph [210.23.241.12]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id LAA16017; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:03:21 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <000901bff660$22bf02e0$0cf117d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Cc: "Howgego" Subject: [EXP] Genoese Pilot and Mafra bibliography Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:44:29 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Ray, Thanks for the tip on Internet Genoese Pilot. I believe it is Stanley's translation (minus footnotes) of the Lisbon copy of a manuscript now lost. There are two others, the Paris copy and Madrid cc. The Lisbon copyist made a number of errors that have waylaid historians, e.g., the name of the port from which Magellan departed for Cebu where he met his final fate comes out as Macangor. In the Paris ms. it is Macaguoa which is phonetically the same as Pigafetta's Mazaua, Albo's Mazava, and Mafra's Macagua. Gu and v are the equivalents in Spanish, Portuguese, French, etc of w that is absent in their alphabet. Title of Mafra's account: Libro que trata del descubrimiento y principio del Estrecho que se llama de Magallanes, eds. Antonio Blazquez and Delgado Aguilera. Madrid 1920. Real Sociedad Geografica. On Mafra's life: Coleccion de documentos ineditos relativos al descubrimiento, conquista y organizacion de las antiguas posesiones Espanoles de ultramar, t. II. Madrid 1886: Impresores de la Real Casa, p. 54. Harrisse, Henry. The Discovery of North America. Amsterdam 1969: N. Israel, pp. 722, 736. Medina, J.T. El descubrimiento del Oceano Pacifico: Vasco Nunez, Balboa, Hernando de Magallanes y Sus Companeros. Santiago, Chile 1920: Imprinta Universitaria, pp. 402-403. Navarette, Martin Fernandez de. Coleccion de los viages y descubrimientos que hicieron por mar los Espanoles desde fines del siglo XV, vol 4. Buenos Aires 1945-46: Editorial Guarania, pp. 305, 306, 311, 342-351. -----Biblioteca Maritima Espanola, obra postuma. Madrid 1851: Imprenta de la viuda de Calero, p. 584. Nota Bene: It is one of the ironies of the Magellan voyage that the least known among the chroniclers, Mafra, has probably the most voluminous documentation of his life in the files of the Casa de Contratacion de las Indias. He was involved in two other voyages, with Pedro de Alvarado and his last with Villalobos. After his return in 1527 he filed a case against his wife who had remarried and sold off all of Mafra's possessions, which case produced voluminous documents. The most famous name of all, Antonio Pigafetta, is non-existent as far as records of the Casa de Contratacion is concerned. His name appears in the muster roll as Antonio Lombardo. Mafra's account: Brand, Donald D. Geographical Exploration by the Spaniards. In: The Pacific Basin, A History of its Geographical Exploration. New York 1967: American Geographical Society, pp. 115, 366. Alfredo Cominges Barcena et al. La primera circunnavegacion. In: Descubrimientos Espanoles en el Mar del Sur. Madrid 1992: Editorial Naval, pp. 108, 111, 118, 120-127, 130-131, 138. Cuesta, Mariano Domingo. The Moluccas Island Voyages. In: Spanish Pacific from Magellan to Malaspina. Madrid 1988: Ministerio de Asuntos Exteriores, pp. 48, 55. Gil, Juan. Mitos y utopias del descubrimientos: II. El Pacifico. Madrid 19--: Alianza Editorial, pp. 20, 23, 49, 62. Joyner, Tim. Magellan. Maine 1992: International Marine, pp.280, 347. Morison, Samuel Eliot. The European Discovery of America, The Southern Voyages A.D. 1492-1616. New York 1974: Oxford University Press, pp. 455-456, 468. Noone, Martin J. S.S.C. General History of the Philippines, Part I, Vol. I: The Discovery and Conquest of the Philippines. Manila 1986: Historical Conservation Society, pp. 40, 60, 102, 319. Parr, Charles McKew. So Noble A Captain, The Life and Times of Ferdinand Magellan. New York 1953: Thomas Cromwell Co., p. 345. Pigafetta, Antonio. Il primo viaggio intorno al mondo. Mario Pozzi (ed. and trans). Vicenza 1994: Neri Pozza Editore, p. 72. ----Magellan's Voyage, A Narrative Account of the First Circumnavigation. R.A. Skelton (ed. and trans.) New Haven 1969: Yale University Press, p. 4. Ribeiro, Admiral J. Freitas. Estudio Nautico do Roteiro da Viagem de Fernao de Magalhais. In: Fernao de Magalhais (A Sua Vida e A Sua Viagem) by Joao A. Mascarenhas Judice, Visconde de Lagoa. Lisbon 1938: Seara Nova, pp. 217-236. Scott, William Henry. Barangay, Sixteenth-Century Philippine Culture and Society. Manila 1994: Ateneo de Manila University Press, p. 294. -----Looking for the Pre-Hispanic Filipino. Quezon City 1992: New Day Publishers, pp. 43, 61. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jul 28 05:18:42 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA20108 (ESMTP). Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:18:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA24862. Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:17:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA24858 (ESMTP). Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:17:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA16723 (ESMTP). Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:17:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01463 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:17:00 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default ([210.23.218.229]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id LAA27837 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:16:58 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <001901bff662$0a516e80$0cf117d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: References: <002c01bff5c2$ef513380$29f017d2@default> <398087A1.61683D31@bcn.net> Subject: Re: [EXP] Apologies to Martin Torodash Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:56:35 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: Overlee Farm Books To: Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 3:04 AM Subject: Re: [EXP] Apologies to Martin Torodash "vicente c. de jesus" wrote: > I owe Martin Torodash an apology. A wrong turn of phrase--"in lieu of"--may > have given the impression one can do without "Magellan Historiography." It > was a way of excusing my failure to obtain a copy through more resolute and > skillful search. Would it be possible to access it through the Internet? Your apology has been noted. No, it would not be possible to access it through the internet unless the Hispanic American Historical Review has the requisite capacity/ability to do so and I do not have a single offprint left. Martin Torodash I have just confirmed with the librarian of Ateneo de Manila University, one of the top schools in the Philippines, they have the HAHR. It should have been obvious to me because the Reverend John N. Schumacher, S.J., is with the Ateneo faculty. I hope to remedy soonest a major deficiency in my education on Magellan. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jul 28 05:51:55 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA20770 (ESMTP). Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:51:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA24904. Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:50:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA24900 (ESMTP). Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:50:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA16795 (ESMTP). Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:50:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07456 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:50:04 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default ([210.23.218.241]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id LAA23754 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:50:01 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <002f01bff666$a7cd2600$0cf117d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: References: <002b01bff629$6bedc5a0$e2f517d2@default> <39805758.493E3E6E@portolangroup.com> Subject: Re: [EXP] Magellan quote and comment Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:27:04 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01BFF6A8.FCCE9980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BFF6A8.FCCE9980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Phil Stover=20 To: discovery@win.tue.nl=20 Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 11:38 PM Subject: [EXP] Magellan quote and comment Vicente, et al:=20 Thanks for the conclusion regarding the quote. It appears to be quite = fictitious.=20 As for my "mind and heart" when I asked the question............=20 The entire graphic design of my company (logo, brochures, letterhead, = etc.) is based on a sea chart theme. I am an enthusiastic collector and = student of sea charts. My office is decorated with a number of 17th = century sea charts, 17th and 18th century wind roses, various de Bry and = Montanus portraits (Linschoten, Magellan, etc.), quotes from "Ulysses" = and pictures of Finnish sailing ship models that I took in various = Finnish churches. These models by the way, are magnificently detailed = ships that hang in the sanctuary of many rural Finnish churches. They = reminded the parishioners to pray for their men, while at sea. I have = looked, but have never seen any literature on them. They are large, = intimately detailed, and generally fascinating (uh oh, sounds like a = commercial endorsement!).=20 While strolling my local mall, I saw for sale a large picture of a = sailing ship in a storm with the Magellan quote underneath it. I have a = number of Magellan biographies in my library, but was not familiar with = the quote. Prior to purchasing the picture, I wanted to get some = verification that the quote was authentic. I immediately thought of the = discovery group as the best source of such information. While I have a = number of books on fictitious islands in my library, I did not want a = fictitious quote on my wall.=20 My question created some wonderful dialogue on Magellan sources. For = that I am grateful. For the rancor, I am sorry.=20 By the way, my very favorite picture hanging on my wall is not = authentic. It is a poster showing a number of sailing ships teetering = over the edge of the sea, ready to fall off. The title is simply, "I = TOLD YOU SO". It is delightful!=20 Many many years ago when I was serving as a dean and professor in the = academic world, I was an editor of The Journal of Psychology and = Theology. It was all quite heady and academically rigorous and proper. = Maybe I am mistaken, but that is not how I few the culture and/or intent = of such groups as discovery.=20 I see this more as a forum, a community of diverse people with even = more diverse backgrounds. I fear less we apply too rigorous a standard = to comments and questions posted here. If we do that, we exclude all = the enthusiasts, the lovers of discovery who may have no formal = background or training in The Chicago Style of Writing, or in my case = the APA writing style. If we intimidate people into merely lurking, we = lose the energy, the synergy they might bring to us with their = contributions.=20 If this is a community...then all should be welcome. If it is an = academic forum, then it should be identified as such, and non-discovery = academicians should stay away. My fear is that while that might improve = the grammar, punctuation and academic propriety of the list, it would = diminish the simplicity, the naivet=E9 and the innocence out of which = learning and discovery takes place. Where would the accuracy of sea = charts have been without the fishermen and traders?=20 Certainly, I, for example, am not a scholar of the History of = Discoveries. I do not write my mails with an eye to exactness in = punctuation and grammar (I will try and do better). I would like to = believe, however, that if I conduct myself well, show respect, and not = waste the group's time, that I will be welcome. That is, it seems to = me, what leads to discoveries It is what a community is all about.=20 Best regards,=20 Phil=20 =20 =20 =20 "vaccinate c. de jesus" wrote:=20 Lest the Stover quest for the authenticity of the Magellan quote is = totally=20 swamped by the furious and heated exchanges, it appears the cause = celebre=20 owes its life to an invention. I have a vision of the great = navigator--the=20 greatest, if Bourne will have it--saying somewhere up there in the=20 Magellanic cloud, "I wish I had said it!"=20 Vicente C. de Jesus Dear Phil, Thanks for your very apt remarks to which I fully agree. And thanks = for my new sobriquet. I'm taking it in good spirit and in a positive = light. I hope no one will disabuse me on that. Also, if at some point I = spoke out of turn or offended anyone, my sincere apologies.=20 Vicente C. de Jesus --=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BFF6A8.FCCE9980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Phil Stover
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 = 11:38=20 PM
Subject: [EXP] Magellan quote = and=20 comment

Vicente, et al:=20

Thanks for the conclusion regarding the quote.  It appears to = be quite=20 fictitious.=20

As for my "mind and heart" when I asked the question............=20

The entire graphic design of my company (logo, brochures, = letterhead, etc.)=20 is based on a sea chart theme.  I am an enthusiastic collector = and=20 student of sea charts.  My office is decorated with a number of = 17th=20 century sea charts, 17th and 18th century wind roses, various de Bry = and=20 Montanus portraits (Linschoten, Magellan, etc.), quotes from "Ulysses" = and=20 pictures of Finnish sailing ship models that I took in various Finnish = churches.  These models by the way, are magnificently detailed = ships that=20 hang in the sanctuary of many rural Finnish churches.  They = reminded the=20 parishioners to pray for their men, while at sea.  I have looked, = but=20 have never seen any literature on them.  They are large, = intimately=20 detailed, and generally fascinating (uh oh, sounds like a commercial=20 endorsement!).=20

While strolling my local mall, I saw for sale a large picture of a = sailing=20 ship in a storm with the Magellan quote underneath it.  I have a = number=20 of Magellan biographies in my library, but was not familiar with the=20 quote.  Prior to purchasing the picture, I wanted to get some=20 verification that the quote was authentic.  I immediately thought = of the=20 discovery group as the best source of such information.  While I = have a=20 number of books on fictitious islands in my library, I did not want a=20 fictitious quote on my wall.=20

My question created some wonderful dialogue on Magellan = sources.  For=20 that I am grateful.  For the rancor, I am sorry.=20

By the way, my very favorite picture hanging on my wall is not=20 authentic.  It is a poster showing a number of sailing ships = teetering=20 over the edge of the sea, ready to fall off.  The title is = simply, "I=20 TOLD YOU SO".  It is delightful!=20

Many many years ago when I was serving as a dean and professor in = the=20 academic world, I was an editor of  The Journal of Psychology = and=20 Theology.  It was all quite heady and academically rigorous = and=20 proper.  Maybe I am mistaken, but that is not how I few the = culture=20 and/or intent of such groups as discovery.=20

I see this more as a forum, a community of diverse people with even = more=20 diverse backgrounds.  I fear less we apply too rigorous a = standard to=20 comments and questions posted here.  If we do that, we exclude = all the=20 enthusiasts, the lovers of discovery who may have no formal background = or=20 training in The Chicago Style of Writing, or in my case the APA = writing=20 style.  If we intimidate people into merely lurking, we lose the = energy,=20 the synergy they might bring to us with their contributions.=20

If this is a community...then all should be welcome.  If it is = an=20 academic forum, then it should be identified as such, and = non-discovery=20 academicians should stay away.  My fear is that while that might = improve=20 the grammar, punctuation and academic propriety of the list, it would = diminish=20 the simplicity, the naivet=E9 and the innocence out of which learning = and=20 discovery takes place.  Where would the accuracy of sea charts = have been=20 without the fishermen and traders?=20

Certainly, I, for example, am not a scholar of the History of=20 Discoveries.  I do not write my mails with an eye to exactness in = punctuation and grammar (I will try and do better).  I would like = to=20 believe, however, that if I conduct myself well, show respect, and not = waste=20 the group's time, that I will be welcome.  That is, it seems to = me, what=20 leads to discoveries  It is what a community is all about.=20

Best regards,
Phil
 
 
 =20

"vaccinate c. de jesus" wrote:=20

Lest the Stover quest for the authenticity = of the=20 Magellan quote is totally
swamped by the furious and heated = exchanges,=20 it appears the cause celebre
owes its life to an invention. I = have a=20 vision of the great navigator--the
greatest, if Bourne will have = it--saying somewhere up there in the
Magellanic cloud, "I wish I = had=20 said it!"=20

Vicente C. de Jesus

Dear Phil,

Thanks for your very apt remarks to which I fully agree. And = thanks for=20 my new sobriquet. I'm taking it in good spirit and in a positive = light. I=20 hope no one will disabuse me on that. Also, if at some point I spoke = out of=20 turn or offended anyone, my sincere apologies.=20

Vicente C. de Jesus

 

 

--
 

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BFF6A8.FCCE9980-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 02:32:40 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA05953 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 02:32:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA28591. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 02:31:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA28587 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 02:31:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lynx.ncia.net [208.197.116.10] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA05925 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 02:31:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ncia.net (lac-flex199.ncia.net [208.197.116.199]) by lynx.ncia.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17240 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 19:31:03 -0400 Message-ID: <39837654.A770278F@ncia.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:27:00 -0400 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000727134913.00bd1b70@pop3.demon.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO To the whole List: Henny Savenije wrote: "I also think it is typical for ANY mailing list that the Americans in general shout the loudest with these kind of mistakes and disregard any respect for other persons. " Recently I have written for a course "rules" for netiquette and I would suggest anyone to handle like that." I have been astonished that no American has taken Henry Savinje to task. There isn't the time to recount to him what Americans have done to preserve freedom in the world. Young not-so-immature Henry would not have had an opportunity to speak out as he did had it not been for the United States of America. Anyone who knows history can read him the litany of facts, including the numbers of Ameicans who made the supreme sacrifice to make this world safe for him. Sorry, Henry Savinje: you have no the right to lecture others on how to behave themselves on the internet. We are a diverse nation and we argue among ourselves over gut wrenching issues like abortion, taxes, paying for religious schools and how much to set aside for miltary defense. But when faced with an insult like yours we forget our differences, and almost to a person are insulted by your egregious ingratitude. An apology will do you no good. What you said: "The Americans . . . disregard any respect for other persons" is too far over the line to be excused. These were words just below your consciousness that you blurted because they're part and parcel of you. You're a bigot. You're prejudiced. You're anti-American from inside out. Americans bridle at anti-Americanism. The vast majority bridle at all anti-isms, most of which are based on envy. Don't try to apologize, Henry Savinje. What you uttered is too heinous and ungrateful to be expunged by an apology. There is no room here for detail, but I notice that you sign your messages with a note of pride in Korea. Assuming you mean South Korea . . . I spent 27 months fighting for your homeland's existence along with a few hundred thousand others. Some of us never returned. You ought to dig a hole in the ground and disappear. Who in the world are you to lecture others about "Netiquette?" I want nothing more to do with you. Do not ever communicate with me in any fashion whatever. Deadly seriously, Richard Burack From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 04:15:06 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA09571 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:15:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA28690. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:14:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA28686 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:14:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA09505 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:14:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23460 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 11:27:57 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000730111251.00ad8a30@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 11:21:54 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences In-Reply-To: <39837654.A770278F@ncia.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000727134913.00bd1b70@pop3.demon.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 09:27 AM 7/30/00, you wrote: >To the whole List: > >Henny Savenije wrote: > >I have been astonished that no American has taken Henry Savinje to task. First you have to learn to write my name right. >There isn't the time to recount to him what Americans have done to >preserve freedom in the world. Well there are scores of books written about the subject and I don't think they had any choice after Pearl Harbor. >Young not-so-immature Henry You have no idea how old I am. >would not have had an opportunity to speak out as he did had it not been >for the United States of America. Anyone who knows history can read him >the litany of facts, including the numbers of Ameicans who made the >supreme sacrifice to make this world safe for him. Well if the Americans wouldn't have done it probably they would have been part of the combined Japanese German empire. Don't think it's only self-sacrifice. >Sorry, Henry Savinje: Again, get my name right. >you have no the right to lecture others on how to behave themselves on the >internet. We are a diverse nation and we argue >among ourselves over gut wrenching issues like abortion, taxes, paying for >religious schools and how much to set aside for miltary defense. But >when faced with an insult like yours we forget our differences, and almost >to a person are insulted by your egregious ingratitude. Discussing is not the same as calling names. >An apology will do you no good. What you said: "The Americans . . >.disregard any respect for other persons" is too far over the line to be >excused. These were words just below your consciousness that you blurted >because they're part and parcel of you. You're a bigot. You're >prejudiced. You're anti-American from inside out. Nope, but I am appalled by the behavior a lot of Americans expose on the internet. (Not all of them) >Americans bridle at anti-Americanism. The vast majority bridle at all >anti-isms, most of which are based on envy. > >Don't try to apologize, I won't, since this is my sincere belief and as you pointed out, I am entitled to my opinion. Wasn't it Voltaire (you might be amazed, but he was not an American) who said something like: "I don't agree with you, but I will defend the right for you to say it, with my life" >Henry Savinje. Well at least you make the mistake persistently ;-) But looking at the header of your own letter would have helped a lot. >What you uttered is too heinous and ungrateful to be expunged by an apology. As I said, I won't this is my sincere belief. >There is no room here for detail, but I notice that you sign your messages >with a note of pride in Korea. Assuming you mean South Korea . >. . I spent 27 months fighting for your homeland's existence along with a >few hundred thousand others. Some of us never returned. I know, there were quite a few Dutchmen over there as well. I won't repeat what some of them had to say about the Americans over there. I too, had a relative who never returned. >You ought to dig a hole in the ground and disappear. Who in the worldare >you to lecture others about "Netiquette?" Maybe people like you? >I want nothing more to do with you. Do not ever communicate with me in any >fashion whatever. Well that's why we have a "delete" key ;-) ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 04:27:48 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA09781 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:27:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA28758. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:27:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA28754 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:27:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailsorter-105-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.119] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA21790 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:27:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from storefull-136.iap.bryant.webtv.net (storefull-136.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.124]) by mailsorter-105-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id 306FF71D for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 19:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-136.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-e/mt.gso.26Feb98) id TAA11552; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 19:27:31 -0700 (PDT) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRZIcaf7koYbYvrLZul7kRLE2PCtAIUDZxvGM6C6hOu5nxexZ9AgY9c46I= From: jej1a@webtv.net (John) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 21:27:30 -0500 (CDT) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences Message-ID: <18072-39839292-1573@storefull-136.iap.bryant.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Richard Burack 's message of Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:27:00 -0400 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-30755-801 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO --WebTV-Mail-30755-801 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Mr. Burack, As an American, I am shamed by the fact that it was you, not I, that wrote the letter defending us. The thoughts you spoke entered my mind, ut that was as far as they got. If, indeed, the gentleman is South Korean, it won't be long before he'll be singing a different tune and begging for the Americans to come to his countries aid, whch iof course, we shall do, That is the nature of the American and the American way. I applaud you sir, for saying what I and many, man others should have said. Best regards, John E Johnson --WebTV-Mail-30755-801 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-101-12.iap.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.49) by storefull-134.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 17:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailsorter-101-12.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/ms.dwm.v7+dul2) with ESMTP id RAA20658; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 17:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA28591. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 02:31:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA28587 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 02:31:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lynx.ncia.net [208.197.116.10] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA05925 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 02:31:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ncia.net (lac-flex199.ncia.net [208.197.116.199]) by lynx.ncia.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17240 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 19:31:03 -0400 Message-ID: <39837654.A770278F@ncia.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:27:00 -0400 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000727134913.00bd1b70@pop3.demon.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl To the whole List: Henny Savenije wrote: "I also think it is typical for ANY mailing list that the Americans in general shout the loudest with these kind of mistakes and disregard any respect for other persons. " Recently I have written for a course "rules" for netiquette and I would suggest anyone to handle like that." I have been astonished that no American has taken Henry Savinje to task. There isn't the time to recount to him what Americans have done to preserve freedom in the world. Young not-so-immature Henry would not have had an opportunity to speak out as he did had it not been for the United States of America. Anyone who knows history can read him the litany of facts, including the numbers of Ameicans who made the supreme sacrifice to make this world safe for him. Sorry, Henry Savinje: you have no the right to lecture others on how to behave themselves on the internet. We are a diverse nation and we argue among ourselves over gut wrenching issues like abortion, taxes, paying for religious schools and how much to set aside for miltary defense. But when faced with an insult like yours we forget our differences, and almost to a person are insulted by your egregious ingratitude. An apology will do you no good. What you said: "The Americans . . . disregard any respect for other persons" is too far over the line to be excused. These were words just below your consciousness that you blurted because they're part and parcel of you. You're a bigot. You're prejudiced. You're anti-American from inside out. Americans bridle at anti-Americanism. The vast majority bridle at all anti-isms, most of which are based on envy. Don't try to apologize, Henry Savinje. What you uttered is too heinous and ungrateful to be expunged by an apology. There is no room here for detail, but I notice that you sign your messages with a note of pride in Korea. Assuming you mean South Korea . . . I spent 27 months fighting for your homeland's existence along with a few hundred thousand others. Some of us never returned. You ought to dig a hole in the ground and disappear. Who in the world are you to lecture others about "Netiquette?" I want nothing more to do with you. Do not ever communicate with me in any fashion whatever. Deadly seriously, Richard Burack --WebTV-Mail-30755-801-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 05:20:13 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA11558 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 05:20:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA28807. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 05:19:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA28803 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 05:19:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA11540 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 05:19:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23504 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:32:50 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000730122214.00afb350@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:26:44 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences In-Reply-To: <18072-39839292-1573@storefull-136.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 11:27 AM 7/30/00, you wrote: >Mr. Burack, >As an American, I am shamed by the fact that it was you, not I, that wrote >the letter defending us. The thoughts you spoke entered my mind, >ut that was as far as they got. Actually I wasn't even saying that much, and I think you all prove my point by making such a fuss about it. >If, indeed, the gentleman is South Korean, I am not. >it won't be long before he'll be singing a different tune and begging for >the Americans to come to his >countries aid, whch iof course, we shall do, That is the nature of the >American and the American way. Well I don't think it's all self-sacrifice. >I applaud you sir, for saying what I and many, man others should have said. Well I applaud him for saying something, but the tone could have been different. I don't mind if people disagree, but at least they could have the decency to try to figure to remain polite and try to figure out WHY a person is doing this. I know the list IS predominantly American, because there are just a lot of them. But that doesn't mean values of the Old World don't count anymore. After all there are still MORE people outside of America than inside and they do have a different set of values. I think the both of you disregard the fact that those people want to be respected too. ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 07:22:29 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA15209 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:22:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id HAA28961. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:22:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA28957 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:22:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA15200 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:22:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23566 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:35:09 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000730142252.00adec50@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:28:30 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences In-Reply-To: <39837654.A770278F@ncia.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000727134913.00bd1b70@pop3.demon.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I forgot to add a few things At 09:27 AM 7/30/00, Richard Burack wrote: >To the whole List: > >I have been astonished that no American has taken Henry Savinje to task. Maybe the majority agrees with me. ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 07:26:02 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA15252 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:26:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id HAA28970. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:26:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA28966 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:25:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA21902 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:25:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23571 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:38:58 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000730143106.00adb910@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:32:50 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I forgot to add a few things At 09:27 AM 7/30/00, Richard Burack wrote: >To the whole List: > >I have been astonished that no American has taken Henry Savinje to task. Maybe the majority agrees with me. I remember Mr. Burack. We have had a similar discussion before. Please let's not get into this again, but I also have on my HDD the old emails in which he made many mistakes and blames other people for this. I don't hope it's necessary to post this all again. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 07:31:35 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA15365 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:31:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id HAA28978. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:31:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA28974 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:31:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lorica.ucc.usyd.edu.au [129.78.64.15] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA21908 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:31:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.usyd.edu.au (p6258.net10.usyd.edu.au [10.0.24.114]) by lorica.ucc.usyd.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04523 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:31:14 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3983BDD3.D87391FA@mail.usyd.edu.au> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:32:03 +1000 From: Robin Anscomb X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences and stupid responses References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000727134913.00bd1b70@pop3.demon.nl> <39837654.A770278F@ncia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Richard Burack wrote: > To the whole List: > > There isn't the time to recount to him what Americans have done to > preserve freedom in the world. Oh how I wish americans such as Richard knew what irony means. > Anyone who knows history can read him the > litany of facts, including the numbers of Ameicans who made the supreme > sacrifice to make this world safe for him. By dropping nuclear weapons on civilians, losing conflicts in which they had no place, and being rejected by populations who valued self determination above the cultural hegemony of a bully? By inventing catch-all phrases like 'friendly fire' for shooting ones own troops, or 'collateral damage' for killing non combatants and civilians? By delaying entry to major conflicts until the tide of events is clear, then riding in to take a 'decisive role'? None of these aspects of the 'ugly american' belong in this forum, but having been introduced by Richard, warrant a response before returning to the focus. I am fully aware that my response is in itself a reification of the pseudo-topic generated by Richard, and for that I freely apologize to all, but cannot let the introduction of so gross a misperception of topic go uncommented. Richard's last few lines are childlike, childish and beneath response. I can only pity. Robin Anscomb From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 07:49:54 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA15639 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:49:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id HAA29006. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:49:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA29002 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:49:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.118] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA21915 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:49:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from storefull-132.iap.bryant.webtv.net (storefull-132.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.115]) by mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6C62C706 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 22:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production@localhost) by storefull-132.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-e/mt.gso.26Feb98) id WAA24621; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 22:49:40 -0700 (PDT) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAzArxUFjnLwaVXmqbWLuDc/fvLrQCFCBZhqX5CIZ7y7bjRWV/SZpfsKPA From: jej1a@webtv.net (John) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 00:49:40 -0500 (CDT) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences Message-ID: <22503-3983C1F4-1351@storefull-132.iap.bryant.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Henny Savenije 's message of Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:26:44 +0900 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-8032-726 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO --WebTV-Mail-8032-726 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Sir: Please be advised that I do, indeed, value the opinions of you and others around the world, including Americans. It will probably surprise you to know that my inteests are not even in American history but rather 18th and 19th century Europe and in particular Europeon coloniztion by the British of both Indian and Afirica, as well as the French and Spanish My letter was written for the very reason it stated, to say what i wish I had said upon reading your letter, in which you showed strong anti-American feelings which you can do in this country and can't even in some of the more enlightened countries without fear of retribution, and that reason alone sir, is the reason for my response. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my letter John Johnson --WebTV-Mail-8032-726 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-101-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.97) by storefull-137.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailsorter-101-1.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-d/ms.dwm.v7+dul2) with ESMTP id UAA14447; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA28807. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 05:19:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA28803 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 05:19:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA11540 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 05:19:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23504 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:32:50 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000730122214.00afb350@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:26:44 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences In-Reply-To: <18072-39839292-1573@storefull-136.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl At 11:27 AM 7/30/00, you wrote: >Mr. Burack, >As an American, I am shamed by the fact that it was you, not I, that wrote >the letter defending us. The thoughts you spoke entered my mind, >ut that was as far as they got. Actually I wasn't even saying that much, and I think you all prove my point by making such a fuss about it. >If, indeed, the gentleman is South Korean, I am not. >it won't be long before he'll be singing a different tune and begging for >the Americans to come to his >countries aid, whch iof course, we shall do, That is the nature of the >American and the American way. Well I don't think it's all self-sacrifice. >I applaud you sir, for saying what I and many, man others should have said. Well I applaud him for saying something, but the tone could have been different. I don't mind if people disagree, but at least they could have the decency to try to figure to remain polite and try to figure out WHY a person is doing this. I know the list IS predominantly American, because there are just a lot of them. But that doesn't mean values of the Old World don't count anymore. After all there are still MORE people outside of America than inside and they do have a different set of values. I think the both of you disregard the fact that those people want to be respected too. ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm --WebTV-Mail-8032-726-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 08:30:14 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA17216 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:30:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id IAA29072. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:29:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA29068 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:29:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA17186 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:29:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23597 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:41:57 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000730152544.00ada3e0@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:35:54 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences In-Reply-To: <22503-3983C1F4-1351@storefull-132.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 02:49 PM 7/30/00, John Johnson wrote: >Sir: >It will probably surprise you to know that my inteests are not even in >American history but rather 18th and 19th century Europe and in particular >Europeon coloniztion by the British of both Indian and Afirica, as well as >the French and Spanish No I am not surprised, why do you assume so? >My letter was written for the very reason it stated, to say what i wish I >had said upon reading your letter, in which you showed strong >anti-American feelings I still don't understand that my feeling was strongly anti-American, I think you didn't even read mine. All I said was the following: >I know Phil from another list as an upright and honest person. In the past >too he made (other not commercial) mistakes, for which he was attacked >without much ground. I also think it is typical for ANY mailing list that >the Americans in general shout the loudest with these kind of mistakes and >disregard any respect for other persons. Phil IS American and didn't even bother to respond to the list. I think he has class and style and observing that "Americans in general shout ..." etc. can hardly be considered to be anti-American. >which you can do in this country and can't even in some of the more >enlightened countries without fear of retribution, I think you can do this in Canada, most European countries which would be the more enlightened countries, and mm, let me see, even South Korea where I happen to live, though they don't like it to come from non-Koreans, but it IS allowed. >and that reason alone sir, is the reason for my response. Well if you really could tell me what was so anti-American, I will happy to response again, as I said, you are merely proving my point. >Thank you for taking the time to respond to my letter The pleasure was all mine. ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 14:12:24 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA27910 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:12:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA29396. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:12:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA29392 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:12:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f320.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.8.195] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA22254 (SMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:12:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 37016 invoked by uid 0); 30 Jul 2000 12:11:38 -0000 Message-ID: <20000730121138.37015.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 203.30.236.67 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 05:11:37 PDT X-Originating-IP: [203.30.236.67] From: "Stephen McKenzie" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Robert Thorne Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:41:37 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hi All, Firstly, some pedantry - I think his name is Roger Barlow(e) - that's the fellow who wrote 'Briefe Summe of Geographie', at any rate - although in fact he didn't really write it - it's a translation of a Portuguese text as far as I can remember. Taylor has a whole chapter on Thorne and Barlowe in 'Tudor Geography', as well as the lengthy introduction to Haklutyt Society edition of the 'Briefe Summe of Geographie' that has already been mentioned. Barlowe may have had a brother, Thomas, but I don't thionk it was him that wrote the text in question. Stephen McKenzie, Adelaide. >From: Joel Kovarsky >Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: [EXP] Robert Thorne >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:23:18 -0400 > >Hakluyt, Richard Divers Voyages Touching on the Discoverie of America >Fairfield, Ye Galleon Press, 1981 (reprint edition- limited issue) > > This may have something in it. Joel Kovarsky > > > > >>>Does anybody on this list have any information that would lead me to >>>sources, such as a biography or dissertations, concerning two English >>>navigators, Thomas Barlow or Robert Thorne, who flourished about 1530 - >>>1560. >>>It is not much to go on I know, but it is all I have at the moment. >>> >>>Robin Anscomb >> >>________________________________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 16:45:46 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA02351 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 16:45:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA29610. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 16:45:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA29606 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 16:45:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA02340 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 16:45:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from Win95 (ha-1o-men-p5-m13.mcn.org [63.193.12.217]) by mail.mcn.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id e6UEjEM11660 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000730074411.0096fa40@mail.mcn.org> X-Sender: oseeler@mail.mcn.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:44:11 -0700 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Oliver Seeler Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences and stupid responses In-Reply-To: <3983BDD3.D87391FA@mail.usyd.edu.au> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000727134913.00bd1b70@pop3.demon.nl> <39837654.A770278F@ncia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 15:32 7/30/00 +1000, Robin Anscomb (ranscomb@mail.usyd.edu.au) pontificated: [snip long anti-American rant] >I am fully aware that my response is in itself a reification of the >pseudo-topic generated by Richard, and for that I freely apologize to all, >but cannot let the introduction of so gross a misperception of topic go >uncommented. Richard's last few lines are childlike, childish and beneath >response. I can only pity. > >Robin Anscomb In an attempt to keep to my earlier stated intention of not persuing this off-topic thread on the list I responded privately to Mr. Anscomb's above calculated misrepresentation of the genesis of this thread. He didn't care for my remarks and made what I suppose he considers a personal threat: "Am I at liberty to send a copy of your vituperative e-mail to the History Channel? It was a public mailing after all, and therefore in the public domain." The History Channel, I point out, has recommended my Sir Francis Drake web site - the oldest and most-visited site on the web on that topic. I also point out that the History Channel has in no way been mentioned anywhere in this thread, except in my sig file. Mr. Anscomb thinks he can harm me by forwarding my private mail to them. Had this threat been accompanied by any demand whatever, it would have constituted a crime, at least here in California; as it is, it's merely despicable. So, in order to protect myself from further chicanery by this potentially dangerous individual, or from his apparent lack of understanding about the nature of private correspondance, I'm now compelled to make my email to Mr. Anscomb public myself. Here it is: [Begin quotation:] Note: This is a private email, not a list posting (I point that out because your observational abilities are demonstrably deficient). At 15:32 7/30/00 +1000, you wrote on Discovery: [deletion of much silly prattle] >I am fully aware that my response is in itself a reification of the >pseudo-topic generated by Richard, and for that I freely apologize to all, >but cannot let the introduction of so gross a misperception of topic go >uncommented. I have no interest whatsoever in your utterly boring cliches regarding Americans but if before wasting your (and our) time constructing pompous sophomoric sentences you had first gone back over the thread, you would have found that it was the thoroughly obnoxious Savenije, not Mr. Burack, who lit this fire, in fine trolling fashion. Savenije interjected his xenophobic drivel without the slightest provocation; now here you are, your nose firmly planted between his cheeks, doing his petty little work for him. Take a sniff, mate, and tell us all again how good it smells! Oliver Seeler Director, Nova Albion Research [End quotation] Sorry to bother the list with this, but I feel that for my personal protection I can't allow this scurrilous threat from Mr. Anscomb to go unanswered. Thanks for your patience. Regards, Oliver Oliver Seeler Director, Nova Albion Research oseeler@mcn.org & bagpipes@mcn.org ~visit our sites~ ***The Universe of Bagpipes*** ~over 30 kinds of bagpipes~ ~sound clips & hundreds of photos~ ~a new CD, Bagpipes of the World~ http://www.hotpipes.com ~ A Yahoo! Weekly Pick ~ ~and~ *** Sir Francis Drake *** ~ an international educational resource ~ http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/drake.htm ~ recommended by The History Channel ~ From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 17:14:41 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA03757 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:14:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA29639. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:14:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA29635 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:14:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@[213.162.192.13] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA22481 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:14:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dmartin ([213.162.194.41]) by gema.activanet.es (8.9.3+3.2W/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA00217 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:17:08 +0200 Message-ID: <00ba01bffa38$c16382a0$29c2a2d5@dmartin> From: "DENISE MARTIN" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences and stupid responses Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:13:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Gentlemen .. please be polite to each other, you are spoiling my enjoyment. Thank you. DM Spain -----Original Message----- From: Oliver Seeler To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sunday, July 30, 2000 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences and stupid responses >At 15:32 7/30/00 +1000, Robin Anscomb (ranscomb@mail.usyd.edu.au) >pontificated: > >[snip long anti-American rant] > >>I am fully aware that my response is in itself a reification of the >>pseudo-topic generated by Richard, and for that I freely apologize to all, >>but cannot let the introduction of so gross a misperception of topic go >>uncommented. Richard's last few lines are childlike, childish and beneath >>response. I can only pity. >> >>Robin Anscomb > >In an attempt to keep to my earlier stated intention of not persuing this >off-topic thread on the list I responded privately to Mr. Anscomb's above >calculated misrepresentation of the genesis of this thread. He didn't care >for my remarks and made what I suppose he considers a personal threat: > > "Am I at liberty to send a copy of your vituperative e-mail to the History >Channel? It was a public mailing after all, and therefore in the public >domain." > >The History Channel, I point out, has recommended my Sir Francis Drake web >site - the oldest and most-visited site on the web on that topic. I also >point out that the History Channel has in no way been mentioned anywhere >in this thread, except in my sig file. Mr. Anscomb thinks he can harm me by >forwarding my private mail to them. Had this threat been accompanied by any >demand whatever, it would have constituted a crime, at least here in >California; as it is, it's merely despicable. So, in order to protect >myself from further chicanery by this potentially dangerous individual, or >from his apparent lack of understanding about the nature of private >correspondance, I'm now compelled to make my email to Mr. Anscomb public >myself. Here it is: > >[Begin quotation:] > >Note: This is a private email, not a list posting (I point that out because >your observational abilities are demonstrably deficient). > >At 15:32 7/30/00 +1000, you wrote on Discovery: > >[deletion of much silly prattle] > >>I am fully aware that my response is in itself a reification of the >>pseudo-topic generated by Richard, and for that I freely apologize to all, >>but cannot let the introduction of so gross a misperception of topic go >>uncommented. > >I have no interest whatsoever in your utterly boring cliches regarding >Americans but if before wasting your (and our) time constructing pompous >sophomoric sentences you had first gone back over the thread, you would >have found that it was the thoroughly obnoxious Savenije, not Mr. Burack, >who lit this fire, in fine trolling fashion. Savenije interjected his >xenophobic drivel without the slightest provocation; now here you are, your >nose firmly planted between his cheeks, doing his petty little work for >him. Take a sniff, mate, and tell us all again how good it smells! > > Oliver Seeler > Director, Nova Albion Research > >[End quotation] > >Sorry to bother the list with this, but I feel that for my personal >protection I can't allow this scurrilous threat from Mr. Anscomb to go >unanswered. Thanks for your patience. > > Regards, > > Oliver > > Oliver Seeler > Director, Nova Albion Research > oseeler@mcn.org & bagpipes@mcn.org > > ~visit our sites~ > ***The Universe of Bagpipes*** > ~over 30 kinds of bagpipes~ > ~sound clips & hundreds of photos~ > ~a new CD, Bagpipes of the World~ > http://www.hotpipes.com > ~ A Yahoo! Weekly Pick ~ > > ~and~ > > *** Sir Francis Drake *** > ~ an international educational resource ~ > http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/drake.htm > ~ recommended by The History Channel ~ > > > > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 17:34:44 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA04100 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:34:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA29664. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:34:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA29660 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:34:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA22497 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:34:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23829 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:47:31 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000731003918.00bce100@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:41:00 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences and stupid responses In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000730074411.0096fa40@mail.mcn.org> References: <3983BDD3.D87391FA@mail.usyd.edu.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20000727134913.00bd1b70@pop3.demon.nl> <39837654.A770278F@ncia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 11:44 PM 7/30/00, Oliver Seeler wrote: >At 15:32 7/30/00 +1000, Robin Anscomb (ranscomb@mail.usyd.edu.au) > http://www.hotpipes.com > ~ A Yahoo! Weekly Pick ~ Probably they forgot the r before the P ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 18:30:48 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA06029 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:30:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA29733. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:30:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA29729 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:30:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA06013 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:30:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA23858 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:42:17 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000731013342.00cefdf0@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:35:47 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences and stupid responses In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000731003918.00bce100@pop3.demon.nl> References: <3.0.6.32.20000730074411.0096fa40@mail.mcn.org> <3983BDD3.D87391FA@mail.usyd.edu.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20000727134913.00bd1b70@pop3.demon.nl> <39837654.A770278F@ncia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 12:41 AM 7/31/00, Henny Savenije wrote amongst others: >Probably they forgot the r before the P Oops, just looked it up in the dictionary and this was not the intention. Sorry for that, I had thought that it meant something else. Vulgarity was not the intention, my English now and then, when it comes to slang, is far from perfect. Sorry for that. ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 20:43:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA10252 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:43:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id UAA29903. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:43:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA29899 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:43:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from IDENT:root@ambr.mtholyoke.edu [138.110.1.10] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA22726 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:43:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mhc.mtholyoke.edu (mhc.mtholyoke.edu [138.110.1.1]) by ambr.mtholyoke.edu (8.9.1/v000504-1809) with ESMTP id OAA06856 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (mmcmenam@localhost) by mhc.mtholyoke.edu (8.7.3/v000508-1820) with ESMTP id OAA10479 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:43:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Mark A. McMenamin" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences and stupid responses In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000730074411.0096fa40@mail.mcn.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Well, sure, it is easy to criticize any culture, nation, group of people, etc. For this passing century at least, judge us by what we did with rocket science and what we did not do with nuclear weaponry. God Bless America. || Mark McMenamin || Department of Earth and Environment || Mount Holyoke College || South Hadley, MA 01075 || 413 538-2280 FX-2239 On Sun, 30 Jul 2000, Oliver Seeler wrote: > Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:44:11 -0700 > From: Oliver Seeler > Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl > To: discovery@win.tue.nl > Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences and > stupid responses > > At 15:32 7/30/00 +1000, Robin Anscomb (ranscomb@mail.usyd.edu.au) > pontificated: > > [snip long anti-American rant] > > >I am fully aware that my response is in itself a reification of the > >pseudo-topic generated by Richard, and for that I freely apologize to all, > >but cannot let the introduction of so gross a misperception of topic go > >uncommented. Richard's last few lines are childlike, childish and beneath > >response. I can only pity. > > > >Robin Anscomb > > In an attempt to keep to my earlier stated intention of not persuing this > off-topic thread on the list I responded privately to Mr. Anscomb's above > calculated misrepresentation of the genesis of this thread. He didn't care > for my remarks and made what I suppose he considers a personal threat: > > "Am I at liberty to send a copy of your vituperative e-mail to the History > Channel? It was a public mailing after all, and therefore in the public > domain." > > The History Channel, I point out, has recommended my Sir Francis Drake web > site - the oldest and most-visited site on the web on that topic. I also > point out that the History Channel has in no way been mentioned anywhere > in this thread, except in my sig file. Mr. Anscomb thinks he can harm me by > forwarding my private mail to them. Had this threat been accompanied by any > demand whatever, it would have constituted a crime, at least here in > California; as it is, it's merely despicable. So, in order to protect > myself from further chicanery by this potentially dangerous individual, or > from his apparent lack of understanding about the nature of private > correspondance, I'm now compelled to make my email to Mr. Anscomb public > myself. Here it is: > > [Begin quotation:] > > Note: This is a private email, not a list posting (I point that out because > your observational abilities are demonstrably deficient). > > At 15:32 7/30/00 +1000, you wrote on Discovery: > > [deletion of much silly prattle] > > >I am fully aware that my response is in itself a reification of the > >pseudo-topic generated by Richard, and for that I freely apologize to all, > >but cannot let the introduction of so gross a misperception of topic go > >uncommented. > > I have no interest whatsoever in your utterly boring cliches regarding > Americans but if before wasting your (and our) time constructing pompous > sophomoric sentences you had first gone back over the thread, you would > have found that it was the thoroughly obnoxious Savenije, not Mr. Burack, > who lit this fire, in fine trolling fashion. Savenije interjected his > xenophobic drivel without the slightest provocation; now here you are, your > nose firmly planted between his cheeks, doing his petty little work for > him. Take a sniff, mate, and tell us all again how good it smells! > > Oliver Seeler > Director, Nova Albion Research > > [End quotation] > > Sorry to bother the list with this, but I feel that for my personal > protection I can't allow this scurrilous threat from Mr. Anscomb to go > unanswered. Thanks for your patience. > > Regards, > > Oliver > > Oliver Seeler > Director, Nova Albion Research > oseeler@mcn.org & bagpipes@mcn.org > > ~visit our sites~ > ***The Universe of Bagpipes*** > ~over 30 kinds of bagpipes~ > ~sound clips & hundreds of photos~ > ~a new CD, Bagpipes of the World~ > http://www.hotpipes.com > ~ A Yahoo! Weekly Pick ~ > > ~and~ > > *** Sir Francis Drake *** > ~ an international educational resource ~ > http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/drake.htm > ~ recommended by The History Channel ~ > > > > > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 21:16:10 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA11760 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:16:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA29940. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:15:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA29936 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:15:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from artemis.chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.6] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA22781 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:15:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from origin.chass.utoronto.ca (origin.chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by artemis.chass.utoronto.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06274 for <@artemis.chass.utoronto.ca:discovery@win.tue.nl>; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (raiswell@localhost) by origin.chass.utoronto.ca (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id PAA22160 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:12:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:12:53 -0400 From: Richard Raiswell To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences and stupid responses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The exchanges on this list have been decidedly unpleasant over the last week or so and have not been characterised by differences in scholarly opinion. Rather, they have been jingoistic and ad hominem. I would like to urge those who wish to carry on this thread to do so in private and not to trouble those of us who are genuinely interested in the history of exploration. *********************************************************************** Richard Raiswell // raiswell@chass.utoronto.ca Dept. of History, Room 2074 Sidney Smith Hall, University of Toronto, 100 St. George Street, Toronto, Ont. M5S 3G3 Centre for Reformation and Renaissance Studies, Victoria University, University of Toronto, 71 Queen's Park Crescent, Toronto, Ont. M5S 1K7 http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/crrs/ *********************************************************************** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 21:39:00 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA12118 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:39:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA29966. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:38:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA29962 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:38:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA12113 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:38:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([195.5.78.151]) by ssmtp01.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FYIZRF02.N1H for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:35:39 +0200 Message-ID: <000401bffa5c$ffd5cc40$974e05c3@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: [EXP] Crew second travel Cabot Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:33:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Do you have any idea about that it happened with the crew of the second travel of John Cabot ? (not of the ship that get back to Ireland at beginning) Thanks Jose Anaya From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 21:40:17 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA12170 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:40:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA29974. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:40:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA29970 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:40:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@[213.162.192.13] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA22797 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:40:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dmartin ([213.162.194.10]) by gema.activanet.es (8.9.3+3.2W/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id VAA00721 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:42:49 +0200 Message-ID: <009d01bffa5d$dddcc980$0ac2a2d5@dmartin> From: "DENISE MARTIN" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences and stupid responses Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:39:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ABSOLUTELY RIGHT....DM(Spain) PS I am surprised I really am.... -----Original Message----- From: Richard Raiswell To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sunday, July 30, 2000 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences and stupid responses >The exchanges on this list have been decidedly unpleasant over the last >week or so and have not been characterised by differences in scholarly >opinion. Rather, they have been jingoistic and ad hominem. > >I would like to urge those who wish to carry on this thread to do so in >private and not to trouble those of us who are genuinely interested in the >history of exploration. > >*********************************************************************** >Richard Raiswell // raiswell@chass.utoronto.ca >Dept. of History, Room 2074 Sidney Smith Hall, University of Toronto, >100 St. George Street, Toronto, Ont. M5S 3G3 > >Centre for Reformation and Renaissance Studies, >Victoria University, University of Toronto, >71 Queen's Park Crescent, Toronto, Ont. M5S 1K7 >http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/crrs/ >*********************************************************************** > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jul 30 22:35:33 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA14165 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 22:35:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA00109. Sun, 30 Jul 2000 22:35:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA00103 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 22:35:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f116.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.116] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA14158 (ESMTP). Sun, 30 Jul 2000 22:35:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 13:34:40 -0700 Received: from 63.28.161.12 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.28.161.12] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Successories: the law of unintended consequences and stupid responses Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:34:40 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2000 20:34:40.0414 (UTC) FILETIME=[95F49BE0:01BFFA65] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hear! Hear! > >The exchanges on this list have been decidedly unpleasant over the last >week or so and have not been characterised by differences in scholarly >opinion. Rather, they have been jingoistic and ad hominem. > >I would like to urge those who wish to carry on this thread to do so in >private and not to trouble those of us who are genuinely interested in the >history of exploration. > >*********************************************************************** >Richard Raiswell // raiswell@chass.utoronto.ca >Dept. of History, Room 2074 Sidney Smith Hall, University of Toronto, >100 St. George Street, Toronto, Ont. M5S 3G3 > >Centre for Reformation and Renaissance Studies, >Victoria University, University of Toronto, >71 Queen's Park Crescent, Toronto, Ont. M5S 1K7 >http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/crrs/ >*********************************************************************** > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jul 31 14:04:27 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA26171 (ESMTP). Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:04:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA01859. Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:03:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA01855 (ESMTP). Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:02:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from garm.bart.nl [194.158.170.13] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA24792 (ESMTP). Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:02:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default (node85.215.bart.nl [195.38.215.85]) by garm.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e6VC2qR40624 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:02:52 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200007311202.e6VC2qR40624@garm.bart.nl> From: "Ben Hummel" To: Subject: [EXP] WIC ship Verhildersum Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:19:50 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hey.. Does anyone have information on the Dutch West Indian Company ship 'Verhildersum', built in 1655, that probably sunk / was sunk in the Thames? Ben Hummel, Netherlands From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jul 31 15:40:35 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA00341 (ESMTP). Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:40:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA02005. Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:40:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA01998 (ESMTP). Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:40:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA25029 (ESMTP). Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:40:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25488 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:53:08 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000731224139.00ad8340@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:47:01 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] WIC ship Verhildersum In-Reply-To: <200007311202.e6VC2qR40624@garm.bart.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >Does anyone have information on the Dutch West Indian Company ship >'Verhildersum', built in 1655, that probably sunk / was sunk in the Thames? I think the walk will be to the archives in the Hague, since I couldn't find anything on the web. I have spent a lot of time there and you can find really almost anything. If there is anything known at all it will be there. If you happen to know the place where it was built or where the shipyard was, that might help as well. In that case you might have to go to the city where it was built. Won't be easy, since you have to be able to read 17th century Dutch and on top of that, be able to read the handwriting. I do have one example on my webpages, with a transcription and translation, which might help to learn at least 17th century handwriting and a number of documents and their translation, which might help to make it easy to understand 17th century Dutch, just look for the Dutch documents. Good hunting. Henny (Lee Hae Kang) ----------------------------- Feel free to discover Korea with Hendrick Hamel (1653-1666) http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl (in English) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm In Dutch http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/Dutch Frits Vos Article about Witsen and Eibokken and his first Korean-Dutch dictionary http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/FritsVos Korea through Western Cartographic eyes http://www.crosswinds.net/~hennysavenije/ (in English) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jul 31 17:21:16 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA06126 (ESMTP). Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:21:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA02398. Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:20:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA02394 (ESMTP). Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:20:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f167.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.167] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA06117 (ESMTP). Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:20:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 08:20:12 -0700 Received: from 12.13.238.141 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.141] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Crew second travel Cabot Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:20:12 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2000 15:20:12.0426 (UTC) FILETIME=[D22BDEA0:01BFFB02] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The records of the 1498 Cabot voyage are very scanty. No definite answers to your question. There were five ships, one of which, as you mentioned, stopped in an Irish port before continuing on. We do not know the names of the ships so we do not know if they occur in the records of Bristol after the voyage, meaning that the ships returned. Records from before the voyage do indicate, however, that Lancelot Thirkill (what a delightful name!) intended to be on that 1498 voyage, and records from after the voyage show him to be in England. So, if Thirkill proceeded as he intended and did sail on the 1498 voyage, then he and others returned on at least one ship. But, that's still a big "if." Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com > >Do you have any idea about that it happened >with the crew of the second travel of John Cabot ? >(not of the ship that get back to Ireland at beginning) >Thanks > >Jose Anaya > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jul 31 22:32:08 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA18187 (ESMTP). Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:32:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA02806. Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:31:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA02802 (ESMTP). Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:31:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA26173 (SMTP). Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:31:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 28529 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2000 20:31:39 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 31 Jul 2000 20:31:39 -0000 Message-ID: <3985E159.E3B2017B@easynet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:28:09 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] WIC ship Verhildersum References: <200007311202.e6VC2qR40624@garm.bart.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO An extensive search through my library has failed to reveal the name of this ship and it is possible there are no English records of it. I assume that it was sunk at some time during the Second or Third Anglo-Dutch Wars (1665-1673). There seem to be only two occasions when the Dutch actually entered the Thames. In July 1666 de Ruyter led a fleet of 107 ships into the Thames estuary, where he met Albemarle's armada of 99 ships at the Battle of Orfordness. 18 or 20 Dutch ships were sunk, none of their names (as far as I know) being recorded by the English. The only other penetration of the Thames came in June 1667 when de Ruyter and Willem van Ghent broke the English defence and sailed up the Thames as far as Chatham. Half the English fleet was destroyed, but no Dutch ship seems to have been lost. The major English source for this period is Samuel Pepys's diary, but Pepys could hardly be expected to be bothered about naming every Dutch ship lost. He does record, however, that the people of Chatham had a higher regard for their Dutch invaders (whose conduct was described as exemplary) than for their English "liberators" ! Ray From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 1 15:56:41 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA05178 (ESMTP). Tue, 1 Aug 2000 15:56:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA04720. Tue, 1 Aug 2000 15:54:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA04716 (ESMTP). Tue, 1 Aug 2000 15:54:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA28593 (ESMTP). Tue, 1 Aug 2000 15:54:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12334; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:54:27 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp194.dyn240.pacific.net.ph [210.23.240.194]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id VAA22361; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:54:02 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <001301bff7c4$97174ac0$c2f017d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Cc: "Martin Torodash" Subject: [EXP] Navarette on Mafra Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:14:43 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO It appears an apology is owed the late Dr. Donald D. Brand. I now have Martin Torodash "Magellan Historiography." In footnote 31 on page 320, Brand is credited by Torodash as saying Mafra's account "cannot be based on more than Mafra's memory of what he might have read in a Tratado begun by Andres de San Martin." In his email posting Torodash wrongly assigns the quote to Navarette (who, I believe, was long dead before Mafra's account surfaced) creating the misimpression Brand had taken the words out of Navarette's mouth without attribution. Time has sided withTorodash on his harsh sweeping verdicts meted against many Magellan articles, books and their authors. He is however dead wrong on Mafra and the Genoese Pilot, in so far as their testimony bear on a landfall question that is unknown to Magellan scholars and navigation historians. This controversy concerns the mystery isle of Mazaua where Magellan's fleet lay at anchors for one week in March-April 1521. The reason no one outside the Philippines has heard of this issue is because it has been long "resolved" by virtually all Philippine historians and historiographers. Mazaua is universally believed to be the perfect, exact and total equal of an isle called Limasawa. There is only one problem: both isles have nothing in common. It took Mafra's account to reveal that incredible fact. Mafra's description of the isle introduced elements alien to Limasawa: he said the fleet anchored west of the isle, whereas it is universally believed the port was east; he gave Mazaua's circumference as 3-4 leguas or 9-12 square nautical miles, Limasawa is 2.0313 square nautical miles; Mafra said Mazaua was 45 n.m. below what is now Surigao in Mindanao, Limasawa is above Surigao. Lastly, he said Mazaua is a good port. This last testimony compelled a study of Limasawa's shoreline, and led to the discovery that the waters off its shore are abyssal and do not afford anchorage. And it turns out east Limasawa is a lee shore. If this were a logjam, Mafra's account is the one piece of log which when removed frees everything. Those familiar with the Columbus landfall issue will appreciate how vital Mafra is if it were likened to a hypothetical eyewitness account of the Columbus voyage that unequivocably describes the landfall as, let us say, Plana Cays and suddenly all the pieces fall into place completing a consistent, unified, harmonious picture that points to Plana Cays. The Genoese Pilot, who gets an complete trouncing from Torodash, locates Mazaua's latitude where Mafra's 45 n.m. line ends. Adm. J. Freitas Ribeiro in his Estudio Nautico do Roteiro da Viagem de Fernao de Magalhais employs his log and Francisco Albo's, with support from Mafra's, in reconstructing the track of the circumnavigation. Time has showered the Genoese Pilot with its tender mercies. Mafra is indispensable to solving the Mazaua puzzle. But ironically the Philippines National Historical Institute has shown a decided preference not to resolve the issue. Incredible as it may seem, in 1998, NHI declared Mafra a fake with full knowledge no Magellan scholar or navigation historian doubts its authenticity. The NHI has no expert on Magellan or navigation history. It also declared that, and I kid you not, since Magellan had not known east Limasawa was a lee shore or that its waters were abyssal, his ignorance spared him from shipwreck. He could anchor wherever he pleased! Having thus established the "final truth", NHI forewith declared the issue closed for all time. In my paper for presentation before the Society for the History of Discoveries this October, I will explain the hidden perhaps sinister reason behind NHI's seeming madness. I will also analyze the historiographical accidents that led to an isle without anchorage becoming Magellan's safe haven. I cannot of course reveal these now. For that will deprive the SHD membership, many of whom may belong to this email list, the sense of wonder, fascination, and exhiliration of finally discovering with me the truth about a mystifying historical conundrum. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 8 17:17:17 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA21937 (ESMTP). Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:17:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA20337. Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:13:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA20333 (ESMTP). Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:13:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph (sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e78FDet02836 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:13:40 +0200 (MDT) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05124 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 23:13:27 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default ([210.23.245.161]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id XAA14591 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 23:13:26 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <000b01bffa2d$f06534a0$a1f517d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Subject: [EXP] Navigation historian or Magellan scholar who can translate Spanish to English Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:54:33 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO To all: We are in search worldwide for a suitable Magellan scholar or navigation historian who can translate Spanish into English. The material to be translated, the account of Gines de Mafra, is barely 40 pages long, 36 lines to a page. It is written in the simplest Spanish...as one mentor put it, in childlike Spanish. The main reason we want someone from outside the Philippines is that there is the possibility of subjectivity entering into the translation. Please let me know privately through my email address. Kindly send us your bona fides. Let us know your terms. If you are willing to do it for love of truth, we welcome your goodwill. If you will do it for love of something else, we more than welcome it. If you will do it for lack of anything to do, we still will appreciate your grand gesture. We don't promise anything immediate. Foremost in our minds is to be able to pinpoint the right expert. In due time, we will let the chosen one know he is it. Thank you all for your forbearance. With all best wishes, Vicente C. de Jesus Center for Excellence in Renaissance Navigation History 20 Quezon St., Tugatog, Malabon, Philippines From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Sep 20 23:07:28 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA20111 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:07:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8KKkb512909; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:46:37 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8KKkHJ10098 for discovery-list; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:46:18 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8KKkB910094 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:46:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (IDENT:root@pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8KKkA512864 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:46:10 +0200 (MDT) Received: from default.gamewood.net (bhmx0142.pubip.gamewood.net [208.30.87.57]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15527 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:46:06 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920164206.00a96d60@pop.gamewood.net> X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:49:31 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [EXP] Definition of the term "periplus" In-Reply-To: <39C91D2E.B732BC84@portolangroup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO OED confirms the notion of periplus as "sailing around" (circumnavigation,voyage, and journey). A second major meaning refers to a specific battle maneuver in Greek naval conflict. No mention of anything pertaining to a coast pilot, but there may be other definitions. Joel Kovarsky