From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 5 00:29:36 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e94MTZr04408 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:29:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e94MF2D04248; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:15:02 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e94MDPF27895 for discovery-list; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:13:25 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e94MD2K27884 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:13:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt (fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.200]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e94MCvD04029 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:13:01 +0200 (MDT) Received: from [194.65.202.30] by fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20001004221730.ODTJ27369.fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.202.30]>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:17:30 +0100 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:19:46 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P. Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] Content of a paper in a conference Cc: webmaster@sochistdisc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by svin12.win.tue.nl id e94MD7K27890 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO As everybody knows in this small 'milieu' which we (the Discoveries and Early Cartography lovers...) cultivate here in this big blue Planet... the theme of the relationship between the Portuguese geographical discoveries and the Fra Mauro map is one of the main themes in the core of my global theory aimed at unmasking the long-lasting fraud reigning in Portuguese historiography (the fraud of 'Prince Henry the Navigator' and all such myths, due to political reasons) and aimed at the explanation, in new scientific and unprejudiced terms, of the History of the Portuguese discoveries and navigation (and indeed the History of Portugal in the 15th-16th centuries). Everybody knows that it was that exact theme, when I tried to read a paper on it during the 17th International Conference on the History of Cartography (Lisbon, 1997), the one which suffered the censorship of the Portuguese official 'Commemorators', with the colaboration of their accomplice Mr. Tony Campbell... (a former friend of mine... whom I had trusted as capable of being fair and independent, and whose name had been suggested to the Portuguese Commemorative Commission by myself... many years before, in 1988)... Everybody knows that it was the censoring of that theme, since 1994-1995, and again in 1997 -- and most of all my public denunciation of that censorship (during all these years, with the understandable scandal arised...) -- the reason which originated the funny situation of my humble person being transformed in Portugal (from night to day...) from an 'official', 'famous' and 'reputed' author... into an accursed, damned and nonexistent author... (or a 'mad dog', or something like that...). Nobody can deny that since 1994-1995, and most of all since 1997, this is the funny (or, in a certain sense, not so funny...) situation going on. Nobody can deny it... and, in fact, nobody does... (there are only those who try to silence all this...). Now, it seems that a curious thing is happening. I have been informed of the fact that next week, in a scientific meeting which will be held in the U.S.A, in Washington D.C., organized by a serious and reputed institution called the Society for the History of Discoveries (the 41st. Annual Meeting of that Society, 12-14 October 2000) there will be an author, called Mr. Angelo Cattaneo, who will be reading a paper entitled *MID-15TH-CENTURY PORTUGUESE DISCOVERERS' ROUTES, THEIR COSMOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND AND FRA MAURO MAPPAMUNDI*. As it is understandable, from 1994-1995 on - from the time of the beginning of the censorship against my global theory, the persecution and silencing of the author of that theory, and the step by step, little by little, plagiarism of several limited aspects of that same global theory and its *nonexistent* author...(a very subtle and 'academic' way of trying to make disappear such a theory and such an author...) I am always curious and interested to know what is being said and written, or what is being silenced, about the Fra Mauro map and its relation with the Portuguese geographical discoveries. Unfortunately, being nowadays an accursed author (or a 'mad dog', or something like that...), and continuing to live with only the modest pay of a teacher in a Portuguese University... -- very far from the big money which gives the Portuguese Commemorative Commissars and Members of the Board (including Mr. Tony Campbell) the opportunity and the power to choose and to organize Conferences... -- I will not have the possibility to take a plane and fly to Washington D.C., to be present and hear what this author Mr. Angelo Cattaneo will say, in October 2000, on the theme of THE FRA MAURO MAP AND THE PORTUGUESE. I am therefore making this situation public, and asking if someone -- the author of the paper which will be read, the institution organizing the Meeting (possibly also the same institution which will be the publisher of the volume of Proceedings?), anyone who will be in the room, etc. -- will be so kind as to send me the text or any other documentation in relation with that particular paper read in a public conference. Thank you. My views on the Fra Mauro map and the Portuguese geographical discoveries of the 15th century were made public, since 1994-1995, mostly in chapter 4 'A Origem do Plano da India: o Mapa Veneziano do Infante Dom Pedro' [The Origin of the 'Plan of India': Prince Peter's Venetian Map] of my book *A Maldição da Memória do Infante Dom Pedro e as Origens dos Descobrimentos Portugueses* [The Accursed Heritage of Prince Peter and the Origins of the Portuguese Discoveries] (Figueira da Foz: Centro de Estudos do Mar, 1994 [1995], ISBN 9728289006; book launched on 15 July 1995). Recently a summary of my theory, in English, has been published in 'The Portuguese Prince Pedro's Purchase of the Fra Mauro Map from Venice', The Globe: Journal of the Australian Map Circle, Melbourne, 1999, nr. 48, 1-34. A message on the Fra Mauro map, its dating, etc., was sent in the past by me to the MapHist discussion group, on 13.04.2000. Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 Fax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras Fax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL Visit the Bibliography of the Discoveries at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* DESIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 5 02:27:14 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e950RDr12914 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:27:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e950AnD09741; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:10:49 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e950ALd28596 for discovery-list; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:10:21 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e950AAK28592 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:10:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhub.ncia.net (mailhub.ncia.net [208.197.116.10]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e950A8D09681 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:10:09 +0200 (MDT) Received: from ncia.net (lac-flex221.ncia.net [208.197.116.221]) by mailhub.ncia.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e950A6H07140 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 20:10:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from burack@ncia.net) Message-ID: <39DBC5A8.4131EBA1@ncia.net> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 20:04:56 -0400 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Content of a paper in a conference References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is an interesting letter. I have no knowledge whatever of its author of his alleged entrenched opposition or the subject matter. But claims of academic suppression deserve to be carefully considered and analyzed. Similar stories are a dime a dozen in all of academia. There must be some authorities out there who can pass fair judgment on Marqes' allegations and I hope they will. Richard Burack "Alfredo P. Marques - CEMAR" wrote: > > As everybody knows in this small 'milieu' which we (the Discoveries and > Early Cartography lovers...) cultivate here in this big blue Planet... the > theme of the relationship between the Portuguese geographical discoveries > and the Fra Mauro map is one of the main themes in the core of my global > theory aimed at unmasking the long-lasting fraud reigning in Portuguese > historiography (the fraud of 'Prince Henry the Navigator' and all such > myths, due to political reasons) and aimed at the explanation, in new > scientific and unprejudiced terms, of the History of the Portuguese > discoveries and navigation (and indeed the History of Portugal in the > 15th-16th centuries). > > Everybody knows that it was that exact theme, when I tried to read a paper > on it during the 17th International Conference on the History of > Cartography (Lisbon, 1997), the one which suffered the censorship of the > Portuguese official 'Commemorators', with the colaboration of their > accomplice Mr. Tony Campbell... (a former friend of mine... whom I had > trusted as capable of being fair and independent, and whose name had been > suggested to the Portuguese Commemorative Commission by myself... many > years before, in 1988)... > > Everybody knows that it was the censoring of that theme, since 1994-1995, > and again in 1997 -- and most of all my public denunciation of that > censorship (during all these years, with the understandable scandal > arised...) -- the reason which originated the funny situation of my humble > person being transformed in Portugal (from night to day...) from an > 'official', 'famous' and 'reputed' author... into an accursed, damned and > nonexistent author... (or a 'mad dog', or something like that...). > > Nobody can deny that since 1994-1995, and most of all since 1997, this is > the funny (or, in a certain sense, not so funny...) situation going on. > Nobody can deny it... and, in fact, nobody does... (there are only those > who try to silence all this...). > > Now, it seems that a curious thing is happening. I have been informed of > the fact that next week, in a scientific meeting which will be held in the > U.S.A, in Washington D.C., organized by a serious and reputed institution > called the Society for the History of Discoveries (the 41st. Annual Meeting > of that Society, 12-14 October 2000) there will be an author, called Mr. > Angelo Cattaneo, who will be reading a paper entitled *MID-15TH-CENTURY > PORTUGUESE DISCOVERERS' ROUTES, THEIR COSMOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND AND FRA > MAURO MAPPAMUNDI*. > As it is understandable, from 1994-1995 on - from the time of the beginning > of the censorship against my global theory, the persecution and silencing > of the author of that theory, and the step by step, little by little, > plagiarism of several limited aspects of that same global theory and its > *nonexistent* author...(a very subtle and 'academic' way of trying to make > disappear such a theory and such an author...) I am always curious and > interested to know what is being said and written, or what is being > silenced, about the Fra Mauro map and its relation with the Portuguese > geographical discoveries. > Unfortunately, being nowadays an accursed author (or a 'mad dog', or > something like that...), and continuing to live with only the modest pay of > a teacher in a Portuguese University... -- very far from the big money > which gives the Portuguese Commemorative Commissars and Members of the > Board (including Mr. Tony Campbell) the opportunity and the power to choose > and to organize Conferences... -- I will not have the possibility to take a > plane and fly to Washington D.C., to be present and hear what this author > Mr. Angelo Cattaneo will say, in October 2000, on the theme of THE FRA > MAURO MAP AND THE PORTUGUESE. > I am therefore making this situation public, and asking if someone -- the > author of the paper which will be read, the institution organizing the > Meeting (possibly also the same institution which will be the publisher of > the volume of Proceedings?), anyone who will be in the room, etc. -- will > be so kind as to send me the text or any other documentation in relation > with that particular paper read in a public conference. > Thank you. > > My views on the Fra Mauro map and the Portuguese geographical discoveries > of the 15th century were made public, since 1994-1995, mostly in chapter 4 > 'A Origem do Plano da India: o Mapa Veneziano do Infante Dom Pedro' [The > Origin of the 'Plan of India': Prince Peter's Venetian Map] of my book *A > Maldição da Memória do Infante Dom Pedro e as Origens dos Descobrimentos > Portugueses* [The Accursed Heritage of Prince Peter and the Origins of the > Portuguese Discoveries] (Figueira da Foz: Centro de Estudos do Mar, 1994 > [1995], ISBN 9728289006; book launched on 15 July 1995). > Recently a summary of my theory, in English, has been published in 'The > Portuguese Prince Pedro's Purchase of the Fra Mauro Map from Venice', The > Globe: Journal of the Australian Map Circle, Melbourne, 1999, nr. 48, 1-34. > A message on the Fra Mauro map, its dating, etc., was sent in the past by > me to the MapHist discussion group, on 13.04.2000. > > Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * > Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** > PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** > ************* * * * * > ** ************ > ************* **** > ****************** * *** ** > * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** > ************************************************************** > alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar > Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 > Fax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos > PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ > ************************************************************** > alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques > Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras > Fax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra > Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL > > Visit the Bibliography of the Discoveries at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm > http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm > ************************************************* DESIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 5 02:34:46 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e950Yjr13139 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:34:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e950DlD09917; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:13:47 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e950DfW28634 for discovery-list; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:13:42 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e950DaK28630 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:13:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ssmtp03.melange.isp (smtp.arrakis.es [212.59.199.83]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e950DaD09912 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:13:36 +0200 (MDT) Received: from hola ([212.59.206.7]) by ssmtp03.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id G1XKJ000.00B for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:11:24 +0200 Message-ID: <000601c02e60$3f0675e0$07ce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Who is the first circumnavigator? Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:07:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO According to a book about the Magellan's travel, the crew initially was 270 people: of Portugal: 31 of Italy (especially of Genoa and Venice): 29 of France: 17 of Greece: 6 of Flanders: 6 of Germany: 5 of England: 4 2 Malayans 1 Moorish 4 blacks The rest was Spaniards, specially Basque spaniards The crew that returned to Seville in the " nao " Victoria (a carrack?) was 18 men: The captain, a Basque, Juan Sebastian Elcano Of Greece, three people: the pilot Francisco Albo, a "maestre" ( master?) Miguel of Rhodas, and a sailor a man of Genoa: the "alguacil" (policeman of the ship?) : Martin of Yudicibus the boatswain Juan of Acurio, spaniard two "grumetes" (sailor boys), spaniards a "paje" ( page?), a boy, spaniard the barber, Bustamante, spaniard a gunner, of Germany two sailors from Portugal a sailor of Naples a " sobresaliente", Antonio Lombardo (: Pigafetta) Jose Anaya xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Mensaje original----- De: vicente c. de jesus Para: discovery@win.tue.nl |In the case of Elcano and his co-circumnavigators, the pragmatic thing is to |describe the event simply as the first circumnavigation by 18 Europeans led |by Sebastian Elcano. And then name all his 17 mates. Morison, I believe, |offered a more felicitous solution that renders justice to Magellan. He said |the event ought to be described as the expedition, conceived by Ferdinand |Magellan, that succeeded in rounding the globe. It avoids the untruth--that |is too obvious no one sees it--that Elcano is the first circumnavigator. |Charles, when he named Elcano as first circumnavigator, had his eye on his |purse and the need to limit the number of his subjects who had coat of arms. | |The problem is akin to the scientist who in ordinary everyday conversation |is excused when he says the sun will set or will rise on such and such a |time. I think the astronomer observes a different set of standards when he |writes of the movement of the sun and the earth. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 5 03:13:55 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e951Dsr14844 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 03:13:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9516AD11912; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 03:06:10 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9515mp28868 for discovery-list; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 03:05:48 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9515gK28864 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 03:05:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ssmtp03.melange.isp (smtp.arrakis.es [212.59.199.83]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9515fD11899 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 03:05:41 +0200 (MDT) Received: from hola ([212.59.207.4]) by ssmtp03.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id G1XMXV00.6ZG for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 03:03:31 +0200 Message-ID: <000801c02e67$8671fba0$04cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RV: [EXP] Who is the first circumnavigator? Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:59:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO -----Mensaje original----- De: j. anaya Para: discovery@win.tue.nl Fecha: jueves, 05 de octubre de 2000 2:18 Asunto: RE: [EXP] Who is the first circumnavigator? |According to a book about the Magellan's travel, |The crew that returned to Seville in | the " nao " Victoria (a carrack?) was 18 men: |The captain, a Basque, Juan Sebastian Elcano |Of Greece, three people: the pilot Francisco Albo, | a "maestre" ( master?) Miguel of Rhodas, and a sailor |a man of Genoa: the "alguacil" (policeman of the ship?) : Martin of |Yudicibus |the boatswain Juan of Acurio, spaniard |two "grumetes" (sailor boys), spaniards |a "paje" ( page?), a boy, spaniard |the barber, Bustamante, spaniard |a gunner, of Germany |two sailors from Portugal |a sailor of Naples |a " sobresaliente", Antonio Lombardo (: Pigafetta) ======> plus two sailors, spaniards. And a man more, that I do not know....sorry...they are 18 ?.... J. Anaya| From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Oct 10 13:39:59 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9ABdxr24046 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:39:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9ABNwM06596; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:23:58 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9ABLai17426 for discovery-list; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:21:36 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9ABLTK17422 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:21:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.bl.uk (mail.bl.uk [194.66.228.57]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e9ABLS724740 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:21:28 +0200 (MDT) Received: FROM mail.bl.uk BY mail.bl.uk ; Tue Oct 10 12:24:37 2000 +0100 Received: from ccMail by mail.bl.uk (IMA Internet Exchange 3.13) id 0021DBE4; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:24:37 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:21:17 +0100 Message-ID: <0021DBE4.C21394@bl.uk> From: Andrew.Cook@bl.uk (Andrew Cook) Subject: [EXP] Message from Tony Campbell re Dr A P Marques' posting To: discovery@win.tue.nl Cc: Tony.Campbell@bl.uk (Tony Campbell) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO My colleague Tony Campbell, who is not at present a subscriber to this list, has learnt that Dr Marques has posted to the Discovery list the same message which he sent to the Maphist list a few days ago. Tony asks me to post, for the benefit of subscribers who have seen Dr A P Marques' recent posting only here, the reply which he made to the Maphist discussion list after Dr Marques' similar posting there. Andrew Cook ----------------------------------------------------------- Dr Andrew S Cook andrew.cook@bl.uk Map Archivist, India Office Records The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB Telephone/Voicemail 020 7412 7828 United Kingdom Fax 020 7412 7641 ----------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Dr A P Marques Author: Tony.Campbell@bl.uk (Tony Campbell) at Internet Date: 06/10/2000 1:26 PM I am, with considerable misgivings, responding to the latest in a sequence of messages sent to MapHist by Dr Alfredo Pinheiro Marques. The ostensible reason for his last posting is the forthcoming SHD conference. Each message, however, has contained a very similar attack on myself, relating to the 17th International Conference on the History of Cartography (Lisbon, 1997). The personal insults I am happy to leave to others to deal with, even if, as in this case, my 'silence' has been unjustifiably presented as endorsement of Dr Marques's claims. On this occasion, he also attacks, by imputation, the Board of Imago Mundi Ltd, which I chair. A number of you will have submitted abstracts for the next conference, the 19th, to be held in Madrid next July. As you wait to learn the decision of the selection committee (due in December) you need to be reassured that judgements will be made solely in terms of the academic contribution that your paper or poster would make to the conference. The committee will be particularly concerned that the research is both original and being presented for the first time. As has now been the custom for several conferences, the committee is made up of individuals of appropriate standing in the host country and at least two external Directors of Imago Mundi. Since the Directors take it in turns to serve, and the local selectors by definition serve only once, each committee is entirely different. It is not, therefore, possible for any individual to be consistently favoured or disadvantaged - even if anybody wished to do that. Dr Marques has chosen to reveal that the abstract he submitted for the Lisbon conference was among a number that were rejected. Such information is treated as confidential by the ICHC selection committees. It would not be appropriate to publicise the strictly academic reasons for that rejection by each member of the international selection committee for the Lisbon conference. Dr Marques's recent message also contains the following:- "the big money which gives the Portuguese Commemorative Commissars and Members of the Board (including Mr. Tony Campbell) the opportunity and the power to choose and to organize Conferences." Financial inducements or awards play no part in the choice or organisation of the two-yearly conferences. If you read Imago Mundi, or have been a subscriber to MapHist for some time, you will be aware that it is open to any country or city to propose itself as the venue for a future ICHC. The Imago Mundi Board then considers the proposals carefully and chooses between them, bearing in mind which one is likely to be most attractive to the international community. As to the financial organisation of ICHC conferences, the cost of each is met from the conference fee and sponsorship. Imago Mundi Ltd is a non-profit-making charity and has no financial involvement in the conferences. If you have read this far, you may have felt that this explanation was superfluous. I hope that, like me, you will now wish to hear no more of this supposed 'censorship' of Dr Marques and of his ideas in the international world of the history of cartography. I certainly do not intend to comment on this matter again on MapHist, although I am, of course, happy to discuss issues relating to the conferences in general. We actively seek feed-back during and after each conference, which is then passed on to the organisers of the next one. Finally, the book Dr Marques refers to is certainly present in the British Library and can be found there via our web catalogue. So, of course, is the issue of 'The Globe', containing his Fra Mauro article. And, on a personal level, I am happy to include his valuable bibliography of discovery literature on the 'Map History' site. I hope Dr Marques will, in future, feel able to concentrate on adding to his already impressive scholarly output. ******************************************************************** tony.campbell@bl.uk Tony Campbell, Chairman of Imago Mundi Ltd Map Librarian British Library Map Library ******************************************************************** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Oct 11 04:13:14 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9B2DEr10598 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 04:13:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9B1tGt25349; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:55:16 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9B1sgu24829 for discovery-list; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:54:42 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9B1saK24825 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:54:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ssmtp01.melange.isp (smtp.arrakis.es [212.59.199.83]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9B1sZN02177 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:54:35 +0200 (MDT) Received: from hola ([212.59.206.230]) by ssmtp01.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id G28T4P05.K3K for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:50:49 +0200 Message-ID: <000801c03325$58852060$e6ce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: [EXP] greenland Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:48:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO What do you think of a possible exploration, meticulous explotation, by the Portuguese men, to the sw coast of Greenland before 1550 ? do you know the Teixeira map? j. anaya From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Oct 11 04:27:46 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9B2Rjr11246 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 04:27:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9B28DN02979; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 04:08:13 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9B27u424910 for discovery-list; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 04:07:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9B27oK24906 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 04:07:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9B27nt25676 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 04:07:49 +0200 (MDT) Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id l.27.bf6e980 (5775) for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:07:17 -0400 (EDT) From: ExJournal@aol.com Message-ID: <27.bf6e980.27152555@aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:07:17 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] Content of a paper in a conference To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 66 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Richard - Hear, Hear ! Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 12 03:45:29 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C1jSr21160 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 03:45:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C1LAN05294; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 03:21:10 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9C1Hbq06069 for discovery-list; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 03:17:37 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C1HUK06065 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 03:17:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt (fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.203]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C1HTt01830 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 03:17:29 +0200 (MDT) Received: from [194.65.202.37] by fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20001012012202.FHIL25805.fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.202.37]> for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 02:22:02 +0100 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 02:23:52 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P. Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] Mr. T. Campbell's answer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by svin12.win.tue.nl id e9C1HVK06066 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO After being away for several days -- far from my Macintosh and my e-mail box -- I came back, and I found it. After all it seems that my former friend Mr. T. Campbell still knows who I am, remembers my name, and is now trying to give some kind of 'answer'... All answers deserve to be answered. Let's do it. > Each message, however, has contained a very similar > attack on myself, relating to the 17th International Conference on > the History of Cartography (Lisbon, 1997). Yes. And everybody knows why. > The personal insults I am happy to leave to others to deal with, even > if, as in this case, my 'silence' has been unjustifiably presented as > endorsement of Dr Marques's claims. Nobody has insulted Mr. T. Campbell. Only some truths were made public. And they were made public a long time ago (since the facts took place, in 1997). Mr. Campbell is not a victim (and should not try to portray himself as one). Mr. Campbell is (or was, for many years...) a member of the 'Comissao Cientifica Internacional' (International Advisory Board) of the 'Comissao Nacional para as Comemoracoes dos Descobrimentos Portugueses' (National Commission for the Commemoration of the Portuguese Discoveries). It was I, many years ago (in 1988), who suggested his name for that position. > On this occasion, he also > attacks, by imputation, the Board of Imago Mundi Ltd, which I chair. I do not attack anybody. I only defend myself and my freedom of scientific research and scientific publishing. I do not know how many members of that Board of Imago Mundi Ltd will be willing to collaborate with Mr. T. Campbell and his Portuguese friend and associate Dr. Inacio Guerreiro (together with the Portuguese 'Commemorativists') in perpetrating things such as the one which is being carried out against me for so many years now. My work (in scientific terms) and my independence and fairness (in political and ideological terms) speak for themselves (as I have always been someone totally unconnected with any kind whatsoever of political liaisons). The scientific works and the political status of Mr. Campbell's associated Commissars in Portugal (such as the Commissar Vasco Graça Moura, who prepared in 1994-1996 my exclusion from the 17th ICHC, and the Commissar J. Romero de Magalhaes, who in 1997 executed it) also speak for themselves... They both have produced zero (0) work in relation to researching and publishing on mapmaking... and they both have very active political careers going on... (with party appointments in relation to political and administrative positions... each one of them inside each one of the two different political parties which have in succession governed Portugal...). As far as Mr. Campbell's nowadays friend Dr. Inacio Guerreiro is concerned, his scientific work, in comparison to mine, also speaks for itself (but it was him together with Mr. Campbell and the political Commissars the ones who organized the Lisbon 17th ICHC... and it was me the one who was kept out of it...). The most amusing thing is to let Mr. Campbell speak for himself, with his own words -- written some years ago... -- on these comparisons between Portuguese scientific works on the field of the History of Cartography... Let's quote: "(...) Printed in high quality colour on imitation vellum, with every irregularity faithfully reproduced, its size and clarity enable each name to be read. Despite this, the author's transcription of the 1500 coastal names is still welcome. Although much of the discussion leans on earlier commentators, particularly Alfredo Pinheiro Marques in the second edition of 'Portugaliae Monumenta Cartographica' (...)". CAMPBELL, Tony, "A Carta Náutica de Jorge de Aguiar de 1492 [The Nautical Chart of Jorge de Aguiar, 1492] by Inácio Guerreiro (Review)", Imago Mundi, London, 1993, vol. 45, p.151. Amusing, isn't it? > A number of you will have submitted abstracts for the next conference, > the 19th, to be held in Madrid next July. As you wait to learn the > decision of the selection committee (due in December) you need to be > reassured that judgements will be made solely in terms of the academic > contribution that your paper or poster would make to the conference. Yes, but who was judging in the past, and who will be judging in the future? Will Mr. Campbell or some of his friends be judging in the future? > As has now been the > custom for several conferences, the committee is made up of > individuals of appropriate standing in the host country In the cases of other countries organizing past or present editions of the ICHC, I hope that it can be true. But in the case of the 17th ICHC (Lisbon, 1997), from which I was excluded, this detail about "(...) individuals of appropriate standing in the host country (...)" is very very funny... It's the funniest part... Everybody saw... > Dr Marques has chosen to reveal that the abstract he submitted for the > Lisbon conference was among a number that were rejected. Such > information is treated as confidential by the ICHC selection > committees. It would not be appropriate to publicise the strictly > academic reasons for that rejection by each member of the > international selection committee for the Lisbon conference. Yes. And at that time, for several years then (since 1994), I had also chosen to reveal the fact that I was being censored and persecuted in my own country, and silenced and robbed by a Portuguese state Commission, and prevented from divulging my theory debunking Prince Henry's myths and changing the History of Portugal. In a situation like this, nothing can be, or should be, treated as "(...) confidential (...)" -- as Mr. T. Campbell now says, in such a subtle way... The first thing that should have been made public was the identity of these members. Could it be that some (or many, or all) of these members of the international selection committee for the Lisbon 1997 conference were, at the same time, members of (or intellectuals sponsored by) that same Portuguese Commission which had practised censorship, theft, etc., against me...? The second thing that should have been made public was the "(...) strictly academic reasons for that rejection (...)". Very funny, very subtle... > Dr Marques's recent message also contains the following:- > > "the big money which gives the Portuguese Commemorative Commissars and > Members of the Board (including Mr. Tony Campbell) the opportunity and > the power to choose and to organize Conferences." > > Financial inducements or awards play no part in the choice or > organisation of the two-yearly conferences. If you read Imago Mundi, or > have been a subscriber to MapHist for some time, you will be aware that > it is open to any country or city to propose itself as the venue for a > future ICHC. The Imago Mundi Board then considers the proposals > carefully and chooses between them, bearing in mind which one is likely > to be most attractive to the international community. > > As to the financial organisation of ICHC conferences, the cost of each > is met from the conference fee and sponsorship. Everybody knows that big conferences are organized with big money. That does not mean that it will be used privately by the organizers. It means exactly what has been written: these big conferences give their organizers the power to choose and to present themselves as big scholars and influential people in the milieu. Reputed institutions, such as the late International Society for the History of Cartography (and its newborn Imago Mundi Inc.?), and technically competent scholars such as Mr. T. Campbell, should have had the dignity of keeping themselves independent and fair, not compromising with big local interests, institutions, and known censorships. Everybody knows that the 'Comissao Nacional para as Comemoracoes dos Descobrimentos Portugueses' (National Commission for the Commemoration of the Portuguese Discoveries) has big money. It's in the papers. For the year 2000 it has 3,2 millions of Portuguese 'Contos' (3.200.000.000 Escudos). That is almost fourteen (14) million American dollars... (and similar amounts of millions of dollars have been spent, year after year, for more than twelve years, since 1987, in Commemorations of some kind of a mythical Imperial Past, state Commemorations organized by one of the poorest countrys in Europe... with ten percent of its population totally illiterate, and sixty or seventy percent semi-illiterate...). Everybody knows that the 'Descobrimentos' Commission has big money. How much did this Commission have in 1997? How much did it spend in sponsorship and organizing costs for the 17th ICHC? I don't know exactly. I only know that I was censored and excluded from that Conference in the same way as I was censored and excluded from all other Conferences organized or co-organized by that Portuguese Commission... > If you have read this far, you may have felt that this explanation was > superfluous. I hope that, like me, you will now wish to hear no more of > this supposed 'censorship' of Dr Marques and of his ideas in the > international world of the history of cartography. Yes. In fact all these explanations are superfluous and take up precious time from all of us. Time which should have been used more usefully if we could have been able to do research and publishing on history and mapmaking themes. But, sometimes, we are prevented from researching and publishing on history and mapmaking themes, by censors. Mr. T. Campbell, my former friend whose name I suggested in 1988 for the Portuguese 'Commission' (and in 1997 helped that same Commission to exclude me), is now saying that he (...) will now wish to hear no more of this supposed 'censorship' of Dr Marques and of his ideas in the international world of the history of cartography (...). It is wishful thinking... I too am curious to know what the future will say -- what people will say, and write, and openly discuss... and what people will silence and censor... (and, in certain subtle ways, some will eventually try to plagiarize in some lateral aspects, as a better way of trying to make such a global theory and its author disappear...). I too am curious to know what the future will say about all of this, about the true history of Portugal and the 15th-16th century Portuguese geographical discoveries, and their relationship with the Fra Mauro map. I too am curious to know what the future will say about the true originator of Portugal's navigations and geographical discoveries. Was it the learned and travelled and progressive Prince Peter, Duke of Coimbra (and Marcgraf of Treviso in Italy, near Venice), or was it his insignificant and conservative younger brother Prince Henry, whose fame (by means of countless childish myths and legends, due to political reasons...) was to be built 'a posteriori' (post-1449, and most of all in the 16th-17th centuries, etc.), after he participated in the 1449 battle of Alfarrobeira, therefore helping to kill his older brother whom he had betrayed...? I too am curious about the Future, and have some wishes (maybe following Prince Pedro's 'motto' in the 15th century... which was 'Desir' [Desire] and can still nowadays be read in his Gothic tomb...). I believe truth will prevail in the end (only truth can liberate us), and I believe no censorship -- even the kind of censorship practised in a country like Portugal for centuries - will prevent that from happening. This belief of mine is called History -- or, in its Greek word, 'historia' (which means 'research', 'investigation',' search for the truth', 'free thinking'). > I certainly do not > intend to comment on this matter again on MapHist, Neither do I. For me it is a problem solved. I solved it, when I denounced the censorship, in 1997. All this was told, for the future (or for the next censorships...), in my book 'Para o Silêncio da História: Carta ao Primeiro-Ministro do meu País, sobre a Censura e a Mentira na História de Portugal' [For the Silence of History: a Letter to the Prime-Minister of my Country about Censorship and Deceit in the History of Portugal (1999, ISBN 972-9719322). Unfortunately some of its pages (and some of its facsimiled documents) had to be dedicated to Mr. T. Campbell's sad intervention in these problems among the Portuguese. > Finally, the book Dr Marques refers to is certainly present in the >British > Library and can be found there via our web catalogue. So, of course, is > the issue of 'The Globe', containing his Fra Mauro article. And, on a > personal level, I am happy to include his valuable bibliography of > discovery literature on the 'Map History' site. I hope Dr Marques will, > in future, feel able to concentrate on adding to his already impressive > scholarly output. > > tony.campbell@bl.uk Of course my book 'A Maldição da Memória do Infante Dom Pedro e as Origens dos Descobrimentos Portugueses' [The Accursed Heritage of Prince Peter and the Origins of the Portuguese Discoveries] (1995, ISBN 9728289006) is there in the British Library shelf -- and it is also in many other libraries, scholarly centers and researchers shelfs, in Portugal and all over the world. But Mr. Campbell forgot to tell why. It is there because I paid from my own pocket for it to be sent as a gift to Mr. Campbell and the BL -- the same way as I paid for it to be sent to many other researchers, libraries and research centers, in Portugal and all over the world (for instance to Wien, in September 1995, during the 16th ICHC, I had sent more than a dozen copies, destined to my friend Mr. Campbell and to a dozen other people). In fact, I have done more than that... Since the beginning I paid from my own pocket for that book to be published and printed (by a small scientific association founded by myself), and I paid for it to be sent, as a gift (with its 525 pages), to everybody in the milieu (until the 1.500 copies ended). That is how I work, for several years now, in Portugal... I have to publish my own books in author's editions, or disguised author's editions (and I do it proudly, to give a lesson of freedom of speech and freedom of scientific research). That is how I work since my humble person was transformed, from night to day (in 1994-1995), from an 'official', 'famous' and 'reputed' author, into an accursed, damned and nonexistent author. My books were never again published or republished by the Portuguese National Press-State Mint and similar institutions (only one of these books, my 'Portuguese Cartography of Japan', a project delivered 1992 and scheduled for 1993, ended up being released after all, in 1996, so that its enormous graphic costs would not be totally lost...). This is how I work nowadays, in my own country. I pay, from my own pocket, to be able to work. Instead of being paid for, I myself pay to research and publish my books. Mr. T. Campbell says now that my Bibliography of the Discoveries is 'valuable' and he even included it in the links of his Internet page. He is being very kind and fair in showing such a public appeciation, similar to many others which were made by different people. But does he cares to know how I made it, in several years of hard work? I made it almost alone, with the help of a small group of friends and with some support from the Portuguese Mail and Telecom, and it never received one single dime from the Portuguese "Descobrimentos' Commission... the same Commission which was receiving and spending millions of dollars of public money, year after year... (and, even more amusing... the same Commission which in 1990 had that project of my computerized bibliography publicized, in the most prominent Portuguese weekly newspaper, as one of its main projects and one of the reasons for the Commission itself to exist...). Now, Mr. T. Campbell -- for many years a member of the International Advisory Board of the Portuguese Commission (and organizer of the Lisbon 17th ICHC) -- says that my Bibliography of the Discoveries is 'valuable'? Well... there is no other one...! The Commission, with all his millions, during so many years, didn't do it...! So, I have done it. It is done now. Mr. Campbell's public appreciations are now being made in MapHist and in Discovery, and he wants to show himself as being fair and balanced. He is doing right. I have been doing the same, since the beginning. I always maintained (and I will always continue to maintain), what I wrote about him many years ago: I considered him a competent researcher and librarian (and I even quoted him, and adopted one of his solid opinions, for the purpose of demonstrating some aspects of my theory of the Fra Mauro map as being ordered by Prince Peter and its dating as being c.1448, and not 1459...!). And, most of all, until 1997 I considered him a friend, and I trusted him. I think that Mr. T. Campbell's good contributions of the past -- such as his fine article on portolan-charts for vol. I of 'The History of Cartography' -- were making him one of the leading experts on the subject. I can only regret that, apparently, instead of being a brilliant researcher, he prefered to be an organizer, and a Commissar among Commissars. Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 Fax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras Fax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL Visit the Bibliography of the Discoveries at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* DESIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 12 04:50:50 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C2oor23660 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:50:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C2RZt03451; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:27:35 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9C2PYc06439 for discovery-list; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:25:34 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C2PSK06435 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:25:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo-r14.mail.aol.com (imo-r14.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C2PRt03399 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:25:27 +0200 (MDT) Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo-r14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id l.30.b495399 (3945) for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:24:52 -0400 (EDT) From: ExJournal@aol.com Message-ID: <30.b495399.27167af3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:24:51 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] greenland To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 66 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr I'm not sure of your chain of proof, but someone, identity not presently known, mapped most of the north coast of North America prior to its putative discovery during the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Most of the 16th century maps show the MacKenzie and Hudson Bay. No one that we know of had been there. Does this not raise some rather serious questions? Petrus Plancius left us several maps including these regions dating to the last decade of the 16th century, which were based on the legitimately licensed works of one Portugese, Alberto Lasso, dating to the 1560s. The next question is where did Lasso get his work? The surviving material looks a whole lot like the Gerritsz map of allegedly 1612. The entire Hudson/United Dutch East India Company/Muscovy Company/Gentleman Adventurers set of embroglii(?) begar the imagination. This is a set of official disinformation at the highest levels, and should not be taken at face value. Just what did transpire is what us maphisters should be properly investigating. Regards, Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 12 05:03:37 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C33br24849 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:03:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C2pnt04175; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:51:50 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9C2oEZ06637 for discovery-list; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:50:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C2o7K06630 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:50:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail2.superonline.com (eposta.superonline.com [212.252.115.4]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C2o0N07037 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:50:01 +0200 (MDT) Received: from paradise ([212.253.61.42]) by mail2.superonline.com (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license b57b027258fcf2f5fbd6d9578804567c) with SMTP id <20001012025603.EIXQ19025.mail2@paradise> for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:56:03 +0300 Message-ID: <003a01c033f7$4171a740$2a3dfdd4@paradise> From: "Dr. Metin Bosnak" To: References: <30.b495399.27167af3@aol.com> Subject: [EXP] Job opportunities Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:47:17 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 Disposition-Notification-To: "Dr. Metin Bosnak" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The Department of American Studies at Fatih University, in Istanbul, seeks a tenure-track Assistant Professor or Associate Professor, depending on qualifications, to begin Fall 2000. Candidates must have earned or nearly completed a Ph.D. in American Studies (or American Culture/Civilization), and must have completed significant innovative research indicating mastery of interdisciplinary theory and method. Areas of specialization include but are not limited to documentary, photography, African American studies, Native American studies, film, literary studies, music, and cyberculture. Evidence of teaching ability or potential is required. Candidates should be prepared to teach a one-semester introduction to American Studies, either half of a two-semester cultural history survey, and undergraduate and graduate courses in specialized areas. Other duties include ongoing research in areas of specialization and service to the department and the university. Send application letter, CV, samples of three publications, and three letters of recommendation, before the end of October, to the following address: Metin BOSNAK, Ph.D. Department of AMERICAN STUDIES Fatih University, Hadimköy Yolu Üzeri Akçaburgaz Mevkii, 34900 Büyükçekmece/Istanbul TURKEY Fax: 00 90 212 889 0832 Phone (Office): 00 90 212 889 08 15 /1042 Mobile Phone: 0 532 546 40 76 Email: mbosnak@fatih.edu.tr metinbosnak@superonline.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 5:24 AM Subject: Re: [EXP] greenland > I'm not sure of your chain of proof, but someone, identity not presently > known, mapped most of the north coast of North America prior to its putative > discovery during the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Most of the 16th century > maps show the MacKenzie and Hudson Bay. No one that we know of had been > there. Does this not raise some rather serious questions? > > Petrus Plancius left us several maps including these regions dating to the > last decade of the 16th century, which were based on the legitimately > licensed works of one Portugese, Alberto Lasso, dating to the 1560s. The next > question is where did Lasso get his work? The surviving material looks a > whole lot like the Gerritsz map of allegedly 1612. The entire Hudson/United > Dutch East India Company/Muscovy Company/Gentleman Adventurers set of > embroglii(?) begar the imagination. This is a set of official disinformation > at the highest levels, and should not be taken at face value. Just what did > transpire is what us maphisters should be properly investigating. Regards, > Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 12 09:20:54 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C7Krr04222 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:20:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C7DjN15073; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:13:45 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9C7DB907983 for discovery-list; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:13:11 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C7D3K07968 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:13:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hotmail.com (f212.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.212]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C7D1t12654 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:13:02 +0200 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:12:55 -0700 Received: from 207.109.22.73 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:12:55 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.109.22.73] From: "michael zalar" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] greenland Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:12:55 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2000 07:12:55.0793 (UTC) FILETIME=[D7EF7610:01C0341B] Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >I'm not sure of your chain of proof, but someone, identity not presently >known, mapped most of the north coast of North America prior to its >putative >discovery during the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Most of the 16th >century >maps show the MacKenzie and Hudson Bay. No one that we know of had been >there. Does this not raise some rather serious questions? > If I may come at this from a rather different angle - for several years I have been researching an artifact known as the Kensington Runestone. For a variety of reasons (see http://www.geocities.com/thetropics/island/3634/index2.html )I believe this to be a genuine artifact left by a Norse exploration party in Minnesota in 1362. +IF+ this is genuine, it may clear up some of the mystery surrounding the Hudson Bay cartography. In the late 13th through mid 14th centuries Sweden was expansionistic - it gained Finland in 1287, formed a union with Norway in 1316, purchased Skane, and undertook recongnized Crusades against Russia until halted by the Black Death circa 1350. Is it possible that the kings attention then turned west instead of east? Portugal was certainly making explorations into the Atlantic at this time, but K Magnus already had a base there. It is possible that the King heard reports of the Great Khan owning white falcons, and white falcons were also an export of Greenland. Possibly he put two and two together and figured that Greenland may lay somewhere near the coast of Cathay. At any rate in 1354 Magnus comissioned Paul Knutsson to hand pick a company of men and take the Royal knorr to Greenland, to preserve Christianity there. However, historians, even before the Kensington stone was found in 1898 suggested the expedition might also have a goal of exploring westward from Greenland. We do not know with certainty that this expedition actually set sail, but in 1364 we do know that Ivar Bardson, a priest who had been stationed in Greenland, returned to Bergen in the company of 8 men. This was reported by a Jacobus Cnoyen, who further said that a Minorite (Franciscan) from Oxford who had an astrolabe who "journeyed further thorough the whole of the North etc, and put into writing all the wonders of those Islands, and gave the King of England this book, which he called in Latin Inventio Fortunatae, whch book began at... latitude 54, continuing to the Pole" . It is reasonable to assume that these expeditions were one in the same, and indeed was the expedition which resulted in the Kensington stone. Most important from the above, we know have an account the the expediton, the Inventio Fortunatae. Although lost, we know that this book exsisted. Both Columbus and Capt George Beste (of Frobishier's expedition) refer specifically to the book. Further, Kirsten Seaver suggests, based on archeological evidence which corresponds with Cnoyen's account, that the expediton made it to at least Southern Baffin Island. But Cnoyen also notes that the expeditition went further westwards from this point. Does this necessarily mean that the Inventio was used by cartographers mapping the North? No, though a couple of cartographers have referred to the Inventio as a source of their information on the Arctic. But it certainly must be considered a possibility, to take its place alongside the Portugese and others. Possibly the Inventio was just one source used along with other investigations of the North to provide cartographers with their material. But if such an expedtion as suggested did take place, and the results were available, undoubtably cartographers WOULD have taken note of it. Michael A. Zalar 179 E. Thompson Ave #1 West St. Paul, MN 55118 651-457-8860 m_zalar@hotmail.com www.krs1362.cjb.net >Petrus Plancius left us several maps including these regions dating to the >last decade of the 16th century, which were based on the legitimately >licensed works of one Portugese, Alberto Lasso, dating to the 1560s. The >next >question is where did Lasso get his work? The surviving material looks a >whole lot like the Gerritsz map of allegedly 1612. The entire >Hudson/United >Dutch East India Company/Muscovy Company/Gentleman Adventurers set of >embroglii(?) begar the imagination. This is a set of official >disinformation >at the highest levels, and should not be taken at face value. Just what did >transpire is what us maphisters should be properly investigating. Regards, >Carl Schuster _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 12 11:04:45 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C94ir10104 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:04:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C8s5N25108; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:54:05 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9C8rcj09033 for discovery-list; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:53:38 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C8rRK09021 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:53:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (wsinfm15.win.tue.nl [131.155.69.168]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9C8rQN24951 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:53:26 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from engels@localhost) by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9C8rQ602021 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:53:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andre Engels Message-Id: <200010120853.e9C8rQ602021@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] greenland In-Reply-To: <30.b495399.27167af3@aol.com> from "ExJournal@aol.com" at "Oct 11, 2000 10:24:51 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:53:26 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ExJournal@aol.com wrote: > I'm not sure of your chain of proof, but someone, identity not presently > known, mapped most of the north coast of North America prior to its putative > discovery during the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Most of the 16th century > maps show the MacKenzie and Hudson Bay. No one that we know of had been > there. Does this not raise some rather serious questions? Not to me. The depiction of Hudson Bay seems likely to come from information which Cartier gathered from the Hurons - information which probably was about the Great Lakes, but may have been of Hudson Bay itself. That the Mackenzie finds a depiction is to me a case of "likely coincidence" - map makers of those times preferred to just fill in unknown territories with some coastlines, mountain ranges and rivers rather than to leave them white. And if one puts a river in that region, the chance of it being identifiable to modern readers as 'the Mackenzie' is rather high (basically, any positioning of the river as flowing to the north will do). Furthermore, how do you imagine they WOULD have discovered the Mackenzie in this period of time? Given the great difficulties that early nineteenth century expeditions had to navigate the region of the Canadian islands, with much better ships than were available in the sixteenth, I cannot imagine any sixteenth century expedition reaching the Mackenzie and either returning or completing the northwest passage. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all -- Noam Chomsky From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Oct 14 15:46:47 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9EDkkr10025 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:46:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9EDZgt25762; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:35:42 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9EDYPw02156 for discovery-list; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:34:25 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9EDYIK02152 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:34:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com (imo-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.39]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9EDYIN09097 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:34:18 +0200 (MDT) Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.31.) id l.7a.b65a6fa (4386) for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:34:02 -0400 (EDT) From: ExJournal@aol.com Message-ID: <7a.b65a6fa.2719baca@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:34:02 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] greenland To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 66 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The chain of evidence is only that of common sense. People who were actualy making and using maps did not "invent" things for fun; misplace yes, invent or play, no. The corpus of sixteenth century maps uniformly show knowledge of the north coast of North America that had not yet been acquired through known channels. This leaves either *INFORMED* guessing, or some body of information not yet uncovered. It may not have been graphical, since as we know, Reuters were the dominant form of recording maritime material, particularly in the Mediterranean and Portuguese sources. Two further pieces of evidence suggest, but do not yet prove the hypothesis. The first is that a careful analysis of deChamplain's work shows a knowledge of Hudson Bay, which he neither explored nor had access to sources, (he ws contemporaneous with Hudson) which is a rather precise description of the present 500 foot contour. The elevation has not pertained for many more years than th e 13 - 14th century. A *GUESS* gives a date of ca. 500BCE. There is no question within the geophysical community of either the magnitude of the change in Relative Sea Level, nor in its ROUGH dating. The RSL has dropped by ca. 300 meters since the departure of the last glacier about, locally, 6 - 8 K years ago. Within the same time frame, there have occured climatic variations which have placed the tree line up on Baffin Island. It was certainly a lot warmer ca. 500 BCE than presently, within this region. An additional thought piece/evidentiary item is the observation that Sebastian Munster is known to us primarily as a cartographer, but in reality was heavily involved with the Calvinist movement and an early epigrapher, best known for leaving the first triligual concordance of ancient Hebre, Greek, Latin. His 1534 Geography illustrates both North and South America and the North Coast, Hundson Bay and the Northwest Passage, labelled as the way to get to the Moluccas. ("discovered" by the Portuguese in 1515)Seems he published a number of works on early semitic language grammars. Within the Roman Church, there had been a movement to study these topics dating back to the 12th century, but apparently it took a couple of hundred years , for anyone to actually do something about it. Hope this helps. Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Oct 14 16:08:31 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9EE8Ur11403 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 16:08:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9EDrrN09643; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:53:54 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9EDrWs02269 for discovery-list; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:53:32 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9EDrQK02265 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:53:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9EDrPN09623 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:53:25 +0200 (MDT) Received: from default.gamewood.net (bhmx0146.pubip.gamewood.net [208.30.87.61]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04320 for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:53:20 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001014095423.00a9be70@pop.gamewood.net> X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:57:02 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [EXP] greenland In-Reply-To: <7a.b65a6fa.2719baca@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO As I understand it, Munster was actually a Judaica scholar and Hebrew professor, but like so many conflicted with regard to religion, he supposedly had a brief stint as a monk. At any rate, a slightly later version of the map in question seems to appear online at: http://www.lib.virginia.edu/exhibits/lewis_clark/ch1-2.html Joel Kovarsky >An additional thought piece/evidentiary item is the observation that >Sebastian Munster is known to us primarily as a cartographer, but in reality >was heavily involved with the Calvinist movement and an early epigrapher, >best known for leaving the first triligual concordance of ancient Hebre, >Greek, Latin. His 1534 Geography illustrates both North and South America >and the North Coast, Hundson Bay and the Northwest Passage, labelled as the >way to get to the Moluccas. ("discovered" by the Portuguese in 1515)Seems he >published a number of works on early semitic language grammars. Within the >Roman Church, there had been a movement to study these topics dating back to >the 12th century, but apparently it took a couple of hundred years , for >anyone to actually do something about it. Hope this helps. Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Oct 15 23:47:02 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9FLl1r24014 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2000 23:47:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9FLajN18709; Sun, 15 Oct 2000 23:36:45 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9FLZne09594 for discovery-list; Sun, 15 Oct 2000 23:35:49 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9FLZgK09589 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2000 23:35:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9FLZft13418 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2000 23:35:42 +0200 (MDT) Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.31.) id l.21.22e200a (17228) for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2000 17:35:31 -0400 (EDT) From: ExJournal@aol.com Message-ID: <21.22e200a.271b7d23@aol.com> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 17:35:31 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] greenland To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 66 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Who wrote anything about the 16th and 17th centuries? That's when the maps were published, but not in my estimation, the date of the data incorporated therein. A once over lightly understanding of the geophysics, climatology and glaciology of the region would help. The method of the transmission of data is still obscure. Could it be that these maps were derived from textual rather than graphical sources? The folks who did the early stuff were more competent in ancient language than in cartography. I refer specifically to Sebastian Munster. Plancius licensed material from Portugal, dating to half a century befor his time. No Portuguese were known to have been in Hudson Bay at that time, but the Gerritsz 1612 of the region looks very much the same animal as Lasso. The Hudson Bay segment no longer exists, but the Lasso 1564 New Foundland/Labrador section does. I take issue with your blanket assertion that early cartographers filled"empty spaces" for artistic, rather than informational reasons. There are many 16th and 17th century examples where the cartographer left a shoreline "open" when insufficiant or contradictory information was presented. They were trying to make sense out of sources that were without common scale, common orientation, or any chain of evidentiary paternity. They got it wrong, frequently, but not for want ot trying. Take a close look at the deChamplain 1612/10 Nouvelle Francia. Hudson Bay looks nothing like the present shoreline of the Bay. It is, however, a magnificent outline of the present 500 foot contour, replete with every river, headland and embayment that is found presently at that elevation at he correct latitude, for 75% of the circumference of the Bay. The remaining 25% represents an unacknowledged scale change. Correct for the change, and even that part works. Regards, Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Oct 16 13:23:11 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9GBNBr07938 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:23:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9GBAit29291; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:10:52 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9GB6qA15331 for discovery-list; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:06:52 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9GB6lK15327 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:06:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9GB6kN00158 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:06:46 +0200 (MDT) Received: from h8f5f4 (unknown [62.4.182.160]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with SMTP id 75F259B3A for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:06:45 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <004901c03761$0fa682e0$a0b6043e@h8f5f4> From: "Johan Deckers" To: "discoverylist" Subject: [EXP] Fw: ostend india company Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:05:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO for a study about the ostend india company, i'm looking for two articles from the mariner's mirror. maybe somewhere out there, there's some one with the right issues. nr 59 p. 291-298 An Ostend East Indiaman nr 73 p. 123-138 Thet Ostend Trade to Moka and India I'm prepared to buy the issue or pay for the copys. Thanks Johan Deckers From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Oct 17 10:17:04 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9H8H3r10552 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:17:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9H80kN28194; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:00:46 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9H803a24795 for discovery-list; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:00:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9H7xrK24787 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:59:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from exchange.rgs.org (exchange.rgs.org [212.219.1.5]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9H7xrt10902 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:59:53 +0200 (MDT) Received: by exchange.rgs.org with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:57:09 +0100 Message-ID: From: Francis Herbert To: "'maphist@camail1.harvard.edu'" , maphist , discoverylist , Captain Cook discussilijst Subject: [EXP] RE: ostend india company Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:56:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Johan Deckers, The Library of this Society holds 'The Mariner's Mirror' and I can xerox the two articles you require. I shall first check the pagination, then estimate the costs of copying and postage, and will contact you direct with total in order to obtain your agreement before proceeding. If you wish to purchase the original old issues, that, too, may be possible - but not from here. By the way, I assume you are referring to the Verenigte Ostindische Compagnie ([United] East India Company) and not to the Ostend India Company? Yours sincerely Francis Herbert (Curator of Maps, RGS-IBG) f.herbert@rgs.org http://www.rgs.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Johan Deckers [SMTP:johan.deckers@skynet.be] > Sent: 15 October 2000 21:14 > To: maphist; discoverylist; Captain Cook discussilijst > Subject: Fw: ostend india company > > > > > for a study about the ostend india company, i'm looking for two articles > > from the mariner's mirror. maybe somewhere out there, there's some one > with > > the right issues. > > nr 59 p. 291-298 An Ostend East Indiaman > > nr 73 p. 123-138 Thet Ostend Trade to Moka and India > > > > I'm prepared to buy the issue or pay for the copys. > > Thanks > > > > Johan Deckers > > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Oct 17 11:57:23 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9H9vNr16222 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:57:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9H9Hut20868; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:17:56 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9H9HJ325887 for discovery-list; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:17:19 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9H9HDK25883 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:17:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (wsinfm15.win.tue.nl [131.155.69.168]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9H9HCN07514 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:17:12 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from engels@localhost) by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9H9HBw02161 for discovery; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:17:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andre Engels Message-Id: <200010170917.e9H9HBw02161@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] RE: ostend india company To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:17:11 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O This message was originally refused by Majordomo because it was sent from a non-subscribed address. The address has now been added to the list of allowed posters. Please, if you have an address other than the one you are subscribed under, from which you want to be able to post to the list, notify me, so I can add it to the list of 'allowed addresses'. Your list manager, Andre Engels ----- Forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- --- Francis Herbert wrote: > Verenigte Ostindische Compagnie ([United] East India > Company) and not to the Ostend India Company? I started to become curious, since I didn't know there was also a company in Ostend, (present Belgium) but the VOC is called de Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie. ===== ------------ Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/index2.htm and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----- End of forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all -- Noam Chomsky From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Oct 17 13:58:41 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9HBwer24052 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:58:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9HBodN26683; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:50:44 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9HBnRg27791 for discovery-list; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:49:27 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9HBnKK27787 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:49:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9HBnJN26501 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:49:19 +0200 (MDT) Received: from h8f5f4 (unknown [62.4.182.160]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with SMTP id 0521218C3A; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:49:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <001101c03830$224e0ce0$a0b6043e@h8f5f4> From: "Johan Deckers" To: "maphist" , "discoverylist" , "Captain Cook discussilijst" Subject: [EXP] ostend india company Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:48:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Probably, few people know that there existed an ostend india company. After the separation of the Netherlands, any trade oversea was forbidden for the Southern-Netherlands. (Treaty of Münster 1648) Despite that threaty and with the permission of the Austrian Emperor Charles VI (who ruled at that time the S-Netherlans), some merchants did send ships to India en China. They traded tea, silk en textile. Like the Dutch Indian Company (VOC), Charles VI gave them the permit in 1722 to found the "Generale Keijserlijcke Indische Company" GIC, also known as the ostend india company. (Ostend was the harbour). De company was very succesfull, it founded a colony in Banquibazaar on the Coromandel Coast in India en traded also with Canton (China) During the period 1724-1727 they were responsible for almost 60% of the import of thea for Western-Europe. De Dutch an the English East India Companies weren't so happy with it, so when Charles VI in 1727 needed support to arrange the succession by his daughter Maria-Teresia, he had to accept a suspension of the GIC for 7 years. The Treaty of Vienna in 1731 was the definitive ending of the GICand the prosperous times in the land. It isn't easy to find some information about the GIC, due to the bombing of Ostend, all archives were lost. Antwerp has some archives, because the administration of the GIC was held there. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Oct 18 05:33:11 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9I3XBr12933 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2000 05:33:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9I3NGN23117; Wed, 18 Oct 2000 05:23:16 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9I3MYp05377 for discovery-list; Wed, 18 Oct 2000 05:22:34 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9I3MSK05373 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2000 05:22:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from uno.bcn.net (IDENT:postfix@uno.bcn.net [209.213.0.60]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9I3MRN23101 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2000 05:22:27 +0200 (MDT) Received: from bcn.net (max-1-psf-92.bcn.net [208.238.84.92]) by uno.bcn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579DC31AA for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:15:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <39ED150C.E02B975@bcn.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:12:12 -0400 From: Overlee Farm Books X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Catalogue Availability Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Overlee Farm Books announces that Catalogue 42 listing almost 750 titles on discovery, exploration, nautical, maritime and, above all, cartographic reference works, books about maps, and atlases is at the printers and will be available on request. Please write to Box 1155 - Stockbridge, MA 01262, telephone 413-637-2277, or e-mail: overlee@bcn.net. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 19 19:00:41 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9JH0fr08918 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:00:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9JGj3t15218; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:45:03 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9JGex925884 for discovery-list; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:40:59 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9JGeqK25880 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:40:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9JGepN18250 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:40:52 +0200 (MDT) Received: from 207-172-49-63.s63.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.49.63] helo=sanderva) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 3.15 #2) id 13mIkL-0000yQ-00 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:40:49 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.20001019124300.006ca1e8@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: sanderva/pop.erols.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) -- [Cornell Modified] Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:43:00 -0400 To: From: Jeanne & Tom Sander Subject: [EXP] Waldseemuller Map in the News Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Following is an article that appears on page C1 of the October 19, 2000 issue of the Washington Post. To view the entire article, go to http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36210-2000Oct18.html The Chart That Put America on the Map By Linton Weeks, Washington Post Staff Writer The Library of Congress is scrambling to raise $14 million to buy the crown jewel of New World cartography--the Martin Waldseemuller map of 1507--from a German prince. The map, says John Hebert, chief of the library's geography and map division, "represents the very first symbolization of America in any kind of medium. It also represents the first document that truly understands, at least from a European perspective, the way the world is constructed." The purchase would also include a rare sea chart and other maps. The Waldseemuller map is the earliest document known to contain the word "America." And it is the first map to feature two major oceans, not just one. "To the best of my knowledge," says Winston Tabb, associate librarian for library services, "this would be the single largest acquisition in library history." Hidden away for centuries in the family castle of Prince Johannes Waldburg-Wolfegg in southern Germany, the Waldseemuller map reflects the rapidly expanding knowledge of world geography spurred by the explorations of Christopher Columbus, Amerigo Vespucci and others. The prince, who received permission from the German government to sell the document to the library, has set a deadline of Nov. 15 for the $14 million to be raised, although he is not planning to sell the map to anyone else at the moment, Hebert says. Asked about the library's progress in raising the sum, Tabb declined to comment. The Waldseemuller map is, according to a library fact sheet, "America's birth certificate." But it is much more than that. At 8 by 4 1/2 feet, it is a bay window into the ancient mysterious. For map lovers, the lavishly rendered cartography--with its feathery landmass labeled "America"--is a guide to the then-known world and, if read deeply, a CAT scan of the antique mind. Here are the precisely limned lands of Europe; there is Africa, with its coasts labeled in great orderly detail and its interior free, clear, unnamed and unexplored. Made only 15 years after Columbus's first voyage to the New World, the Waldseemuller map is historically significant because "we're dealing with things that are, in essence, cutting-edge. The traditional worldview is changing as the result of Columbus and those who follow," Hebert notes. "This map is a global treasure," says Columbus scholar Peter Dickson. Waldseemuller, a German priest, was commissioned to produce a revised edition of Ptolemy's 2nd-century atlas of the world. The mapmaker was working at a time of explosive exploration, when knowledge of the world was changing faster than his ink could dry. The 1507 map is actually a dozen different wood-block prints pieced together, with South America marked "America" in the general vicinity of Brazil, and an attenuated North America bearing the legend "Terra Ulteri' Incognita." The sections were bound in a book along with a 12-section sea chart from 1516 and "gores" of the globe (the illustrated skins that were stretched over a sphere). The map surfaced in 1901. "There were some efforts made even then by the Library of Congress and others to acquire it," says Hebert. Some 500 copies of the map were made at the time, and the library owns one reproduction. In 1991, the original Waldseemuller map came to Washington as part of a National Gallery exhibit on Columbus. The prince has offered to sell the map to the library for $10 million. The extra $4 million would buy the rare sea chart--known as the Carta Marina and also drawn by Waldseemuller--and two incomplete sets of celestial gores. The Carta Marina, which is also unique, says Hebert, was based on unpublished nautical charts, kept secret by explorers. It is, according to a press release, the first printed nautical chart of the modern world. The borders are decorated and the map is alive with cartouches, festoons and ornate illustrations. There is a drawing of an exotic opossum in South America and a rhinoceros in Africa. The gores contain maps by Johann Schoner, another early cartographer. The library's cartographic collection contains 4.7 million items, including 63,000 atlases and other original material dating back to the mid-14th century. There's one more reason to buy the Waldseemuller map, Hebert says. It's the first wall map. "It's not a small piece--it's 36 square feet. That's right huge." Plus, he adds, "it changed the understanding of the traditional Greek-Latin-Ptolemaic world." Staff writer Don Oldenburg contributed to this report. Copyright 2000. The Washington Post Company. Thomas F. Sander Vice President (Programs) Washington Map Society P.O. Box 10793 Burke, VA 22009-0793 phone (703) 426-2880 fax (703) 426-2881 e-mail sanderva@erols.com Portolan Web Site http://users.supernet.com/pages/jdocktor/portolan.htm Washington Map Society Web Site http://users.supernet.com/pages/jdocktor/washmap.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 19 19:36:14 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9JHaEr10883 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:36:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9JHOLt17377; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:24:21 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9JHMen26156 for discovery-list; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:22:40 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9JHMXK26152 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:22:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9JHMWN20212 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:22:32 +0200 (MDT) Received: from 207-172-49-63.s63.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.49.63] helo=sanderva) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 3.15 #2) id 13mJOg-0000kj-00 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:22:31 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.20001019132441.006d6dac@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: sanderva/pop.erols.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) -- [Cornell Modified] Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:24:41 -0400 To: From: Jeanne & Tom Sander Subject: [EXP] Washington Map Society Meeting - October 26, 2000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The 2000-2001 Program Year started on September 26 with a fascinating examination of the maps of A.J. Johnson, presented by Ira Lourie. The next meeting: On Thursday October 26, 2000 at 7 PM, Mr. David Ingram, Licensed Land Surveyor, will present Survey and Resurvey of the Fairfax Line. In 1649 King Charles started something that continues to this very day. At that time he granted to his friends a parcel of land in Virginia described as "all the land between the Rappahanock and Potomoc Rivers". Approximately 100 years after that, surveys were completed and maps drawn that delineated the extent of this land grant. Now, approximately 350 years after the grant, surveyors are using modern technology to evaluate the work of the surveyors and good old fashioned detective work to try to find the beginning and ending point of the survey. This presentation will offer a historical review of the events, a presentation of several appropriate maps, and a review of recent survey work. Coming meetings and trips: On Saturday November 4, there will be a FIELD TRIP to the Office of Archaeology, City of Alexandria. We will see how the office uses maps in their excavation work in this colonial town on the outskirts of Washington, D.C. The current Portolan (Issue 48 - page 7) has complete details. It is requested that those planning to come RSVP by November 2 to Tom Sander by e-mail, sign-up at the October 26 meeting, mail or phone. On Thursday November 16 at 7 PM, Mr. Jack Dangermond, Environmental Systems Research Institute, Inc [ESRI] will present The Evolution of Geography and GIS: What It Means. On Thursday December 7 at 7 PM, a panel of speakers from the National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA), the successor agency to the Defense Mapping Agency, will present a discussion of NIMA's Role in the Dayton Peace Accords. On Thursday January 11, 2001 at 7 PM, Library of Congress experts Pam van Ee (Specialist in Cartographic History, G&M Division) and Heather Wanser (Senior Paper Conservator in the Library's Conservation Office) will give a team presentation on Conservation and the Individual Map Collector. On Thursday February 15, 2001 at 7 PM, Prof. Harold Brodsky of the University of Maryland will present The Holy Land Map of Avraham bar Yaacov, Amsterdam, 1695. Tue Feb 27 Field Trip to Waverly Auctions - The Antique Map Auction Business Today Thu Mar 22 Pierre Sales - Innovation: Reformatting History and Education (Africa Maps) Thu Apr 19 Field Trip to National Geographic Society - Making the 7th Edition World Atlas ?? May 2001 - Annual Dinner All meetings (except the field trips) will be held at the Reading Room, Geography and Map Division, Library of Congress, Madison Building, Independence Avenue, S.E., Washington D.C. Meetings are open to members and non-members alike, without charge. All are encouraged to attend. For further information, contact Tom Sander, program chairman, at 703-426-2880, or by e-mail at sanderva@erols.com. Thomas F. Sander Vice President (Programs) Washington Map Society P.O. Box 10793 Burke, VA 22009-0793 phone (703) 426-2880 fax (703) 426-2881 e-mail sanderva@erols.com Portolan Web Site http://users.supernet.com/pages/jdocktor/portolan.htm Washington Map Society Web Site http://users.supernet.com/pages/jdocktor/washmap.htm From Andrew.Cook@bl.uk Sat Oct 21 16:35:29 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LEZTr17004 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 16:35:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LEZTt26203 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 16:35:29 +0200 (MDT) Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LEZRK11926 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 16:35:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.bl.uk (mail.bl.uk [194.66.228.57]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e9LEZRt26199 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 16:35:27 +0200 (MDT) Received: FROM mail.bl.uk BY mail.bl.uk ; Sat Oct 21 15:38:54 2000 +0100 Received: from ccMail by mail.bl.uk (IMA Internet Exchange 3.13) id 0022E7A1; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 15:38:54 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 15:34:46 +0100 Message-ID: <0022E7A1.C21394@bl.uk> From: Andrew.Cook@bl.uk (Andrew Cook) Subject: Re: [EXP] RE: ostend india company To: discovery@win.tue.nl, Andre Engels Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Status: ROr Yes, Ostend for the Austrian Netherlands. Besides English (EIC) and Dutch (VOC) East India Companies, there were also French, Danish, and Swedish East India Companies. I'm not sure how many more without checking, but they were probably as effective as the plethora of honorary consuls in Macao in the early nineteenth century, which included Polish, Sardinian, Hanoverian and Genoese representatives. Andrew Cook ----------------------------------------------------------- Dr Andrew S Cook andrew.cook@bl.uk Map Archivist, India Office Records The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB Telephone/Voicemail 020 7412 7828 United Kingdom Fax 020 7412 7641 ----------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [EXP] RE: ostend india company Author: Andre Engels at Internet Date: 17/10/2000 11:17 AM --- Francis Herbert wrote: > Verenigte Ostindische Compagnie ([United] East India > Company) and not to the Ostend India Company? I started to become curious, since I didn't know there was also a company in Ostend, (present Belgium) but the VOC is called de Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie. ===== ------------ Henny (Lee Hae Kang) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Oct 21 19:58:08 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LHw8r24731 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 19:58:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LHoQt01867; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 19:50:26 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9LHnk012738 for discovery-list; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 19:49:46 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LHndK12734 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 19:49:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.84]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LHncN19401 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 19:49:39 +0200 (MDT) Received: from seanet.com ([24.5.126.35]) by femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001021174804.KFNC26644.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@seanet.com> for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:48:04 -0700 Message-ID: <39F1D568.7BC29A64@seanet.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:42:00 -0700 From: "Paul D. Buell" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] RE: ostend india company References: <0022E7A1.C21394@bl.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Good guide to all of this is Dermigny, on the Canton trade. Anyone want the full reference? Andrew Cook wrote: > Yes, Ostend for the Austrian Netherlands. Besides English (EIC) and > Dutch (VOC) East India Companies, there were also French, Danish, and > Swedish East India Companies. I'm not sure how many more without > checking, but they were probably as effective as the plethora of > honorary consuls in Macao in the early nineteenth century, which > included Polish, Sardinian, Hanoverian and Genoese representatives. > > Andrew Cook > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Dr Andrew S Cook andrew.cook@bl.uk > Map Archivist, India Office Records > The British Library > 96 Euston Road > London NW1 2DB Telephone/Voicemail 020 7412 7828 > United Kingdom Fax 020 7412 7641 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: [EXP] RE: ostend india company > Author: Andre Engels at Internet > Date: 17/10/2000 11:17 AM > > --- Francis Herbert wrote: > > Verenigte Ostindische Compagnie ([United] East India > > Company) and not to the Ostend India Company? > > I started to become curious, since I didn't know there > was also a company in Ostend, (present Belgium) but > the VOC is called de Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie. > > ===== > ------------ > Henny (Lee Hae Kang) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Oct 21 22:56:11 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LKuBr01962 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 22:56:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LKhrN24926; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 22:43:53 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9LKhQx13682 for discovery-list; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 22:43:26 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LKhKK13678 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 22:43:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from neo.skynet.be (neo.skynet.be [195.238.2.53]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LKhJN24920 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 22:43:19 +0200 (MDT) Received: from h8f5f4 (unknown [62.4.182.123]) by neo.skynet.be (Postfix) with SMTP id 036256D84 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 22:42:31 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <000e01c03b9f$607cbbc0$7bb6043e@h8f5f4> From: "Johan Deckers" To: References: <0022E7A1.C21394@bl.uk> <39F1D568.7BC29A64@seanet.com> Subject: Re: [EXP] RE: ostend india company Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 22:42:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I do johan deckers ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht ----- Van: "Paul D. Buell" Aan: Verzonden: zaterdag 21 oktober 2000 19:42 Onderwerp: Re: [EXP] RE: ostend india company > Good guide to all of this is Dermigny, on the Canton trade. Anyone want the full > reference? > > Andrew Cook wrote: > > > Yes, Ostend for the Austrian Netherlands. Besides English (EIC) and > > Dutch (VOC) East India Companies, there were also French, Danish, and > > Swedish East India Companies. I'm not sure how many more without > > checking, but they were probably as effective as the plethora of > > honorary consuls in Macao in the early nineteenth century, which > > included Polish, Sardinian, Hanoverian and Genoese representatives. > > > > Andrew Cook > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Dr Andrew S Cook andrew.cook@bl.uk > > Map Archivist, India Office Records > > The British Library > > 96 Euston Road > > London NW1 2DB Telephone/Voicemail 020 7412 7828 > > United Kingdom Fax 020 7412 7641 > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > > Subject: [EXP] RE: ostend india company > > Author: Andre Engels at Internet > > Date: 17/10/2000 11:17 AM > > > > --- Francis Herbert wrote: > > > Verenigte Ostindische Compagnie ([United] East India > > > Company) and not to the Ostend India Company? > > > > I started to become curious, since I didn't know there > > was also a company in Ostend, (present Belgium) but > > the VOC is called de Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie. > > > > ===== > > ------------ > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang) > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Oct 22 00:41:22 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LMfMr06438 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 00:41:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LMZ2N27212; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 00:35:02 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9LMYDa14305 for discovery-list; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 00:34:13 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LMY6K14301 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 00:34:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9LMY5t10788 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 00:34:06 +0200 (MDT) Received: from seanet.com ([24.5.126.35]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001021223344.TDLM4953.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@seanet.com> for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 15:33:44 -0700 Message-ID: <39F21821.15011C19@seanet.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 15:26:41 -0700 From: "Paul D. Buell" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] RE: ostend india company References: <0022E7A1.C21394@bl.uk> <39F1D568.7BC29A64@seanet.com> <000e01c03b9f$607cbbc0$7bb6043e@h8f5f4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Louis Dermigny, La Chine et L'Occident, le Commerce a Canton au XVIIIe Siecle, 1719-1833, 3 volumes plus appendix of illustrations, Paris: Editions Jean Touzot, 1964. Don't be fooled by the 1719-1833, the work goes far beyond its dates. And it also does not exclusively concentrate on China. There is extensive information on the Ostend company and its various incarnations. I suspect that Dermigny may have been working in this stuff before the archives were bombed. Note that the above leaves out the accents. Hard to reproduce them in email. Wish they would fix that. Paul D. Buell Johan Deckers wrote: > I do > > johan deckers > > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht ----- > Van: "Paul D. Buell" > Aan: > Verzonden: zaterdag 21 oktober 2000 19:42 > Onderwerp: Re: [EXP] RE: ostend india company > > > Good guide to all of this is Dermigny, on the Canton trade. Anyone want > the full > > reference? > > > > Andrew Cook wrote: > > > > > Yes, Ostend for the Austrian Netherlands. Besides English (EIC) > and > > > Dutch (VOC) East India Companies, there were also French, Danish, > and > > > Swedish East India Companies. I'm not sure how many more without > > > checking, but they were probably as effective as the plethora of > > > honorary consuls in Macao in the early nineteenth century, which > > > included Polish, Sardinian, Hanoverian and Genoese representatives. > > > > > > Andrew Cook > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > Dr Andrew S Cook andrew.cook@bl.uk > > > Map Archivist, India Office Records > > > The British Library > > > 96 Euston Road > > > London NW1 2DB Telephone/Voicemail 020 7412 7828 > > > United Kingdom Fax 020 7412 7641 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator > _________________________________ > > > Subject: [EXP] RE: ostend india company > > > Author: Andre Engels at Internet > > > Date: 17/10/2000 11:17 AM > > > > > > --- Francis Herbert wrote: > > > > Verenigte Ostindische Compagnie ([United] East India > > > > Company) and not to the Ostend India Company? > > > > > > I started to become curious, since I didn't know there > > > was also a company in Ostend, (present Belgium) but > > > the VOC is called de Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie. > > > > > > ===== > > > ------------ > > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang) > > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Oct 22 22:45:31 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9MKjUr29520 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:45:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9MKaHt13257; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:36:17 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9MKZPb18875 for discovery-list; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:35:25 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9MKZKK18871 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:35:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (IDENT:root@pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9MKZJN26081 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:35:19 +0200 (MDT) Received: from default.gamewood.net (bhmx0142.pubip.gamewood.net [208.30.87.57]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18337 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2000 16:35:15 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001022163722.00a87340@pop.gamewood.net> X-Sender: jsk@pop.gamewood.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 16:39:02 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: [EXP] BOOK SEARCH ENGINES ON THE WEB: USE FOR MAP RELATED MATERIALS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_11986969==_.ALT" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO --=====================_11986969==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed An increasing number of antiquarian maps and map-related materials are being listed for sale with the large on-line sites for out-of-print books. Below is the link to a webpage I have constructed as an attempt to help familiarize interested parties with some of the pros and cons of these online search engines. This will necessarily involve personal opinion, not simply an extensive or comprehensive site list. I plan to update and modify this site with some frequency, and would appreciate comments, suggestions and criticisms regarding the structure and content. Joel Kovarsky --=====================_11986969==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" An increasing number of antiquarian maps and map-related materials are being listed for sale with the large on-line sites for out-of-print books. Below is the link to a webpage I have constructed as an attempt to help familiarize interested parties with some of the pros and cons of these online search engines. This will necessarily involve personal opinion, not simply an extensive or comprehensive site list.

<http://www.theprimemeridian.com/webbooks.html>

I plan to update and modify this site with some frequency, and would appreciate comments, suggestions and criticisms regarding the structure and content.

                        Joel Kovarsky

--=====================_11986969==_.ALT-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Oct 24 11:47:04 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9O9l3r27819 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:47:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9O9EpN02109; Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:14:51 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9O9DT406343 for discovery-list; Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:13:29 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9O9DMK06339 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:13:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e9O9DMt15386 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:13:22 +0200 (MDT) Received: (qmail 12421 invoked from network); 24 Oct 2000 09:13:19 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 24 Oct 2000 09:13:19 -0000 Message-ID: <39F551B3.51921C3A@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:09:07 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] RE: ostend india company References: <0022E7A1.C21394@bl.uk> <39F1D568.7BC29A64@seanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The definitive text on the Ostend India Company is: Hulsman, M.: La belgique commerciale sous l'empereur Charles VI: la compagnie d'Ostende (Brussels 1902). Here is a little information on the Ostend Company for those interested: OSTEND INDIA COMPANY (= Generale Keijserlijcke Indische Company, GIC, also known as the Ostend Company or Austrian East India Company) The treaties of Utrecht and Rastatt (1713 and 1714) at the conclusion of the War of the Spanish Succession transferred the Spanish Netherlands to Austria while maintaining Dutch control over the Scheldt and the commerce of Antwerp. >From 1715 onwards a number of attempts were made, both by the Flemings and by a number of foreign interlopers, to exploit the position of Ostend as a commercial port in emulation of the Dutch and English East India Companies. These early private enterprises led to protests and the seizure of Ostend ships by its English and Dutch competitors. However, by the 1720s, the imperial government of Charles VI of Austria, prompted by the schemes of the English adventurer John Colebrooke, was tempted to give official recognition to the formation of a rival trading company based at Ostend. On 19.12.22 Charles VI granted a charter for the duration of thirty years to the Generale Keijserlijcke Indische Company, backed by a capital of six million florins, for trade with the East and West Indies and Africa. The imperial treasury would receive between three and six percent of the profits. Besides its formidable patronage, many of its supercargoes and captains had previously served with the English Company and provided considerable skill and experience. The company subsequently founded two factories in India, the most important of which was Bankibazar on the Hooghly River, 15 miles upstream from Calcutta. Trade was extremely profitable and benefited from extensive smuggling into England. This, along with Spanish support for the venture in 1725, caused a slump in the shares of the English and Dutch companies, arousing anger on both sides of the English Channel. An Act of Parliament declared any involvement by British nationals in the Ostend Company to be a criminal offence, and by the later years of the decade Britain, France, the United Provinces, Russia, Prussia, and even Spain had allied themselves against the new company. In vain the English and Dutch in Bengal tried to disclaim any connection with the "Ostenders" and attempted to convince the nawab (local governor) to do the same. The nawab's reply was that he "did not care who they were as long as they brought him money". By 1726 the Ostend Company declared a 33 percent dividend, fortified its factory at Bankibazar and had subordinate establishments in most of the Bengal trading centres. The commander of Fort William, Alexander Hume, attempted to bribe the nawab into rejecting Ostend traffic. However, the Ostenders then appealed to the nawab that they sailed under the flag of the "King of Poland", confusing the poor nawab even more. When a small Ostend vessel was arrested by the English and Dutch the nawab threatened commercial retaliation and the vessel was quickly restored to its captain. Eventually, after a massive bribe of 325,000 rupees had changed hands between the English and the nawab, the Ostend ship "Saint Theresa" was corralled at Calcutta with only the objection of its crew. After that the Ostenders never again posed much of a challenge. In 1727 the Austrian emperor's desire for international recognition of the succession of his daughter Maria Theresa led him to agree to suspend the activities of the company for a period of seven years, and the company was officially dissolved under the Treaty of Vienna in 1731. However the company continued to operate autonymously for another thirteen years. Attempts by the Danish Est India Company to recruit its members were checked by angry representations from the British government, while at Bankibazar the company servants continued to fly the flag of Charles VI. Trade continued from the Bengal factory until 1744 when the settlement was besieged by the faujdar of Hooghly. By the way, the "Swedish East India Company" was a "company of convenience" initially formed by a group of ex-privateers from Madagascar. I am particularly interested in the "Austrian Asiatic Company", which at one time had a factory in Mozambique. Does anybody know anything about it ? Best wishes Ray Howgego. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Oct 24 17:56:00 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9OFtxr22996 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:55:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9OFSbt08952; Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:28:37 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9OFRxB11219 for discovery-list; Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:27:59 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9OFRrK11215 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:27:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.83]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9OFRpN14942 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:27:52 +0200 (MDT) Received: from seanet.com ([24.5.126.35]) by femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001024152644.KIZI26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@seanet.com> for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:26:44 -0700 Message-ID: <39F5A8AC.B00E7468@seanet.com> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:20:12 -0700 From: "Paul D. Buell" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] RE: ostend india company References: <0022E7A1.C21394@bl.uk> <39F1D568.7BC29A64@seanet.com> <39F551B3.51921C3A@easynet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The Austrian company is discussed in Dermigny too. Ray Howgego wrote: > The definitive text on the Ostend India Company is: > > Hulsman, M.: La belgique commerciale sous l'empereur Charles VI: la > compagnie d'Ostende (Brussels 1902). > > Here is a little information on the Ostend Company for those interested: > > OSTEND INDIA COMPANY > > (= Generale Keijserlijcke Indische Company, GIC, also known as the > Ostend Company or Austrian East India Company) The treaties of Utrecht > and Rastatt (1713 and 1714) at the conclusion of the War of the Spanish > Succession transferred the Spanish Netherlands to Austria while > maintaining Dutch control over the Scheldt and the commerce of Antwerp. > >From 1715 onwards a number of attempts were made, both by the Flemings > and by a number of foreign interlopers, to exploit the position of > Ostend as a commercial port in emulation of the Dutch and English East > India Companies. These early private enterprises led to protests and > the seizure of Ostend ships by its English and Dutch competitors. > However, by the 1720s, the imperial government of Charles VI of Austria, > prompted by the schemes of the English adventurer John Colebrooke, was > tempted to give official recognition to the formation of a rival trading > company based at Ostend. > On 19.12.22 Charles VI granted a charter for the duration of thirty > years to the Generale Keijserlijcke Indische Company, backed by a > capital of six million florins, for trade with the East and West Indies > and Africa. The imperial treasury would receive between three and six > percent of the profits. Besides its formidable patronage, many of its > supercargoes and captains had previously served with the English Company > and provided considerable skill and experience. The company > subsequently founded two factories in India, the most important of which > was Bankibazar on the Hooghly River, 15 miles upstream from Calcutta. > Trade was extremely profitable and benefited from extensive smuggling > into England. This, along with Spanish support for the venture in 1725, > caused a slump in the shares of the English and Dutch companies, > arousing anger on both sides of the English Channel. An Act of > Parliament declared any involvement by British nationals in the Ostend > Company to be a criminal offence, and by the later years of the decade > Britain, France, the United Provinces, Russia, Prussia, and even Spain > had allied themselves against the new company. In vain the English and > Dutch in Bengal tried to disclaim any connection with the "Ostenders" > and attempted to convince the nawab (local governor) to do the same. > The nawab's reply was that he "did not care who they were as long as > they brought him money". By 1726 the Ostend Company declared a 33 > percent dividend, fortified its factory at Bankibazar and had > subordinate establishments in most of the Bengal trading centres. The > commander of Fort William, Alexander Hume, attempted to bribe the nawab > into rejecting Ostend traffic. However, the Ostenders then appealed to > the nawab that they sailed under the flag of the "King of Poland", > confusing the poor nawab even more. When a small Ostend vessel was > arrested by the English and Dutch the nawab threatened commercial > retaliation and the vessel was quickly restored to its captain. > Eventually, after a massive bribe of 325,000 rupees had changed hands > between the English and the nawab, the Ostend ship "Saint Theresa" was > corralled at Calcutta with only the objection of its crew. After that > the Ostenders never again posed much of a challenge. > In 1727 the Austrian emperor's desire for international recognition of > the succession of his daughter Maria Theresa led him to agree to suspend > the activities of the company for a period of seven years, and the > company was officially dissolved under the Treaty of Vienna in 1731. > However the company continued to operate autonymously for another > thirteen years. Attempts by the Danish Est India Company to recruit its > members were checked by angry representations from the British > government, while at Bankibazar the company servants continued to fly > the flag of Charles VI. Trade continued from the Bengal factory until > 1744 when the settlement was besieged by the faujdar of Hooghly. > > By the way, the "Swedish East India Company" was a "company of > convenience" initially formed by a group of ex-privateers from > Madagascar. > > I am particularly interested in the "Austrian Asiatic Company", which at > one time had a factory in Mozambique. Does anybody know anything about > it ? > > Best wishes > > Ray Howgego. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 26 00:20:07 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9PMK6r01605 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:20:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9PM77N09326; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:07:07 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9PM37D28612 for discovery-list; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:03:07 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9PM31K28608 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:03:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay8.austria.eu.net (relay8.Austria.EU.net [193.154.160.146]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9PM30N09174 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:03:00 +0200 (MDT) Received: from eunet.at (dialup052.ap01-wien.at.eu.net [193.154.184.52]) by relay8.austria.eu.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id e9PM2wJ21121 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:02:59 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <39F758B0.B25A61C5@eunet.at> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:03:28 +0200 From: HFK Organization: Castaway Network Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] Translation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Ladies and Gentlemen, I really would appreciate if someone would be so kind to translate the following few lines into English: Elling Carlsen (1819 - 1900) En legendarisk pioner blant ishavsskipperne fra Tromsø, som oppdager Kong Karls Land, er først rundt Svalbard og først inn i Karahavet. På en av sine mange ferder til Novaja Semlja finner han vinterleiren til den hollandske oppdagelsesreisende Willem Barents, som omkom i 1597. Carlsen reiser i utenriksfart som 17-åring og er i Ishavet for første gang i 1843. Han innfører meteorologiske målinger og tegner kart på sine ferder - en gang blir han og mannskapet tvunget til å overvintre i isen i 2 år. Thanks in advance and best regards Hermann F. Koerbel ****************************************** ARCTIC and ANTARCTIC Advice Agency Austria http://www.arctic.at the only true POLAR INFORMATION in Austria including the History of the Austrian Polar Exploration ****************************************** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 26 11:40:40 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9Q9eer04296 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:40:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9Q9M8N08727; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:22:08 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9Q9IqO02982 for discovery-list; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:18:52 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9Q9IkK02978 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:18:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (wsinfm15.win.tue.nl [131.155.69.168]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9Q9Ijt03432 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:18:45 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from engels@localhost) by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9Q8DxR06924 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:13:59 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andre Engels Message-Id: <200010260813.e9Q8DxR06924@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Translation In-Reply-To: <39F758B0.B25A61C5@eunet.at> from HFK at "Oct 26, 2000 0: 3:28 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:13:58 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O HFK wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen, > I really would appreciate if someone would be so kind > to translate the following few lines into English: I am not able to translate this, although I can roughly guess most of what it says, but this is the information I have on Carlsen: Elling Carlsen was a Norwegian whaler. In 1863 he circumnavigated Svalbard, in 1870 he circumnavigated Nova Zembla. During that last voyage, on 9 September 1871, he found the remains of het "Behouden Huys", the place where Barentsz and his men had spent the winter in 1596-7. Parts of the building were still erect. He brought back some material. Sources used: Mr. W.J. van Balen: Pioniers (volume 2). Amsterdam: Elsevier, 1940. Richard E. Bohlander (ed.): World Explorers and Discoverers. New York: Macmillan, 1992; New York: Da Capo Press, 1998. Rayner Unwin: Overwintering op Nova Zembla. Willem Barentsz en de expeditie om de Noord. Amsterdam: Prometheus, 1995. Translation of: A Winter Away from Home. William Barents and the North-east Passage, 1995. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/index_en.html If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all -- Noam Chomsky From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 26 11:41:36 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9Q9fZr04354 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:41:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9Q9WIN09928; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:32:18 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9Q9UTO03124 for discovery-list; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:30:29 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9Q9UMK03117 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:30:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from janus.ericsson.no (janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9Q9ULN09588 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:30:21 +0200 (MDT) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA02727 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:28:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03742 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:30:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <39F7F9AB.3EB0E957@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:30:19 +0200 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Translation References: <39F758B0.B25A61C5@eunet.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO HFK wrote: > Elling Carlsen (1819 - 1900) > En legendarisk pioner blant ishavsskipperne fra Tromsø, som oppdager Kong Karls Land, er først > rundt Svalbard og først inn i Karahavet. På en av sine mange ferder til Novaja Semlja finner han > vinterleiren til den hollandske oppdagelsesreisende Willem Barents, som omkom i 1597. Carlsen > reiser i utenriksfart som 17-åring og er i Ishavet for første gang i 1843. Han innfører > meteorologiske målinger og tegner kart på sine ferder - en gang blir han og mannskapet tvunget til > > å overvintre i isen i 2 år. Maybe not the best English, but you will probably understand it. Elling Carlsen (1819-1900) He was a legendary pioner among the Arctic skippers of Tromsø. He discovered king Carls land, was the first to sail around Svalbard and the first into the Kara sea. He discovered the winter camp of the Dutch discoverer, Willem Barents, in one of his many trips to Novaja Semlja. Carlsen went on his first trip abroad 17 years old. He went on his first trip to the Arctic Ocean in 1843. He introduced meteorological measurements and mapdrawings on his trips - He and his crew was once forced to spend two winters in the ice. Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Oct 27 10:03:30 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9R83Tr11535 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:03:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9R7heN08040; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:43:40 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9R7ekB13312 for discovery-list; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:40:46 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9R7efK13308 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:40:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e9R7eet10024 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:40:40 +0200 (MDT) Received: (qmail 82684 invoked from network); 27 Oct 2000 07:40:37 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.uk.easynet.net with SMTP; 27 Oct 2000 07:40:37 -0000 Message-ID: <39F93077.AEA42E54@easynet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:36:23 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Translation References: <39F758B0.B25A61C5@eunet.at> <39F7F9AB.3EB0E957@eto.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Elling Carlsen was neither the first to circumnavigate Svalbard, nor the first to sail into the Kara Sea. A report of 1675 stated that the Dutch had circumnavigated Svalbard and found open water on all sides. Maps from 1680 show Svalbard as a discrete archipelago, while that of Gerard van Keulen (c. 1720) shows every feature of the islands in detail, including the Nordaustlandet. Numerous voyages had taken place in the Kara Sea and by 1737 the entire coastline had been charted by Stepan Malygin, Dmitri Ovtsyn and others. Even his discovery of King Karls Land is to be doubted. The Russians had been in these waters since at least 1557, while the islands to the east of Svalbard were described by Ivan Khimkov in 1743. R.H. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Oct 27 10:28:58 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9R8Swr12598 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:28:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9R8GHt14451; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:16:17 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9R8Dpe13702 for discovery-list; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:13:51 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9R8DiK13698 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:13:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from janus.ericsson.no (janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9R8Dht14069 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:13:43 +0200 (MDT) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA10529 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:11:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23462 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:13:41 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <39F93935.A7261E3@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:13:41 +0200 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Translation References: <39F758B0.B25A61C5@eunet.at> <39F7F9AB.3EB0E957@eto.ericsson.se> <39F93077.AEA42E54@easynet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Ray Howgego wrote: > A report of 1675 stated that the Dutch had circumnavigated Svalbard and > found open water on all sides. Maps from 1680 show Svalbard as a > discrete archipelago, while that of Gerard van Keulen (c. 1720) shows > every feature of the islands in detail, including the Nordaustlandet. Speaking about who was first on Svalbard. The information about potentialy Norse gravemounds in Svalbard might be of interest to some of you. Re: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/d154800.htm http://www.nrk.no/viten/nyheter/W1222.html The last url contains video with this information. ----------------------------------------------- I forbindelse med innslaget om gravrøysene på Svalbard ble arkeolog Kristin Prestvold intervjuet. Hun har i høst befart flere gravrøyser som tidligere er registrert sor-øst på Svalbard. Flere av disse røysene er det misstanke om er jernalderrøyser og spessielt en som ligger på en av Tusenøyene sør for Edgeøya lukter det jernalder av sier hun. Denne ligger på det høyeste punktet på en av øyene. ca 5 meter over havet i det som fra gammelt av var en strandsone. Røysa har en diameter på 5 meter og er 1/2 meter høy. Rundt røysa kan det sees en fotkjede.. Prestvold sier at den minner om en klassisk jernalder steinrøys fra fastlands Norge. Det ble ikke sagt noe om når røysene skal undersøkes nærmere, men jeg regner med at det blir til sommeren. Utseendet på denne røysa er omtrent som den du kan se på dette bildet som er tatt av ei gravrøys fra oldtidsveien ved Stovnerområdet i Oslo. http://home.online.no/~roynorma/bilder/roys2a.jpg Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Oct 29 17:55:37 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9TGtar08389 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:55:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9TGijt06876; Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:44:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9TGfdb01535 for discovery-list; Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:41:39 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9TGfWK01531 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:41:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay2.austria.eu.net (endjinn.austria.eu.net [193.81.13.2]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9TGfVt06775 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:41:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from eunet.at (dialup211.ap04-wien.AT.KPNQwest.net [193.154.184.211]) by relay2.austria.eu.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id e9TGfT905075 for ; Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:41:30 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <39FC5362.612E0A4@eunet.at> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:42:11 +0100 From: HFK Organization: Castaway Network Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] Carlsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Thank you all very much for your translation and help ! If anyone has more information about Elling Carlsen, it is always welcome. Regards HFK ****************************************** ARCTIC and ANTARCTIC Advice Agency Austria http://www.arctic.at the only true POLAR INFORMATION in Austria including the History of the Austrian Polar Exploration ****************************************** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Oct 30 18:29:54 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9UHTsr25572 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:29:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9UHHut13785; Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:17:57 +0100 (MET) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9UHFKb13665 for discovery-list; Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:15:20 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9UHFEK13661 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:15:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from cap1.CapAccess.org (ewwolf@cap1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.10]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e9UHFDt13622 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:15:13 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ewwolf@localhost) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id MAA06355; Mon, 30 Oct 1972 12:21:47 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1972 12:21:47 -0500 Message-Id: <197210301721.MAA06355@cap1.CapAccess.org> From: ewwolf@capaccess.org (Eric W. Wolf) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Upcoming Auction Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Waverly Sale 167 to be held November 16 includes many items related to cartography and discovery. The catalogue is online at www.waverlyauctions.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Oct 31 16:44:12 2000 Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9VFiCr06169 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:44:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9VFSPN08752; Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:28:26 +0100 (MET) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9VFNSQ24626 for discovery-list; Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:23:28 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9VFNNK24622 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:23:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from janus.ericsson.no (janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e9VFNCt17045 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:23:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA04197 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:20:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25767 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:23:10 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <39FEE3DE.E957FD45@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:23:10 +0100 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Translation References: <39F758B0.B25A61C5@eunet.at> <39F7F9AB.3EB0E957@eto.ericsson.se> <39F93077.AEA42E54@easynet.co.uk> <39F93935.A7261E3@eto.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Geir Odden wrote: > Speaking about who was first on Svalbard. The information > about potentialy Norse gravemounds in Svalbard > might be of interest to some of you. > > Re: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/d154800.htm > http://www.nrk.no/viten/nyheter/W1222.html There is an update with english text and a picture of one of the mounds at: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/d171340.htm Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Nov 25 12:12:26 2000 Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eAPBCQr27891 for ; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:12:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl (svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eAPAvUW19940; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:57:30 +0100 (MET) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eAPAuud07189 for discovery-list; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:56:56 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: svin12.win.tue.nl: majordom set sender to owner-discovery@win.tue.nl using -f Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eAPAuoK07185 for ; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:56:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (wsinfm15.win.tue.nl [131.155.69.168]) by kweetal.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eAPAunW19903 for ; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:56:49 +0100 (MET) Received: (from engels@localhost) by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eAPAulJ02451 for discovery; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:56:47 +0100 (MET) From: Andre Engels Message-Id: <200011251056.eAPAulJ02451@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Groggy explorers To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:56:47 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Majordomo did not recognize this as a member submission because Joel is subscribed as jsk@pop.gamewood.net rather than jsk@gamewood.net. The second address has now been added to the list of permitted posters. ----- Forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Joel Kovarsky Subject: Re: [EXP] Groggy explorers I am not sure the interpretation was in error, since "grogg" is another spelling for "grog", as indicated in the Oxford English Dictionary. There is a "grog-flower", but this refers to a pimple on the end of a nose, as in acne rosacea. Given the tone of the quote, it sounds like a moral reproach. I've checked several historical medical texts, including an early 19th century British medical treatise on tropical diseases, and can find no other listing. Joel Kovarsky At 11:59 PM 11/24/00 +0100, you wrote: >I have a question about the term "grogg", which seems to be something else >than the usual grog (known since circa 1770). The term is in a letter from >the botanist Henry Smeathman, sent from Sierra Leone, 10 July 1773, to Dru >Drury. The reason why I ask is the fact that a gifted Swedish botanist and >pupil of Linnaeus, Andreas Berlin (1746-1773), in his obituary is said to >have drunk himself to death in Africa. My belief is that this is a fatal >misunderstanding of what Smeathman wrote: > >"I am not surprised at the havoc made - amongst the miserable adventures >here. At the time I sold part of Mr Berlin's things, there were likewise >sold the effects of three capital people here - All died of that >pestilence called grogg, and two of them since I went to Isles de Loss." > >Seems to me that "grogg" is the word for a particular disease. Has anybody >out there heard about such a pestilence? > >Carl-Henrik Berg >Umea University >Sweden ----- End of forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl -----