From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Aug 6 04:34:36 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA24074 (ESMTP). Sun, 6 Aug 2000 04:34:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA14457. Sun, 6 Aug 2000 04:32:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA14453 (ESMTP). Sun, 6 Aug 2000 04:32:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [211.39.25.243] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA24049 (ESMTP). Sun, 6 Aug 2000 04:32:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00325 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 11:45:14 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000806113816.02f45bf0@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 11:39:38 +0900 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" From: Henny Savenije Subject: [EXP] Did drake discover B.C.? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Did Francis Drake discover B.C.? Evidence of voyage Stephen Hume Vancouver Sun VESUVIUS BAY, British Columbia - Sir Francis Drake explored Canada's West Coast on a secret mission for England more than 420 years ago, says groundbreaking research by a Saltspring Island geographer. Sam Bawlf, a 56-year-old writer, avid historian and former provincial cabinet minister, had to unravel a web of state intrigues, encrypted maps and official cover ups that were entangled in the lethal jockeying for power between Queen Elizabeth I of England and Phillip II of Spain. Experts describe the evidence he has assembled regarding the expedition in 1579 as solid, significant work that challenges long-held assumptions about the history of European exploration on Canada's West Coast. William Shakespeare was a teenager just graduating from Stratford Grammar School when Drake became the most celebrated adventurer of the Elizabethan age by circumnavigating the globe between 1578 and 1580. More on http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?f=/stories/20000805/362113.html Any comments?? ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Aug 6 19:44:16 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA24313 (ESMTP). Sun, 6 Aug 2000 19:44:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA14768. Sun, 6 Aug 2000 19:43:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA14764 (ESMTP). Sun, 6 Aug 2000 19:43:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f211.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.211] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA17241 (ESMTP). Sun, 6 Aug 2000 19:43:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 10:43:12 -0700 Received: from 63.28.166.165 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 06 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.28.166.165] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Did drake discover B.C.? Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 17:43:12 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2000 17:43:12.0710 (UTC) FILETIME=[CAE5CE60:01BFFFCD] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Henny, You asked for comments: In typical journalist fashion, the article tells how important, exciting, and significant the results of the Drake research is -- if it's true -- but none of the specific data to enable us to determine if it is likely to be true. Removing all the "gee-whiz" writing from the article, we end up with two facts: 1) William Shakespeare was once a teenager; and 2) Sam Bawlf has documented the results of his research. I interpret the latter to mean we must now wait some years until it published. I am suspicious of statements such as the following: "He says one important clue actually lay in the very paucity of published details about the journey. When he examined what was reported, Mr. Bawlf found those details to have been carefully contrived to conceal Drake's real whereabouts," which I interpret to mean: "There's not much information from hundreds of years ago; therefore, there was a conspiracy to suppress the information." I am, however, very pleased to see that he is using primary sources. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com > > >Did Francis Drake discover B.C.? >Evidence of voyage > >Stephen Hume >Vancouver Sun > >VESUVIUS BAY, British Columbia - Sir Francis Drake explored Canada's West >Coast on a secret mission for England more than 420 years ago, says >groundbreaking research by a Saltspring Island geographer. > >Sam Bawlf, a 56-year-old writer, avid historian and former provincial >cabinet minister, had to unravel a web of state intrigues, encrypted maps >and official cover ups that were entangled in the lethal jockeying for >power between Queen Elizabeth I of England and Phillip II of Spain. > >Experts describe the evidence he has assembled regarding the expedition in >1579 as solid, significant work that challenges long-held assumptions about >the history of European exploration on Canada's West Coast. > >William Shakespeare was a teenager just graduating from Stratford Grammar >School when Drake became the most celebrated adventurer of the Elizabethan >age by circumnavigating the globe between 1578 and 1580. > >More on >http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?f=/stories/20000805/362113.html > >Any comments?? >----------------------------- >Henny (Lee Hae Kang) > >Feel free to visit >http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl >and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) >In Korean >http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 7 00:06:05 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA04365 (ESMTP). Mon, 7 Aug 2000 00:06:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA14917. Mon, 7 Aug 2000 00:05:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA14913 (ESMTP). Mon, 7 Aug 2000 00:05:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.49] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA17744 (ESMTP). Mon, 7 Aug 2000 00:05:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.132.4]) by mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000806220505.EFYU13787.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com> for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 22:05:05 +0000 Message-ID: <398DE119.A9228FDA@portolangroup.com> Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 18:05:14 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Did drake discover B.C.? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000806113816.02f45bf0@pop3.demon.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This seems to be the text of the entire article: http://www.vancouversun.com/newsite/opinion/000805/4538007.html Thought everyone might enjoy seeing the complete article. Phil Stover From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 7 00:16:45 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA04776 (ESMTP). Mon, 7 Aug 2000 00:16:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA15084. Mon, 7 Aug 2000 00:16:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA15080 (ESMTP). Mon, 7 Aug 2000 00:16:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA04763 (ESMTP). Mon, 7 Aug 2000 00:16:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from Win95 (ha-1o-men-p3-m08.mcn.org [63.193.12.116]) by mail.mcn.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id e76MGMt22114 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 15:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000806151535.009a0100@mail.mcn.org> X-Sender: oseeler@mail.mcn.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 15:15:35 -0700 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Oliver Seeler Subject: Re: [EXP] Did drake discover B.C.? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000806113816.02f45bf0@pop3.demon.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Well, all I've seen is the paper's website news piece so it's not Mr. Bawlf but some reporter I'm reading. In general I'm all for speculation and alternate theories, so long as they don't involve claims that contradict known facts and/or logic; the entire point of my now decade-long work is that none of us, including the Drake Navigators Guild (DNG) etc., know exactly what Drake did or where he was. A few comments on the online newspaper article: "Prior to his passage across the Pacific, Drake is known to have voyaged up the west coast of North America but it is widely accepted by historians that he got little farther north than California before turning for home in the fall of 1579." This is untrue - it was only the "Oregon Question" dust-up & Davidson that caused emphasis on the low latitudes reported in Hakluyt. Every other account (Anon. Narrative, Madox Diary, John Drake's two depositions & The World Encompassed) mentions land and/or landing, at the high latitude of 48 degrees. Many, many historians have no problem with the northerly figure. "Mr. Bawlf became curious about several months of Drake's time that appeared to be unaccounted for. Where he went, Mr. Bawlf says, was in search of a western entrance to the strategically important Northwest Passage." What "several months of ...unaccounted for" time is this? I know of no such thing. I'd like to see the convolutions leading to this. "He analyzed handwriting to determine the most likely authors of previous unidentified documents and employed spectral photography to detect hidden changes to manuscripts. "Whenever possible, I went back to primary documents," Mr. Bawlf says. "A lot of the material had no provenance. People didn't know who had made the maps. I had to determine all that."" These are major, major claims with nothing supporting them in the article. "Part of Mr. Bawlf's research involved finding the key that enabled him to decipher early Elizabethan maps that had been drawn up as cryptograms to prevent their strategically valuable contents from falling into the hands of spies sent by King Philip II of Spain, England's chief rival for maritime power." This is the kind of thing that sets off big booming alarm cannons with me. There have been a number of overheated Drake aficionados over the years who claim to have discovered "secret" codes in Drake material. One works backwards, deciding (conciously or wishfully) what one wants the map/document to "really" say, and then "discovers" some convoluted "code" that yields the desired result. So for example the word "up" really means "down" because of some way or another that the various letters relate to other words (or thickness of paper, spacing of engraving lines (really!) etc.) in the document. "He also examined Spanish intelligence reports intercepted by Elizabeth's spy-master, Sir Francis Walsingham, the testimony of English captives questioned by the dreaded Spanish Inquisition, and the work of early mapmakers in Holland and France." Well, good for him - that's the same thing the rest of us and our investigative predecessors have been doing for over a century. "Next, he looked at archaeological evidence from Oregon and Washington and finally began comparing the great landmarks noted on the old maps with the actual topography of the coast." What? There is no Drake-related "archaeological evidence from Oregon and Washington." There are enthusiasts who have claimed to have found this or that, but nothing that can be considered "evidence." ""What you wind up with is an incredible secret enterprise that was covered up so effectively for 15 years [after Drake's voyage] that when the principals died [Walsingham in 1590, Drake in 1596, Philip in 1598 and Elizabeth in 1603], it was forgotten for 400 years," Mr. Bawlf says." And here's one of the biggest problems - the idea that all of this exploration could have been kept secret - or "forgotten" - during the ensuing years of intense English expansion and activity. It is perhaps reasonable to speculate that the English, especially before the defeat of the Spanish Armada, would have been unable to take advantage of the Northwest Passage themselves and would not have wanted information leading to it to fall into Spanish hands. However, Drake was not alone on the Golden Hind - there were perhaps eighty others along, including seasoned sailors and "gentlemen" (a few of them intensely hostile towards Drake). As the existence of the Madox Diary and of the Anonymous Narrative demonstrate, not all of them kept their mouths shut. Most dramatically, Drake's young nephew John Drake was captured not long after the circumnavigation and interrogated by the Spanish, and his still-existing depositions (unearthed by Zelia Nuttall and published in 1914) are most interesting. John Drake was a demonstrably inaccurate witness, and was apparently telling the Spanish what he thought they wanted to hear. However, while he places the landing latitude to the north, he describes the natives of the south. Was he covering up a great northern discovery, risking his life by lying to his captors (with whom, it seems, he spent the rest of his life)? Or did he reveal Mr. Bawlf's monumental "truth" only to have the Spanish shrug it off? (The Spanish were indeed curious about what Drake had found, and later did a little sniffing around (expensively, at the cost of the San Agustin), but never far to the north.) In any event, he mentions the high latitude but assigns no geographical significance to it. Also, the capture by the Spanish of John Drake in 1584, in South America, during the Fenton expedition, itself raises some serious problems for any theories of a "vast conspiracy." Are we to believe that the same incredibly efficient apparatus that supposedly enforced complete silence by 80 or so participants, that deflected all efforts by the highly effective Spanish intelligence operatives and that drew up maps only now revealed as "cryptograms" would allow John Drake, along with a few other circumnavigators, to place themselves at high risk of being taken by the Spanish, just because a group of merchants wanted someone with Pacific experience along with landlubber Fenton? John Drake's journey with Fenton was approved from the highest levels. (Maybe it can be included in the conspiracy ... Fenton wasn't sent off by a group of merchants at all, you see, but was planning on retracing Drake's route. While we're at it we also need to work the Cavendish circumnavigation into this ... after all, there he was, only a couple of thousand miles south of this NWP, but it's alleged that he turned west ... maybe he didn't - someone should look for several months of unaccounted for time there too.) "Scholars in the United States have long insisted Drake never got farther north than the coast of Oregon and that he landed to careen his ship near Point Reyes, just north of San Francisco Bay." I've already addressed the first part of this. As for the second, well, no, scholars (as a group) have not insisted on any such thing. To the contrary, there has been long-ongoing and continuing violent scholarly (and not-so-scholarly) controversy about the location of the primary landing site, and in spite of intense self-promoting publicity campaigns, largely by the DNG, no individual or group has yet prevailed. But some things are fairly certain. I have no idea, yet, if Mr. Bawlf is claiming that Drake landed in his back yard rather than, or in addition to, a more southerly place. If the claim is for the former, then Mr. Bawlf runs headlong into the same seemingly insurmountable problem that all other proponents of northerly sites face: The extensive descriptions, in the source material, of the Pacific Coast native people met by Drake fit only Northern California, and only a bit of it at that, and these descriptions could not have come from any other source than Drake. So any more northerly landing by Drake had to have been in addition to a southerly one. A "two landing sites" theory was first tangentially suggested in 1925 by Alfred Kroeber (whose remarks on Drake are invariably presented out-of-context in support of "Drakes Bay" as The Spot), and the first such developed theory was published soon thereafter by Henry Wagner. So, if Mr. Bawlf is correct, or partially correct, in placing Drake in (today's) Canada it does not follow that he was there instead of in Northern California. It is entirely possible that Drake poked around a bit a little further north than otherwise indicated - there would be no great surprise in this, as the surviving contemporary accounts are all incomplete or sketchy in one way or another. It is also possible that he found nothing of particular interest there - a good reason for the lack of mention of the area - and soon coasted southward just as described in the primary chronicles. It might also be remembered that the English in general didn't just think that the enormously important Northwest Passage existed, they *knew* it did, and didn't give up on the concept until into the 19th century. Had Drake brought back information about its whereabouts the English hardly would have forgotten about it for centuries - they would have eagerly exploited the possibility at the first opportunity - but no one from England ventured into those waters for a long, long time. To argue that secrecy was so intense that the whole thing was lost is convenient but unrealistic, in my view, unless, of course, Mr. Bawlf can produce a "smoking gun" - and of large caliber, please. Obviously, after over a decade of focus on this subject, I'm most interested in learning more about Mr. Bawlf's efforts. The above is merely a quick reaction. By the way, Mr. Bawlf is not the only one to attempt to place Drake in those waters; for several years I've been in regular correspondence with a member of another Canadian group with similar ideas. Oliver Seeler Director, Nova Albion Research oseeler@mcn.org & bagpipes@mcn.org ~visit our sites~ ***The Universe of Bagpipes*** ~over 30 kinds of bagpipes~ ~sound clips & hundreds of photos~ ~a new CD, Bagpipes of the World~ http://www.hotpipes.com ~ A Yahoo! Weekly Pick ~ ~and~ *** Sir Francis Drake *** ~ an international educational resource ~ http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/drake.htm ~ recommended by The History Channel ~ At 11:39 8/6/00 +0900, you wrote: > > >Did Francis Drake discover B.C.? >Evidence of voyage > >Stephen Hume >Vancouver Sun > >VESUVIUS BAY, British Columbia - Sir Francis Drake explored Canada's West >Coast on a secret mission for England more than 420 years ago, says >groundbreaking research by a Saltspring Island geographer. > >Sam Bawlf, a 56-year-old writer, avid historian and former provincial >cabinet minister, had to unravel a web of state intrigues, encrypted maps >and official cover ups that were entangled in the lethal jockeying for >power between Queen Elizabeth I of England and Phillip II of Spain. > >Experts describe the evidence he has assembled regarding the expedition in >1579 as solid, significant work that challenges long-held assumptions about >the history of European exploration on Canada's West Coast. > >William Shakespeare was a teenager just graduating from Stratford Grammar >School when Drake became the most celebrated adventurer of the Elizabethan >age by circumnavigating the globe between 1578 and 1580. > >More on >http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?f=/stories/20000805/362113.html > >Any comments?? >----------------------------- >Henny (Lee Hae Kang) > >Feel free to visit >http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl >and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) >In Korean >http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 7 02:06:08 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA12933 (ESMTP). Mon, 7 Aug 2000 02:06:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA15124. Mon, 7 Aug 2000 02:05:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA15120 (ESMTP). Mon, 7 Aug 2000 02:05:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo-r14.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA12917 (ESMTP). Mon, 7 Aug 2000 02:05:49 +0200 (MET DST) From: WJWarren@aol.com Received: from WJWarren@aol.com by imo-r14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.12.) id l.a1.8f8069a (4390) for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 20:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 20:05:10 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] Did drake discover B.C.? To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 119 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Thanks to Phil Stover for posting the connection to the Vancouver Sun article. According to the article favorable comments on the 300 page work were made by several well known and unquestionably knowledgeable persons: Richard I. Ruggles of Queen's University Frances Herbert of the Royal Geographic Society Marcel van den Broecke, well know map scholar At least two of these, I believe, are participants on this listserv. Since they apparently may have read the full text, I suggest we invite their comments. Bill Warren From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 10 21:28:09 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA07920 (ESMTP). Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:28:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA07841. Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:25:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA07837 (ESMTP). Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:25:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7AJPjt08903 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:25:45 +0200 (MDT) Received: from 209-122-212-232.s613.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([209.122.212.232] helo=sanderva) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 3.15 #2) id 13MxxX-0004aB-00 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:25:44 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.20000810152425.006c8ac0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: sanderva/pop.erols.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) -- [Cornell Modified] Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:24:25 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Jeanne & Tom Sander Subject: [EXP] SHD Meeting October 2000 - Abstracts, Final Program, Deadlines In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000726210529.00699d9c@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The Society for the History of Discoveries (SHD) will hold its annual meeting in Washington D.C., USA, from October 12-15, 2000. Full information about the meeting, program, and accompanying events may be found at: http://www.sochistdisc.org/annual-meeting.htm The final program has been set and may be viewed at: http://www.sochistdisc.org/washington_program.htm The abstracts of the speakers presenting papers at SHD 2000 have been posted to the SHD web site, and may be read at: http://www.sochistdisc.org/abstracts.htm HOTEL BOOKING DEADLINES: Those attending are reminded that hotel accommodations are YOUR OWN RESPONSIBILITY. Arrangements for hold on blocks of rooms have been made at two hotels. In two weeks, on August 25, the hold on rooms at the nearby conference hotel, the Capitol Hill Suites, will expire. Space and agreed rates cannot be guaranteed after that date. On September 11, the room hold at the more-distant Holiday Inn Capitol will expire. Attendees are urged to make their reservations NOW, so as not to be disappointed. It is easier to cancel a hotel reservation later, than to secure one then. SHD 2000 REGISTRATION DEADLINE: September 5 is the final date to register under the reduced fee that is offered. The higher fee will apply to anyone whose registration is in an envelope dated September 6 or later, or who registers at the annual meeting. Advance reservations are encouraged, and will insure also the opportunity to register for special events with space limitations. Further information about the Society for the History of Discoveries is available at the Society's home page: http://www.sochistdisc.org ***************************** Thomas Sander Activities Chairman SHD 2000 P.O. Box 10793 Burke, VA 22009-0793 USA SHD2000 e-mail address: shd2000dc@hotmail.com excuse cross posting From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Aug 13 20:16:59 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA23946 (ESMTP). Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:16:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id UAA23555. Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:15:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA23551 (ESMTP). Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:15:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ssmtp02.melange.isp (smtp.arrakis.es [212.59.199.83]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7DIFOt27257 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:15:25 +0200 (MDT) Received: from hola ([195.5.76.113]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FZ8T8902.91Y for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:12:09 +0200 Message-ID: <000601c00551$a7147700$714c05c3@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: [EXP] Celts in iceland Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:09:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr I have read in Pliny (Plinius) the Old (in their "Natural History"): -To one day of sailing of Thule it is the frozen sea called by some people "Cronio"( Cronius?). In a book of "history fiction" of Jean Deruelle (the Revolution of the Atlantes...) he says that, according to G. Broche: -"the Antique men called to the cap of ice of the north "mare Cronio" ...and "muir Croinn" means in Celtic "frozen sea"... Do you know if this word, "Croinn", is or not "frozen" in Celtic languages? or... it is a pure "historical fantasy"?... (Jean Deruelle ixplain that the pilots of Pytheas was celts...) Jose anaya anay@arrakis.es From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 14 10:16:46 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA29565 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 10:16:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA26906. Mon, 14 Aug 2000 10:16:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA26902 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 10:16:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e7E8GDp06645 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 10:16:13 +0200 (MDT) Received: (qmail 56095 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2000 08:16:07 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 14 Aug 2000 08:16:07 -0000 Message-ID: <3997AA06.F72923E2@easynet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 09:12:54 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts in iceland References: <000601c00551$a7147700$714c05c3@hola.arrakis.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Estimado José La palabra "Croinn" es difícil traducir; tiene muchos significados diferentes. Básicamente, significa una "piel" que podría ser el hielo que forma en el agua, o la piel, o la cáscara de una manzana o naranja. Pero podría ser algo que cubierta, o abraza otra cosa. Puede traducirse como "redondo" o "completo". El "Muir Croinn" podría ser el mar que abraza la Tierra. Croinn está igual que el palabra "croen" galés, o "crwn" (también galés) que están igual que la "crown" inglesa o "la corona" española. Usted puede ver que es muy difícil ! Saludos Ray From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 14 17:32:15 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA22021 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:32:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA00093. Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:31:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA00089 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:31:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hotmail.com (f107.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.107]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7EFVhp06311 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:31:43 +0200 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:31:36 -0700 Received: from 12.13.238.139 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.139] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts in iceland Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:31:36 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Aug 2000 15:31:36.0901 (UTC) FILETIME=[BBEEF750:01C00604] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Cronus was one of the Greek Titans. I think he's the one that ate his children. He is the god of Time. He supposedly sleeps somewhere in the far west (or was it north?). His name was associated by the ancient Greeks and those that are their cultural heirs (i.e., Western Civilization) with a land to the west. >From: "j. anaya" >Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl >To: >Subject: [EXP] Celts in iceland >Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:09:40 +0200 > >I have read in Pliny (Plinius) the Old (in their "Natural History"): > -To one day of sailing of Thule it is the > frozen sea called by some people "Cronio"( Cronius?). >In a book of "history fiction" of Jean Deruelle > (the Revolution of the Atlantes...) he says that, > according to G. Broche: > > -"the Antique men called to the cap of ice of the north "mare Cronio" >...and "muir Croinn" means in Celtic "frozen sea"... > Do you know if this word, "Croinn", is or not "frozen" > in Celtic languages? or... it is a pure "historical fantasy"?... > >(Jean Deruelle ixplain that the pilots of Pytheas was celts...) > >Jose anaya anay@arrakis.es > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 14 17:32:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA22044 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:32:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA00115. Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:32:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA00111 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:32:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id RAA03045. Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:32:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200008141532.RAA03045@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts in iceland In-Reply-To: <000601c00551$a7147700$714c05c3@hola.arrakis.es> from "j. anaya" at "Aug 13, 2000 8: 9:40 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:32:39 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O j. anaya wrote: > I have read in Pliny (Plinius) the Old (in their "Natural History"): > -To one day of sailing of Thule it is the > frozen sea called by some people "Cronio"( Cronius?). > In a book of "history fiction" of Jean Deruelle > (the Revolution of the Atlantes...) he says that, > according to G. Broche: > > -"the Antique men called to the cap of ice of the north "mare Cronio" > ...and "muir Croinn" means in Celtic "frozen sea"... > Do you know if this word, "Croinn", is or not "frozen" > in Celtic languages? or... it is a pure "historical fantasy"?... > > (Jean Deruelle ixplain that the pilots of Pytheas was celts...) What is your point? And why do you call your message 'Celts in Iceland' when it's about Thule which is far from certain to have been Iceland (at least in the ancient period)? -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 14 17:41:15 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA22334 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:41:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA00223. Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:41:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA00214 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:41:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hotmail.com (f84.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.84]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7EFeft24285 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:40:41 +0200 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:40:34 -0700 Received: from 12.13.238.139 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.139] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts in iceland Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:40:34 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Aug 2000 15:40:34.0925 (UTC) FILETIME=[FC9EE9D0:01C00605] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO By the way, the Celts in Ireland probably knew of the Greek myths the same as most everyone else between the Shannon and the Indus. Also, it may be true that Celts were the pilots of Pytheas. Or it may have been Basques, or fellow Greeks, or -- who knows? Celts is a guess. By the time he got to northern Britain or Iceland or Norway or wherever he went, he probably wasn't even the leader of the voyage or commander of the ship. He may have been hitching a ride on one or more trading vessels. But, who knows? The only data we have are the third-hand (and off-hand) remarks made by later writers who thought him a liar or fool or both. Nothing in that data about Celts being pilots. Greg McIntosh > >I have read in Pliny (Plinius) the Old (in their "Natural History"): > -To one day of sailing of Thule it is the > frozen sea called by some people "Cronio"( Cronius?). >In a book of "history fiction" of Jean Deruelle > (the Revolution of the Atlantes...) he says that, > according to G. Broche: > > -"the Antique men called to the cap of ice of the north "mare Cronio" >...and "muir Croinn" means in Celtic "frozen sea"... > Do you know if this word, "Croinn", is or not "frozen" > in Celtic languages? or... it is a pure "historical fantasy"?... > >(Jean Deruelle ixplain that the pilots of Pytheas was celts...) > >Jose anaya anay@arrakis.es > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 14 20:46:16 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA29512 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:46:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id UAA01290. Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:45:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA01286 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:45:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mercurio.feedback.net.ar (mercurio.feedback.net.ar [200.16.157.8]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7EIjdt02240 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:45:39 +0200 (MDT) Received: from [200.41.172.57] (pm055.feedback.net.ar [200.41.172.57]) by mercurio.feedback.net.ar (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e7EIqS529812 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:52:29 -0300 Message-Id: <200008141852.e7EIqS529812@mercurio.feedback.net.ar> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:43:43 -0300 Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts in iceland From: "Fabian Martin" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Cronus was the father of Zeus. Best regards, Fabian Martin ---------- >From: "Gregory McIntosh" >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts in iceland >Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000, 12:31 PM > > > Cronus was one of the Greek Titans. I think he's the one that ate his > children. He is the god of Time. He supposedly sleeps somewhere in the far > west (or was it north?). His name was associated by the ancient Greeks and > those that are their cultural heirs (i.e., Western Civilization) with a land > to the west. > >>From: "j. anaya" >>Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl >>To: >>Subject: [EXP] Celts in iceland >>Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:09:40 +0200 >> >>I have read in Pliny (Plinius) the Old (in their "Natural History"): >> -To one day of sailing of Thule it is the >> frozen sea called by some people "Cronio"( Cronius?). >>In a book of "history fiction" of Jean Deruelle >> (the Revolution of the Atlantes...) he says that, >> according to G. Broche: >> >> -"the Antique men called to the cap of ice of the north "mare Cronio" >>...and "muir Croinn" means in Celtic "frozen sea"... >> Do you know if this word, "Croinn", is or not "frozen" >> in Celtic languages? or... it is a pure "historical fantasy"?... >> >>(Jean Deruelle ixplain that the pilots of Pytheas was celts...) >> >>Jose anaya anay@arrakis.es >> > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 14 22:39:15 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA03995 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:39:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA01925. Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:37:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA01921 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:37:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (IDENT:root@pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7EKbIp17241 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:37:18 +0200 (MDT) Received: from default.gamewood.net (bhmx0102.pubip.gamewood.net [208.30.87.17]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08637 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:37:11 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000814163350.00a98260@pop.gamewood.net> X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:40:52 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts in iceland In-Reply-To: <200008141852.e7EIqr529909@mercurio.feedback.net.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The Greeks had divergent cosmogonic myths. Cronus (Kronos) was one of the 12 titans (6 boys; 6 girsl). He was the youngest and direct rival of Zeus (I don't think he qualified as his father) in the battle for the kingdom of the sky. If you want to try to sort all this (if it is even possible), take a look a the WONDERFUL "Mythologies", a 2 volume set, published 1991 by the U. of Chicago Press, and edited by Yves Bonnefoy (translated by Wendy Doniger). Joel Kovarsky At 03:44 PM 8/14/00 -0300, you wrote: >Cronus was the father of Zeus, I think. >Best regards, > >Fabian Martin > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 14 22:58:03 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA04391 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:58:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA02010. Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:57:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA02006 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:57:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ssmtp02.melange.isp (smtp.arrakis.es [212.59.199.83]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7EKvdp17822 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:57:39 +0200 (MDT) Received: from hola ([212.59.206.220]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FZAVEI04.72S for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:54:18 +0200 Message-ID: <000601c00631$78662c60$dcce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Celts in iceland Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:51:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO It is interesting the name that gives Pliny to the Arthic Ocean : ..."Cronio"...it has a sound very similar a " sea crown" in celtic language... The "sea crown"...the sea of the uper place... It can be a Celtic word: coroín (old irish: crown) cruinn (irish) = round, = cruind (old irish) (latin = curvus, indo european..), crún (irish=crown) then " muir croinn" = "mare cronio" = "sea crown" .. It is possible a datum gives by celts to old greecs or similar mariners...(perhaps !... not sure !) Jose Anaya xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Mensaje original----- De: Ray Howgego Para: discovery@win.tue.nl Fecha: lunes, 14 de agosto de 2000 10:28 Asunto: Re: [EXP] Celts in iceland Estimado José La palabra "Croinn" es difícil traducir; tiene muchos significados diferentes. Básicamente, significa una "piel" que podría ser el hielo que forma en el agua, o la piel, o la cáscara de una manzana o naranja. Pero podría ser algo que cubierta, o abraza otra cosa. Puede traducirse como "redondo" o "completo". El "Muir Croinn" podría ser el mar que abraza la Tierra. Croinn está igual que el palabra "croen" galés, o "crwn" (también galés) que están igual que la "crown" inglesa o "la corona" española. Usted puede ver que es muy difícil ! Saludos Ray From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 14 23:03:03 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA05465 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:03:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA02061. Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:02:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA02057 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:02:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ssmtp02.melange.isp (smtp.arrakis.es [212.59.199.83]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7EL2op18428 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:02:50 +0200 (MDT) Received: from hola ([212.59.206.220]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FZAVNA08.A37 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:59:34 +0200 Message-ID: <000b01c00632$34847000$dcce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Celts in iceland Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:57:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Now, I believe that " mare Cronio" of Pliny the Old, perhaps it is a name originated not because the "tintans" or the father of Zeus, but because "muir cruind" = "sea crown" (a celtic name for the north ice cap ?) Jose Anaya -----Mensaje original----- De: Joel Kovarsky Para: discovery@win.tue.nl Fecha: lunes, 14 de agosto de 2000 22:52 Asunto: Re: [EXP] Celts in iceland |The Greeks had divergent cosmogonic myths. Cronus (Kronos) was one of the |12 titans (6 boys; 6 girsl). He was the youngest and direct rival of Zeus |(I don't think he qualified as his father) in the battle for the kingdom of |the sky. If you want to try to sort all this (if it is even possible), take |a look a the WONDERFUL "Mythologies", a 2 volume set, published 1991 by the |U. of Chicago Press, and edited by Yves Bonnefoy (translated by Wendy |Doniger). | | Joel Kovarsky | |At 03:44 PM 8/14/00 -0300, you wrote: |>Cronus was the father of Zeus, I think. |>Best regards, |> |>Fabian Martin |> | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 14 23:25:32 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA05936 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:25:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA02201. Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:25:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA02197 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:25:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ssmtp01.melange.isp (smtp.arrakis.es [212.59.199.83]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7ELPAt08742 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:25:10 +0200 (MDT) Received: from hola ([212.59.206.220]) by ssmtp01.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FZAWOI03.N36 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:21:54 +0200 Message-ID: <000401c00635$5339bca0$dcce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Celts in iceland Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:19:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr another thing: Today I have read something interesting: it is the narration of a Spanish navigator that saw the coast of Greenland toward 1600, and he comments ": we saw the coast of TIERRA VERDE..." "it is of common belief that TIERRA VERDE (= greenland) is populated of real midgets" (..autenticos enanos). Jose Anaya From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 14 23:49:14 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA06438 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:49:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA02341. Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:49:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA02337 (ESMTP). Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:48:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hotmail.com (f136.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.136]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7ELmrt09634 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:48:54 +0200 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:48:47 -0700 Received: from 12.13.238.137 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.137] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: RE: [EXP] Celts in iceland Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 21:48:47 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Aug 2000 21:48:47.0626 (UTC) FILETIME=[6CE58EA0:01C00639] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Not "midgets" -- Pygmies. Commonly held belief since the time of the Greeks was that monstrous races lived at the edges of the inhabited world. This and many other ancient geographical myths persisted for centuries and only started to disappear during the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment. Pygmies (also giants, dog-faced men, etc.) are commonly held beliefs of all cultures descended from the post-Alexandrine Hellenic civilization, such as, Christian Europe and Islamic Asia. This was part of the common stock of both science and folklore. The association of pygmies in Greenland goes back to the Norse there in the 10th through 15th centuries. The first cartographic expression of this is on the so-called Nancy and Vienna maps of Claudius Clavus (Nicolaus Niger) of the early 15th century. The association of pygmies with Greenland (and Lappland and other far northern place, real and imaginary) was repeatedly made in maps and books, such as, those of Olaus Magnus in the 16th century. Very probably reinforced by the Eskimoes, Inuit, Native Americans, Lapps, and other peoples who did not look like white Europeans. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com > >another thing: > >Today I have read something interesting: it is the narration > of a Spanish navigator that saw the coast of Greenland > toward 1600, and he comments ": we saw the coast of TIERRA VERDE..." >"it is of common belief that TIERRA VERDE (= greenland) is > populated of real midgets" (..autenticos enanos). > >Jose Anaya > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 15 01:26:44 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA14879 (ESMTP). Tue, 15 Aug 2000 01:26:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA03031. Tue, 15 Aug 2000 01:26:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA03027 (ESMTP). Tue, 15 Aug 2000 01:26:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.dreamcity.co.kr ([211.39.25.243]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7ENQBp22279 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 01:26:11 +0200 (MDT) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA12898 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:38:42 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000815081732.02150750@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:33:44 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts in iceland In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000814163350.00a98260@pop.gamewood.net> References: <200008141852.e7EIqr529909@mercurio.feedback.net.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 05:40 AM 8/15/00, you wrote: >The Greeks had divergent cosmogonic myths. Cronus (Kronos) was one of the >12 titans (6 boys; 6 girsl). He was the youngest and direct rival of Zeus >(I don't think he qualified as his father) in the battle for the kingdom >of the sky. If you want to try to sort all this (if it is even possible), >take a look a the WONDERFUL "Mythologies", a 2 volume set, published 1991 >by the U. of Chicago Press, and edited by Yves Bonnefoy (translated by >Wendy Doniger). Or take a look at "Kronos, Ahriman, and Set - A Symbolic Interpretation of Highlander "Archangel." By Kris Larsen (an online book) http://honors.ccsu.ctstateu.edu/Honors/ContactProgram/Faculty/Kris.html or at: Overthrow of Kronos and the Titans http://www.brandeis.edu/departments/classics/class170/myth2a7.htm (a brief overview) or at: Zeus References Zeus in The Iliad (listed by book and line) http://www.messagenet.com/myths/bios/zeusiliad.html or at: CREATION ACCORDING TO THE GREEKS http://bama.ua.edu/~ksummers/cl222/LECT2/create2.htm or at: Rhea presenting Zeus to Kronos http://mkatz.web.wesleyan.edu/cciv110x/hesiod/cciv110.RheaKronos.html (picture) or look for the rest of the search: http://www.google.com/search?q=Kronos+Zeus&hl=en&lr=lang_da|lang_nl|lang_en|lang_fi|lang_fr|lang_de|lang_it|lang_ko|lang_no|lang_pt|en&safe=off&start=10&sa=N Cheers ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 15 12:30:31 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA10118 (ESMTP). Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:30:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id MAA06393. Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:29:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA06389 (ESMTP). Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:29:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id MAA04800. Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:29:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200008151029.MAA04800@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Celts in iceland In-Reply-To: <000401c00635$5339bca0$dcce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> from "j. anaya" at "Aug 14, 2000 11:19:25 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:29:19 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO j. anaya wrote: > Today I have read something interesting: it is the narration > of a Spanish navigator that saw the coast of Greenland > toward 1600, and he comments ": we saw the coast of TIERRA VERDE..." > "it is of common belief that TIERRA VERDE (= greenland) is > populated of real midgets" (..autenticos enanos). Such information is probably coming from Scandinavian sources. These sources, for example Olaeus Magnus, described the (Eskimo) inhabitants of Greenland as midgets. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 15 21:43:59 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA04210 (ESMTP). Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:43:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA09926. Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:42:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA09922 (ESMTP). Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:42:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e7FJgTJ11378 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:42:29 +0200 (MDT) Received: (qmail 51591 invoked from network); 15 Aug 2000 19:42:28 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 15 Aug 2000 19:42:28 -0000 Message-ID: <39999C5C.39200E15@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:39:08 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re: Swedish translation References: <000601c00551$a7147700$714c05c3@hola.arrakis.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Would any member of the discussion group be able and willing to translate for me a short passage of Swedish ? I find this language extremely difficult, and although I can guess at the longer words, the shorter ones elude me. The article, extracted from the Svensk Biografisk Leksikon, concerns the naturalist and traveller Johan Peter Falck and is about 250 words long. I would be very grateful as this article seems to be the only source of information on this traveller. Ray From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 17 04:20:57 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA26853 (ESMTP). Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:20:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA20173. Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:20:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA20169 (ESMTP). Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:20:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ssmtp02.melange.isp (smtp.arrakis.es [212.59.199.83]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7H2K3J18512 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:20:03 +0200 (MDT) Received: from hola ([212.59.205.96]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FZEZNS06.X7J for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:16:40 +0200 Message-ID: <000601c007f0$d6101ea0$60cd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: [EXP] Quiros Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:14:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Possibly Quiros (Portuguese navigator of Spain in the Pacific ) had a problem maniac depresive disease(perhaps, not sure): episodes of not very logical hiperactivity before the expedition, followed by periods in that he was in bed several days, without being sick, in the middle of the expedition... ( the depresive phase of this psiquiatric problem...) Before the third discovery travel to the Pacific of Quiros begined, Quirós got a written document in Madrid, from the secretary of colonies: "when the appropriate conditions are given, an expediccion will be made in search of the Southern Land ( or something similar)", and Quiros went to Southamerica. Secretly, the same secretary sent to Peru the order of "the appropriate conditions never will given." It seems to be that in that time, the government of Spain did not want more discoveries, to avoid dispersion. Quiros never did the last travel across the Pacific. Jose Anaya From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 17 11:29:45 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA12808 (ESMTP). Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:29:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id LAA22545. Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:29:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA22541 (ESMTP). Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:29:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id LAA11112. Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:29:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200008170929.LAA11112@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Quiros In-Reply-To: <000601c007f0$d6101ea0$60cd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> from "j. anaya" at "Aug 17, 2000 4:14:11 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:29:07 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O j. anaya wrote: > Before the third discovery travel to the Pacific of Quiros begined, > Quirós got a > written document in Madrid, from the secretary of colonies: > "when the appropriate conditions are given, an expediccion will be > made in search of the Southern Land ( or something similar)", and Quiros > went to Southamerica. Secretly, the same secretary sent to Peru the order > of > "the appropriate conditions never will given." It seems to be that in that > time, > the government of Spain did not want more discoveries, to avoid > dispersion. > Quiros never did the last travel across the Pacific. I can imagine other reasons for this behaviour than not wanting any new discoveries. Perhaps this was something personal against Quiros (either because of his behaviour on his second expedition, or because of his nagging for a new one afterward). Also, note that it is quite confusing when you talk about the 'three discovery travels of Quiros', given that the third never took place and the first is generally known as the second of Mendana instead. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 17 13:19:29 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA18259 (ESMTP). Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:19:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA23248. Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:19:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA23244 (ESMTP). Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:19:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e7HBJDJ09277 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:19:13 +0200 (MDT) Received: (qmail 15615 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2000 11:19:12 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 17 Aug 2000 11:19:12 -0000 Message-ID: <399BC977.7617E94D@easynet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:16:07 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Quiros References: <000601c007f0$d6101ea0$60cd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The incidence of disease among our most famous explorers would make an excellent subject for a doctoral thesis. Most of them were suffering from some illness or other, probably the long term effects of undiagnosed tropical diseases, such as malaria, which persist well into later life. It would be interesting to know which diseases in particular gave rise to the violent mood swings, persecution complexes and megalomania exhibited by so many explorers in tropical regions. Lope de Aguirre is a prime example. Even George Vancouver's undiagnosed myxoedema almost led his crewmen to mutiny. Quiros exhibited similar symptoms, culminating in the Quixotic burlesque of his "Knights of the Holy Ghost" on Espiritu Santo. By the time Quiros was despatched from Spain in 1614 he had petitioned the court no less than seventy times for a return voyage to South Sea. No wonder they were glad to be rid of him. Ray From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 17 19:06:26 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA04675 (ESMTP). Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:06:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA25779. Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:05:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA25775 (ESMTP). Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:05:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ssmtp04.melange.isp ([212.59.217.68]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7HH5dV28225 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:05:40 +0200 (MDT) Received: from hola ([212.59.207.42]) by ssmtp04.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FZG4NY01.W0V for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:02:22 +0200 Message-ID: <000801c0086c$9109c280$2acf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Quiros Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:59:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO |Also, note that it is quite confusing when you talk about the 'three |discovery travels of Quiros', given that the third never took place and |the first is generally known as the second of Mendana instead. |Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl the "not done" last travel of Quiros. I believe that Quiros was a pilot of the galleon of Manila he did a travel with Mendaña and the wife of Mendaña (in a colonization intent to Salomón Island. In this travel they discovered Marquesas Island, but they did not see Salomon. This travel was really for to expel of Peru to spanish adventurous and prostitutes...to go to a very rich island in the Pacific...the island of king Salomo.) he did another travel as leader, with Torres. He requested to make a third travel that never did, this is the travel non done that I say. Quirós went to America with the promise of to lead a new travel across the Pacific, but there was a secret order of "never the adecuate moment" Jose Anaya From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Aug 18 19:38:55 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA06080 (ESMTP). Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:38:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA03440. Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:37:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA03436 (ESMTP). Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:37:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f179.hotmail.com [216.32.181.179]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7IHbRJ21923 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:37:27 +0200 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:37:26 -0700 Received: from 209.42.85.50 by lw2fd.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.42.85.50] From: "Esther Gall" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation historian or Magellan scholar who can translate Spanish to English Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:37:25 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2000 17:37:26.0205 (UTC) FILETIME=[F95256D0:01C0093A] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Please take my name off your list. Thanks. >From: "vicente c. de jesus" >Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl >To: >Subject: [EXP] Navigation historian or Magellan scholar who can translate >Spanish to English >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:54:33 +0800 > >To all: > >We are in search worldwide for a suitable Magellan scholar or navigation >historian who can translate Spanish into English. The material to be >translated, the account of Gines de Mafra, is barely 40 pages long, 36 >lines >to a page. It is written in the simplest Spanish...as one mentor put it, in >childlike Spanish. > >The main reason we want someone from outside the Philippines is that there >is the possibility of subjectivity entering into the translation. > >Please let me know privately through my email address. Kindly send us your >bona fides. Let us know your terms. If you are willing to do it for love of >truth, we welcome your goodwill. If you will do it for love of something >else, we more than welcome it. If you will do it for lack of anything to >do, >we still will appreciate your grand gesture. > >We don't promise anything immediate. Foremost in our minds is to be able to >pinpoint the right expert. In due time, we will let the chosen one know he >is it. Thank you all for your forbearance. > >With all best wishes, > >Vicente C. de Jesus >Center for Excellence in Renaissance Navigation History >20 Quezon St., Tugatog, Malabon, Philippines > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Aug 18 20:31:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA08332 (ESMTP). Fri, 18 Aug 2000 20:31:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id UAA03787. Fri, 18 Aug 2000 20:31:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA03780 (ESMTP). Fri, 18 Aug 2000 20:31:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f77.hotmail.com [216.32.181.77]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7IIVVJ23368 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 20:31:31 +0200 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:31:29 -0700 Received: from 209.42.85.50 by lw2fd.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.42.85.50] From: "Esther Gall" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation historian or Magellan scholar who can translate Spanish to English Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:31:29 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2000 18:31:29.0945 (UTC) FILETIME=[86BDC890:01C00942] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Please take my name from the email list. Thanks >From: "vicente c. de jesus" >Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl >To: >Subject: [EXP] Navigation historian or Magellan scholar who can translate >Spanish to English >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:54:33 +0800 > >To all: > >We are in search worldwide for a suitable Magellan scholar or navigation >historian who can translate Spanish into English. The material to be >translated, the account of Gines de Mafra, is barely 40 pages long, 36 >lines >to a page. It is written in the simplest Spanish...as one mentor put it, in >childlike Spanish. > >The main reason we want someone from outside the Philippines is that there >is the possibility of subjectivity entering into the translation. > >Please let me know privately through my email address. Kindly send us your >bona fides. Let us know your terms. If you are willing to do it for love of >truth, we welcome your goodwill. If you will do it for love of something >else, we more than welcome it. If you will do it for lack of anything to >do, >we still will appreciate your grand gesture. > >We don't promise anything immediate. Foremost in our minds is to be able to >pinpoint the right expert. In due time, we will let the chosen one know he >is it. Thank you all for your forbearance. > >With all best wishes, > >Vicente C. de Jesus >Center for Excellence in Renaissance Navigation History >20 Quezon St., Tugatog, Malabon, Philippines > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Aug 19 17:43:29 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA21716 (ESMTP). Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA07409. Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA07402 (ESMTP). Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7JFh1J18091 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:02 +0200 (MDT) Received: from achallap ([203.197.204.223]) by giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id VAA05892; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:15:36 +0500 (GMT+0500) Message-ID: <00e201c009f4$41a24e40$dfccc5cb@achallap> From: "Vedams Books Internatioanal" To: Subject: [EXP] New books on Historical Travel Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:13:42 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C00A22.5A604BC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C00A22.5A604BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Dear Colleagues: We have added detailed descriptions of some books on Travel to our = online catalogue. Appended below please see a list of books which are = hyperlinked to our website. If you follow the links, you will get = detailed descriptions of these books on travel We have an extensive annotated catalogue of books on Historical travel = at http://www.vedamsbooks.com/his-travel.htm Books can be ordered online or by sending an email to = vedams@vedamsbooks.com We look forward to the pleasure of hearing from you Sincerely achal madhavan ------------------------------------------- Achal Madhavan Vedams Books International 12A/11 W.E.Area, Post Box 2674 New Delhi 110 005 India Phone: 91-11-5724053; 91-11-5772410 Fax: 91-11-5745114 http://www.vedamsbooks.com Beyond the Himalayas : In Search of the Ancient Silk Route/H.P.S. = Ahluwalia. Bombay, Kamlesh Shah, 2000, 101 p., col. photographs, ISBN = 81-86850-03-1. Details No. 17681 Ceylon : The Land of Eternal Charm/Ali Foad Toulba. Reprint. First = Published: London, 1926. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, = 352 p., photographs, ISBN 81-206-1494-1. Details No. 17309 =20 Great Travellers and Explorers : Pioneers in Australasia/Harry Johnston. = Reprint. First published in London, 1912. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services, 2000, 308 p., maps, plates, ISBN 81-206-1506-X. Details No. = 17603 =20 Himalayan Journals/J.D. Hooker. Reprint. First published in 1854. Dehra = Dun, Natraj, 1999, 2 vols., xxxv, 894 p., ISBN 81-85019-82-7. Details = No. 17701 =20 History of the Portuguese in Bengal/J.J.A. Campos. Reprint. First = published in 1919. Calcutta, R.N. Bhattacharya, 2000, xxvi, 310 p., = Maps, ISBN 81-87661-70-0. Details No. 17671 =20 In the Footsteps of Marco Polo-Being the Account of a Journey Overland = from Simla to Pekin/Clarence Dalrymple Bruce. Reprint. First published = in London, 1907. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 379 p., = plates, ISBN 81-206-1358-9. Details No. 17605 Journal of a Residence in India/Maria Graham. Reprint. First published = London in 1812. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 211 p., = plates, ISBN 81-206-1442-9.DetailsNo. 15576 =20 Lands of the Thunderbolt Sikhim, Chumbi & Bhutan/Earl of Ronaldshay. = Reprint. First published in London, 1923. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services, 2000, 267 p., plates, ISBN 81-206-1504-2. Details No. 17602 =20 Ootacamund : A History/Frederick Price. Reprint. First published in = 1908. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 281 p., plates, ISBN = 81-206-1513-1. Details No. 17607 =20 Oriental and Western Siberia : A Narrative of Seven Years Explorations = and Adventures in Siberia, Mongolia, The Kirghis Steppes, Chinese = Tartary, and Part of Central Asia/Thomas Witlam Atkinson. Reprint. First = published in 1859. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 483 p., = plates, ISBN 81-206-1468-2. Details No. 17597 The Pilgrimage of Fa Hian/Foe Koue Ki. Reprint. Delhi, Cosmo, 2000, 401 = p., ISBN 81-7020-967-6. Details No. 17717 =20 To Lhasa in Disguise : A Secret Expedition Through Mysterious = Tibet/William Montgomery McGovern. Reprint. First published in 1924. = Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 462 p., ISBN 81-206-1456-9. = Details No.17606=20 Western Himalaya and Tibet : A Narrative of a Journey through the = Mountains of Northern India During the Years 1847-48/Thomas Thomson. = Reprint. First published in 1852 by Reeve and Co. London. Delhi, = Munshiram Manoharlal, 2000, 501 p., map, ISBN 81-215-0974-2. Details = No.17581=20 Ancient India as Described by Megasthenes and Arrian : Being a = translation of the fragments of the Indika of Megasthenes collected by = Dr. Schwanbeck and of the first part of the Indika of Arrian/John W. = McCrindle. Reprint. Delhi, Munshiram Manoharlal, 2000, 227 p., map, ISBN = 81-215-0948-3.Details No. 15605 Ancient India as Described by Ptolemy/John W. McCrindle. Reprint. First = published in 1927. Delhi, Munshiram, 2000, xxxix, 431 p., maps, ISBN = 81-215-0945-9. Details No. 15532 ------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C00A22.5A604BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Dear=20 Colleagues:

We have added = detailed=20 descriptions of some books on Travel to our online catalogue. Appended = below=20 please see a list of books which are hyperlinked to our website. If you = follow=20 the links, you will get detailed descriptions of these books on=20 travel

We have an = extensive=20 annotated catalogue of books on Historical travel at http://www.vedamsbooks= .com/his-travel.htm

Books can be = ordered=20 online or by sending an email to vedams@vedamsbooks.com

We look = forward to the=20 pleasure of hearing from you

Sincerely

achal=20 madhavan
-------------------------------------------
Achal = Madhavan
Vedams=20 Books International
12A/11 W.E.Area, Post Box 2674
New Delhi 110=20 005
India
Phone: 91-11-5724053; 91-11-5772410
Fax: = 91-11-5745114
http://www.vedamsbooks.com=

Beyond the = Himalayas : In=20 Search of the Ancient Silk Route/H.P.S. Ahluwalia. Bombay, Kamlesh Shah, 2000, 101 p., col. = photographs,  ISBN=20 81-86850-03-1. Details No.=20 17681

Ceylon :=20 The Land of Eternal Charm/Ali Foad Toulba. Reprint. First = Published:=20 London, 1926. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 352 p., = photographs,=20 ISBN 81-206-1494-1. Details No. 17309  =  

Great=20 Travellers and Explorers : Pioneers in Australasia/Harry=20 Johnston.=20 Reprint. First published in London, 1912. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services,=20 2000, 308 p., maps, plates, ISBN 81-206-1506-X.=20 Details No. 17603  =  =20

Himalayan=20 Journals/J.D. Hooker. Reprint. First = published in=20 1854. Dehra Dun, Natraj, 1999, 2 vols., xxxv, 894 p., ISBN = 81-85019-82-7. Details No. 17701  =  

History=20 of the Portuguese in Bengal/J.J.A. Campos. Reprint. First = published in=20 1919. Calcutta, R.N. Bhattacharya, 2000, xxvi, 310 p., Maps, ISBN=20 81-87661-70-0. Details No. 17671  =  

In the Footsteps of Marco = Polo-Being the=20 Account of a Journey Overland from Simla to Pekin/Clarence Dalrymple=20 Bruce.=20 Reprint. First published in London, 1907. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services,=20 2000, 379 p., plates,  ISBN 81-206-1358-9.  Details No. = 17605

Journal=20 of a Residence in India/Maria Graham. Reprint. First = published=20 London in 1812. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 211 p.,=20 plates,  ISBN 81-206-1442-9.DetailsNo. = 15576 =20  

Lands of=20 the Thunderbolt Sikhim, Chumbi & Bhutan/Earl of = Ronaldshay. Reprint. First published in = London, 1923.=20 Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 267 p., plates,  ISBN=20 81-206-1504-2. Details No. 17602 =20

Ootacamund : A History/Frederick=20 Price.=20 Reprint. First published in 1908. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, = 2000, 281=20 p., plates,  ISBN 81-206-1513-1. Details No. 17607  =  

Oriental and Western Siberia : A = Narrative of=20 Seven Years Explorations and Adventures in Siberia, Mongolia, The = Kirghis=20 Steppes, Chinese Tartary, and Part of Central Asia/Thomas Witlam=20 Atkinson. Reprint. = First=20 published in 1859. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 483 p.,=20 plates,  ISBN 81-206-1468-2. Details No. 17597

The Pilgrimage of Fa Hian/Foe Koue=20 Ki.=20 Reprint. Delhi, Cosmo, 2000, 401 p., ISBN 81-7020-967-6.    Details No. 17717  =  

To Lhasa in Disguise : A Secret = Expedition=20 Through Mysterious Tibet/William Montgomery McGovern. Reprint. First = published in=20 1924. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 462 p., ISBN = 81-206-1456-9. Details = No.17606=20

Western Himalaya and Tibet : A = Narrative of a=20 Journey through the Mountains of Northern India During the Years = 1847-48/Thomas=20 Thomson.=20 Reprint. First published in 1852 by Reeve and Co. London. Delhi, = Munshiram=20 Manoharlal, 2000, 501 p., map, ISBN 81-215-0974-2. Details = No.17581=20

Ancient India as Described by = Megasthenes and=20 Arrian : Being a translation of the fragments of the Indika of = Megasthenes=20 collected by Dr. Schwanbeck and of the first part of the Indika of = Arrian/John=20 W. McCrindle. Reprint. Delhi, = Munshiram=20 Manoharlal, 2000, 227 p., map, ISBN 81-215-0948-3.Details No.=20 15605

Ancient India as Described by = Ptolemy/John W.=20 McCrindle.=20 Reprint. First published in 1927. Delhi, Munshiram, 2000, xxxix, 431 p., = maps,=20 ISBN 81-215-0945-9. Details No.=20 15532=

------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C00A22.5A604BC0-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Aug 19 17:43:32 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA21721 (ESMTP). Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA07406. Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA07395 (ESMTP). Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7JFgvV01774 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:42:57 +0200 (MDT) Received: from achallap ([203.197.204.223]) by giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id VAA00035; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:15:31 +0500 (GMT+0500) Message-ID: <00de01c009f4$3eca7620$dfccc5cb@achallap> From: "Vedams Books Internatioanal" To: Subject: [EXP] New books on Historical Travel Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:13:38 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00DB_01C00A22.5797B5E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01C00A22.5797B5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Dear Colleagues: We have added detailed descriptions of some books on Travel to our = online catalogue. Appended below please see a list of books which are = hyperlinked to our website. If you follow the links, you will get = detailed descriptions of these books on travel We have an extensive annotated catalogue of books on Historical travel = at http://www.vedamsbooks.com/his-travel.htm Books can be ordered online or by sending an email to = vedams@vedamsbooks.com We look forward to the pleasure of hearing from you Sincerely achal madhavan ------------------------------------------- Achal Madhavan Vedams Books International 12A/11 W.E.Area, Post Box 2674 New Delhi 110 005 India Phone: 91-11-5724053; 91-11-5772410 Fax: 91-11-5745114 http://www.vedamsbooks.com Beyond the Himalayas : In Search of the Ancient Silk Route/H.P.S. = Ahluwalia. Bombay, Kamlesh Shah, 2000, 101 p., col. photographs, ISBN = 81-86850-03-1. Details No. 17681 Ceylon : The Land of Eternal Charm/Ali Foad Toulba. Reprint. First = Published: London, 1926. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, = 352 p., photographs, ISBN 81-206-1494-1. Details No. 17309 =20 Great Travellers and Explorers : Pioneers in Australasia/Harry Johnston. = Reprint. First published in London, 1912. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services, 2000, 308 p., maps, plates, ISBN 81-206-1506-X. Details No. = 17603 =20 Himalayan Journals/J.D. Hooker. Reprint. First published in 1854. Dehra = Dun, Natraj, 1999, 2 vols., xxxv, 894 p., ISBN 81-85019-82-7. Details = No. 17701 =20 History of the Portuguese in Bengal/J.J.A. Campos. Reprint. First = published in 1919. Calcutta, R.N. Bhattacharya, 2000, xxvi, 310 p., = Maps, ISBN 81-87661-70-0. Details No. 17671 =20 In the Footsteps of Marco Polo-Being the Account of a Journey Overland = from Simla to Pekin/Clarence Dalrymple Bruce. Reprint. First published = in London, 1907. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 379 p., = plates, ISBN 81-206-1358-9. Details No. 17605 Journal of a Residence in India/Maria Graham. Reprint. First published = London in 1812. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 211 p., = plates, ISBN 81-206-1442-9.DetailsNo. 15576 =20 Lands of the Thunderbolt Sikhim, Chumbi & Bhutan/Earl of Ronaldshay. = Reprint. First published in London, 1923. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services, 2000, 267 p., plates, ISBN 81-206-1504-2. Details No. 17602 =20 Ootacamund : A History/Frederick Price. Reprint. First published in = 1908. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 281 p., plates, ISBN = 81-206-1513-1. Details No. 17607 =20 Oriental and Western Siberia : A Narrative of Seven Years Explorations = and Adventures in Siberia, Mongolia, The Kirghis Steppes, Chinese = Tartary, and Part of Central Asia/Thomas Witlam Atkinson. Reprint. First = published in 1859. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 483 p., = plates, ISBN 81-206-1468-2. Details No. 17597 The Pilgrimage of Fa Hian/Foe Koue Ki. Reprint. Delhi, Cosmo, 2000, 401 = p., ISBN 81-7020-967-6. Details No. 17717 =20 To Lhasa in Disguise : A Secret Expedition Through Mysterious = Tibet/William Montgomery McGovern. Reprint. First published in 1924. = Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 462 p., ISBN 81-206-1456-9. = Details No.17606=20 Western Himalaya and Tibet : A Narrative of a Journey through the = Mountains of Northern India During the Years 1847-48/Thomas Thomson. = Reprint. First published in 1852 by Reeve and Co. London. Delhi, = Munshiram Manoharlal, 2000, 501 p., map, ISBN 81-215-0974-2. Details = No.17581=20 Ancient India as Described by Megasthenes and Arrian : Being a = translation of the fragments of the Indika of Megasthenes collected by = Dr. Schwanbeck and of the first part of the Indika of Arrian/John W. = McCrindle. Reprint. Delhi, Munshiram Manoharlal, 2000, 227 p., map, ISBN = 81-215-0948-3.Details No. 15605 Ancient India as Described by Ptolemy/John W. McCrindle. Reprint. First = published in 1927. Delhi, Munshiram, 2000, xxxix, 431 p., maps, ISBN = 81-215-0945-9. Details No. 15532 ------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01C00A22.5797B5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Dear=20 Colleagues:

We have added = detailed=20 descriptions of some books on Travel to our online catalogue. Appended = below=20 please see a list of books which are hyperlinked to our website. If you = follow=20 the links, you will get detailed descriptions of these books on=20 travel

We have an = extensive=20 annotated catalogue of books on Historical travel at http://www.vedamsbooks= .com/his-travel.htm

Books can be = ordered=20 online or by sending an email to vedams@vedamsbooks.com

We look = forward to the=20 pleasure of hearing from you

Sincerely

achal=20 madhavan
-------------------------------------------
Achal = Madhavan
Vedams=20 Books International
12A/11 W.E.Area, Post Box 2674
New Delhi 110=20 005
India
Phone: 91-11-5724053; 91-11-5772410
Fax: = 91-11-5745114
http://www.vedamsbooks.com=

Beyond the = Himalayas : In=20 Search of the Ancient Silk Route/H.P.S. Ahluwalia. Bombay, Kamlesh Shah, 2000, 101 p., col. = photographs,  ISBN=20 81-86850-03-1. Details No.=20 17681

Ceylon :=20 The Land of Eternal Charm/Ali Foad Toulba. Reprint. First = Published:=20 London, 1926. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 352 p., = photographs,=20 ISBN 81-206-1494-1. Details No. 17309  =  

Great=20 Travellers and Explorers : Pioneers in Australasia/Harry=20 Johnston.=20 Reprint. First published in London, 1912. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services,=20 2000, 308 p., maps, plates, ISBN 81-206-1506-X.=20 Details No. 17603  =  =20

Himalayan=20 Journals/J.D. Hooker. Reprint. First = published in=20 1854. Dehra Dun, Natraj, 1999, 2 vols., xxxv, 894 p., ISBN = 81-85019-82-7. Details No. 17701  =  

History=20 of the Portuguese in Bengal/J.J.A. Campos. Reprint. First = published in=20 1919. Calcutta, R.N. Bhattacharya, 2000, xxvi, 310 p., Maps, ISBN=20 81-87661-70-0. Details No. 17671  =  

In the Footsteps of Marco = Polo-Being the=20 Account of a Journey Overland from Simla to Pekin/Clarence Dalrymple=20 Bruce.=20 Reprint. First published in London, 1907. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services,=20 2000, 379 p., plates,  ISBN 81-206-1358-9.  Details No. = 17605

Journal=20 of a Residence in India/Maria Graham. Reprint. First = published=20 London in 1812. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 211 p.,=20 plates,  ISBN 81-206-1442-9.DetailsNo. = 15576 =20  

Lands of=20 the Thunderbolt Sikhim, Chumbi & Bhutan/Earl of = Ronaldshay. Reprint. First published in = London, 1923.=20 Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 267 p., plates,  ISBN=20 81-206-1504-2. Details No. 17602 =20

Ootacamund : A History/Frederick=20 Price.=20 Reprint. First published in 1908. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, = 2000, 281=20 p., plates,  ISBN 81-206-1513-1. Details No. 17607  =  

Oriental and Western Siberia : A = Narrative of=20 Seven Years Explorations and Adventures in Siberia, Mongolia, The = Kirghis=20 Steppes, Chinese Tartary, and Part of Central Asia/Thomas Witlam=20 Atkinson. Reprint. = First=20 published in 1859. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 483 p.,=20 plates,  ISBN 81-206-1468-2. Details No. 17597

The Pilgrimage of Fa Hian/Foe Koue=20 Ki.=20 Reprint. Delhi, Cosmo, 2000, 401 p., ISBN 81-7020-967-6.    Details No. 17717  =  

To Lhasa in Disguise : A Secret = Expedition=20 Through Mysterious Tibet/William Montgomery McGovern. Reprint. First = published in=20 1924. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 462 p., ISBN = 81-206-1456-9. Details = No.17606=20

Western Himalaya and Tibet : A = Narrative of a=20 Journey through the Mountains of Northern India During the Years = 1847-48/Thomas=20 Thomson.=20 Reprint. First published in 1852 by Reeve and Co. London. Delhi, = Munshiram=20 Manoharlal, 2000, 501 p., map, ISBN 81-215-0974-2. Details = No.17581=20

Ancient India as Described by = Megasthenes and=20 Arrian : Being a translation of the fragments of the Indika of = Megasthenes=20 collected by Dr. Schwanbeck and of the first part of the Indika of = Arrian/John=20 W. McCrindle. Reprint. Delhi, = Munshiram=20 Manoharlal, 2000, 227 p., map, ISBN 81-215-0948-3.Details No.=20 15605

Ancient India as Described by = Ptolemy/John W.=20 McCrindle.=20 Reprint. First published in 1927. Delhi, Munshiram, 2000, xxxix, 431 p., = maps,=20 ISBN 81-215-0945-9. Details No.=20 15532=

------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01C00A22.5797B5E0-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Aug 19 17:43:37 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA21727 (ESMTP). Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA07393. Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA07389 (ESMTP). Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:42:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7JFgnJ18086 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:42:50 +0200 (MDT) Received: from achallap ([203.197.204.223]) by giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id VAA30060; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:15:21 +0500 (GMT+0500) Message-ID: <00da01c009f4$3917b8a0$dfccc5cb@achallap> From: "Vedams Books Internatioanal" To: Subject: [EXP] New books on Historical Travel Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:13:07 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C00A22.45421B60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C00A22.45421B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Colleagues: We have added detailed descriptions of some books on Travel to our = online catalogue. Appended below please see a list of books which are = hyperlinked to our website. If you follow the links, you will get = detailed descriptions of these books on travel We have an extensive annotated catalogue of books on Historical travel = at http://www.vedamsbooks.com/his-travel.htm Books can be ordered online or by sending an email to = vedams@vedamsbooks.com We look forward to the pleasure of hearing from you Sincerely achal madhavan ------------------------------------------- Achal Madhavan Vedams Books International 12A/11 W.E.Area, Post Box 2674 New Delhi 110 005 India Phone: 91-11-5724053; 91-11-5772410 Fax: 91-11-5745114 http://www.vedamsbooks.com Beyond the Himalayas : In Search of the Ancient Silk Route/H.P.S. = Ahluwalia. Bombay, Kamlesh Shah, 2000, 101 p., col. photographs, ISBN = 81-86850-03-1. Details No. 17681 Ceylon : The Land of Eternal Charm/Ali Foad Toulba. Reprint. First = Published: London, 1926. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, = 352 p., photographs, ISBN 81-206-1494-1. Details No. 17309 =20 Great Travellers and Explorers : Pioneers in Australasia/Harry Johnston. = Reprint. First published in London, 1912. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services, 2000, 308 p., maps, plates, ISBN 81-206-1506-X. Details No. = 17603 =20 Himalayan Journals/J.D. Hooker. Reprint. First published in 1854. Dehra = Dun, Natraj, 1999, 2 vols., xxxv, 894 p., ISBN 81-85019-82-7. Details = No. 17701 =20 History of the Portuguese in Bengal/J.J.A. Campos. Reprint. First = published in 1919. Calcutta, R.N. Bhattacharya, 2000, xxvi, 310 p., = Maps, ISBN 81-87661-70-0. Details No. 17671 =20 In the Footsteps of Marco Polo-Being the Account of a Journey Overland = from Simla to Pekin/Clarence Dalrymple Bruce. Reprint. First published = in London, 1907. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 379 p., = plates, ISBN 81-206-1358-9. Details No. 17605 Journal of a Residence in India/Maria Graham. Reprint. First published = London in 1812. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 211 p., = plates, ISBN 81-206-1442-9.DetailsNo. 15576 =20 Lands of the Thunderbolt Sikhim, Chumbi & Bhutan/Earl of Ronaldshay. = Reprint. First published in London, 1923. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services, 2000, 267 p., plates, ISBN 81-206-1504-2. Details No. 17602 =20 Ootacamund : A History/Frederick Price. Reprint. First published in = 1908. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 281 p., plates, ISBN = 81-206-1513-1. Details No. 17607 =20 Oriental and Western Siberia : A Narrative of Seven Years Explorations = and Adventures in Siberia, Mongolia, The Kirghis Steppes, Chinese = Tartary, and Part of Central Asia/Thomas Witlam Atkinson. Reprint. First = published in 1859. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 483 p., = plates, ISBN 81-206-1468-2. Details No. 17597 The Pilgrimage of Fa Hian/Foe Koue Ki. Reprint. Delhi, Cosmo, 2000, 401 = p., ISBN 81-7020-967-6. Details No. 17717 =20 To Lhasa in Disguise : A Secret Expedition Through Mysterious = Tibet/William Montgomery McGovern. Reprint. First published in 1924. = Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 462 p., ISBN 81-206-1456-9. = Details No.17606=20 Western Himalaya and Tibet : A Narrative of a Journey through the = Mountains of Northern India During the Years 1847-48/Thomas Thomson. = Reprint. First published in 1852 by Reeve and Co. London. Delhi, = Munshiram Manoharlal, 2000, 501 p., map, ISBN 81-215-0974-2. Details = No.17581=20 Ancient India as Described by Megasthenes and Arrian : Being a = translation of the fragments of the Indika of Megasthenes collected by = Dr. Schwanbeck and of the first part of the Indika of Arrian/John W. = McCrindle. Reprint. Delhi, Munshiram Manoharlal, 2000, 227 p., map, ISBN = 81-215-0948-3.Details No. 15605 Ancient India as Described by Ptolemy/John W. McCrindle. Reprint. First = published in 1927. Delhi, Munshiram, 2000, xxxix, 431 p., maps, ISBN = 81-215-0945-9. Details No. 15532 ------=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C00A22.45421B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Dear=20 Colleagues:

We have added = detailed=20 descriptions of some books on Travel to our online catalogue. Appended = below=20 please see a list of books which are hyperlinked to our website. If you = follow=20 the links, you will get detailed descriptions of these books on=20 travel

We have an = extensive=20 annotated catalogue of books on Historical travel at http://www.vedamsbooks= .com/his-travel.htm

Books can be = ordered=20 online or by sending an email to vedams@vedamsbooks.com

We look = forward to the=20 pleasure of hearing from you

Sincerely

achal=20 madhavan
-------------------------------------------
Achal = Madhavan
Vedams=20 Books International
12A/11 W.E.Area, Post Box 2674
New Delhi 110=20 005
India
Phone: 91-11-5724053; 91-11-5772410
Fax: = 91-11-5745114
http://www.vedamsbooks.com=

Beyond the = Himalayas : In=20 Search of the Ancient Silk Route/H.P.S. Ahluwalia. Bombay, Kamlesh Shah, 2000, 101 p., col. = photographs,  ISBN=20 81-86850-03-1. Details No.=20 17681

Ceylon :=20 The Land of Eternal Charm/Ali Foad Toulba. Reprint. First = Published:=20 London, 1926. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 352 p., = photographs,=20 ISBN 81-206-1494-1. Details No. 17309  =  

Great=20 Travellers and Explorers : Pioneers in Australasia/Harry=20 Johnston.=20 Reprint. First published in London, 1912. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services,=20 2000, 308 p., maps, plates, ISBN 81-206-1506-X.=20 Details No. 17603  =  =20

Himalayan=20 Journals/J.D. Hooker. Reprint. First = published in=20 1854. Dehra Dun, Natraj, 1999, 2 vols., xxxv, 894 p., ISBN = 81-85019-82-7. Details No. 17701  =  

History=20 of the Portuguese in Bengal/J.J.A. Campos. Reprint. First = published in=20 1919. Calcutta, R.N. Bhattacharya, 2000, xxvi, 310 p., Maps, ISBN=20 81-87661-70-0. Details No. 17671  =  

In the Footsteps of Marco = Polo-Being the=20 Account of a Journey Overland from Simla to Pekin/Clarence Dalrymple=20 Bruce.=20 Reprint. First published in London, 1907. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services,=20 2000, 379 p., plates,  ISBN 81-206-1358-9.  Details No. = 17605

Journal=20 of a Residence in India/Maria Graham. Reprint. First = published=20 London in 1812. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 211 p.,=20 plates,  ISBN 81-206-1442-9.DetailsNo. = 15576 =20  

Lands of=20 the Thunderbolt Sikhim, Chumbi & Bhutan/Earl of = Ronaldshay. Reprint. First published in = London, 1923.=20 Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 267 p., plates,  ISBN=20 81-206-1504-2. Details No. 17602 =20

Ootacamund : A History/Frederick=20 Price.=20 Reprint. First published in 1908. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, = 2000, 281=20 p., plates,  ISBN 81-206-1513-1. Details No. 17607  =  

Oriental and Western Siberia : A = Narrative of=20 Seven Years Explorations and Adventures in Siberia, Mongolia, The = Kirghis=20 Steppes, Chinese Tartary, and Part of Central Asia/Thomas Witlam=20 Atkinson. Reprint. = First=20 published in 1859. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 483 p.,=20 plates,  ISBN 81-206-1468-2. Details No. 17597

The Pilgrimage of Fa Hian/Foe Koue=20 Ki.=20 Reprint. Delhi, Cosmo, 2000, 401 p., ISBN 81-7020-967-6.    Details No. 17717  =  

To Lhasa in Disguise : A Secret = Expedition=20 Through Mysterious Tibet/William Montgomery McGovern. Reprint. First = published in=20 1924. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 462 p., ISBN = 81-206-1456-9. Details = No.17606=20

Western Himalaya and Tibet : A = Narrative of a=20 Journey through the Mountains of Northern India During the Years = 1847-48/Thomas=20 Thomson.=20 Reprint. First published in 1852 by Reeve and Co. London. Delhi, = Munshiram=20 Manoharlal, 2000, 501 p., map, ISBN 81-215-0974-2. Details = No.17581=20

Ancient India as Described by = Megasthenes and=20 Arrian : Being a translation of the fragments of the Indika of = Megasthenes=20 collected by Dr. Schwanbeck and of the first part of the Indika of = Arrian/John=20 W. McCrindle. Reprint. Delhi, = Munshiram=20 Manoharlal, 2000, 227 p., map, ISBN 81-215-0948-3.Details No.=20 15605

Ancient India as Described by = Ptolemy/John W.=20 McCrindle.=20 Reprint. First published in 1927. Delhi, Munshiram, 2000, xxxix, 431 p., = maps,=20 ISBN 81-215-0945-9. Details No.=20 15532=

------=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C00A22.45421B60-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Aug 19 17:43:43 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA21733 (ESMTP). Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA07417. Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA07413 (ESMTP). Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (giasdl01.vsnl.net.in [202.54.15.1]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7JFh9J18097 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:43:10 +0200 (MDT) Received: from achallap ([203.197.204.223]) by giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id VAA21022; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:15:44 +0500 (GMT+0500) Message-ID: <00e601c009f4$4694c900$dfccc5cb@achallap> From: "Vedams Books Internatioanal" To: Subject: [EXP] New books on Historical Travel Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:13:50 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C00A22.5F407700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C00A22.5F407700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Dear Colleagues: We have added detailed descriptions of some books on Travel to our = online catalogue. Appended below please see a list of books which are = hyperlinked to our website. If you follow the links, you will get = detailed descriptions of these books on travel We have an extensive annotated catalogue of books on Historical travel = at http://www.vedamsbooks.com/his-travel.htm Books can be ordered online or by sending an email to = vedams@vedamsbooks.com We look forward to the pleasure of hearing from you Sincerely achal madhavan ------------------------------------------- Achal Madhavan Vedams Books International 12A/11 W.E.Area, Post Box 2674 New Delhi 110 005 India Phone: 91-11-5724053; 91-11-5772410 Fax: 91-11-5745114 http://www.vedamsbooks.com Beyond the Himalayas : In Search of the Ancient Silk Route/H.P.S. = Ahluwalia. Bombay, Kamlesh Shah, 2000, 101 p., col. photographs, ISBN = 81-86850-03-1. Details No. 17681 Ceylon : The Land of Eternal Charm/Ali Foad Toulba. Reprint. First = Published: London, 1926. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, = 352 p., photographs, ISBN 81-206-1494-1. Details No. 17309 =20 Great Travellers and Explorers : Pioneers in Australasia/Harry Johnston. = Reprint. First published in London, 1912. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services, 2000, 308 p., maps, plates, ISBN 81-206-1506-X. Details No. = 17603 =20 Himalayan Journals/J.D. Hooker. Reprint. First published in 1854. Dehra = Dun, Natraj, 1999, 2 vols., xxxv, 894 p., ISBN 81-85019-82-7. Details = No. 17701 =20 History of the Portuguese in Bengal/J.J.A. Campos. Reprint. First = published in 1919. Calcutta, R.N. Bhattacharya, 2000, xxvi, 310 p., = Maps, ISBN 81-87661-70-0. Details No. 17671 =20 In the Footsteps of Marco Polo-Being the Account of a Journey Overland = from Simla to Pekin/Clarence Dalrymple Bruce. Reprint. First published = in London, 1907. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 379 p., = plates, ISBN 81-206-1358-9. Details No. 17605 Journal of a Residence in India/Maria Graham. Reprint. First published = London in 1812. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 211 p., = plates, ISBN 81-206-1442-9.DetailsNo. 15576 =20 Lands of the Thunderbolt Sikhim, Chumbi & Bhutan/Earl of Ronaldshay. = Reprint. First published in London, 1923. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services, 2000, 267 p., plates, ISBN 81-206-1504-2. Details No. 17602 =20 Ootacamund : A History/Frederick Price. Reprint. First published in = 1908. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 281 p., plates, ISBN = 81-206-1513-1. Details No. 17607 =20 Oriental and Western Siberia : A Narrative of Seven Years Explorations = and Adventures in Siberia, Mongolia, The Kirghis Steppes, Chinese = Tartary, and Part of Central Asia/Thomas Witlam Atkinson. Reprint. First = published in 1859. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 483 p., = plates, ISBN 81-206-1468-2. Details No. 17597 The Pilgrimage of Fa Hian/Foe Koue Ki. Reprint. Delhi, Cosmo, 2000, 401 = p., ISBN 81-7020-967-6. Details No. 17717 =20 To Lhasa in Disguise : A Secret Expedition Through Mysterious = Tibet/William Montgomery McGovern. Reprint. First published in 1924. = Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 462 p., ISBN 81-206-1456-9. = Details No.17606=20 Western Himalaya and Tibet : A Narrative of a Journey through the = Mountains of Northern India During the Years 1847-48/Thomas Thomson. = Reprint. First published in 1852 by Reeve and Co. London. Delhi, = Munshiram Manoharlal, 2000, 501 p., map, ISBN 81-215-0974-2. Details = No.17581=20 Ancient India as Described by Megasthenes and Arrian : Being a = translation of the fragments of the Indika of Megasthenes collected by = Dr. Schwanbeck and of the first part of the Indika of Arrian/John W. = McCrindle. Reprint. Delhi, Munshiram Manoharlal, 2000, 227 p., map, ISBN = 81-215-0948-3.Details No. 15605 Ancient India as Described by Ptolemy/John W. McCrindle. Reprint. First = published in 1927. Delhi, Munshiram, 2000, xxxix, 431 p., maps, ISBN = 81-215-0945-9. Details No. 15532 ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C00A22.5F407700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Dear=20 Colleagues:

We have added = detailed=20 descriptions of some books on Travel to our online catalogue. Appended = below=20 please see a list of books which are hyperlinked to our website. If you = follow=20 the links, you will get detailed descriptions of these books on=20 travel

We have an = extensive=20 annotated catalogue of books on Historical travel at http://www.vedamsbooks= .com/his-travel.htm

Books can be = ordered=20 online or by sending an email to vedams@vedamsbooks.com

We look = forward to the=20 pleasure of hearing from you

Sincerely

achal=20 madhavan
-------------------------------------------
Achal = Madhavan
Vedams=20 Books International
12A/11 W.E.Area, Post Box 2674
New Delhi 110=20 005
India
Phone: 91-11-5724053; 91-11-5772410
Fax: = 91-11-5745114
http://www.vedamsbooks.com=

Beyond the = Himalayas : In=20 Search of the Ancient Silk Route/H.P.S. Ahluwalia. Bombay, Kamlesh Shah, 2000, 101 p., col. = photographs,  ISBN=20 81-86850-03-1. Details No.=20 17681

Ceylon :=20 The Land of Eternal Charm/Ali Foad Toulba. Reprint. First = Published:=20 London, 1926. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 352 p., = photographs,=20 ISBN 81-206-1494-1. Details No. 17309  =  

Great=20 Travellers and Explorers : Pioneers in Australasia/Harry=20 Johnston.=20 Reprint. First published in London, 1912. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services,=20 2000, 308 p., maps, plates, ISBN 81-206-1506-X.=20 Details No. 17603  =  =20

Himalayan=20 Journals/J.D. Hooker. Reprint. First = published in=20 1854. Dehra Dun, Natraj, 1999, 2 vols., xxxv, 894 p., ISBN = 81-85019-82-7. Details No. 17701  =  

History=20 of the Portuguese in Bengal/J.J.A. Campos. Reprint. First = published in=20 1919. Calcutta, R.N. Bhattacharya, 2000, xxvi, 310 p., Maps, ISBN=20 81-87661-70-0. Details No. 17671  =  

In the Footsteps of Marco = Polo-Being the=20 Account of a Journey Overland from Simla to Pekin/Clarence Dalrymple=20 Bruce.=20 Reprint. First published in London, 1907. Delhi, Asian Educational = Services,=20 2000, 379 p., plates,  ISBN 81-206-1358-9.  Details No. = 17605

Journal=20 of a Residence in India/Maria Graham. Reprint. First = published=20 London in 1812. New Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 211 p.,=20 plates,  ISBN 81-206-1442-9.DetailsNo. = 15576 =20  

Lands of=20 the Thunderbolt Sikhim, Chumbi & Bhutan/Earl of = Ronaldshay. Reprint. First published in = London, 1923.=20 Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 267 p., plates,  ISBN=20 81-206-1504-2. Details No. 17602 =20

Ootacamund : A History/Frederick=20 Price.=20 Reprint. First published in 1908. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, = 2000, 281=20 p., plates,  ISBN 81-206-1513-1. Details No. 17607  =  

Oriental and Western Siberia : A = Narrative of=20 Seven Years Explorations and Adventures in Siberia, Mongolia, The = Kirghis=20 Steppes, Chinese Tartary, and Part of Central Asia/Thomas Witlam=20 Atkinson. Reprint. = First=20 published in 1859. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 483 p.,=20 plates,  ISBN 81-206-1468-2. Details No. 17597

The Pilgrimage of Fa Hian/Foe Koue=20 Ki.=20 Reprint. Delhi, Cosmo, 2000, 401 p., ISBN 81-7020-967-6.    Details No. 17717  =  

To Lhasa in Disguise : A Secret = Expedition=20 Through Mysterious Tibet/William Montgomery McGovern. Reprint. First = published in=20 1924. Delhi, Asian Educational Services, 2000, 462 p., ISBN = 81-206-1456-9. Details = No.17606=20

Western Himalaya and Tibet : A = Narrative of a=20 Journey through the Mountains of Northern India During the Years = 1847-48/Thomas=20 Thomson.=20 Reprint. First published in 1852 by Reeve and Co. London. Delhi, = Munshiram=20 Manoharlal, 2000, 501 p., map, ISBN 81-215-0974-2. Details = No.17581=20

Ancient India as Described by = Megasthenes and=20 Arrian : Being a translation of the fragments of the Indika of = Megasthenes=20 collected by Dr. Schwanbeck and of the first part of the Indika of = Arrian/John=20 W. McCrindle. Reprint. Delhi, = Munshiram=20 Manoharlal, 2000, 227 p., map, ISBN 81-215-0948-3.Details No.=20 15605

Ancient India as Described by = Ptolemy/John W.=20 McCrindle.=20 Reprint. First published in 1927. Delhi, Munshiram, 2000, xxxix, 431 p., = maps,=20 ISBN 81-215-0945-9. Details No.=20 15532=

------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C00A22.5F407700-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Aug 20 00:53:46 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA05479 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:53:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA08716. Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:52:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) id AAA08709 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:52:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph (sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7JMqlV10663; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:52:48 +0200 (MDT) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA28520; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 06:52:44 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp38.dyn240.pacific.net.ph [210.23.240.38]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id GAA06355; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 06:52:42 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <002101c0051c$8f596ec0$07f117d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Cc: Subject: [EXP] Esther Gall's request to be removed from list in reaction to my call for Spanish translator Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:48:53 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr I just received from discovery@win.tue.nil message from Esther Gall that purports to react to a call I posted to the email list for a Magellan scholar or navigation historian to translate Gines de Mafra's account from Spanish to English. I find it chastening that an earnest appeal should elicit so violent if not irrational reaction. In any case, I think you have an specific protocol instructing anyone who desires to be unlisted. I recall in the past such a message as Esther Gall's is usually followed by a concise advice to one and all on how to be unlisted. I am surprised you did not do so, in this instance. My instinct is to ask Esther Gall why she should react in such fashion. Is this a proper thing to do here? She certainly can make this a better world if she will allow those she finds aggravating to perhaps explain. She has to have an argument for her peculiar reaction. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Aug 20 02:43:06 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA13179 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 02:43:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA09005. Sun, 20 Aug 2000 02:42:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA09001 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 02:42:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph (sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7K0giJ26850 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 02:42:44 +0200 (MDT) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03869 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:42:35 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp69.dyn240.pacific.net.ph [210.23.240.69]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id IAA25964 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:42:34 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <000901c0052b$e8308380$45f017d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Subject: [EXP] Esther Gall, Gines de Mafra, the mystery isle of Mazaua Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:38:27 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Esther Gall's mystifying reaction to my call for an English translator to the Spanish eyewitness account of Gines de Mafra adds more mystery to the Mazaua landfall conundrum. But Gall's behavior, while I find "violent" in the sense of being sudden, extreme, intense, furious and forceful, is infinitely mild to what would have happened to anyone who would openly espouse during the martial law days in the Philippines the idea that Mazaua was not Limasawa, an isle in Leyte. Mazaua was the anchorage of Fernam de Magalhais and his fleet from March 28-April 4, 1521. It is today universally believed to be Limasawa, a small isle that looks like a truncated worm. Other than the fact that both are isles, there is nothing common between the two from name, latitude, size, etc. Limasawa does not even afford anchorage. It is a lee shore. The reason it was life threatening to publicly espouse the idea Limasawa is not Mazaua was because the most powerful woman during Martial Law was the patroness of the Limasawa hypothesis. This lady and her husband had power of life and death over 65,000,000 Filipinos. This woman still has clout, with billions of dollars stashed mostly outside the Philippines. Many persons in authority in the Philippines today are in some ways--politically, financially, commercially, etc.--connected still with this fabulous woman. The former head of the National Historical Institute was a protege. During the incumbency of this historian, he was able to affirm the notion that Limasawa is Mazaua by dismissing Gines de Mafra as a fake, ignoring the contrary evidence in the various copies of the manuscripts of Pigafetta, Albo and the Genoese Pilot. One of the outlandish views this historian asserted was that since Magellan did not know that there was no anchorage in Limasawa and that it was a lee shore, he was spared from the consequences of these facts by simply anchoring where he pleased. These are strange propositions, but in a country where navigation history is unknown and unheralded among historiographers, the weight of this historian's official position carried the day for his nonsensical views. The patroness of Limasawa no longer has the ability to threaten one's life and limb with impunity . But she certainly has other ways of getting at you, one way or another, in the Philippines or in cyberspace. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Aug 20 03:09:50 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA14511 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 03:09:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id DAA09061. Sun, 20 Aug 2000 03:09:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA09052 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 03:09:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph (sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7K19XV12857 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 03:09:34 +0200 (MDT) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05258; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 09:09:30 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp249.dyn240.pacific.net.ph [210.23.240.249]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id JAA01759; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 09:09:29 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <001001c0052f$ab267540$f9f017d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Cc: Subject: [EXP] Gall's innocent mistake Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:55:10 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The chronological sequence argues against Gall's posting as having absolutely nothing to do with my call for Mafra's translator. I posted this on July 30, 2000. Many intervening and absorbing issues have passed. Assuming she was going through the exchanges from who knows what date, it is strange she should pick July 30 as the point at which she decides to be unlisted. The law of large numbers will allow for such coincidence, but in the normal course of events there is more than coincidence to Gall's action. I totally dissociate myself from your use of the word "damned fool" in the context of this issue. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Aug 20 03:09:50 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA14513 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 03:09:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id DAA09065. Sun, 20 Aug 2000 03:09:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA09057 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 03:09:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph (sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7K19aV12861 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 03:09:36 +0200 (MDT) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05266; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 09:09:33 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp249.dyn240.pacific.net.ph [210.23.240.249]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id JAA01767; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 09:09:32 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <001201c0052f$acea1e40$f9f017d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: "Oliver Seeler" Cc: Subject: [EXP] I do hope you're right Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:04:55 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Oliver, It was good of you to offer an innocent excuse for Esther Gall's mystifying message. I like to think you're right, but stranger things have happened in relation to the Mazaua landfall issue. Perhaps, this has not occurred in your Drake controversy. But as I explain in my note posted just a while ago, Esther Gall's action may have a place in the continuum of mysterious happenings relative to Mazaua. My warm regards and highest esteem. Vicente From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Aug 20 04:24:33 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA16705 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 04:24:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA09255. Sun, 20 Aug 2000 04:22:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA09251 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 04:22:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.mcn.org (mail.mcn.org [204.189.12.25]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7K2MoJ27826 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 04:22:51 +0200 (MDT) Received: from Win95 (ha-1o-men-p1-m17.mcn.org [63.193.12.29]) by mail.mcn.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id e7K2Mmw29387 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 19:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000819192239.009b6c70@mail.mcn.org> X-Sender: oseeler@mail.mcn.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 19:22:39 -0700 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Oliver Seeler Subject: Re: [EXP] Gall's innocent mistake In-Reply-To: <001001c0052f$ab267540$f9f017d2@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 21:55 8/13/00 +0800, you wrote: >The chronological sequence argues against Gall's posting as having >absolutely nothing to do with my call for Mafra's translator. I posted this >on July 30, 2000. Many intervening and absorbing issues have passed. >Assuming she was going through the exchanges from who knows what date, it is >strange she should pick July 30 as the point at which she decides to be >unlisted. The law of large numbers will allow for such coincidence, but in >the normal course of events there is more than coincidence to Gall's action. > >I totally dissociate myself from your use of the word "damned fool" in the >context of this issue. Vincente & Group: I need to make it clear that the last line above has nothing to do with me - it's hard to tell who Vincente is addressing in this post, because he's been replying to private email (at least mine) on the list, but it's not me. My earlier private mail to him (to which he responded with a nice note on the list) consisted of the suggestion that the person attempting to unsubscribe obviously didn't know how to do so, and that her request thus might have been only incidentally attached to a "reply" to Vincente's article. As for the rest of the above, there have been interruptions here in getting postings from this list (and there's nothing wrong with my email system); I've received only 22 messages between Vincent's July 30 posting and Ms. Gall's request, but I suspect that there were many more - when I have the time I guess I'll look in the archives. Another possibility is that Ms. Gall's mailbox at her ISP became full at that time - she would then not receive further list mail, and the full box would be a good, and of course perfectly innocent, reason to unsubscribe. Best Regards, Oliver Oliver Seeler Director, Nova Albion Research oseeler@mcn.org & bagpipes@mcn.org ~visit our sites~ ***The Universe of Bagpipes*** ~over 30 kinds of bagpipes~ ~sound clips & hundreds of photos~ ~a new CD, Bagpipes of the World~ http://www.hotpipes.com ~ A Yahoo! Weekly Pick ~ ~and~ *** Sir Francis Drake *** ~ an international educational resource ~ http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/drake.htm ~ recommended by The History Channel ~ From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Aug 20 08:34:35 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA23929 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:34:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id IAA09723. Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:34:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA09719 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:34:10 +0200 (MET DST) From: zarea@MECH.SHARIF.AC.IR Received: from MECH.SHARIF.AC.IR (mech.Sharif.AC.IR [194.225.40.105]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e7K6Y5V17050 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 08:34:05 +0200 (MDT) Received: by mech.sharif.ac.ir (MX V4.1 VAX) id 204; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:03:07 +0430 (IDT) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:03:06 +0430 (IDT) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-ID: <009EEE1E.AEBF8420.204@mech.sharif.ac.ir> Subject: RE: [EXP] Esther Gall, Gines de Mafra, the mystery isle of Mazaua Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hi I am a student in sharif university of technology in IRAN and my course is marine engineering . I like to study the information & see the big ship or nave that is made in large industry factory.but do`nt know the sourses about thoese. So I need to help me about. I want you that if you have information about journals or sites or.... send to me a mail. thanks. Email: zarea-us@yahoo.com BYE to... From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Aug 20 10:51:12 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA27691 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 10:51:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA09942. Sun, 20 Aug 2000 10:50:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA09938 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 10:50:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph (sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7K8okJ01945 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 10:50:46 +0200 (MDT) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02947 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 16:50:42 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp5.dyn241.pacific.net.ph [210.23.241.5]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id QAA02203 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 16:50:41 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <001901c00553$0bdc8640$05f117d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Subject: [EXP] Will Esther Gall please speak up and clear up this little to-do? Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 02:18:53 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Esther Gall's timing, if it is all just that, calls to mind a joke about our president, Erap Estrada, whose humongous appetite from the neck down is legendary but is otherwise known to have an infinite distaste for anything that requires the exercise of his faculties from the neck up. In this joke, our two past presidents, Fidel Ramos and Cory Aquino, together with President Erap were lined up to be executed by a firing squad. Ramos, who is known for his nerve of steel and absolute presence of mind, thought up of a way to distract the squad at just the moment when they were to squeeze the trigger. He shouted in a very loud voice, "Lightning!" as the command to shoot was made causing the squad to jump for cover. Thus Ramos, having escaped being executed, was ordered freed. Cory Aquino, getting her cue from Ramos, thought up a ruse to gain her freedom. She shouted "Whirlwind!" thus causing the squad to dock for cover, winning for herself her freedom. Erap Estrada, catching on to the game, marked his timing perfectly and at the very moment when the command to shoot was made shouted with all the powers that his booming voice could muster, "Fire!" Now, will Esther Gall please tell us why she shouted, "Fire!"? From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Aug 20 14:40:25 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA04818 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:40:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA10414. Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:40:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA10410 (ESMTP). Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:40:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id OAA15855. Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:40:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200008201240.OAA15855@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Esther Gall's request to be removed from list in reaction to my call for Spanish translator In-Reply-To: <002101c0051c$8f596ec0$07f117d2@default> from "vicente c. de jesus" at "Aug 13, 2000 7:48:53 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:40:02 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO vicente c. de jesus wrote: > I just received from discovery@win.tue.nil message from Esther Gall that > purports to react to a call I posted to the email list for a Magellan > scholar or navigation historian to translate Gines de Mafra's account from > Spanish to English. I find it chastening that an earnest appeal should > elicit so violent if not irrational reaction. I don't think the posting was in any way a reaction to your specific message. Rather, she probably took the first message from the list she happened to find, and reacted to that one. > In any case, I think you have > an specific protocol instructing anyone who desires to be unlisted. I recall > in the past such a message as Esther Gall's is usually followed by a concise > advice to one and all on how to be unlisted. I am surprised you did not do > so, in this instance. I have unsubscribed Esther, I thought that would be enough. But to avoid any further cases like this: To unsubscribe from this list, send an email to majordomo@win.tue.nl with in its body the text 'unsubscribe discovery'. > My instinct is to ask Esther Gall why she should react in such fashion. Is > this a proper thing to do here? She certainly can make this a better world > if she will allow those she finds aggravating to perhaps explain. She has to > have an argument for her peculiar reaction. She just is not interested in receiving email from the list. Maybe we are discussing subjects different from the one she was expecting, maybe the mail flow is too high for her, maybe she is changing email addresses... There are enough plausible reasons as to not call this 'peculiar'. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3i mQCNAzXP+9MAAAEEAKYAL+biKfWriRW1nnxzDo5JV2UFdHWi/rADnPjiJJFe4ZHq ks7dpDjpdS4jYjZP6L7I8gf1AV+/pNQANeVyDOQlUWru+7MYs7FOSiu1sdKoy60n C3oipTQdyHT620itx4lskUiWALWsHOXOiEayMxZtIFFdPjxJtqTsFIdW9jllAAUR tBFlbmdlbHNAd2luLnR1ZS5ubIkAlQMFEDXP+9Sk7BSHVvY5ZQEBtJYD/10nT/Uu ABXsVB7hnE+ExGAqAMuPyrwCHtRlRGwT94mr6ODjrIjzZHR/avg6TTRlhyHlGEXs GQs6yi0euGim6oxGkrLL8IiewxQTiP28v1/fFRYgRRYzHfxA0FbrO86aBecdz3tK etVgFbP/yt9xr3K0cEnkHYjFuI1KWKee7Fzd =mVxx -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 21 12:20:54 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA28730 (ESMTP). Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:20:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id MAA15170. Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:19:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA15166 (ESMTP). Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:19:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id MAA01240. Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:19:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200008211019.MAA01240@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Open polar sea? To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:19:44 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Maybe all those 16th, 17th, 18th and even 19th century proponents of an 'open Polar Sea' were simply a few centuries early: Source: Trouw, Monday 21 August 2000 (my translation) Part ice sheet north pole melted completely London - For the first time in fifty years visitors of the north pole can see something extremely remarkable: water. The thick ice sheet which covers the ocean near the north pole is melting, because of which a 1,6 kilometers broad strip of water has come into existence on the northernmost point of the earth. An American scientist, John McCarthy, told in the _New York Times_ he was completely surprised by what he saw. In a Russian icebreaker he forced his way through a thin layer of ice. At a certain moment normal sailing was possible and no ice was present at all. After ten kilometers the ice was so thick it could be walked on. Other visitors of the north pole were shocked as well. Like the American paleontologist Malcolm McKenna. "I do not know whether ever before in history someone was greeted by water and not ice on 90 degrees north," he said in the New York Times. Some scientists, as well as the environment activist organisations, think that this is a result of the greenhouse effect. Others point to the fact that the ice in polar areas is moving sometimes and that that causes the openings to appear. However, everyone agrees that the north polar ice sheet has decreased by forty percent in the last fifty years. Some experts expect that at the end of the 21st century there will be no ice at all any more. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 21 20:59:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA22967 (ESMTP). Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:59:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id UAA19333. Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:59:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA19329 (ESMTP). Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:59:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph (sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7LIx9V09703 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:59:09 +0200 (MDT) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA16481 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 02:58:55 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default (ppp251.dyn240.pacific.net.ph [210.23.240.251]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id CAA22631 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 02:58:54 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <000d01c00565$a28c18a0$fbf017d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: References: <200008201256.OAA15964@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Will Esther Gall please speak up and clear up this little to-do? Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 04:31:39 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: Andre Engels To: Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [EXP] Will Esther Gall please speak up and clear up this little to-do? vicente c. de jesus wrote: > Now, will Esther Gall please tell us why she shouted, "Fire!"? By the time you wrote your message, Esther had alredy been unsubscribed by me, so she has not seen your message. Apart from that, would you PLEASE stop this idiocy? Esther's message was in all likelihood NOT a reaction to your specific message, but just an attempt to get off this list for completely unrelated reasons. You should not take things personal that are not meant that way. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori Dear Andre, It's a basic thing in communication that meanings are in people. When two random events collide--Esther Gall's request to be unsubscribed and my call for a translator of Gines de Mafra--one is certainly justified to find a common thread. We don't know for sure if there was. Esther Gall is no longer in a position to tell us. All attempts to explain her action are mere conjectures, based on assumptions without basis in fact. Vicente C. de Jesus From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 22 16:47:09 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA13560 (ESMTP). Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:47:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA26286. Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:44:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA26282 (ESMTP). Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:44:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7MEiNJ22029 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:44:23 +0200 (MDT) Received: from 209-122-203-230.s484.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([209.122.203.230] helo=sanderva) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 3.15 #2) id 13RFHp-0003lk-00 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:44:22 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.20000822100536.006a2b70@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: sanderva/pop.erols.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) -- [Cornell Modified] Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:05:36 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Jeanne & Tom Sander Subject: [EXP] FINAL CALL for Hotel Reservations - SHD Meeting October 2000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The Room Reservation block the SHD 2000 organizers have arranged at the SHD conference hotel, the Capitol Hill Suites, expires Friday August 25, 2000. The hotel is under no obligation after that date to make rooms available. Prices may be higher. Rooms may not be available. When calling (202) 543-6000, be sure to specify that you want to speak with "In-House Reservations", specify you are with the Society for the History of Discoveries group, and in case of any misunderstandings, ask to speak to Yolanda or Selena. The Society for the History of Discoveries (SHD) will hold its annual meeting in Washington D.C., USA, from October 12-15, 2000. Full information about the meeting, program, abstracts , and accompanying events may be found at: http://www.sochistdisc.org/annual-meeting.htm HOTEL BOOKING DEADLINES: Those attending are reminded that hotel accommodations are YOUR OWN RESPONSIBILITY. Arrangements for hold on blocks of rooms have been made at two hotels. On August 25, the hold on rooms at the nearby conference hotel, the Capitol Hill Suites, will expire. Space and agreed rates cannot be guaranteed after that date. On September 11, the room hold at the more-distant Holiday Inn Capitol will expire. Attendees are urged to make their reservations NOW, so as not to be disappointed. It is easier to cancel a hotel reservation later, than to secure one then. Organizers will not be responsible for securing hotel bookings for registrants who do not take advantage of the arrangements that have been made with these hotels. **************************** Thomas Sander Activities Chairman SHD 2000 P.O. Box 10793 Burke, VA 22009-0793 USA SHD2000 e-mail address: shd2000dc@hotmail.com excuse cross posting From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 22 19:22:13 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA20927 (ESMTP). Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:22:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA27486. Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:21:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA27480 (ESMTP). Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:21:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7MHLSJ28786 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:21:32 +0200 (MDT) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.178.75]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000822172119.RXDZ17157.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com> for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:21:19 +0000 Message-ID: <39A2B6C8.1E4F9931@portolangroup.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:22:16 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] The Voyage of the Vega and Richard Mansir Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1C290FE9078C8D5162B63D10" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO --------------1C290FE9078C8D5162B63D10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings: I notice that there are many editions of Nordenskiold's "The Voyage of the Vega". A number of the early editions seem to include 10 fold-out maps. The prices of the different editions vary widely. Does anyone know which editions I need to consider in order to get all the woodcuts, text and maps? I don't want to spend a fortune for a first edition, if others have the same material. Can anyone supply me with any details on Richard Mansir? A few months ago some list members recommended hs book "Quest for the Northeast Passage". I have now read it and am interested in his background. Can he be contacted via email? Finally, does anyone know of any pictures, prints, models, etc of Nordenskiold's ship The Vega? The first attempt at a northeast passage left England on May 10, 1553. Nordenskiold completed his journey on April 24, 1880 when he returned to Sweden. The quest for the northeast passage was a journey that took 327 years. Very fascinating. I understand April 24 is still celebrated as "Vega Day" in Sweden. Thanks to all for your assistance. Phil Stover -- Phil Stover, President and Senior Partner The Portolan Group, Inc. http://www.portolangroup.com Email: pstover@portolangroup.com Phone: 941 322 8427 Fax: 941 322 0458 The Portolan Group recommends the music of Bill Douglas http://www.billdouglas.cc "'Tis with our judgments as our watches, none go just alike, yet each believes his own." Alexander Pope (1688-1744) --------------1C290FE9078C8D5162B63D10 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings:

I notice that there are many editions of Nordenskiold's "The Voyage of the Vega".  A number of the early editions seem to include 10 fold-out maps.  The prices of the different editions vary widely.  Does anyone know which editions I need to consider in order to get all the woodcuts, text and maps?  I don't want to spend a fortune for a first edition, if others have the same material.

Can anyone supply me with any details on Richard Mansir?  A few months ago some list members recommended hs book "Quest for the Northeast Passage".  I have now read it and am interested in his background.  Can he be contacted via email?

Finally, does anyone know of any pictures, prints, models, etc of Nordenskiold's ship The Vega?

The first attempt at a northeast passage left England on May 10, 1553.  Nordenskiold completed his journey on April 24, 1880 when he returned to Sweden.  The quest for the northeast passage was a journey that took 327 years.  Very fascinating.  I understand April 24 is still celebrated as "Vega Day" in Sweden.

Thanks to all for your assistance.

Phil Stover

--
Phil Stover, President and Senior Partner
The Portolan Group, Inc.
http://www.portolangroup.com  Email: pstover@portolangroup.com
Phone:  941 322 8427  Fax:  941 322 0458
The Portolan Group recommends the music of Bill Douglas http://www.billdouglas.cc
"'Tis with our judgments as our watches, none go just alike,
yet each believes his own."  Alexander Pope (1688-1744)
  --------------1C290FE9078C8D5162B63D10-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Aug 23 09:14:25 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA24872 (ESMTP). Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:14:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id JAA02143. Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:13:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA02139 (ESMTP). Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:13:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hotmail.com (f36.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.36]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7N7DoV05819 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:13:50 +0200 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 00:13:44 -0700 Received: from 203.30.236.67 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.30.236.67] From: "Stephen McKenzie" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re: CITY of LIGHT / ENGLISH in CHINA c13. Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:43:44 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Aug 2000 07:13:44.0362 (UTC) FILETIME=[AC3B00A0:01C00CD1] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO EXPLORHISTERS, I've been reading the CITY of LIGHT, by Jacob d'Ancona, trans. David Selbourne (Abacus, London, 1998). Selbourne says he was allowed (by Jews) to see the MS of a travel diary written by a Jewsish-Italian merchant adventurer in around 1990, and has been preparing it for publication ever since. The text is good - an excellent historical source for thirtenth century Judaica, trade, travel, conditions in India, religious relations, and conditions in Sung China. Jacob was there several years before Marco Polo. Jacob's perspective on the Gog and Magog / Tribes of Israel myth is particularly interesting. My question for the list regards a passage in the chapter describing conditions in 'Zaitun' (Quanzhou). Jacob describes the city as having an entire quarter given over to 'Frankish' merchants - French, Lombard, and even English (p127 and generally). These apparently existed in China in large numbers, and some groups had been there for a long time - over a hundred years. This came as a great surprise to me, and if Jacob is to be believed then it looks as though by the time Marco Polo made it to China, thousands of others had been before him. Thirteenth-century England is the milleu of the Hereford Mappamundi and other landmarks of 'scholastic geography' - I had always thought that very little in the way of first-hand information was available. Given that many of the merchants Jacob mentions must have been at least semi-literate, there must then have been a considerable number of trade reports taken back to England during this period, but I've never heard of a single one. Does anyopne know of any documents relating to thirteenth century European - and especially French and English - trade with Asia (India and especially China). Please note that I'm up with William of Rubruck, John de Plano Carpini, the Peggolotti brothers and the other more well-known material. I'm wondering if there is some kind ogf compendium of less well known Asian - European trade documents somewhere. Secondly, what do people think of Jacob and Selbourne's work on the MS? I've never read a Jewish travelogue before so I have little to judge it against. It seems an excellent historical source, as I said. Stephen McKenzie, Adelaide, Australia. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Aug 23 14:07:01 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA10076 (ESMTP). Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:07:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA04615. Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:06:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA04608 (ESMTP). Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:06:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from artemis.chass.utoronto.ca (artemis.chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.6]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7NC69J08529 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:06:09 +0200 (MDT) Received: from origin.chass.utoronto.ca (origin.chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.1]) by artemis.chass.utoronto.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08588 for <@artemis.chass.utoronto.ca:discovery@win.tue.nl>; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:10:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (raiswell@localhost) by origin.chass.utoronto.ca (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id IAA29932 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:01:43 -0400 From: Richard Raiswell To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: CITY of LIGHT / ENGLISH in CHINA c13. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Stephen, Though dated and focuses on Italian material, it might be worth looking at R.S. Lopez's "European merchants in the medieval Indies: the evidence of commercial documents," Journal of Economic History, 3 (1943):164-185. Aside from reviewing the circumstances around a venture to Delhi in the 1320s (as I remember), he also discusses why he thinks that there are no more commercial documents to be found. He argues that contacts for ventures to the East are extant; however, they are written in a deliberately ambiguous fashion, describing their inteded destination through such formulae as "wherever God will take me." As the routes to Cathay or the Indies were commercial secrets of the Genoese, it is telling, he concludes, that most of the accounts we have of them are from venetians or Florentines. *********************************************************************** Richard Raiswell // raiswell@chass.utoronto.ca Dept. of History, Room 2074 Sidney Smith Hall, University of Toronto, 100 St. George Street, Toronto, Ont. M5S 3G3 Centre for Reformation and Renaissance Studies, Victoria University, University of Toronto, 71 Queen's Park Crescent, Toronto, Ont. M5S 1K7 http://citd.scar.utoronto.ca/crrs/ *********************************************************************** On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, Stephen McKenzie wrote: > EXPLORHISTERS, > I've been reading the CITY of LIGHT, by Jacob d'Ancona, trans. David > Selbourne (Abacus, London, 1998). Selbourne says he was allowed (by Jews) > to see the MS of a travel diary written by a Jewsish-Italian merchant > adventurer in around 1990, and has been preparing it for publication ever > since. > The text is good - an excellent historical source for thirtenth century > Judaica, trade, travel, conditions in India, religious relations, and > conditions in Sung China. Jacob was there several years before Marco Polo. > Jacob's perspective on the Gog and Magog / Tribes of Israel myth is > particularly interesting. > My question for the list regards a passage in the chapter describing > conditions in 'Zaitun' (Quanzhou). Jacob describes the city as having an > entire quarter given over to 'Frankish' merchants - French, Lombard, and > even English (p127 and generally). These apparently existed in China in > large numbers, and some groups had been there for a long time - over a > hundred years. This came as a great surprise to me, and if Jacob is to be > believed then it looks as though by the time Marco Polo made it to China, > thousands of others had been before him. > Thirteenth-century England is the milleu of the Hereford Mappamundi and > other landmarks of 'scholastic geography' - I had always thought that very > little in the way of first-hand information was available. Given that many > of the merchants Jacob mentions must have been at least semi-literate, there > must then have been a considerable number of trade reports taken back to > England during this period, but I've never heard of a single one. Does > anyopne know of any documents relating to thirteenth century European - and > especially French and English - trade with Asia (India and especially > China). Please note that I'm up with William of Rubruck, John de Plano > Carpini, the Peggolotti brothers and the other more well-known material. > I'm wondering if there is some kind ogf compendium of less well known Asian > - European trade documents somewhere. > Secondly, what do people think of Jacob and Selbourne's work on the MS? > I've never read a Jewish travelogue before so I have little to judge it > against. It seems an excellent historical source, as I said. > Stephen McKenzie, Adelaide, Australia. > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Aug 23 15:58:37 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA15214 (ESMTP). Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:58:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA05558. Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:58:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA05554 (ESMTP). Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:58:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id PAA07616. Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:58:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200008231358.PAA07616@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] CITY of LIGHT (reaction) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:58:00 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The original message seems not to have arrived at the list. Trying again. Andre Engels Stephen McKenzie wrote: > I've been reading the CITY of LIGHT, by Jacob d'Ancona, trans. David > Selbourne (Abacus, London, 1998). Selbourne says he was allowed (by Jews) > to see the MS of a travel diary written by a Jewsish-Italian merchant > adventurer in around 1990, and has been preparing it for publication ever > since. Can someone give me a hint on the reliability of such a source? In particular, is the original manuscript (that's what 'MS' means, I suppose?) available to other researchers? > My question for the list regards a passage in the chapter describing > conditions in 'Zaitun' (Quanzhou). Jacob describes the city as having an > entire quarter given over to 'Frankish' merchants - French, Lombard, and > even English (p127 and generally). These apparently existed in China in > large numbers, and some groups had been there for a long time - over a > hundred years. This came as a great surprise to me, and if Jacob is to be > believed then it looks as though by the time Marco Polo made it to China, > thousands of others had been before him. A strange combination. I would not have expected Englishmen there, but I would expect many Genoese and Venetians. Are you sure about your dating 'before Marco Polo'? Quanzhou was conquered by the Mongols in 1276, I would expect a growth of European trade to take place AFTER that date. The note that they already came for 100 years sounds rather improbable - during the twelfth century, long-range intra-European trade and European Mediterranean trade had only just began to develop. European traders to China in these times seem rather unlikely. On the other hand, full impossible it is not, not many data are known about the traders. Here is what I came across regarding 13th century European trade with Asia: 1245: Carpini meets Italian traders from Constantinople in Kiev. At the court of Guyug Khan he is aided by a Russian goldsmith. 1255: In Konya (Iconium, Turkey) Ruysbroek meets a Venetian and a Genoese trader, who from the Turkish sultan got the monopoly on the export of alum. 1255: Ruysbroeck at the Mongol court meets a French goldsmith, Basil 'son of an Englishmen', and many Hungarians, Alans, Ruthenians, Russians, Georgians and Armenians. 1257: Chinese silk is for the first time traded in Genova. 1264: Venetian trader Pietro Vilioni makes his will in Tabriz (Persia). He is the first European known to have visited this city. 1260-9: The well-known voyage of the Polo brothers. 1280 or earlier: Genoese traders establish themselves in Tabriz. 1271-95: The voyage of Marco Polo. late thirteenth century: The Genoese establish themselves in Tana (at the mouth of the Don) and Trebizond (Trabzon). 1290: Il-khan Arghum hires some Genoese to fight the Egyptian trade on the Indian Ocean, but the plan is aborted when the Europeans start fighting each other. 1291: The Vivaldi brothers try to reach India by sailing around Africa. 1291: The pope puts an embargo on the trade with Egypt. 1291-4: A Genoese trader, Peter of Lucalongo, travels to China with Montecorvino. In 1305/1306 he buys the ground for Montecorvino's church in Beijing. 1295: Marco Polo hears about Genoese who have sailed the Caspic. 1307, but probably much earlier: Genoese traders are in Sarai, on the Volga. first half 14th century: All missionaries, and Ibn Batuta, speak about Genoese traders in India and China. Church-related activities in Asia are known to have started a bit earlier than the dates given above: 1221: Hungarian Dominicans start the christening of the Cumans in southern Russia. 1236-7: Hungarian Dominican Julianus is sent to the Bashkirs (SW Siberia) as an envoy. He does not manage to reach this area, but hears about the nearing Mongolian attack. 1245-7: Embassies of Carpini to the Khan, Dominicus of Aragon to Armenia. Ascelin of St. Quentin and Simon of St. Quentin to Georgia and the court of Mongolian leader Baiju, and Andreas of Longjumeau to Tabriz. Main source: J.R.S. Phillips: The medieval expansion of Europe. Oxford/New York: Oxford University Press, 1988. > Given that many > of the merchants Jacob mentions must have been at least semi-literate, there > must then have been a considerable number of trade reports taken back to > England during this period, but I've never heard of a single one. In the first place, trade-related documents of this period have survived much less than church-related ones. In the second place, I still do not believe that there can have been MANY English traders in China at the time. In the third place, these traders might well have been people from English, Frankish etc. descent, who did not visit their patria very often or at all, but lived somewhere in Asia. > Secondly, what do people think of Jacob and Selbourne's work on the MS? > I've never read a Jewish travelogue before so I have little to judge it > against. It seems an excellent historical source, as I said. If you want something to compare it against, maybe Benjamin of Tudela will do? He travelled from Navarra at least to Baghdad to visit the various Jewish communities, in 1165-1173. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Aug 23 17:16:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA19871 (ESMTP). Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:16:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA06233. Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:15:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA06229 (ESMTP). Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:15:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hotmail.com (f174.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.174]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7NFFVV09665 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:15:31 +0200 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:15:29 -0700 Received: from 12.13.238.141 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.141] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: CITY of LIGHT / ENGLISH in CHINA c13. Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:15:29 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Aug 2000 15:15:29.0553 (UTC) FILETIME=[F9112010:01C00D14] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >From what I read in the newspapers a few years ago, the whole story of the pre-Polo Jewish traveler is a fake. Sorry that I cannot cite references, that is, the newspaper articles. The revelation of the fakery followed shortly after the revelation of the "existence" of the manuscript. I believe the ms was supposed to be in Genoa, but has never been seen by anyone but the one gentleman who claims to have. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Aug 23 19:29:22 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA25140 (ESMTP). Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:29:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA07080. Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:28:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA07076 (ESMTP). Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:28:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from uno.bcn.net (IDENT:postfix@uno.bcn.net [209.213.0.60]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7NHSrV15159 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:28:53 +0200 (MDT) Received: from bcn.net (max-1-psf-93.bcn.net [208.238.84.93]) by uno.bcn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C273000 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <39A408C9.3D25B23@bcn.net> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:24:25 -0400 From: Overlee Farm Books X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] CITY of LIGHT (reaction) References: <200008231358.PAA07616@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO THE CITY OF LIGHT does not seem to have met the strict criteria for historical writing. See the following articles, Nicholas D. Kristof, NEW YORK TIMES (Sept. 21, 1997), p.1; Robyn Davidson, LONDON TIMES (Oct. 2, 1997), p. 40; Jonathan Spence, NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW (Oct. 19, 1997), pp. 20-21; Doreen Carvajal, NEW YORK TIMES (Dec. 9, 1997), p. A-9 (New England Edition). Martin Torodash Andre Engels wrote: > The original message seems not to have arrived at the list. Trying again. > > Andre Engels > > Stephen McKenzie wrote: > > > I've been reading the CITY of LIGHT, by Jacob d'Ancona, trans. David > > Selbourne (Abacus, London, 1998). Selbourne says he was allowed (by Jews) > > to see the MS of a travel diary written by a Jewsish-Italian merchant > > adventurer in around 1990, and has been preparing it for publication ever > > since. > > Can someone give me a hint on the reliability of such a source? In particular, > is the original manuscript (that's what 'MS' means, I suppose?) available to > other researchers? > > > My question for the list regards a passage in the chapter describing > > conditions in 'Zaitun' (Quanzhou). Jacob describes the city as having an > > entire quarter given over to 'Frankish' merchants - French, Lombard, and > > even English (p127 and generally). These apparently existed in China in > > large numbers, and some groups had been there for a long time - over a > > hundred years. This came as a great surprise to me, and if Jacob is to be > > believed then it looks as though by the time Marco Polo made it to China, > > thousands of others had been before him. > > A strange combination. I would not have expected Englishmen there, but I > would expect many Genoese and Venetians. Are you sure about your dating > 'before Marco Polo'? Quanzhou was conquered by the Mongols in 1276, I would > expect a growth of European trade to take place AFTER that date. > > The note that they already came for 100 years sounds rather improbable - > during the twelfth century, long-range intra-European trade and European > Mediterranean trade had only just began to develop. European traders to > China in these times seem rather unlikely. > > On the other hand, full impossible it is not, not many data are known about > the traders. Here is what I came across regarding 13th century European > trade with Asia: > > 1245: Carpini meets Italian traders from Constantinople in Kiev. At the > court of Guyug Khan he is aided by a Russian goldsmith. > 1255: In Konya (Iconium, Turkey) Ruysbroek meets a Venetian and a Genoese > trader, who from the Turkish sultan got the monopoly on the export of alum. > 1255: Ruysbroeck at the Mongol court meets a French goldsmith, Basil 'son of > an Englishmen', and many Hungarians, Alans, Ruthenians, Russians, Georgians > and Armenians. > 1257: Chinese silk is for the first time traded in Genova. > 1264: Venetian trader Pietro Vilioni makes his will in Tabriz (Persia). He > is the first European known to have visited this city. > 1260-9: The well-known voyage of the Polo brothers. > 1280 or earlier: Genoese traders establish themselves in Tabriz. > 1271-95: The voyage of Marco Polo. > late thirteenth century: The Genoese establish themselves in Tana (at the > mouth of the Don) and Trebizond (Trabzon). > 1290: Il-khan Arghum hires some Genoese to fight the Egyptian trade on the > Indian Ocean, but the plan is aborted when the Europeans start fighting > each other. > 1291: The Vivaldi brothers try to reach India by sailing around Africa. > 1291: The pope puts an embargo on the trade with Egypt. > 1291-4: A Genoese trader, Peter of Lucalongo, travels to China with > Montecorvino. In 1305/1306 he buys the ground for Montecorvino's church in > Beijing. > 1295: Marco Polo hears about Genoese who have sailed the Caspic. > 1307, but probably much earlier: Genoese traders are in Sarai, on the Volga. > first half 14th century: All missionaries, and Ibn Batuta, speak about > Genoese traders in India and China. > > Church-related activities in Asia are known to have started a bit earlier > than the dates given above: > 1221: Hungarian Dominicans start the christening of the Cumans in southern > Russia. > 1236-7: Hungarian Dominican Julianus is sent to the Bashkirs (SW Siberia) > as an envoy. He does not manage to reach this area, but hears about the > nearing Mongolian attack. > 1245-7: Embassies of Carpini to the Khan, Dominicus of Aragon to Armenia. > Ascelin of St. Quentin and Simon of St. Quentin to Georgia and the court > of Mongolian leader Baiju, and Andreas of Longjumeau to Tabriz. > > Main source: J.R.S. Phillips: The medieval expansion of Europe. > Oxford/New York: Oxford University Press, 1988. > > > Given that many > > of the merchants Jacob mentions must have been at least semi-literate, there > > must then have been a considerable number of trade reports taken back to > > England during this period, but I've never heard of a single one. > > In the first place, trade-related documents of this period have survived > much less than church-related ones. In the second place, I still do not > believe that there can have been MANY English traders in China at the time. > In the third place, these traders might well have been people from English, > Frankish etc. descent, who did not visit their patria very often or at all, > but lived somewhere in Asia. > > > Secondly, what do people think of Jacob and Selbourne's work on the MS? > > I've never read a Jewish travelogue before so I have little to judge it > > against. It seems an excellent historical source, as I said. > > If you want something to compare it against, maybe Benjamin of Tudela > will do? He travelled from Navarra at least to Baghdad to visit the > various Jewish communities, in 1165-1173. > > -- > Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl > telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) > http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html > > A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. > - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 24 10:45:04 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA00451 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:45:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA11892. Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:44:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA11888 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:44:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e7O8iVJ24135 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:44:31 +0200 (MDT) Received: (qmail 53007 invoked from network); 24 Aug 2000 08:44:30 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 24 Aug 2000 08:44:30 -0000 Message-ID: <39A4DFAD.26F7B1DB@easynet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 09:41:17 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re: Jews in China References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr I will be very interested in the outcome of the discussions regarding Jacob d'Ancona. Like others, I found that Selbourne's translation made absorbing reading, and could see nothing in it which would immediately condemn it as a fake. Could somebody give us the gist of the criticisms that have been levelled against it ? Arabic sources suggest that Jewish merchants had reached China as early as the ninth century, and that at least by the thirteenth century a network of Jewish entreports existed across much of the known world. For those interested, the paragraphs below summarise what I believe is the current state of knowledge regarding the Jews in China. If anybody can add anything to these notes, I would be delighted to hear from them. It was reported by the merchant BUZURG IBN SHAHRIYAR in his "Kitab 'Aja'ib al-Hind" ("Book of the Wonders of India", c. 950) that the Jewish merchant seaman, Ishaq bin Yahuda, visited China between the years 882 and 912. After a quarrel with a Jewish colleague, Ishaq left Sohar (in Oman) in poverty to seek his fortune in China and returned thirty years later with marvellous wealth. After a disagreement with the emir he again sailed for China but his ship and its contents were seized by the ruler of a port of Sumatra and Ishaq was murdered. It is generally accepted that the first Jewish families arrived in China via India during the Sung dynasty (960-1126), although other traditions maintain that they arrived via Persia as early as the first century, after the capture of Jerusalem by Titus. The first mention of Chinese Jews (the Tiao-kin-kiao) in European literature is found in the records of the Jesuit missionaries of Peking, although clearly by that time the Jews had lost virtually all recollection of their homeland, or precisely where it lay. JACOB D'ANCONA, who visited China in 1271-72, reported that there were two thousand Jews in the port of Zaitun (= Quanzhou), and many tens of thousands throughout China. He stated that they had arrived in the time of the patriarchs, and that only the rabbis could read Hebrew, the prayers and scriptures having been transformed into an unintelligible mixture of Hebrew and Chinese. The first mention of the Jews (under the name of Chu-hu) in Chinese literature (in which they were often confused with the Moslems, or Hwei-hwei) occurs in the Annals (Yuan-shi) of 1329, and again in 1354. There is just a passing allusion to the Chinese Jews in the letter of FRANCISCO XAVIER, written from Cochin on January 29th, 1552. In 1605, a young Chinese Jew, NGAI, during a visit to the Jesuit missionary MATTEO RICCI, declared that he worshipped one God, and on seeing at the mission a picture of the Virgin and child, believed it to be of Rebecca with Esau or Jacob. He stated that he had come from K'ai-feng, the capital of Ho-nan, where his brethren resided. Ngai stated that there were but ten or twelve families resident at K'ai-feng and that they had been there for five or six hundred years. Ricci sent a Chinese Jesuit convert to K'ai-feng, where it was discovered that the Jews possessed a synagogue (Li-pai-sze) orientated towards the east, where they had many books (some of which were published in facsimile at Shanghai in 1851). One of the tablets found at K'ai-feng stated that seventy Jewish families arrived in China at the court of the Sung dynasty, although another proclaimed the first arrival of Jews via India in the time of the Chou (1122-955 BC). K'ai-feng was subsequently visited by the Italian Jesuit, NICCOLO LONGOBARDO (1565-1655), on account of his particular interest in the Jewish community there. Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 24 11:42:15 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA03261 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:42:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id LAA12412. Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:41:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA12407 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:41:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id LAA09574. Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:41:49 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200008240941.LAA09574@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Jews in China In-Reply-To: <39A4DFAD.26F7B1DB@easynet.co.uk> from Ray Howgego at "Aug 24, 2000 9:41:17 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:41:48 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Ray Howgego wrote: > I will be very interested in the outcome of the discussions regarding > Jacob d'Ancona. Like others, I found that Selbourne's translation made > absorbing reading, and could see nothing in it which would immediately > condemn it as a fake. Could somebody give us the gist of the criticisms > that have been levelled against it ? I had not heared about the book before, but from what I read on this list, I already see some problems: 1. The unavailability of the original manuscript or even any corroborating evidence that it exists 2. The description that there is a special 'Frankish' quarter in Quangzhou (sp?), and that western traders already came there for a century, where I think that it is more likely at the time that western traders arrived in China only sporadically and only since a rather short time, and furthermore that most of them are Italian (more specifically Venetian and Genoese) rather than Frankish or English. > Arabic sources suggest that Jewish merchants had reached China as early > as the ninth century, and that at least by the thirteenth century a > network of Jewish entreports existed across much of the known world. > For those interested, the paragraphs below summarise what I believe is > the current state of knowledge regarding the Jews in China. If anybody > can add anything to these notes, I would be delighted to hear from them. In an old list of notes on what I read about voyages of discovery, I read: During the reign of Han Ming-ti (58-75) the second group of Jews comes to China. Uncertain, but not improbable. source: S.A.M. Adshead: China in World History. Houndsmills/London: Macmillan (1988). amount of information in the source: circa one paragraph. This is of course the same tradition you mention about the Jews arriving via Persia after the capture of Jerusalem, but it is at least interesting that it is described as the _second_ group. I don't know whether the book mentioned what it sees as the first group, if it does then at least I have not made a note out of it. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 24 17:05:03 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA19594 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:05:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA14786. Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:04:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA14782 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:04:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hotmail.com (f73.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.73]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7OF44J16012 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:04:04 +0200 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:03:58 -0700 Received: from 203.30.236.67 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.30.236.67] From: "Stephen McKenzie" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Jews/ English in China Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:33:58 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Aug 2000 15:03:58.0360 (UTC) FILETIME=[877F3180:01C00DDC] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Given the detailed responses the d'Ancona text has raised, I had better be more specific than I was in my first rather general e-mail: I am referring to the second edition of 'The City of Light' (1998, Abacus). The first was published by Little, Brown and Co, 1997. Selbourne has added an afterword to the second edition in which he defends himself against what sounds like a barrage of criticism from various quarters on various grounds - linguistic, historical, and not least the fact that no-one but himself seems to have laid eyes on the manuscript, which he says is in the private possession of a Jewish family and cannot be generally accessed for reasons of privacy. The articles mentioned by Greg McIntosh and cited by the people at Overlee Farm Books are doubtless among the ones Selbourne is referring to: THE CITY OF LIGHT does not seem to have met the strict criteria for historical writing. See the following articles, Nicholas D. Kristof, NEW YORK TIMES (Sept. 21, 1997), p.1; Robyn Davidson, LONDON TIMES (Oct. 2, 1997), p. 40; Jonathan Spence, NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW (Oct. 19, 1997), pp. 20-21; Doreen Carvajal, NEW YORK TIMES (Dec. 9, 1997), p. A-9 (New England Edition). Martin Torodash Selbourne also mentions (p441) that he wrote an article in the Times Literary Supplement, 20 November 1997 arguing for a committee of scholars to critique the text - but not the manuscript. I am not in a position to accurately comment on any of the issues Selbourne raises in the afterword. What Selbourne does not discuss is the rather problematic notion that there were well-established groups of French and English merchants in China when he arrived there in August, 1271. The particular passages that have aroused my curiosity are: "...a man may go about the streets of Zaitun as if it were a city of the whole world...in one separate quarter are the Mohometans, in another the Franks, in another the Armenians, in another the Jews (peace upon them)...and in each quarter separate parts again, as in the quarter of the Franks there is a part for the Lombards, a part for the Germans...and another part for those of our countries." (137-38) The last line is taken to refer to people of the Italian states. The writer elsewhere clearly distinguishes between 'Franks' and Genoese, Venetians, etc. "...the city is a mixture of peoples, and each people in the city, of which there are said to be as many as thirty, even those that have inhabited it a long time, has its own language. Therefore the Saracens speak in Arabic, the Franks in the Frankish language..." (137). (French?) Further on the same page he mentions hostels, cemeteries, and trade councils run by these trade enclaves. "...a man may see in Zaitun merchants from Aragon or Venice, Alessandria, or Bruges of the Flemings, as well as black merchants and English." (127). "There...being so large a number of Franks and other peoples in the city who have lain with women of the place, a man may easily see their offspring as he goes about, whom they call 'arguni'...or those who are the sons born of a woman of the city and a Christian." (140). If this last section is true, it must be taken as evidence that at least a fair number of Europeans had been in the city for long enough to produce a new generation - Jacob meets one of these 'arguni' who is twenty four (140). He nowhere precisely specifies how long the 'Franks' had been present in the city or exactly how many there were. For the Jewish presence, he rates their oldest temple at over a thousand years, and the Nestorian Christian presence at six hundred years. My estimation that the 'Frankish' presence must been over a hundred years old is based on Jacob's account of the 'Arguni', the cemeteries, and the notion that trade guilds, city quarters and cemeteries take time to establish. Having qualified my original message, I still find this all very surprising if it is true. I also still find the text excellent reading and I must admit that I hope there is some validity in it somewhere. I gather from Selbourne's afterword (which is still the only source I've got) that the text has been dismissed as a literary hoax by some writers and supported as a great historical find by others. Andre Engels wrote: "In the first place, trade-related documents of this period have survived much less than church-related ones. In the second place, I still do not believe that there can have been MANY English traders in China at the time." Nor do I. Even a small number seems extraordinary. What puzzles me now is the fact that this would seem to be quite a clear objection to the validity of the work, but it is not one that Selbourne tries to defend against in the afterword. Has anyone else raised it? Stephen McKenzie. >From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) >Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Jews in China >Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:41:48 +0200 (MET DST) > >Ray Howgego wrote: > > > I will be very interested in the outcome of the discussions regarding > > Jacob d'Ancona. Like others, I found that Selbourne's translation made > > absorbing reading, and could see nothing in it which would immediately > > condemn it as a fake. Could somebody give us the gist of the criticisms > > that have been levelled against it ? > >I had not heared about the book before, but from what I read on this list, >I already see some problems: > >1. The unavailability of the original manuscript or even any corroborating > evidence that it exists >2. The description that there is a special 'Frankish' quarter in Quangzhou > (sp?), and that western traders already came there for a century, where > I think that it is more likely at the time that western traders arrived > in China only sporadically and only since a rather short time, and > furthermore that most of them are Italian (more specifically Venetian > and Genoese) rather than Frankish or English. > > > Arabic sources suggest that Jewish merchants had reached China as early > > as the ninth century, and that at least by the thirteenth century a > > network of Jewish entreports existed across much of the known world. > > For those interested, the paragraphs below summarise what I believe is > > the current state of knowledge regarding the Jews in China. If anybody > > can add anything to these notes, I would be delighted to hear from them. > >In an old list of notes on what I read about voyages of discovery, I read: > >During the reign of Han Ming-ti (58-75) the second group of Jews comes to >China. Uncertain, but not improbable. > >source: >S.A.M. Adshead: China in World History. Houndsmills/London: Macmillan >(1988). > >amount of information in the source: circa one paragraph. > >This is of course the same tradition you mention about the Jews arriving >via Persia after the capture of Jerusalem, but it is at least interesting >that it is described as the _second_ group. I don't know whether the book >mentioned what it sees as the first group, if it does then at least I have >not made a note out of it. > > >-- >Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl >telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) >http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html > >A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. > - Maria Montessori ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 24 17:49:43 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA21035 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:49:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA15117. Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:48:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA15113 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:48:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hotmail.com (f187.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.187]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7OFmhV16294 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:48:43 +0200 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:48:41 -0700 Received: from 12.13.238.140 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.140] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Jews in China Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:48:41 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Aug 2000 15:48:41.0799 (UTC) FILETIME=[C6F37D70:01C00DE2] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr >2. The description that there is a special 'Frankish' quarter in Quangzhou > (sp?), and that western traders already came there for a century, where > I think that it is more likely at the time that western traders arrived > in China only sporadically and only since a rather short time, and > furthermore that most of them are Italian (more specifically Venetian > and Genoese) rather than Frankish or English. "Frank" was a term used by Muslims throughout the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance for Europeans in general. Did not specifically mean French or English. Its origin is from Charlemagne, whose imperial and military power impressed the Islamic world. Similarly, during the same period, the Muslims referred to the Mediterranean Sea as the Sea of Rum, meaning the Roman Sea. Greg McIntosh ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 24 17:56:54 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA21213 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:56:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA15195. Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:56:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA15189 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:56:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hotmail.com (f121.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.121]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7OFujV16629 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:56:45 +0200 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:56:44 -0700 Received: from 12.13.238.137 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.137] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Jews/ English in China Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:56:43 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Aug 2000 15:56:44.0066 (UTC) FILETIME=[E6679820:01C00DE3] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >"...a man may go about the streets of Zaitun as if it were a city of the >whole world...in one separate quarter are the Mohometans, in another the >Franks, in another the Armenians, in another the Jews (peace upon >them)...and in each quarter separate parts again, as in the quarter of the >Franks there is a part for the Lombards, a part for the Germans...and >another part for those of our countries." (137-38) This sounds more like a description of Constantinople (Istanbul) during the late Middle Ages. There were separate sections within the city for the different foreigners. The Genoese Tower in the the old Genoese quarter in Istanbul is still a famous landmark. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 24 17:59:48 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA21281 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:59:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA15216. Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:59:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA15212 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:59:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id RAA10557. Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:59:33 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200008241559.RAA10557@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Jews in China In-Reply-To: from Gregory McIntosh at "Aug 24, 2000 3:48:41 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 17:59:33 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Gregory McIntosh wrote: > >2. The description that there is a special 'Frankish' quarter in Quangzhou > > (sp?), and that western traders already came there for a century, where > > I think that it is more likely at the time that western traders arrived > > in China only sporadically and only since a rather short time, and > > furthermore that most of them are Italian (more specifically Venetian > > and Genoese) rather than Frankish or English. > > "Frank" was a term used by Muslims throughout the Middle Ages and into the > Renaissance for Europeans in general. Did not specifically mean French or > English. Its origin is from Charlemagne, whose imperial and military power > impressed the Islamic world. Similarly, during the same period, the Muslims > referred to the Mediterranean Sea as the Sea of Rum, meaning the Roman Sea. Certainly, and that is the way I read it. However, the article where the Frankish merchants are mentioned specifies the 'Franks' to be "French, Lombards and even English". And those seem unlikely to me - IF there were so-called Franks in China at the time, the majority would in all probability be Venetians and Genoese, not English and French (I do not mention the Lombards, as I do not know what exact region is meant by that in that time). -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 24 18:01:30 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA22091 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:01:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA15252. Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:01:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA15248 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:01:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.dreamcity.co.kr ([211.39.25.243]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7OG1KV16817 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:01:20 +0200 (MDT) Received: from henny-savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.173.237.40]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA25288 for ; Fri, 25 Aug 2000 01:13:26 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000825010436.024d1720@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 01:09:08 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Jews in China In-Reply-To: <200008240941.LAA09574@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> References: <39A4DFAD.26F7B1DB@easynet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr At 06:41 PM 8/24/00, Andre Engels wrote: >Ray Howgego wrote: > > > I will be very interested in the outcome of the discussions regarding > > Jacob d'Ancona. Like others, I found that Selbourne's translation made > > absorbing reading, and could see nothing in it which would immediately > > condemn it as a fake. Could somebody give us the gist of the criticisms > > that have been levelled against it ? > >I had not heared about the book before, but from what I read on this list, >I already see some problems: > >1. The unavailability of the original manuscript or even any corroborating >evidence that it exists >2. The description that there is a special 'Frankish' quarter in Quangzhou >(sp?), and that western traders already came there for a century, >where I think that it is more likely at the time that western traders >arrived in China only sporadically and only since a rather short time, and >furthermore that most of them are Italian (more specifically Venetian and >Genoese) rather than Frankish or English. I must admit my two yuan worth to this message is not much, but I do recall that I once had a book in which a picture of a centuries old mosque and ditto synagoge were shown in China, the caption was that nobody really knew how these were coming to China, especially since they were already so old. I can't check it anymore, since I live in Korea and the mentioned books had to be sold due to the move (moving around 40.000 books was just a bit too expensive despite their value) ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 24 18:24:30 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA22997 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:24:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA15441. Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:24:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA15437 (ESMTP). Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:24:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id SAA10608. Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:24:10 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200008241624.SAA10608@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Jews in China In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000825010436.024d1720@pop3.demon.nl> from Henny Savenije at "Aug 25, 2000 1: 9: 8 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:24:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Henny Savenije wrote: > I must admit my two yuan worth to this message is not much, but I do recall > that I once had a book in which a picture of a centuries old mosque and > ditto synagoge were shown in China, the caption was that nobody really knew > how these were coming to China, especially since they were already so old. > I can't check it anymore, since I live in Korea and the mentioned books had > to be sold due to the move (moving around 40.000 books was just a bit too > expensive despite their value) Regarding Jews, I think Ray Howgego's message tells the story: They arrived certainly during the Sung dynasty, but possibly much earlier, even in the first century A.D. Nestorian Christians also had been in China at least since the seventh century, although they had suffered much from having been forbidden some time in between. I don't know about the Muslims, but it seems likely that they too had come to China at least since the eighth century. When they actually started living there, I do not know though. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Aug 27 06:57:53 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA12884 (ESMTP). Sun, 27 Aug 2000 06:57:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id GAA01489. Sun, 27 Aug 2000 06:55:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA01485 (ESMTP). Sun, 27 Aug 2000 06:55:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.dreamcity.co.kr ([211.39.25.243]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7R4tSV13098 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2000 06:55:29 +0200 (MDT) Received: from savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.43.242.37]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29723 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:07:28 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000827083723.00bed430@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 08:39:11 +0900 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" From: Henny Savenije Subject: [EXP] Jews in China Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Since the topic came up in this list I decided to ask for more information and bring up the subject on Korean Studies as well, here's one of the answers: >While I am certainly not able to respond to the details of the inquiry >passed to us by Henny, I do know that the field of Chinese Jewish studies >is very compelling, indeed. > >In 1992 I attended an excellent international conference "Symposium on >Jewish Diasporas in China: Comparative and historical Perspectives" at >Harvard's Fairbanks Center for East Asian Research. Many papers (in >English) were presented by scholars from throughout the world focused on >Jewish communities in Kaifeng, Shanghai, Manchuria and Harbin. The >offerings were diverse, addressing topics from the Silk Road to Shanghai >Zionist organizations, from the Jewish connection to the Opium Wars and a >Jewish >member of Mao's Red Guard (he was there!). It was breath-taking. There are >now active organizations of Jews whose families lived in China as 19th and >20th Century refugees from Europe. Jews of Persian ancestry whose families >were stalwarts prior to the Revolution remain powerful leaders of the >remnant Jewish community in Shanghai. For a good read on the early >history, try Michael Pollak's "Mandarins, Jews and Missionaries: the >Jewish Experience in the Chinese Empire" (Weatherhill). My review of it >will be in the next issue of Kyoto Journal. > >On the contemporary political front, there is much interest in China's >lack of recognition of Jews as a minority population or Judaism as an >"official" religion, not to mention it's position re trade with >Israel. This is being addressed actively by the American Jewish >Committee's Asia and Pacific Rim Institute. ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 28 14:40:20 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA27247 (ESMTP). Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:40:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA09459. Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:39:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA09452 (ESMTP). Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:39:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.49]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7SCdBV18102 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:39:12 +0200 (MDT) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.178.32]) by mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000828123905.EXGL13787.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com>; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:39:05 +0000 Message-ID: <39AA5D71.CE31F419@portolangroup.com> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:39:13 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "maphist@camail1.harvard.edu" , "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] Visual Portrayal and Role of a Ship's Pilot Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Good morning: I am looking for any visual portrayal of a ship's pilot. Any media or source would be fine. I would be interested in any engraving (map, print, book plate), painting, clip art, etc. Any era is fine, but I would prefer a portrayal from the 15th-18th centuries. Can anyone help me? I am also interested in gaining a better understanding of where and how a pilot fit into a ship's hierarchy. Can anyone help with that? Am I correct in assuming that most every ship or fleet had a resident navigator or pilot on board (distinct from the captain)? Many thanks in advance. Phil Stover -- Phil Stover, President and Senior Partner The Portolan Group, Inc. http://www.portolangroup.com Email: pstover@portolangroup.com Phone: 941 322 8427 Fax: 941 322 0458 The Portolan Group recommends the music of Bill Douglas http://www.billdouglas.cc "'Tis with our judgments as our watches, none go just alike, yet each believes his own." Alexander Pope (1688-1744) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Aug 28 15:24:42 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA29937 (ESMTP). Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:24:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA09930. Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:24:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA09923 (ESMTP). Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:24:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.dreamcity.co.kr ([211.39.25.243]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7SDOLJ18060 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:24:22 +0200 (MDT) Received: from savenije.henny-savenije.demon.nl ([211.43.242.95]) by mail.dreamcity.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00744; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 22:36:10 +0900 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000828222557.00c89770@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 22:32:02 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl, "maphist@camail1.harvard.edu" , "discovery@win.tue.nl" From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Visual Portrayal and Role of a Ship's Pilot In-Reply-To: <39AA5D71.CE31F419@portolangroup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >I am also interested in gaining a better understanding of where and how a >pilot fit into a ship's hierarchy. Can anyone help with that? Am I >correct in assuming that most every ship or fleet had a resident navigator >or pilot on board (distinct from the captain)? Well I think it depends on which time you are talking, but in the old times, 17th century, the pilot or navigator was definitely on each ship and had was an officer, I couldn't find any 17th century Dutch document for pilots, but I did find one for the Schieman (Officer in charge of the rigs). Here follows the original text and translation: "De Schiman is so veel als een twede Bootsman: want gelijk dese de Grote en Besaans-mast, en wat tot deselve behoord, moet besorgen, so moet de Schiman sijn toesigt hebben op de Fokke-mast en Boegspriet en wat tot die beide behoord, en alles wat deselve van bloks of touwerk van noden heeft, van de Bootsman versoeken, De Schiman moet in 't laden en lossen altijd in 't ruim wesen, en de goederen behoorlijk weg stuwen, ook de zware touwen in 't kabelgat weg schieten, en op de Fokke-hals, Schoten en Boelyns passen. Hy heeft mede een Schimans Maat en welke hy vorders van noden heeft tot sijn behulp, Sijn verblijfplaats is mede in de bak, en schaft by de Hoogbootsman" (Oost-Ind. Spiegel, bl. 28). "The officer in charge of the rigs is as much as the second boatswain: since like these have to take care of the big and the mizzen-mast, and what to the same belongs, so has the officer in charge of the rigs to supervise the foremast and the bowsprit and what belongs to both of them, and all what the same of shrouds and running riggings need, if the boatswain requests, the officer in charge of the rigs has to be in the hold during the loading and unloading of the ship, and stow away the goods decently, also rigging heavy ropes in the anchor hole, and pay attention on the fore stay, the sheets and the backstays. He also has an assistant and who he furthers needs for help, his stay is also in the larboard, and eats with the high-boatswain."(Oost-Ind. Spiegel, page 28). (A little bit searching on my site would have spared you this question, as for the other one, a pilot's view can also be found on my site.) Cheers ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 29 04:14:53 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA09038 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 04:14:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA15092. Tue, 29 Aug 2000 04:14:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA15088 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 04:14:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.minn.net (IDENT:root@mail.minn.net [216.177.129.2]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7T2EOV26067 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 04:14:25 +0200 (MDT) Received: from default (pm2-3-18.dynamic.minn.net [216.177.137.113]) by mail.minn.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e7T2ELJ25517 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:14:22 -0500 Message-ID: <00c801c01160$ef89ec20$7189b1d8@default> From: "Keith Pickering" To: "Discovery List" Subject: [EXP] Fw: H-SCHOLAR: Query: 16th century Englishman Clement Adams Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:29:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3719.2500 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I'm forwarding the query below from H-Scholar. If replies appear here, I will forward them back. Thanks, Keith Pickering -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Jepsen To: H-SCHOLAR@H-NET.MSU.EDU Date: Thursday, August 24, 2000 10:30 PM Subject: H-SCHOLAR: Query: 16th century Englishman Clement Adams >Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:48:20 -0400 >From: Richard Yanowitz >Subject: anyone know anything about 16th century Englishman Clement > Adams? > >Hakluyt translates a Latin text Adams wrote about an English exploratory >voyage to Russia in 1553 (a voyage sponsored in part by John Cabot with >Hugh Willoughby as the leader--apparently froze to death somewhere like >Lapland--and Richard Chancellor as captain of the ship that made it to >Russia). > >Does anyone know a source to learn more about this Adams? In particular, >I'd like to know how he gathered his information for this text. (I suspect >he interviewed mariners who returned from the trip.) > >Thanks. > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 29 04:40:59 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA09673 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 04:40:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA15224. Tue, 29 Aug 2000 04:40:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA15220 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 04:40:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.minn.net (IDENT:root@mail.minn.net [216.177.129.2]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7T2eNJ16765 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 04:40:23 +0200 (MDT) Received: from default (pm2-3-18.dynamic.minn.net [216.177.137.113]) by mail.minn.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e7T2eFJ29136; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:40:15 -0500 Message-ID: <00e801c01164$8d2cd020$7189b1d8@default> From: "Keith Pickering" To: , Subject: Re: [EXP] Visual Portrayal and Role of a Ship's Pilot Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:55:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3719.2500 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The role of pilot appears to have changed through the centuries. In the 15th century, anyone who had the skill to navigate the ship was a pilot. The crew was divided into three watches, each of which required at least one officer capable of navigation. One of those officers would be the ship's master; the other two were usually pilots. It was also possible (but not required) that the ship's captain could navigate and take charge of one watch. The captain's role on a merchant ship in those days was similar to what in later centuries was called a "supercargo." The captain decided what port to visit, and what cargo to take on or sell; so the captain was a merchant, but not necessarily a sailor. The master was the ship's chief sailor, although it was not uncommon for both roles to be filled by a single person. Keith Pickering -----Original Message----- From: Phil Stover To: maphist@camail1.harvard.edu ; discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 7:41 AM Subject: [EXP] Visual Portrayal and Role of a Ship's Pilot >Good morning: > >I am looking for any visual portrayal of a ship's pilot. Any media or >source would be fine. I would be interested in any engraving (map, >print, book plate), painting, clip art, etc. Any era is fine, but I >would prefer a portrayal from the 15th-18th centuries. Can anyone help >me? > >I am also interested in gaining a better understanding of where and how >a pilot fit into a ship's hierarchy. Can anyone help with that? Am I >correct in assuming that most every ship or fleet had a resident >navigator or pilot on board (distinct from the captain)? > >Many thanks in advance. > >Phil Stover > >-- >Phil Stover, President and Senior Partner >The Portolan Group, Inc. >http://www.portolangroup.com Email: pstover@portolangroup.com >Phone: 941 322 8427 Fax: 941 322 0458 >The Portolan Group recommends the music of Bill Douglas >http://www.billdouglas.cc >"'Tis with our judgments as our watches, none go just alike, >yet each believes his own." Alexander Pope (1688-1744) > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 29 10:05:20 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA24043 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:05:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA16863. Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:03:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA16856 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:03:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e7T83WJ25096 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:03:32 +0200 (MDT) Received: (qmail 6902 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2000 08:03:30 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 29 Aug 2000 08:03:30 -0000 Message-ID: <39AB6D8E.4DE2D368@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:00:14 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Clement Adams References: <00c801c01160$ef89ec20$7189b1d8@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO In response to Keith Pickering's request: Clement Adams (1519? - 1587) was the author of the book "Nova Anglorum ad Moscovitas navigatio" (1554), which provided the earliest account of Chancellor and Willoughby's voyages. Adams was also an engraver, and a tutor to the royal pages at Greenwich. He was born in Warwickshire and educated at Eton and Cambridge. An English translation of Adams' book was provided by Hakluyt in his "Principal Navigations", vol. I (1598). The testimony of Richard Eden, as reproduced by Hakluyt, describes Adams as "that learned young man ... schoolemaster to the Queenes henshmen". (Henshman = an attendant, or squire). Samuel Purchas, in his supplement to "A Letter of Richard Chancellor ..", repeated an abbreviated account of Chancellor's voyage originally given in Adams' book. It is said to be "taken by Clement Adams ... from the mouth of Richard Chancellor". Purchas says "I have this booke of Clement Adams, in Latine, written in a very elegant hand ... (as I thinke) the very original". Purchas also reports that Clement Adams was the engraver of a 1549 wall map by Sebastian Cabot, a fact confirmed by other sources. This map portrayed the coast of America, crediting John Cabot (not Sebastian) with its discovery. According to Purchas, Clement's map hung in "His Majesties Gallerie" at Whitehall. It was presumably destroyed in the fire which consumed the Palace of Whitehall in 1698. The inscription on the map, reproduced by Hakluyt, says "In the year of our Lord 1497, John Cabot, a Venetian, and his son, Sebastian, discovered that country, which no one before his time had ventured to approach, on the 24th of June, about five o'clock in the morning. He called the land Terra Primum Visa, because, as I conjecture, this was the place that first met his eyes in looking from the sea. On the contrary, the island which lies opposite the land he called the Island of St. John, -- as I suppose, because it was discovered on the festival of St. John the Baptist. The inhabitants wear beasts' skins, and the intestines of animals for clothing, esteeming them as highly as we do our most precious garments. In war their weapons are the bow and arrow, spears, darts, slings, and wooden clubs. The country is sterile and uncultivated, producing no fruit from which circumstance it happens that it is crowded with white bears, and stags of an unusual height and size. It yields plenty of fish, and these very large; such as seals and salmon: there are soles also above an ell in length; but especially great abundance of that kind of fish called in the vulgar tongue, Baccalaos. In the same island also, breed hawks, so black in their color that they wonderfully resemble ravens; besides, there are partridges, and eagles of dark plumage." I am not aware of any books or articles devoted to Clement Adams; at least they are not mentioned in Pennington's exhaustive bibliography. The following contain some information on Clement Adams, but almost all concern his map of 1549: Dawson, Samuel Edward: The voyages of the Cabots in 1497 and 1498, with an attempt to determine their landfall and to the identity of the island of St. John (in Proceedings and Transactions of the Royal Society of Canada, XII, sec. ii (1894), 51-112. Deane, Charles: The voyages of the Cabots (in Justin Winsor (ed.): Narrative and critical history of America, vol. III, London 1889; New York 1967) Hervé, R. & A Rossel: Mappamonde de Sebastian Cabot ... 1544 (Paris 1968). Pennington, L.E.: The Purchas Handbook (Hakluyt Society, London 1997, 2 vols). Tytler, Patrick Fraser: Historical view of the progress of discovery on the more northern coasts of America ... (London 1832; New York 1836) Best wishes Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 29 10:55:01 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA26241 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:55:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA17341. Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:54:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA17337 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:54:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e7T8slV12490 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:54:47 +0200 (MDT) Received: (qmail 95797 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2000 08:54:46 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 29 Aug 2000 08:54:46 -0000 Message-ID: <39AB7991.2EF55ACB@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:51:29 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Clement Adams References: <00c801c01160$ef89ec20$7189b1d8@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Some more books more relevant to Adams and Chancellor: M'Crindle, J.: Chancellor's voyage to Muscovy: being Clement Adam's Anglorum Navigatio ad Muscovitas taken from Respublica Muscoviae (1630) … (London 1886). Poe, Marshall: Foreign descriptions of Muscovy: an analytic bibliography of primary and secondary sources (Columbus, Ohio 1995). Anderson, M.S.: Britain's discovery of Russia, 1553-1815 (London 1958). Berry, L. & Crumney, R. (eds.): Rude and barbarous kingdom; 16th-century English accounts of naval visits by Richard Chancellor and Anthony Jenkinson ... (Madison, Wisconsin 1968). Morgan, Edward Delmar & Coote, Charles Henry (eds.): Early voyages and travels to Russia and Persia by Anthony Jenkinson and other Englishmen … (Hakluyt Society, London 1886; 2 vols). Willan, T.S.: The early history of the Russia Company, 1553-1603 (Manchester 1956). Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 29 13:25:26 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA05626 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:25:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA18744. Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:25:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA18740 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:25:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: bhummel@dds.nl Received: from amber.dds.nl (amber.dds.nl [194.109.21.10]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7TBP2J08313 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:25:02 +0200 (MDT) Received: from feline.dds.nl (feline.dds.nl [194.109.20.19]) by amber.dds.nl (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA09483 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:25:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from moronic.edu.dds.nl (webmail@moronic.edu.dds.nl [194.109.21.17]) by feline.dds.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id e7TBOqa21352 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:24:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <243161108.967548552343.JavaMail.bhummel@dds.nl> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 15:59:10 +0430 (GMT+04:30) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] V.O.C. ship Verhildersum Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WebmailServer: De Digitale Stad, Ver. 1.0 by G.Hofstede 1998 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO A few weeks ago I asked about information on the WIC ship Verhildersum, built around 1655. I only recently found out that it wasn't a WIC, but a VOC ship. The 'Verhildersum' was called after a Dutch Borg (country-house) Verhildersum (near Leens in the province of Groningen). There will be an exhibition the ship in the Spring of 2001. But i don't want to wait that long for information to emerge. The Borg administration didn't want to give me any info on the ship. sy Ben From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 29 20:35:14 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA29280 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 20:35:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id UAA22158. Tue, 29 Aug 2000 20:34:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA22154 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 20:34:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id UAA04553. Tue, 29 Aug 2000 20:34:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200008291834.UAA04553@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] V.O.C. ship Verhildersum In-Reply-To: <243161108.967548552343.JavaMail.bhummel@dds.nl> from "bhummel@dds.nl" at "Aug 29, 2000 3:59:10 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 20:34:11 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O bhummel@dds.nl wrote: > A few weeks ago I asked about information on the WIC ship > Verhildersum, built around 1655. > I only recently found out that it wasn't a WIC, but a VOC > ship. > > The 'Verhildersum' was called after a Dutch Borg > (country-house) Verhildersum (near Leens in the province of > Groningen). I happen to have (or rather, the Public Library here in Eindhoven happens to have) a wealth of information on VOC ships in the form of a three-part series with the title 'Dutch-Asiatic shipping in the 17th and 18th centuries', containing a list of all VOC-ships that had been sent to, or sent back from, Asia or the Cape. The 'Verhildersum' is not mentioned in this list, from which I think I must conclude that, if it is a VOC-ship indeed, it nevertheless never visited the East, and probably never left European waters. Then again, the mentioning of being sunk in the Thames combined with the building date of circa 1665 makes it likely that the ship was either bought or confiscated by the States General to serve in the First Anglo-Dutch War (1665-1667), more specifically Admiral De Ruyter's expedition to Chatham, where he sailed up the Thames and destroyed many English warcraft in June 1667. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Aug 29 21:11:02 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA01403 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:11:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA22381. Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:10:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA22377 (ESMTP). Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:10:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7TJAcV26499 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:10:38 +0200 (MDT) Received: from [144.92.180.79] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id OAA11314 (8.9.1/50); Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:10:35 -0500 Message-Id: <4.1.20000829103431.014f5b30@students.wisc.edu> X-Sender: ASANDMAN@students.wisc.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:46:13 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Alison Sandman Subject: Re: [EXP] Visual Portrayal and Role of a Ship's Pilot In-Reply-To: <39AA5D71.CE31F419@portolangroup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO You might look at Los Hombres del Oceano by Pablo E. Perez-Mallaina (I apologize for the lack of accents). It's been translated into English as Spain's Men of the Sea and published by Johns Hopkins in 1998. I don't have a copy handy, but it had a number of illustrations, and I think at least one was a pilot. He also discusses the role of a pilot aboard ship. In sixteenth-century Spain, each ship was required to carry a pilot for the ocean voyage, in addition to any pilots picked up to enter individual ports. Pilots were supposed to pass a licensing exam, and after 1552 to attend a series of classes as well. The master was supposed to be able to take over from the pilot if necessary, so that there would be two people aboard capable of navigating. Alison Sandman At 08:39 AM 8/28/00 -0400, you wrote: >Good morning: > >I am looking for any visual portrayal of a ship's pilot. Any media or >source would be fine. I would be interested in any engraving (map, >print, book plate), painting, clip art, etc. Any era is fine, but I >would prefer a portrayal from the 15th-18th centuries. Can anyone help >me? > >I am also interested in gaining a better understanding of where and how >a pilot fit into a ship's hierarchy. Can anyone help with that? Am I >correct in assuming that most every ship or fleet had a resident >navigator or pilot on board (distinct from the captain)? > >Many thanks in advance. > >Phil Stover > >-- >Phil Stover, President and Senior Partner >The Portolan Group, Inc. >http://www.portolangroup.com Email: pstover@portolangroup.com >Phone: 941 322 8427 Fax: 941 322 0458 >The Portolan Group recommends the music of Bill Douglas >http://www.billdouglas.cc >"'Tis with our judgments as our watches, none go just alike, >yet each believes his own." Alexander Pope (1688-1744) > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Aug 30 12:23:05 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA14703 (ESMTP). Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:23:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id MAA27891. Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:22:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA27887 (ESMTP). Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:22:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.bl.uk (mail.bl.uk [194.66.228.57]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e7UAMcV04853 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:22:38 +0200 (MDT) Received: FROM mail.bl.uk BY mail.bl.uk ; Wed Aug 30 11:24:59 2000 +0100 Received: from ccMail by mail.bl.uk (IMA Internet Exchange 3.13) id 001E85A7; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 11:24:59 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 11:20:57 +0100 Message-ID: <001E85A7.C21394@bl.uk> From: Andrew.Cook@bl.uk (Andrew Cook) Subject: [EXP] Re: Franklin expedition graves at Todd Island To: MARHST-L@post.queensu.ca, Dave Shirlaw , discovery@win.tue.nl, maphist@camail1.harvard.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO (Original message posted to MARHST-L@post.queensu.ca; reply = cross-posted to discovery@win.tue.nl and maphist@camail1.harvard.edu= = for interest and advice.) = = I'm not sure the Todd Islands discovery of Franklin expedition grave= s = made on the St Roch II Northern Canada re-enacting voyage is = necessarily as new as CBC makes out. = UK Hydrographic Office Arctic Pilot, volume III (6th edition, 1976),= = p. 404: 'In 1931 the skeletons of some members of Franklin's last = expedition (1845) were found among these islands.' = UK Hydrographic Office Arctic Pilot, volume III (5th edition, 1959),= = p. 533: 'In 1931, Mr. William Skinner of the Hudson's Bay Company = searched the islands in quest of the remains of members of the = Franklin expedition reported by an Eskimo; four skeletons of the fiv= e = reported by him were accounted for. Pieces of navy cloth, the seams= = and lining of the material easily identified, were picked up in the = vicinity.' = UK Arctic Pilot volumes derived much detail from earlier Canadian = pilots, particularly the contemporary editions of Labrador and Hudso= n = Bay Pilot (later Sailing Directions, Labrador and Hudson Bay), and t= he = three volumes of Pilot of Arctic Canada. Canadian Hydrographic = Service sources for these publications (or perhaps Hudson's Bay = Company archives) might help provide further information on earlier = investigations of the Todd Islands site. = Andrew Cook = Dr Andrew S Cook Map Archivist, India Office Records The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB Telephone +44 20 7412 7828 Fax +44 20 7412 7641 andrew.cook@bl.uk ______________________________ Reply Separator __________________________= _______ Subject: Franklin/From CBC Author: Dave Shirlaw at Internet Date: 28/08/2000 21:46 Franklin expedition graves located in Nunavut = WebPosted Mon Aug 28 23:38:12 2000 = TODD ISLANDS, NUNAVUT - The discovery came as quite a surprise. And it mi= ght = help solve the 155-year-old mystery of the disappearance of Sir John Fran= klin = and the crews of the Erebus and the Terror. =B7 LINKS: =B7 Websites related to this story Near the end of the Canadian expedition through the Northwest Passage, a = local = Inuit, Louie Kamookak, approached the crew of the St. Roch II. He quietly= = invited the skipper, RCMP Sgt. Ken Burton, to come and see some remains f= rom = the Franklin expedition. On the shores of one of the Todd Islands - a major historical find. The g= raves = of five Franklin crew members. One has been disturbed, apparently dug up = by an = animal. But unlike other remains found over the years, these graves are q= uite = far south from where Franklin's two ships got stuck in the ice. = Other sites showed signs of cannibalism and that the 128 members of Frank= lin's = crew died of disease and lead poisoning soon after they abandoned their s= hips. = The Franklin expedition had set out to find the Northwest Passage 150 yea= rs = ago. As every Canadian schoolchild has learned, no one survived. = The St. Roch II is in the process of retracing the route of the RCMP scho= oner = St. Roch - the first boat to make it through the Northwest Passage both w= ays. = What's most remarkable is how the Inuit say they have known about this si= te = since the 19th century. = Archaeologists from the north will be summoned to excavate the site. Many= more = answers may lie in the undisturbed graves, which will add more intrigue t= o the = Franklin mystery, which continues to fascinate people around the world. = Dave Shirlaw Editor, Seawaves Magazine www.seawaves.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Aug 30 15:32:41 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA25246 (ESMTP). Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:32:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA29443. Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:32:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA29439 (ESMTP). Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:32:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ssmtp02.melange.isp (smtp.arrakis.es [212.59.199.83]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7UDWEJ21592 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:32:14 +0200 (MDT) Received: from hola ([195.5.78.29]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id G03XFV06.32Q; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:28:43 +0200 Message-ID: <000601c01285$e099cca0$1d4e05c3@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: , Subject: RE: [EXP] Visual Portrayal and Role of a Ship's Pilot Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:26:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I have read that in the Spanish ships in the XVII centuries, etc. there were two pilots: one was the "mayor" pilot or similar( = main, chief pilot) that was the one that knew the technique scientific of navigating: to measure altitudes of the Sun, etc. And there was also a "coast pilot" that was something exotic: The origin of these men it was " abandoned children, of horphanage". These men began to navigate from childhood, because his house was the ship, and their mission was to memorize the details of the coasts. When they were adults they were" coast pilots" and their ability was that they knew the costs of those lands of frequent sailings. Now, still in the fishing ships there are two "Patrons" (a mixture of captain and pilot of fishing ship). The" Patron Mayor" is the sailing technician. Another is the "patron de pesca or fishing patron", that is not technical man but that he has navigated from very young in an area and he knows everything with respect to the fishing in an area: how it is the bottom, how they are the currents, that fishes usually have there, etc. In the old ships there were two bosses: the MAESTRE (=MASTER) that was equal maybe to the current captain, and the "capitan" , that was something similar to the political boss or mayor of the ship. J. Anaya |The role of pilot appears to have changed through the centuries. In the |15th century, anyone who had the skill to navigate the ship was a pilot. |The crew was divided into three watches, each of which required at least one |officer capable of navigation. One of those officers would be the ship's |master; the other two were usually pilots. It was also possible (but not |required) that the ship's captain could navigate and take charge of one |watch. The captain's role on a merchant ship in those days was similar to |what in later centuries was called a "supercargo." The captain decided what |port to visit, and what cargo to take on or sell; so the captain was a |merchant, but not necessarily a sailor. The master was the ship's chief |sailor, although it was not uncommon for both roles to be filled by a single |person. | | |Keith Pickering | | | |-----Original Message----- |From: Phil Stover |To: maphist@camail1.harvard.edu ; |discovery@win.tue.nl |Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 7:41 AM |Subject: [EXP] Visual Portrayal and Role of a Ship's Pilot | | |>Good morning: |> |>I am looking for any visual portrayal of a ship's pilot. Any media or |>source would be fine. I would be interested in any engraving (map, |>print, book plate), painting, clip art, etc. Any era is fine, but I |>would prefer a portrayal from the 15th-18th centuries. Can anyone help |>me? |> |>I am also interested in gaining a better understanding of where and how |>a pilot fit into a ship's hierarchy. Can anyone help with that? Am I |>correct in assuming that most every ship or fleet had a resident |>navigator or pilot on board (distinct from the captain)? |> |>Many thanks in advance. |> |>Phil Stover |> |>-- |>Phil Stover, President and Senior Partner |>The Portolan Group, Inc. |>http://www.portolangroup.com Email: pstover@portolangroup.com |>Phone: 941 322 8427 Fax: 941 322 0458 |>The Portolan Group recommends the music of Bill Douglas |>http://www.billdouglas.cc |>"'Tis with our judgments as our watches, none go just alike, |>yet each believes his own." Alexander Pope (1688-1744) |> |> | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 31 00:29:14 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA19555 (ESMTP). Thu, 31 Aug 2000 00:29:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA03136. Thu, 31 Aug 2000 00:27:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA03126 (ESMTP). Thu, 31 Aug 2000 00:27:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e7UMRfV16921 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2000 00:27:41 +0200 (MDT) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 00:27:41 +0200 (MDT) Message-Id: <200008302227.e7UMRfV16921@kweetal.tue.nl> Received: (qmail 17950 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2000 22:27:43 -0000 Received: from jimh.msns.eph.ptd.net (24.229.52.223) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 30 Aug 2000 22:27:43 -0000 X-Sender: heritage@mail.ptd.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Heritage Map Museum Subject: [EXP] Antique Map, Atlas Auction XXI Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO www.carto.com Saturday, September 23, 2000 Auction XXI The September 23rd Auction of Antique Maps and Atlases is now displayed on our Web Site. http://www.carto.com 200 Images accompany 230 Lots of fine 16th to 19th Century maps from all over the World. Some notables: Lot 51. (World) Henricus Hondius. 1630. Nova Totivs Terrarvm Orbis Geographica...First State. Lot 1. (Atlas) Homann's Heirs. 1752. Maior Atlas Scholasticvs Ex Triginta Sex Generalibvs et Specialibvs. Lot 4. (Atlas) Cowperthwait, Thomas. 1851. Mitchell's New Atlas of North and South America... Lot 6. (Atlas) Johnson & Ward. 1865. Johnson's New Illustrated Family Atlas, Lot 9. (Atlas, World) Blair, John. 1803. The Chronology and History of the World... Lot 58. (Americas) Speed, John. 1676. America with those known parts in that unknowne worlde.. Lot 43. (United States Wall Map) Watson, Gaylord. 1867. The American Republic and Railroad Map... Lot 42. (United States Wall Map) Ensign & Thayer. c.1860. The Cottage Ornament. 1) This is a Live Auction with participants on site and others who participate by submitting Absentee Bids by phone, e-mail, mail or fax (Absentee Bid Form on Web). Please note the new location of our Auctions, as well as, the address of our new Gallery. Advance reservations can be made for "telephone bidding." Please contact us immediately. 2) Highly illustrated Printed Catalogues are now available and will be sent by PRIORITY MAIL. Individual Catalogues are $15.00 each and a Year's Subscription for Four Catalogues is $50. Foreign Subscribers: please add $10.00 and $40.00 respectively. AMEX, VISA, MC, DISC. You may e-mail, Fax, or telephone your order. Our next Auction is scheduled for December, 2000. Please call us about quality consignment. James E. Hess Curator & Owner Heritage Map Museum 49 N. Broad St. (Rear) PO Box 412 Lititz, Pa 17543 717-626-5002 FAX 626-8858 http://www.carto.com A child is not a glass that is filled but a fire that is set ablaze. Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 31 02:54:25 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA28527 (ESMTP). Thu, 31 Aug 2000 02:54:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA03785. Thu, 31 Aug 2000 02:54:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA03781 (ESMTP). Thu, 31 Aug 2000 02:54:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph (sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7V0rxJ19601 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2000 02:54:00 +0200 (MDT) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA08325 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:53:47 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default ([210.23.245.8]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id IAA01612 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:53:46 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <000201c007b9$b859a200$08f517d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: Subject: [EXP] Who is the first circumnavigator? Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 02:31:53 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr In Magellan Historiography, pp. 321-322, Martin Torodash states, "If scholars want to take credit from Magellan on a technicality, they should confer the honor of premier circumnavigator upon Henrique de Malaca, Magellan's slave, who certainly was the first man to take a 360 degree trip." He adds: "One can even make a case, as Boies Penrose does, that Magellan 'had traveled farther east under Abreu in 1511-12, going beyond, though south of, the Philippines, so that it is perfectly true to say that he in person had been around the world'." A similar claim for Enrique was made by a Filipino historian, Carlos Quirino, based on his assumption that Enrique was originally from Cebu, Philippines. Meantime, Sebastian Elcano is hailed all over as "The First Circumnavigator." Yet he had 17 other Europeans with him, including Francisco Albo and Antonio Pigafetta, when Victoria arrived at San Lucar on September 6, 1522. If Elcano deserves the honor shouldn't the 17 others be hailed as the first circumnavigators as well as a matter of simple justice and historical truth? Does anyone care to comment? Vicente C. de Jesus From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 31 09:21:43 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA14018 (ESMTP). Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:21:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id JAA05322. Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:20:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA05318 (ESMTP). Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:19:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id JAA01728. Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:19:59 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200008310719.JAA01728@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Who is the first circumnavigator? In-Reply-To: <000201c007b9$b859a200$08f517d2@default> from "vicente c. de jesus" at "Aug 17, 2000 2:31:53 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:19:58 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O vicente c. de jesus wrote: > Meantime, Sebastian Elcano is hailed all over as "The First > Circumnavigator." Yet he had 17 other Europeans with him, including > Francisco Albo and Antonio Pigafetta, when Victoria arrived at San Lucar on > September 6, 1522. If Elcano deserves the honor shouldn't the 17 others be > hailed as the first circumnavigators as well as a matter of simple justice > and historical truth? The honors for an expedition are almost always laid upon its leader. As a similar example, Amundsen was the first to reacht the South Pole. Still, the polar group of his expedition consisted of five people. Whe one says that Sebastian Elcano was the first circumnavigator, the meaning probably is that his expedition was the first circumnavigation. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 31 14:00:43 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA29422 (ESMTP). Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:00:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA07968. Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:00:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA07964 (ESMTP). Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:00:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sunny1.pacific.net.ph (sunny1.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.92]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7VC04J19155 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:00:05 +0200 (MDT) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.ph (pop2.pacific.net.ph [210.23.234.90]) by sunny1.pacific.net.ph (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11305 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2000 19:59:56 +0800 (PHT) Received: from default ([210.23.245.118]) by pop2.pacific.net.ph with SMTP id TAA23489 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2000 19:59:55 +0800 (PHT) Message-ID: <000901c007fa$7704de00$76f517d2@default> From: "vicente c. de jesus" To: References: <200008310719.JAA01728@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Who is the first circumnavigator? Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:20:18 +0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr ----- Original Message ----- From: Andre Engels To: Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [EXP] Who is the first circumnavigator? vicente c. de jesus wrote: > Meantime, Sebastian Elcano is hailed all over as "The First > Circumnavigator." Yet he had 17 other Europeans with him, including > Francisco Albo and Antonio Pigafetta, when Victoria arrived at San Lucar on > September 6, 1522. If Elcano deserves the honor shouldn't the 17 others be > hailed as the first circumnavigators as well as a matter of simple justice > and historical truth? The honors for an expedition are almost always laid upon its leader. As a similar example, Amundsen was the first to reacht the South Pole. Still, the polar group of his expedition consisted of five people. Whe one says that Sebastian Elcano was the first circumnavigator, the meaning probably is that his expedition was the first circumnavigation. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori It may be that Charles V was acting well within his rights to bestow the honor on Elcano as first circumnavigator and give him all other material and psychological rewards. I should think historians will be perfectly correct and acting within their own domain to correct Charles' capricious distortion of facts. Historians have no obligation to kowtow to kings and dictators etc. They ought to just describe events according to strict observance of the canons of evidence. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Aug 31 14:07:24 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA00577 (ESMTP). Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:07:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA08090. Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:07:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA08086 (ESMTP). Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:07:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id OAA02490. Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:07:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200008311207.OAA02490@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Who is the first circumnavigator? In-Reply-To: <000901c007fa$7704de00$76f517d2@default> from "vicente c. de jesus" at "Aug 17, 2000 11:20:18 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:07:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O vicente c. de jesus wrote: > It may be that Charles V was acting well within his rights to bestow the > honor on Elcano as first circumnavigator and give him all other material and > psychological rewards. I should think historians will be perfectly correct > and acting within their own domain to correct Charles' capricious distortion > of facts. Historians have no obligation to kowtow to kings and dictators > etc. They ought to just describe events according to strict observance of > the canons of evidence. I still do not agree. If you find this distorts the facts, then the same holds for almost any other expedition, certainly those by sea. Sometimes an expedition has 5 or 6 people, sometimes a few dozen people, sometimes several thousands. Should we all mention them whenever the results of the expedition are mentioned? I think it's much better to have the name of the leader as a 'shorthand' for the expedition as a whole. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori