From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 4 02:14:33 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA12134; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:14:32 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA10279; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:14:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin10.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA10275; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:14:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA29239; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:14:19 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 23504 invoked by uid 0); 4 Dec 1997 01:13:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19971204011347.23503.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:13:46 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] New Member Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:13:46 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR To All, This is a test by a new member to confirm that I have properly subscribed to the Discovery ListServ. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 4 03:23:42 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA12764; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:23:42 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA10373; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:23:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA10369; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:23:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.minn.net by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA08057; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:23:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-205.Minn.Net [204.157.201.205]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA04122 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:23:11 -0600 Message-ID: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: [EXP] Thanks Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 21:12:58 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Many thanks to Andre Engels for taking the bull by the horns and getting this list up. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 4 05:41:17 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA25454; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:41:16 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA10520; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:41:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA10516; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:41:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from VMSrelay1.pcy.mci.net by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA17500; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:41:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from tom (usr3-dialup51.mix2.Boston.mci.net) by MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #10044) with ESMTP id <01IQR5MYHLEY0047Q2@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> for discovery@win.tue.nl; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:52:50 EST Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 22:37:51 -0500 From: Thomas Suarez Subject: [EXP] unidentified Death of Cook To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-id: <01IQR5MZ35HQ0047Q2@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hi folks, Well, this is all very exciting. Very best wishes to our new list, and thanks to Andre Engels for the initiative. I have come across a woodcut (yes, woodcut!) view of the death of Cook on the Kona coast, of which I can find no trace in the literature. I have shown it to two seasoned Hawaiiana dealers, neither of whom has ever seen it. More significantly, the Bishop Museum kindly researched it for me, and that institution neither owns it nor has any knowledge or record of it. The view appear to come from a German newspaper, my guess is that it is very early, from the early 1780s, since it speaks of Cook's death as a news item rather than retrospectively. It bears no relation to any of the standard images of Cook's death, and does fit into the genre of the many wood engravings and copperplate engravings from the official account of the voyage, or the many copies down into the nineteenth century. As mentioned, it presents the event as a news item. Most peculiar is that there is an inland town with a pagoda --- !!! --- the artist was clearly operating from fancy. Points in the view are identified by key in the verso text. Size is 175 x 315 mm. Okay now, SOMEONE out there must know this view --- ? Any insight greatly appreciated. Cheers, T Suarez ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Suarez suarez@mci2000.com tel (914) 741-6155 fax (914) 741-6156 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 4 05:44:24 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA25461; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:44:24 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA10528; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:44:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA10524; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:44:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from darius.concentric.net by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA17511; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:44:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id XAA23810; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:44:14 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts003d29.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.15.137]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id XAA05155; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:44:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971203234056.00797a50@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:40:56 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: [EXP] Well wishes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Congratulations and good luck on the new list. I think the name "Discovery" is a great choice. Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 4 12:26:51 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id MAA28998; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:26:50 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id MAA11089; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:26:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin04.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id MAA11085; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:26:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail1.panix.com by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id MAA28993; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:26:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from [166.84.204.41] (sphinx.dialup.access.net [166.84.204.41]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id GAA07493 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:25:29 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: sphinx@panix.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971203234056.00797a50@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:29:44 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Adrianne Wortzel Subject: [EXP] Welcome to Discovery! Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Congratulations on this list -- and its wonderful name! -Adrianne Wortzel From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 4 18:10:48 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA02457; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:10:47 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA11591; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:10:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin03.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA11587; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:10:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA26211; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:09:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from [146.115.194.168] by bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:09:47 -0500 X-Sender: reaston@bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:10:12 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: reaston@bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us (Robert W. Easton) Subject: [EXP] Intro Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I'm not too sure of the etiquette of this new list, but on other lists, new arrivals have introduced themselves- so here goes. I live in Worcester, Massachusetts, a small city in the center of the state. I teach third grade at Bancroft School which is an independent k-12 school of almost 600 students. I have been a teacher for 20 years (Bancroft for 10) and find this to be an energetic and stimulating place to work. The children generally come from families that are committed to education, and hence very supportive. I have joined this list because the main social studies theme we follow in the third grade is Exploration. Specifically, we study the Vikings, Marco Palo, and Columbus. We are in the midst of preparing for a Viking feast followed by a raid on the cafeteria for dessert and a few slaves to clean up after us. We attempt to be as accurate and honest in our portrayals of the explorers we study. We do not read Hagar the Horrible, but we do read sections of the Icelandic Sagas. And by the time we finish with Columbus, our students have a balanced view of his "discoveries." I am looking forward to this list- I've enjoyed contributing to Wigo Skramm's Viking Network, and I hope (if you all aren't hugely scholarly), I will be able to contribute here too. I seem to ask innocent questions that become incendiary conversation starters. (I just do what I can....) Robert Easton Robert W. Easton Bancroft School 110 Shore drive Worcester, MA USA 01605 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 4 18:21:31 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA02610; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:21:30 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA11647; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:21:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA11643; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:21:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from new-murphey.tenet.edu by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA18583; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:21:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from 118N191.beaumont.isd.tenet.edu ([168.51.244.241]) by new-murphey.tenet.edu (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40960U100000L30000S0) with SMTP id AAA22346; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:20:59 -0600 Message-ID: <34870223.1CB@tenet.edu> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 11:18:59 -0800 From: "Martha King" Organization: Regina Howell School, Beaumont ISD X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] New Member References: <19971204011347.23503.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Gregory McIntosh wrote: > > To All, > > This is a test by a new member to confirm that I have properly > subscribed to the Discovery ListServ. > > Greg McIntosh > plusultra@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com You did good!! From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 4 23:57:05 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id XAA05960; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:57:05 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id XAA12405; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:56:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin03.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id XAA12401; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:56:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id XAA27738; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:56:01 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 27136 invoked by uid 0); 4 Dec 1997 22:56:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19971204225604.27135.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:56:04 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Our New List Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:56:04 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Dear Martha, Thank you for the acknowledgement. Dear Andre and Keith, Congratulations! Great idea! BTW, perhaps, sometimes the placename Vinland referred to different locales at different times, and sometimes referred to the entire coastal region south of Markland. For instance, maybe Karlsefni's Vinland was not the same location as Leif's. And maybe Leif's and Karlsefni's was only small parts of a larger Vinland the Good. Regards, Greg McI ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 5 02:45:00 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA07249; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:44:59 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA12838; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:44:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA12834; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:44:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.minn.net by svtt02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA21556; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:44:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-233.minn.net [205.198.124.45]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA11308 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 19:44:08 -0600 Message-ID: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: [EXP] Frauds and Hoaxes Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 20:35:24 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR As many of you know, I have a longstanding interest in frauds and hoaxes in exploration and navigation. I am currently considering putting up a new website devoted to this topic. I am fairly knowledgable about the following: 1) Columbus lunar-eclipse longitudes, 1494 and 1504 2) Vespucci first voyage, 1496 (attribution uncertain) 3) Vespucci lunar distance longitude, 1499 4) F.A. Cook claims Mt. McKinley, 1906 5) R. E. Peary claims Crocker Land, 1906 6) F. A. Cook claims North Pole, 1908 7) R. E. Peary claims North Pole, 1909 8) R. E. Byrd claims North Pole, 1926 Does anyone have any others that I can add to this list? (Please include references, if you have them.) Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 5 04:51:00 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA20269; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:50:59 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA12931; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:50:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA12927; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:50:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from hil-img-2.compuserve.com by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA27532; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:50:16 +0100 (MET) Received: (from root@localhost) by hil-img-2.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.9) id WAA25566 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:49:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:49:26 -0500 From: Neil Good <105022.3530@compuserve.com> Subject: [EXP] Frauds and Hoaxes To: "INTERNET:discovery@win.tue.nl" Message-ID: <199712042249_MC2-2AC3-887@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Keith, A possible addition to your list of frauds and hoaxes in exploration and navigation, (maybe a long shot, but it certainly falls in the navigation category), might be the story of Douglas "Wrong Way" Corrigan. He was the "famous" pilot from California who applied for permission to fly the= Atlantic sometime after Lindberg's 1927 flight. He wanted to depart from= New York, but was denied. He ended up in Ireland anyway. He claimed t= o the end he misread his compass on the flight back to California. If I remember the details, he would tell the story with a wink of the eye. He= was also regarded as a very talented navigator. He died not too long ag= o. (past 5 years?) The story has been written up many times in aviation books. I'm sorry I can't name a specific one. = Neil Good = 105022.3530@compuserve.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 4 07:47:23 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id HAA26259; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:47:23 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id HAA10610; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:46:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin08.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id HAA10606; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:46:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id HAA27818; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:46:42 +0100 (MET) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.9) id BAA10077 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:46:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:15:58 -0500 From: Neil Good <105022.3530@compuserve.com> Subject: [EXP] Andre Engels To: discovery Message-ID: <199712040116_MC2-2A95-F976@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Andre is entitled to a long and very loud round of applause. He did what= I believe the rest of us would have just continued to talk about. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 5 05:56:05 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA20548; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:56:05 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA13008; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:55:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA13004; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:55:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from VMSrelay1.pcy.mci.net by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA27612; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:55:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from tom (usr29-dialup23.mix2.Boston.mci.net) by MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #10044) with ESMTP id <01IQSM3I8NB0004HFF@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> for discovery@win.tue.nl; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:54:21 EST Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 22:04:36 -0500 From: Thomas Suarez Subject: Re: [EXP] Frauds and Hoaxes To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-id: <01IQSM3KCUVW004HFF@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Keith, just a couple of ideas --- How about Louis Hennepin ? And even Andre Thevet? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Suarez suarez@mci2000.com tel (914) 741-6155 fax (914) 741-6156 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 5 11:02:52 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id LAA23196; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:02:52 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id LAA13386; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:01:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id LAA13382; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:01:53 +0100 (MET) Received: by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id LAA05857; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:01:52 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199712051001.LAA05857@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Frauds and Hoaxes To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:01:51 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: from "Keith Pickering" at Dec 4, 97 08:35:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Keith Pickering wrote: > > As many of you know, I have a longstanding interest in frauds and hoaxes in > exploration and navigation. I am currently considering putting up a new > website devoted to this topic. I am fairly knowledgable about the > following: > > 1) Columbus lunar-eclipse longitudes, 1494 and 1504 > 2) Vespucci first voyage, 1496 (attribution uncertain) > 3) Vespucci lunar distance longitude, 1499 > 4) F.A. Cook claims Mt. McKinley, 1906 > 5) R. E. Peary claims Crocker Land, 1906 > 6) F. A. Cook claims North Pole, 1908 > 7) R. E. Peary claims North Pole, 1909 > 8) R. E. Byrd claims North Pole, 1926 I think Peary 1909 is well established by now, see for example: Thomas D. Davies: New Evidence Places Peary at the Pole. In: National Geographic 177:1 (1990), pages 44-61. > Does anyone have any others that I can add to this list? (Please include > references, if you have them.) Some famous frauds concern pre-Columbian voyages to America: Prince Madoc, the Zeno brothers and Pining & Ponthorst come to mind. Apart from the two now commonly accepted, and the voyage you give, there is yet a fourth voyage that has been claimed to have been made by Vespucci. I think this was a voyage to Brasil in 1503-4. Vespucci claimed to have reached 50 degrees south on his 1501-2 voyage, but present-day historians believe he got no further than about the Tropic of Capricorn. Juan de la Fuca claimed to have sailed through the Straits of Anyan from west to east. The following voyagers have been claimed to have been fraudulent, although the majority of historians do not think so: Marco Polo: Never was in China Frances Wood: Did Marco Polo Go to China? London: Secker & Warburg (1995) Ludovico di Varthema: Did not get further than east India source unknown Sebastian Cabot: 1508 voyage completely fraudulent Samuel Eliot Morison: The European Discovery of America. The Northern Voyages, A.D. 500-1600. New York: Oxford University Press (1971), The following voyagers were disbelieved in their own time, but are now believed to have made the voyage they claimed to have made: Pytheas, Rene Caillie, Richard Bruce (the first few years) -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html People do not stop playing games when they grow old, they grow old when they stop playing games. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 5 18:49:00 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA28131; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:49:00 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA14164; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:46:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA14160; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:46:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA02647; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:46:30 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 17230 invoked by uid 0); 5 Dec 1997 17:46:00 -0000 Message-ID: <19971205174600.17229.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:45:57 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Our New List Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:45:57 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Neil, is a shorthand for used by some e-mailers. Sorry for the confusion. My purpose in adding the remark I made is to start our thinking about what we mean by Vinland before we try and find the where of Vinland. Vinland meant many things to many people at different times. Vinland of The Flatey Book, Vinland of Hauk's Book, V of Adam of Bremen, V of Stefensen and Resen, V of the Yale Vinland Map, etc., etc., etc. We should not assume that all of these ideas and locales referred to the exact same Vinland. For example, let us assume that Leif’s Vinland was at the northern tip of Newfoundland, and let us assume that Karlsefni’s Vinland was the entire St. Lawrence Basin, and, let us further assume, that the Vinland of the Yale Vinland Map (assuming for the sake of this argument that it is authentic) is the entire northeastern littoral of North America. Now, I might argue that Vinland was really Newfoundland and you might argue that it was on the north shore of New Brunswick and another might argue that it was in New England. And, you know what? -- we would all be right and we would all be wrong because it would depend on which Vinland we were talking about. I assert that we have not examined our assumption that all pre-1600 references to Vinland are to the same exact locale, nor have we agreed on which of these differing Vinlands we are going to try and locate by answering the question: Where was Vinland? I ask all of us: Are we sure that Leif’s Vinland is the same in location and extent as all other later references? Also, if some of us are going to continue discussing , we had better lay down some other basics, such as, identifying our source documents. For example, the earliest saga story of Vinland is usually known as the Tale of the Greenlanders contained in the Saga of Olaf Tryggvasson contained in the Flatey Book known as No. 1005, fol. of the Old Royal Collection. And this earliest saga story of Vinland is variously known by any of the above three names. Which are we going to use so we can at least have some common nomenclature? Similarly with the other major saga source - Hauk’s Book. I suggest we use and and avoid using the names Flatey Book and Hauk’s Book when referring to the Vinland portions of these sagas. What do you think? Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 5 18:59:49 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA28254; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:59:49 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA14198; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:59:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin03.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA14194; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:59:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA11052; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:59:01 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 20807 invoked by uid 0); 5 Dec 1997 17:58:53 -0000 Message-ID: <19971205175853.20805.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:58:50 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Frauds and Hoaxes Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:58:50 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Keith, Read and . Sorry, but as usual, I am not with my library so I cannot give you the complete bibliographical citations, but you can find them. Also, add Jonathan Carver to your list. For a long time scholars considered his Journal a plagarism and hoax but I believe more recent scholars, such as Jack Parker, of the Society for the History of Discoveries and the University of Minnesota, have made some reevaluation and rehabilitation of Carver. The Northwest Passage and Strait of Anian gives us Maldonaldo, Fontes, de Fuca, and the Octavia, a supposed nineteenth century merchant ship that sailed through the Bering Strait into the Arctic and then drifted, after the crew froze/starved, to the western portion of the Canadian Arctic Archipelago to be found by a whaler, thus preceding Amundsen in the other direction. Probably a hoax but I do not know the basis for it or what its origin is. I have seen it mentioned in various books. I think Raymond Ramsay mentions it in . Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 6 04:22:49 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA15153; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:22:49 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA15175; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:22:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA15171; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:21:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.minn.net by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA14696; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:21:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-210.Minn.Net [204.157.201.210]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA16626 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:21:46 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01IQSM3KCUVW004HFF@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> References: Conversation <01IQSM3KCUVW004HFF@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> with last message <01IQSM3KCUVW004HFF@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] Frauds and Hoaxes Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 19:30:11 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Tom, I'm unfamiliar with the frauds attributed to either Hennepin or Thevet. Can you explain, or provide a reference? Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > Keith, > > just a couple of ideas --- > > How about Louis Hennepin ? > > And even Andre Thevet? > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Tom Suarez > suarez@mci2000.com > tel (914) 741-6155 > fax (914) 741-6156 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 6 12:27:07 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id MAA17087; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:27:07 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id MAA15418; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:26:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbs01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id MAA15414; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:26:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id MAA10343; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:26:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from burke (1Cust164.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net [208.255.237.164]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id FAA08755 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 05:31:39 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3489376D.5D35@gte.net> Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 06:30:53 -0500 From: Jennifer & Tim Burke Organization: home X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Frauds and Hoaxes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Keith Pickering wrote: > > As many of you know, I have a longstanding interest in frauds and hoaxes in > exploration and navigation. Snip See Charles Nicholl’s The Creature in the Map (1995) for a good discussion of the history of the El Dorado legend in the Americas and some of the various claims for its “discovery”. There is of course Lord Edmund Blackadder’s alleged journey around the Cape of Good Hope in the latter half of the 16th Century. http://www.xmission.com/~tchansen/blackadder/bl2-ep3-s.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 6 20:38:55 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA19524; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:38:55 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA15777; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:35:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA15773; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:35:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from venus.le.ac.uk by svtt02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA08131; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:35:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from lupin.le.ac.uk by venus.le.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:31:19 +0000 Received: from LUPIN/SpoolDir by lupin.le.ac.uk (Mercury 1.31); 6 Dec 97 19:37:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from SpoolDir by LUPIN (Mercury 1.31); 6 Dec 97 19:37:26 +0100 (BST) From: Dittepigen To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:37:17 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [EXP] Our New List X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Message-ID: <1D47A89567E@lupin.le.ac.uk> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR > From: Gregory McIntosh > To: discovery@win.tue.nl > Subject: [EXP] Our New List > Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:45:57 PST > Reply-to: discovery@win.tue.nl > Neil, > > is a shorthand for used by some e-mailers. Sorry for > the confusion. > > My purpose in adding the remark I made is to start our thinking about > what we mean by Vinland before we try and find the where of Vinland. > Vinland meant many things to many people at different times. Vinland of > The Flatey Book, Vinland of Hauk's Book, V of Adam of Bremen, V of > Stefensen and Resen, V of the Yale Vinland Map, etc., etc., etc. We > should not assume that all of these ideas and locales referred to the > exact same Vinland. For example, let us assume that Leifs Vinland was > at the northern tip of Newfoundland, and let us assume that Karlsefnis > Vinland was the entire St. Lawrence Basin, and, let us further assume, > that the Vinland of the Yale Vinland Map (assuming for the sake of this > argument that it is authentic) is the entire northeastern littoral of > North America. Now, I might argue that Vinland was really Newfoundland > and you might argue that it was on the north shore of New Brunswick and > another might argue that it was in New England. And, you know what? -- > we would all be right and we would all be wrong because it would depend > on which Vinland we were talking about. I assert that we have not > examined our assumption that all pre-1600 references to Vinland are to > the same exact locale, nor have we agreed on which of these differing > Vinlands we are going to try and locate by answering the question: Where > was Vinland? I ask all of us: Are we sure that Leifs Vinland is the > same in location and extent as all other later references? > > Also, if some of us are going to continue discussing Vinland?>, we had better lay down some other basics, such as, > identifying our source documents. For example, the earliest saga story > of Vinland is usually known as the Tale of the Greenlanders contained in > the Saga of Olaf Tryggvasson contained in the Flatey Book known as No. > 1005, fol. of the Old Royal Collection. And this earliest saga story of > Vinland is variously known by any of the above three names. Which are > we going to use so we can at least have some common nomenclature? > Similarly with the other major saga source - Hauks Book. I suggest we > use and and > avoid using the names Flatey Book and Hauks Book when referring to the > Vinland portions of these sagas. > > What do you think? > > Greg McIntosh > plusultra@hotmail.com > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Surely there are several finds that seems to verify the truthfulness about the Vikings discovering America. The mooring holes found along the North American coastline by Friedrich and identified as holes made by the Vikings usef for dropping in pegs attached to the ship to anchor it to the shore; the 'Heavener Runestone' in Oklahoma and the Runestone rediscovered on a small island south of Cape Cod in 1985 by Kenneth M. Jungersen with the inscription 'Leif Eriksson 1001', not to mention the Adam of Bremen account regarding his visist to Denmark... Ditte From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 6 22:20:21 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA21052; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:20:21 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA15908; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:17:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA15904; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:17:15 +0100 (MET) Received: by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA08403; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:17:14 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199712062117.WAA08403@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Our New List To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:17:13 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <1D47A89567E@lupin.le.ac.uk> from "Dittepigen" at Dec 6, 97 07:37:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Dittepigen wrote: > Surely there are several finds that seems to verify the truthfulness > about the Vikings discovering America. The mooring holes found along > the North American coastline by Friedrich and identified as holes > made by the Vikings usef for dropping in pegs attached to the ship to > anchor it to the shore; the 'Heavener Runestone' in Oklahoma and the > Runestone rediscovered on a small island south of Cape Cod in 1985 by > Kenneth M. Jungersen with the inscription 'Leif Eriksson 1001', not > to mention the Adam of Bremen account regarding his visist to > Denmark... On the mooring holes: Samuel Eliot Morison: The European Discovery of America. The Northeren Voyages A.D. 500-1600. New York: Oxford University Press (1971): Frederick J. Pohl centers the drama [i.e. the Norse voyages to America] on Cape Cod and Mount Desert Island, Maine, on the basis of "mooring holes" in the rocks. These were made by the English natives of New England to receive iron eye-bolts through which to reeve a line to a boat mooring or fish trap. I could have shown him some made for me! It is true that Scandinavians then, as now, liked to moor fore and aft, both to an anchor and to a ring-bolt or tree ashore. But in New England there were plenty of stout trees near shore, and no need to drill holes in granite rocks. The Heavener Runestone (and many other 'runestones' found in the United States) is not only dismissed by most experts, simple logic should be enough to dismiss it outright: Vikings in Newfoundland are proven. Vikings in New England are a reasonable hypothesis. But Vikings in southwest Oklahoma makes me laugh out loud. About the Runestone south of Cape Cod I do not know, but what reason would Leif have to make such a runestone? Not to mention the fact that the large number of bogus runestones found at the craziest places in the States (see last paragraph) have made me skeptic on this point. This could be the following stone (again citing Morison): An alleged runic signature of Leif Ericsson with date MI was observed on a boulder lying on the beach at No Man's Land, an island off Martha's Vineyard, around 1920. It forms the basis of abook by Edward F. Gray, Leif Eriksson Discoverer of America (Oxford, 1930), in which it is illustrated. Opinions of runic experts were so disappointing that Mr. Gray finally concluded (p. 159) that it was carved by some later explorer such as Verrazzano or Gosnold as a "monument to Lief" (!) [sic] The inscription was thouroughly investigated by Edmund B. Delabarre and Charles W. Brown for The New England Quarterly, VIII (1935), 365-78. They concluded that it had been carved by in the twentieth century by some joker, probably Walton Ricketson (1839-1923) of New Bedford. Adam van Bremen is interesting because it is the only known mentioning of Vinland outside Iceland. His text gives us no idea about the location of Vinland, however. For true evidence of the Viking present in America you have to go further north, to Canada. First and foremost there is L'Anse aux Meadows, a small viking settlement on the north coast of Newfoundland, believed by many to be Leifs Vinland. There are also viking finds at the coast of Baffinland. See for more information on L'Anse aux Meadows the following sites: http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~salmon/wh-lanse.html http://www.heureka.fi/en/x/nxwallace.html http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/vinland.html http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/north/nor-i/thule/viphotoe.htm -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html There is no limit to human stupidity and the universe, although I am not sure about the latter. -- Albert Einstein From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 7 02:59:31 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA22912; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 02:59:30 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA16222; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 02:56:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin04.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA16218; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 02:56:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from konichiwa.cc.columbia.edu by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA22894; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 02:56:05 +0100 (MET) Received: (from sks9@localhost) by konichiwa.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA06278 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:56:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 97 20:56:02 EST From: Sarah K Schneewind To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] claims to have "discovered" America Message-ID: Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I wonder whether any of you experts on frauds (as a newcomer I am greatly enjoying the discussion) have heard of or read about recent Chinese claims that Chinese ships discovered California? Sarah Schneewind sks9@columbia.edu From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 7 18:29:49 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA09647; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:29:49 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA16705; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:28:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin10.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA16701; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:28:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS02 by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA25727; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:28:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR02 - 207.68.143.138 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 09:28:16 -0800 Received: from chono - 206.133.224.96 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 09:28:15 -0800 From: "Paul D. Buell" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] claims to have "discovered" America Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 09:24:02 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0584d15281707c7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Who knows? The history of early Chinese nautical exploration is discussed in detail in Joseph Needham, Wang Ling, and Lu Gwei-djen, Science and Civilization in China, 4, Physics and Physical Technology, III, Civil Engineering and Nautics, Cambridge: the Cambridge University Press, 1971. Although there have been some recent new claims nothing I have seen makes the basic discussion there obsolete. The claims for California, as I remember, are based on the discovery of Chinse "anchor" stones. Very doubtful but who knows. Disregard, however, the claims based on early Chinese coins. The early coins came in as part of strings, among other things as ballast for ships, and when the leather strings rotted, the coins were scattered, sometines in archaeological sites. There is a literature on this. See Megan McCormick's work in particular. Paul D. Buell -----Original Message----- From: Sarah K Schneewind To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Saturday, December 06, 1997 6:09 PM Subject: [EXP] claims to have "discovered" America >I wonder whether any of you experts on frauds (as a newcomer I am >greatly enjoying the discussion) have heard of or read about recent >Chinese claims that Chinese ships discovered California? >Sarah Schneewind >sks9@columbia.edu From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 7 19:36:48 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA09889; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:36:48 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA16784; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:36:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from svis01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA16780; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:36:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from home.humboldt1.com by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA11653; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:36:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from 206.13.45.137 (ppp37.humboldt1.com [206.13.45.137]) by home.humboldt1.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA09444 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:33:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <348ADE53.18C2@humboldt1.com> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 10:35:15 -0700 From: John Cromwell X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] claims to have "discovered" America References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hello folks, I have a friend who is studying Christopher Columbus' journals and is convinced he has found excepts which he thinks mention Columbus' encountering blacks in the Americas upon arrival. He is just emberking on this as a possible thesis topic. But it seems strange that no one hasn't stubbled upon this before. I assume by blacks, is meant persons of African descent. All criticisms and confirmations very encouraged on this one. Thanks, John Cromwell From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 7 19:40:09 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA09900; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:40:08 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA16792; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:40:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA16788; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:39:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA20371; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:39:57 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 2342 invoked by uid 0); 7 Dec 1997 18:39:24 -0000 Message-ID: <19971207183924.2341.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 07 Dec 1997 10:39:24 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] claims to have "discovered" America Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 10:39:24 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The earliest printed European theory that the Chinese preceded Columbus was in the eighteenth century and has often been re-offered and developed since. But it is not a discovery fraud or hoax. It is a serious precolumbian discovery theory that, as with so many others, lacks hard evidence. Regarding the so-called ancient Chinese stone anchors in California found off the Palos Verdes Peninsula (where I lived at the time) a few years ago -- they are from nineteenth century Portuguese whalers and fishermen. Of course, when newspapers and popular books have a choice between printing the truth and printing an exciting and radical theory that sells -- well, you know the rest. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 7 20:23:17 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA10091; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:23:16 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA16813; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:22:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from svis01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA16809; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:22:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA11683; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:22:35 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 12981 invoked by uid 0); 7 Dec 1997 19:22:01 -0000 Message-ID: <19971207192201.12979.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:22:00 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] claims to "discover" America Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:22:00 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR John Cromwell, Several books have been written on the topic of precolumbian sub-Saharan black Africans (and Africans in general) in America. I do not have the references with me right now (they are at home,) but I can get them. One of the first was published about one hundred years ago (and reprinted since) and is still considered something of the on this topic. The recent books by Van Sertima are worthless, however. He misreads and misunderstands his sources. He blindly accepts everything he reads that supports his thesis and lacks any critical sense. He treats secondary and tertiary sources as though they were primary sources. If one were to use his bibliography and go read what those primary, secondary, and tertiary sources have to say, one's time and energy would be better spent that reading his misinterpretations or the misinterpretations of others he blithely repeats. Agitatedly, Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 7 20:23:32 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA10096; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:23:32 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA16821; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:23:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA16817; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:23:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from venus.le.ac.uk by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA20456; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:23:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from lupin.le.ac.uk by venus.le.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:17:34 +0000 Received: from LUPIN/SpoolDir by lupin.le.ac.uk (Mercury 1.31); 7 Dec 97 19:24:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from SpoolDir by LUPIN (Mercury 1.31); 7 Dec 97 19:23:57 +0100 (BST) From: Dittepigen To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:23:56 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [EXP] Our New List X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Message-ID: <1EC41BA11EB@lupin.le.ac.uk> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR > From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) > Adam van Bremen is interesting because it is the only known mentioning of > Vinland outside Iceland. His text gives us no idea about the location of > Vinland, however. > > For true evidence of the Viking present in America you have to go further > north, to Canada. First and foremost there is L'Anse aux Meadows, a small > viking settlement on the north coast of Newfoundland, believed by many to > be Leifs Vinland. There are also viking finds at the coast of Baffinland. > I have read about the evidence in North America, if I remember correctly there was an excavation of a small island where it was proven that a small Viking settlement, possibly an "over wintering", had existed some time during the early 11th century. This is all good and well, but how can you explain the description that we get from the Vinland sagas? The cold, temperate sites found corresponds rather poorly to the image we recieve from the historical evidence of fruit and wine, nice beaches, etc. Ok, so maybe we do not yet have archaeological evidence to support the theory of Vikings being the first to discover America, save a small isle close to the Canadian border, but the discriptions we recieve in the sagas, how do we explain them? And what of all the other verifications we have from excavations such as Eiriks Fjord? -Which clearly prove the saga to hold some truth... > See for more information on L'Anse aux Meadows the following sites: > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~salmon/wh-lanse.html > http://www.heureka.fi/en/x/nxwallace.html > http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/vinland.html > http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/north/nor-i/thule/viphotoe.htm > I will do as soon as Ive finished my essay on historical archaeology... > -- > Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl > http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > > There is no limit to human stupidity and the universe, > although I am not sure about the latter. -- Albert Einstein > The Imperial Mistress of the Night alias Ditte From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 7 20:25:07 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA10106; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:25:06 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA16829; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:24:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin04.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA16825; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:24:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA10101; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:24:51 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 13948 invoked by uid 0); 7 Dec 1997 19:24:19 -0000 Message-ID: <19971207192419.13947.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:24:18 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] claims to "discover" America Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:24:18 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Ditte, Apparently, from your response to my remarks, I have not made myself clear. I am not doubting that Norse Greenlanders visited the mainland of North America and that evidence -- textual and archealogical -- remains. What I am saying is that if we -- some members of this list -- are going to try to answer the question: we had better first agree on which Vinland we mean because, for the different individuals in the Middle Ages who used the term, the placename did not denote the same exact land region. I suggest that Leif’s Vinland was a smaller locale than his brother’s meaning of Vinland, which, in turn, was of a smaller locale than Karlsefni’s, etc. An analogy would be if we were to argue about where the United States was (if we did not know). One of us might argue from some late nineteenth century archaelogical evidence that the United States included California, while another of us might argue from an early nineteenth century might that the US did not include California. They are both right and both wrong BECAUSE THE EXTANT OF THE LOCALE DENOTED BY THE PLACENAME, , GREW OVER TIME. This is exactly what I am asserting about Vinland. Between 1000 CE and 1500 CE, the placename grew in meaning amongst the Norse from a stream and a lake and a couple of huts to include a continental region. So whose are we going to track down? Leif’s, Karlsefni’s, Adam of Bremen’s, Resens’s, etc. They all included Leif’s Vinland but Leif’s Vinland did not necessarily include all the land later meant by the Norse use of the placename. Over the centuries the meaning for the Norse of the placename grew and expanded to include more territory than just Leif’s Houses. The boundary of Vinland changed a little or a lot over time. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 7 20:44:42 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA10143; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:44:42 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA16844; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:44:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA16840; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:44:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svtt02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA28495; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:44:04 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 3608 invoked by uid 0); 7 Dec 1997 19:43:32 -0000 Message-ID: <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:43:31 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:43:31 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Would anybody out there who believes there were vines and grapes in Vinland please tell me why at least two or three Norse voyagers in the sagas cut vines and grapes and loaded this cargo into their ships to return with to Greenland. What a stinking, rotten mess it must have been when they got there! And then they did it again! And no fair dismissing it as a copyist error or a misinterpretation of later saga tellers. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 7 20:45:36 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA10150; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:45:36 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA16852; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:45:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA16848; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:45:25 +0100 (MET) Received: by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA09472; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:45:21 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199712071945.UAA09472@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Our New List To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:45:21 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <1EC41BA11EB@lupin.le.ac.uk> from "Dittepigen" at Dec 7, 97 07:23:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Dittepigen wrote: > > > From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) > > Adam van Bremen is interesting because it is the only known mentioning of > > Vinland outside Iceland. His text gives us no idea about the location of > > Vinland, however. > > > > For true evidence of the Viking present in America you have to go further > > north, to Canada. First and foremost there is L'Anse aux Meadows, a small > > viking settlement on the north coast of Newfoundland, believed by many to > > be Leifs Vinland. There are also viking finds at the coast of Baffinland. > > > I have read about the evidence in North America, if I remember > correctly there was an excavation of a small island where it was > proven that a small Viking settlement, possibly an "over > wintering", had existed some time during the early 11th century. This > is all good and well, but how can you explain the description that we > get from the Vinland sagas? The cold, temperate sites found > corresponds rather poorly to the image we recieve from the historical > evidence of fruit and wine, nice beaches, etc. Ok, so maybe we do not > yet have archaeological evidence to support the theory of Vikings > being the first to discover America, save a small isle close to the > Canadian border, but the discriptions we recieve in the sagas, how do > we explain them? And what of all the other verifications we have from > excavations such as Eiriks Fjord? -Which clearly prove the saga to > hold some truth... I am not claiming that the sagas aren't true. I am just saying that it might very well be in Newfoundland instead of New England. The only thing in the sagas which really speaks against this is the wine. No other parts speak against it, and the wine has been explained as well - wineberries plus some exaggeration. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html There is no limit to human stupidity and the universe, although I am not sure about the latter. -- Albert Einstein From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 7 20:53:45 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA10180; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:53:45 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA16860; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:53:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin08.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA16856; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:53:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from vulcan by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA02830; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:53:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from lupin.le.ac.uk by vulcan with SMTP (PP); Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:49:27 +0000 Received: from LUPIN/SpoolDir by lupin.le.ac.uk (Mercury 1.31); 7 Dec 97 19:55:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from SpoolDir by LUPIN (Mercury 1.31); 7 Dec 97 19:55:36 +0100 (BST) From: Dittepigen To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:55:35 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [EXP] claims to "discover" America X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Message-ID: <1ECC8BF6592@lupin.le.ac.uk> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR > From: Gregory McIntosh > To: discovery@win.tue.nl > Subject: [EXP] claims to "discover" America > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:24:18 PST > Reply-to: discovery@win.tue.nl > Ditte, > > Apparently, from your response to my remarks, I have not made myself > clear. I am not doubting that Norse Greenlanders visited the mainland > of North America and that evidence -- textual and archealogical -- > remains. What I am saying is that if we -- some members of this list -- > are going to try to answer the question: we had > better first agree on which Vinland we mean because, for the different > individuals in the Middle Ages who used the term, the placename did not > denote the same exact land region. I suggest that Leifs Vinland was a > smaller locale than his brothers meaning of Vinland, which, in turn, > was of a smaller locale than Karlsefnis, etc. An analogy would be if > we were to argue about where the United States was (if we did not know). > One of us might argue from some late nineteenth century archaelogical > evidence that the United States included California, while another of us > might argue from an early nineteenth century might that the US did not > include California. They are both right and both wrong BECAUSE THE > EXTANT OF THE LOCALE DENOTED BY THE PLACENAME, , GREW > OVER TIME. This is exactly what I am asserting about Vinland. Between > 1000 CE and 1500 CE, the placename grew in meaning amongst the > Norse from a stream and a lake and a couple of huts to include a > continental region. So whose are we going to track down? > Leifs, Karlsefnis, Adam of Bremens, Resenss, etc. They all included > Leifs Vinland but Leifs Vinland did not necessarily include all the > land later meant by the Norse use of the placename. Over the centuries > the meaning for the Norse of the placename grew and expanded > to include more territory than just Leifs Houses. The boundary of > Vinland changed a little or a lot over time. Well, I would certainly argue that finding evidence of Leif's crew upon American soil, is highly unlikely, and now that Lars tells me that the runestones, which on the net was presented to me as authentical, are indeed hoaxes, all Im left with is the Vinland Map as verifying evidence... In the south I mean. So, according to the saga, Thorvald did settle for awhile in Vinland, before he and his men were "chased of" by the natives, who killed some of them in the process. We are faced with a needle in a haystack, and our chances of finding the site of his settlement are very slim. The descriptions of the place they incountered although vague, could possibly be used alonside with experiments previously used such as most likely place to land, when blown off course on the way to Greenland in a Viking boat. This may seem simple, but I havent heard of anybody giving it a try yet... > > Greg McIntosh > plusultra@hotmail.com > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > The Imperial Mistress of the Night alias Ditte From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 7 21:08:49 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA10579; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:08:48 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA16960; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:08:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA16956; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:08:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from venus.le.ac.uk by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA08538; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:08:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from lupin.le.ac.uk by venus.le.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:04:51 +0000 Received: from LUPIN/SpoolDir by lupin.le.ac.uk (Mercury 1.31); 7 Dec 97 20:11:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from SpoolDir by LUPIN (Mercury 1.31); 7 Dec 97 20:11:10 +0100 (BST) From: Dittepigen To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:11:08 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [EXP] Our New List X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Message-ID: <1ED0B2D0CCB@lupin.le.ac.uk> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Ok lets all have a go at me for believing the wine part! When the Vikings arrived they liked the land because it was different, warmer than where they came from. Graendlendinga Saga seems to me to be rather extraordinary BECAUSE it is such a down to earth account. If we were discussing Eiriks Saga I would agree with you both on the exaggeration theory, but why would the narrator throw in a bit about Wines? Im sorry but I dont see why that should add anything extra to the story... Ok so the grapes might go off on the way back to Greenland, what has that got to do with anything? I dont know how long such a journey would take, Ive never been to the States. Grapes can last a couple of weeks and remember that in the late Viking Age/early Medieval time, they werent as fussed as us about their food. Besides, couldnt it be that they brought them back to prove to their friends that the land was as they described? This might be all babble, its admittedly been awhile since I read the story last, so if it says in it that they brought the fruit back to Greenland and ate it and it tasted delicious Im sorry and I appologise... The Imperial Mistress of the Night alias Ditte From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 7 23:55:17 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id XAA11821; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:55:16 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id XAA17184; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:54:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id XAA17180; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:54:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from hil-img-9.compuserve.com by svin02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id XAA26772; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:54:15 +0100 (MET) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-9.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.9) id RAA22489 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:53:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:42:28 -0500 From: Neil Good <105022.3530@compuserve.com> Subject: [EXP] Norse Discovery of America To: discovery Message-ID: <199712071742_MC2-2B16-4824@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I see it is popular to end E-mail messages with quotes. I'd like to begin this message with one; = "Skepticism which is commonly supposed to indicate superior sagacity is quite likely to result from imperfect understanding." It is by the American historian John Fiske. I'm not sure where he wrote it, but I think it may be in either Vol. 1 or 2 of his 1892, "The Discovery of America. Samuel Eliot Morison referred to this study as a "classic," and thought he could replace with his 1971, "The European Discovery of America, the Northern Voyages." (see p. vii). I think everyone truly familiar with Morison, and Fiske, will know that in some respects, Morison fell short of his mark. I do know the Norwegian Archeologist A.W. Brogger also felt the quote was worth passing along. Brogger included it as a heading to a chapter in his 1937 book "Vinlandsferdene," which, yes, discussed the Vinland controversy. I was going to put this message, or something like it, on Maphist, but after seeing all the comments about Vinland that have appeared, just today, on the "Discovery" list, I figure this might be the right time and place to ask a question that has been on my mind for a very long time. Has anyone ever seen, or better yet, does anyone have a copy of a small book titled, "Early American History: Norsemen before Columbus" (1964, Uni. of Oslo Press). It was written by Johannes Kr. Tornoe, a little known (I suspect), Norwegian maritime historian and sea captain. In it, he seriously proposed that Waquoit Bay, a small locked tidal on the south shore of Cape Cod, Massachusetts, could be the lake described in the Graenlendinga Saga. = While I can not agree with everything he had to say, I do believe there is a surprising amount of evidence to support Tornoe's theory about Waquoit Bay. An article about this bay titled, "Riverie de Champlain" is on the Maphist illustration page. http://kartoserver.frw.ruu.nl/HTML/STAFF/krogt/maphist.htm Tornoe's proposal attracted very little attention. Misunderstandings and/or prejudice about the true worth of the many theories placing Vinland in New England, and the "popularity" of the discovery at L'anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland, may have stood in the way. = However, Erik Wahlgren, long time Scandinavian languages professor at the University of Wisconsin, and assistant managing editor of the scholarly journal, "Scandinavian Studies" wrote, in a mixed review of Tornoe's book, (he found fault with Tornoe's arithmetic among other things), "When it comes to ships and navigation he has valuable things to tell us." Wahlgren also commented Tornoe's, "...maps and suppositions deserve consideration from a topographical point of view..." He ended the review with, "Read with two or three pinches of critical salt, Captain Tornoe's book is a stimulating contribution to creative thinking about the first known voyagers to North America." (Scandinavian Studies, Nov. 1965, p.378-9) Does anyone, anywhere, have this book? Its very important to me to have some idea of how many copies circulated. Now that I've gone ahead and asked the question, I'd like to close with another quote. It is from Arthur Middleton Reeves's "The Finding of Wineland the Good" (orig. pub. 1890 London, Reprint 1970 Burt Franklin, New York) In 1942 Einar Haugen, the well known Scandinavian languages professor described this book as "...the most comprehensive and unbiased piece of scholarship in the field." Fifty years earlier John Fiske said, "On reading it carefully through, it seems to me to be the best book we have on the subject in English, or perhaps in any language." (p.157, vol.1) Although it is difficult sometimes to appreciate just how important early studies in any field can be, both of these descriptions of Reeves's 100+ year old book are probably still true today. My favorite lines in it read: = "... the Wineland history if of the briefest, but brief as it is, it has been put in jeopardy no less by those who would prove too much, than by those who would deny all. It may not be unprofitable in the present = aspect of the question to appeal to the records themselves." (p. 6) (I'm interested in knowing if anyone has this book too) Sincerely, Neil Good 105022.3530@compuserve.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 8 00:42:56 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA12569; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:42:56 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA17410; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:42:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA17406; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:42:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from venus.le.ac.uk by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA09547; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:42:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from lupin.le.ac.uk by venus.le.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:38:31 +0000 Received: from LUPIN/SpoolDir by lupin.le.ac.uk (Mercury 1.31); 7 Dec 97 23:45:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from SpoolDir by LUPIN (Mercury 1.31); 7 Dec 97 23:44:45 +0100 (BST) From: Dittepigen To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 23:44:42 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [EXP] Norse Discovery of America X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Message-ID: <1F09A917F21@lupin.le.ac.uk> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Neil Unfortunately I have never heard of the books which you refer to, however I will be going to Denmark soon, (to visit family), I will try and see if I can get hold of them there, the chances should be bigger there Id suspect. Appologies to anyone who thought I was loosing my temper earlier this evening. I was trying to be ironic, but I have a feeling I didnt come across that way... Ditte From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 8 00:45:14 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA12590; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:45:14 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA17418; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:45:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA17414; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:45:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate22 by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA12339; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:44:59 +0100 (MET) Received: by mailgate22 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA09500; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:44:25 -0800 Message-Id: <199712072344.PAA09500@mailgate22> Received: from sdn-ts-004waseatp12.dialsprint.net(206.133.224.79) by mailfep3-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) id Q_10.1.1.8/Q_24035_1_348b34cf; Sun Dec 7 15:44:15 1997 From: "Paul D. Buell" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] claims to have "discovered" America Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:40:04 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Thesis topic? Good lord! Don't you need a collection of facts to write a thesis? No matter how one misinterprets the Columbus source, there can't be much more than conjecture. Paul D. Buell -----Original Message----- From: John Cromwell To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [EXP] claims to have "discovered" America >Hello folks, I have a friend who is studying Christopher Columbus' >journals and is convinced he has found excepts which he thinks mention >Columbus' encountering blacks in the Americas upon arrival. He is just >emberking on this as a possible thesis topic. But it seems strange that >no one hasn't stubbled upon this before. I assume by blacks, is meant >persons of African descent. > All criticisms and confirmations very encouraged on this one. > >Thanks, John Cromwell From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 8 01:02:51 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA12716; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 01:02:51 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA17454; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 01:02:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from svis01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA17450; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 01:02:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from sherman.shentel.net by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA12411; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 01:02:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from LOCALNAME (pm06a25.shentel.net [204.111.3.121]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA23557; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:05:57 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19971207190007.09bfe8e2@pop.shentel.net> X-Sender: gfisher@pop.shentel.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 19:00:07 To: discovery@win.tue.nl, discovery From: Gordon Fisher Subject: Re: [EXP] Norse Discovery of America In-Reply-To: <199712071742_MC2-2B16-4824@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR At 05:42 PM 12/7/97 -0500, Neil Good wrote: > [snip, snip] > >Does anyone, anywhere, have this book [by Torhoe] ? Its very important to me to >have some idea of how many copies circulated. Now that I've gone >ahead and asked the question, I'd like to close with another quote. It >is from Arthur Middleton Reeves's "The Finding of Wineland the Good" >(orig. pub. 1890 London, Reprint 1970 Burt Franklin, New York) In 1942 >Einar Haugen, the well known Scandinavian languages professor >described this book as "...the most comprehensive and unbiased piece >of scholarship in the field." Fifty years earlier John Fiske said, >"On reading it carefully through, it seems to me to be the best book >we have on the subject in English, or perhaps in any language." >(p.157, vol.1) Although it is difficult sometimes to appreciate just >how important early studies in any field can be, both of these >descriptions of Reeves's 100+ year old book are probably still true >today. My favorite lines in it read: > >"... the Wineland history if of the briefest, but brief as it is, it >has been put in jeopardy no less by those who would prove too much, >than by those who would deny all. It may not be unprofitable in the >present >aspect of the question to appeal to the records themselves." (p. 6) > >(I'm interested in knowing if anyone has this book too) > >Sincerely, >Neil Good >105022.3530@compuserve.com > > I just copied the following from the website http://www.bibliofind.com (I didn't find a copy of the Torhoe book advertised there. There was, however, a second book by Reeves (see below). Gordon Fisher gfisher@shentel.net Reeves, Arthur M. : FINDING OF THE WINELAND THE GOOD: THE HISTORY OF THE ICELANDIC ; [VINLAND]. Reeves, Arthur M. FINDING OF THE WINELAND THE GOOD: THE HISTORY OF THE ICELANDIC DISCOVERY OF AMERICA. London, Frowde, 1890. [7],205pp. Illus., phototype plates of the vellum mss. of the Sagas. Original vellum backed boards, vellum spine soiled, book plates removed. First edition. Contains chapters on Eric the Red, the Flatey book, Icelandic annals, fictions, Icelandic texts, etc. Larned 751: "... the work of an accurate, painstaking American study... taken altogether, this is by far the best work ont he Norse discovery of American for all English speaking students who cannot read the Sagas in the original." , VV RR (UR#:15092 ) Offered for sale by Michael Ginsberg Books at US$200.00 Reeves, A. M. et. al.: norse discoverr of america, THE ; Norrcena Society 1907 VG, repaired, ex lib, 73/350 cc, 10 photogravures, maps and plates, pict'l cover. part of Norrcena's Anglo-Saxon classsics. 53658 Offered for sale by Antiquarian Book Arcade & The Bohemian Bookworm at US$100.00 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 8 01:30:46 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA12818; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 01:30:46 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA17467; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 01:30:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin04.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA17463; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 01:30:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from vanakam.cc.columbia.edu by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA12802; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 01:30:03 +0100 (MET) Received: (from sks9@localhost) by vanakam.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA26278 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:29:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 97 19:29:59 EST From: Sarah K Schneewind To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:43:31 PST Message-ID: Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR On the grape question, is it possible they wanted the seeds, to try growing at home? Sarah Schneewind sks9@columbia.edu From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 8 04:28:12 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA26066; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:28:12 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA17610; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:27:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin08.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA17606; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:27:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.minn.net by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA10326; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:27:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-tc1-1.minn.net [208.16.84.101]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA15638 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:27:09 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> References: Conversation <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> with last message <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 22:21:12 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The wild grapes that grow around my farm in Minnesota bear little resemblance to anything growing in California or seen in supermarkets. They are small (~ 5 mm), fairly hard, not very juicy, and slow to ripen. I suspect that they are slow to spoil, too, although I've never tried an experiment. Since Greenland lacks native fruit of any kind, I'm not especially surprised that grapes like these (if that's what they were) would have been valuable in trade there. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > > Would anybody out there who believes there were vines and grapes in > Vinland please tell me why at least two or three Norse voyagers in the > sagas cut vines and grapes and loaded this cargo into their > ships to return with to Greenland. What a stinking, rotten mess it must > have been when they got there! And then they did it again! And no fair > dismissing it as a copyist error or a misinterpretation of later saga > tellers. > > Greg McIntosh > plusultra@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 8 04:43:34 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA26119; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:43:34 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA17625; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:43:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA17621; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:43:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.minn.net by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA28161; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:43:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-tc1-1.minn.net [208.16.84.101]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA16803 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:43:11 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <348ADE53.18C2@humboldt1.com> References: Conversation with last message <348ADE53.18C2@humboldt1.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus and Africans Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 22:42:17 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I suspect that the passage that your friend has in mind is this one, from Columbus's log: "y ellos ninguo prieto saluo dla color dlos canarios." [9v30-31] (And they are none of them dark, but of the color of the Canarians.) The word _prieto_ (dark) can have other connotations (e.g., mean, or compressed). This might lead someone to interpret that the natives seen were the color of Africans, since the Canary Islands are off the coast of Africa. However, there are two arguments against such an idea: 1) In a previous passage, Columbus says explicitly "y ellos son dla color dlos Canarios, ni negros ni blancos." [9r37-39] (And they are of the color of the Canarians, not black, not white.) This is a direct statement that indicates that the correct connotation of prieto is the conventional one, i.e., dark. 2) The native population of the Canary Islands (prior to Spanish conquest in the 15th century) were ethnically distinct, and most definitely not Negroid in their racial characteristics. Some of these people were still alive (and resisting the Spanish) when Columbus sailed, and he certainly knew about them and knew what they looked like. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > Hello folks, I have a friend who is studying Christopher Columbus' > journals and is convinced he has found excepts which he thinks mention > Columbus' encountering blacks in the Americas upon arrival. He is just > emberking on this as a possible thesis topic. But it seems strange that > no one hasn't stubbled upon this before. I assume by blacks, is meant > persons of African descent. > All criticisms and confirmations very encouraged on this one. > > Thanks, John Cromwell From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 8 13:38:11 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id NAA00200; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:38:11 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id NAA17939; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:35:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id NAA17935; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:35:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from venus.le.ac.uk by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id NAA11198; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:35:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from lupin.le.ac.uk by venus.le.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:20:38 +0000 Received: from LUPIN/SpoolDir by lupin.le.ac.uk (Mercury 1.31); 8 Dec 97 12:27:18 +0100 (BST) Received: from SpoolDir by LUPIN (Mercury 1.31); 8 Dec 97 12:25:06 +0100 (BST) From: Dittepigen To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:24:59 +0100 (BST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Message-ID: <1FD471A5AAE@lupin.le.ac.uk> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR > To: Discovery list > From: Keith Pickering > Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? > Date: Sun, 07 Dec 97 22:21:12 PST > Reply-to: discovery@win.tue.nl > The wild grapes that grow around my farm in Minnesota bear little > resemblance to anything growing in California or seen in supermarkets. > They are small (~ 5 mm), fairly hard, not very juicy, and slow to ripen. I > suspect that they are slow to spoil, too, although I've never tried an > experiment. > Since Greenland lacks native fruit of any kind, I'm not especially > surprised that grapes like these (if that's what they were) would have been > valuable in trade there. > Good point! Ditte > Keith Pickering > keithp@minn.net > > |====================================== > | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage > | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp > |====================================== > > ---------- > > > > Would anybody out there who believes there were vines and grapes in > > Vinland please tell me why at least two or three Norse voyagers in the > > sagas cut vines and grapes and loaded this cargo into their > > ships to return with to Greenland. What a stinking, rotten mess it must > > have been when they got there! And then they did it again! And no fair > > dismissing it as a copyist error or a misinterpretation of later saga > > tellers. > > > > Greg McIntosh > > plusultra@hotmail.com > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Dec 9 17:34:02 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA00215; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:34:02 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA20012; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:31:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin10.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA20008; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:31:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from vanakam.cc.columbia.edu by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA08874; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:31:15 +0100 (MET) Received: (from sks9@localhost) by vanakam.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17550 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:31:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 11:31:13 EST From: Sarah K Schneewind To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] claims to have "discovered" America In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 07 Dec 1997 10:35:15 -0700 Message-ID: Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR On the mention of "Blacks" in Columbus' journals, I don't know what word precisely was used, but the English "black" could refer to a person of any skin color darker than that of most Europeans, according to the OED. Even in the age of the 19th c. British empire in South Asia, it was used to refer to South Asians. Presumably the same broad range of menaing was found in other Euoropean languages. Sound slike a very long shot to me. Sarah Schneewind sks9@columbia.edu From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Dec 9 22:17:21 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA03166; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:17:21 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA20579; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:14:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin04.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA20575; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:14:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA03150; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:14:50 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 23113 invoked by uid 0); 9 Dec 1997 21:14:18 -0000 Message-ID: <19971209211418.23112.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:14:15 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] claims to have "discovered" america Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:14:15 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The book I referred to in an earlier missive is Leo Wiener, , 1922, reprint 1992. According to Wiener, p. 138, Martyr (Third Decade) and Gomara (Ch. 62) both remark on the Negroes living in Darien in the early sixteenth century. Wiener does not state whether he translated these two texts into English or if he used another’s. I have not checked Martyr’s original Latin or Gomara’s Spanish to see how accurate the translation is. I leave that research task to the interested party. But it looks like sub-Saharan black Africans were in Panama before Balboa. But were they precolumbian? There were, afterall, more voyages from the Old World to the New World between 1493 and 1513 than we have records. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Dec 9 22:27:03 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA03171; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:27:03 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA20587; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:26:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA20583; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:26:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA16589; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:26:45 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 24180 invoked by uid 0); 9 Dec 1997 21:26:10 -0000 Message-ID: <19971209212609.24176.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:26:06 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Norse Discovery of America Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:26:06 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Neil, I do not believe Tornoe can be called little-known. His previous book, Oslo (1965) is known to many Columbian scholars regarding CC's Iceland voyage. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Dec 10 00:01:03 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA04106; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:01:02 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA20710; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:00:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin10.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA20706; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:00:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA11957; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:00:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia76n.ncia.net [207.141.176.76]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA12279 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:59:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <348DCBC4.709F95FF@ncia.net> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:52:52 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] Acute Alzheimers disease X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Mind has gone blank. Will someone please remind me of the two magic words used to susbscribe to this discovery channel? Thanks, RB From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Dec 10 02:29:31 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA05037; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:29:31 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA20966; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:28:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbs01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA20962; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:28:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.minn.net by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA26263; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:28:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-215.Minn.Net [204.157.201.215]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA15433 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:28:49 -0600 Message-ID: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: [EXP] Columbus longitude lecture on the Web Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 20:27:43 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Those of you who are members of either the Society for the History of Discoveries or the Haklyut Society may recall that I gave a lecture to the combined annual meeting last August in St. John's, Newfoundland. That lecture proposed that Columbus's eclipse longitudes of 1494 and 1504 were actually derived via dead reckoning. The complete text of the lecture (including footnotes) is now available on the Web at: http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/shd973.htm Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Dec 10 20:10:24 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA27999; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:10:24 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA22485; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:08:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA22481; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:08:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svtt02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA28214; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:08:16 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 14116 invoked by uid 0); 10 Dec 1997 19:07:44 -0000 Message-ID: <19971210190744.14115.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:07:43 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Claims to have "discovered" America Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:07:43 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Austin Merdith asks: Austin, I will have to go back to my library tonight and look. I submitted this information about Wiener’s book as a response to a general question posted by someone asking about Black Africans in precolumbian America. This does not happen to be one of my main areas of research, so I hope I am not being viewed by you or others as a source of information on this topic. Hopefully, the person who originally posted the question is now obtaining Wiener’s book (by the way, the paperback reprint is probably still available by ordering through your local bookstore) and the books listed in the bibliography in Van Sertima’s book. Also, to reiterate something I had previously said: Wiener’s book is something of a bible to historians interested in this topic, meaning that many have referred to it. This is not a recommendation or endorsement by me as to the value of the book, accuracy of its statements, nor the validity of its arguments. It is merely an observation. So -- where does this statement come from? Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 11 18:10:18 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA24449; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:10:17 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA24328; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:08:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA24324; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:08:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from darius.concentric.net by svin02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA18521; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:08:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id MAA29553; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:08:33 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts011d05.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.17.17]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id MAA17458; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:08:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971211120542.00936100@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:05:42 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? In-Reply-To: References: <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Keith Pickering's suggestion of fibrous runt grapes as seen on his farm for Leif's cargo still leaves unanswered questions. Adam of Bremen described the product as "The noblest of wines," which I suppose is conceivable if unlikely. However, as Nansen pointed out, nobody on Greenland (or Iceland) knew how to make wine from grapes. Outside of these sagas, there is no suggestion that Greenlanders suffered from the lack of native fruit. The fact that Adam's description was written down centuries before the sagas were leaves room to question which direction the influence went. Jim. At 10:21 PM 12/7/97 PST, you wrote: >The wild grapes that grow around my farm in Minnesota bear little >resemblance to anything growing in California or seen in supermarkets. >They are small (~ 5 mm), fairly hard, not very juicy, and slow to ripen. I >suspect that they are slow to spoil, too, although I've never tried an >experiment. >Since Greenland lacks native fruit of any kind, I'm not especially >surprised that grapes like these (if that's what they were) would have been >valuable in trade there. > >Keith Pickering >keithp@minn.net > >|====================================== >| Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage >| http://www1.minn.net/~keithp >|====================================== > >---------- >> >> Would anybody out there who believes there were vines and grapes in >> Vinland please tell me why at least two or three Norse voyagers in the >> sagas cut vines and grapes and loaded this cargo into their >> ships to return with to Greenland. What a stinking, rotten mess it must >> have been when they got there! And then they did it again! And no fair >> dismissing it as a copyist error or a misinterpretation of later saga >> tellers. >> >> Greg McIntosh >> plusultra@hotmail.com >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 11 18:23:42 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA24734; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:23:41 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA24409; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:23:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin04.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA24398; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:23:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from dns1.mcn.org by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA24720; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:23:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from Win95.mcn.org (pm25-1-men-a11.mcn.org [204.189.12.69]) by dns1.mcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16863 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:23:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971211091216.0075a4f0@mail.mcn.org> X-Sender: oseeler@mail.mcn.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:12:16 -0800 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Oliver Seeler Subject: [EXP] A Christmas Story - Drake's Discovery of Fruitcake In-Reply-To: <19971210190744.14115.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hello All, For a Christmas story involving Francis Drake and the unfortunate discovery of that dreaded scourge of western civilization, fruitcake, go to: http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/fruitcake.htm Cheers, Oliver Seeler From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 11 19:30:41 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA25295; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:30:40 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA24609; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:29:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA24605; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:29:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svin02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA18770; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:29:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia84n.ncia.net [207.141.176.84]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA08820 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:28:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34902F3F.AE27C7CB@ncia.net> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:21:52 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971211120542.00936100@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR James Enterline wrote: > Keith Pickering's suggestion of fibrous runt grapes as seen on his > farm for > Leif's cargo still leaves unanswered questions. Adam of Bremen > described > the product as "The noblest of wines," which I suppose is conceivable > if > unlikely. However, as Nansen pointed out, nobody on Greenland (or > Iceland) > knew how to make wine from grapes. Outside of these sagas, there is > no > suggestion that Greenlanders suffered from the lack of native fruit. > The > fact that Adam's description was written down centuries before the > sagas > were leaves room to question which direction the influence went. > Jim. > > At 10:21 PM 12/7/97 PST, you wrote: > >The wild grapes that grow around my farm in Minnesota bear little > >resemblance to anything growing in California or seen in > supermarkets. > >They are small (~ 5 mm), fairly hard, not very juicy, and slow to > ripen. I > >suspect that they are slow to spoil, too, although I've never tried > an > >experiment. > >Since Greenland lacks native fruit of any kind, I'm not especially > >surprised that grapes like these (if that's what they were) would > have been > >valuable in trade there. > > > >Keith Pickering > >keithp@minn.net > > > >|====================================== > >| Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage > >| http://www1.minn.net/~keithp > >|====================================== > > > >---------- > >> > >> Would anybody out there who believes there were vines and grapes in > > >> Vinland please tell me why at least two or three Norse voyagers in > the > >> sagas cut vines and grapes and loaded this cargo into > their > >> ships to return with to Greenland. What a stinking, rotten mess it > must > >> have been when they got there! And then they did it again! And no > fair > >> dismissing it as a copyist error or a misinterpretation of later > saga > >> tellers. > >> > >> Greg McIntosh > >> plusultra@hotmail.com > >> > >> ______________________________________________________ > >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org > New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 Once they got back home with the grapes they may not have been a "stinking rotten mess." Such a supposition is entirely indefensible, especially since they may well have been "slow to spoil," as is the case with the Minnesota variety. They may have become raisins, for goodness sake! And what's this stuff about fruit? Grapes are berries, not fruit -- at least as the term is generally used. Also: if "Greenland lacks fruit of any kind," is/was scurvy endemic there? It's evident that this subject is in need of some clearer thinking. Another thing. Last time I flew over the southern tip of Greenland on the great circle route from Paris to Boston, I think I may have seen orange orchards on the ground. I wouldn't swear to it, of course. But it's worth looking into. Get into your dugouts, McIntosh and Enterline, check it out and send us all a postcard. Richard Burack P.O. Box 5 Jackson, NH 03846 (It's a little cramped living in a postoffice box. But you do what you have to do.). From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 11 19:54:03 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA25436; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:54:02 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA24649; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:53:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA24645; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:53:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA11307; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:44:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia84n.ncia.net [207.141.176.84]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA10123 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:52:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <349034E6.CFB6E80A@ncia.net> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:45:59 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] A Christmas Story - Drake's Discovery of Fruitcake X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.2.32.19971211091216.0075a4f0@mail.mcn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Oliver Seeler wrote: > Hello All, > > For a Christmas story involving Francis Drake and the unfortunate > discovery > of that dreaded scourge of western civilization, fruitcake, go to: > > http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/fruitcake.htm > > Cheers, > > Oliver Seeler We are, all of us, indebted to Oliver Seeler's educational commentary on the history of the fruitcake. Many of us have been unaware - I certainly was - that they may have been used as missiles. Until now I was under the impression thay were almost exclusively used as ballast stones, which sometimes found their way into foundations of old houses. There is such a house in an idyllic town in North Carolina, not far from Jamestown. The "ballast stones" on which it stands look for all the world like fruitcakes. Trouble is there were very many of them, and I'd always labored under the impression that there are only about a hundred fruitcakes in the whole world, and that the view that there is a greater number is an illusion because the hundred are in contant motion in the mail every Christmas season. Thank you, Oliver, for your most stimulating discussion of an otherwise hard and dismal subject. Richard Burack PO Box 5 Jackson, NH 03846 Now I really do have to go back to work. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 02:45:51 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA28804; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:45:50 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA25283; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:45:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from svis01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA25278; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:45:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA24189; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:45:06 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 11702 invoked by uid 0); 12 Dec 1997 01:44:37 -0000 Message-ID: <19971212014437.11701.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:44:36 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] 1448 Voyage From Norway to Wineland? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:44:36 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Richard, Where did you get <. . . the very last boat from Norway to Wineland sailed in 1448 . . .>? Can you cite a sourse? Or you mis-remembering (is that a word?) the 1347 Voyage from Greenland to Markland? Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 11 22:16:44 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA26347; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:16:43 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA24800; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:13:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin03.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA24796; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:13:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from darius.concentric.net by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA04490; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:12:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id QAA09322; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:12:59 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts013d23.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.17.131]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id QAA20269; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:12:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971211160948.0093a220@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:09:48 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? In-Reply-To: <34902F3F.AE27C7CB@ncia.net> References: <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971211120542.00936100@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR At 01:21 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Richard Burak wrote: >Last time I flew over the southern tip of Greenland >on the great circle route from Paris to Boston, I think I may have seen >orange orchards on the ground. I was there, Richard, and you are wrong. They were tobacco fields. You also wrote: Also: if "Greenland lacks fruit of any kind," is/was scurvy endemic there? No, it wasn't, and neither is it among the Eskimos. A diet including lots of blubber, which was indeed a supplement to the Norse dairy farming, seems to forestall scurvy. Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 00:23:35 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA28094; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:23:35 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA25111; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:22:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin10.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA25107; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:22:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA26272; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:22:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia112n.ncia.net [207.141.176.112]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA25615 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:21:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <349073F1.4B6199D0@ncia.net> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:14:58 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971211120542.00936100@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19971211160948.0093a220@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C744A6E660D9FDBE7E294A62" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR --------------C744A6E660D9FDBE7E294A62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Enterline wrote: > At 01:21 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Richard Burak wrote: > >Last time I flew over the southern tip of Greenland > >on the great circle route from Paris to Boston, I think I may have > seen > >orange orchards on the ground. > > I was there, Richard, and you are wrong. They were tobacco fields. > > You also wrote: > Also: if "Greenland lacks fruit of any kind," is/was scurvy endemic > there? > > No, it wasn't, and neither is it among the Eskimos. A diet including > lots > of blubber, which was indeed a supplement to the Norse dairy farming, > seems > to forestall scurvy. Jim. > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org > New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 No, no, no. You've got it all wrong. St. Brendan would have noticed tobacco and would have mentioned it. Thorvald Asvaldsson would never have allowed its cultivation -- he was founding member of the Greenland Watch and Ward Society. Neither tobacco nor alcohol ever passed his lips. Which is why he was outlawed in the summer of 981: he killed man he saw drinking raisin wine. Wineland is Vinland's original name. What you may have seen was a wineyard, known by some as a vinyard. Nor would the climate and soil support the growth of tobacco. Furthermore, the first missionaries to Wineland arrived in 1000 and tobacco would have been anathema to them. You realize, don't you. that there were papal Bulls forbidding the use of tobacco by clerics, threatening them with excommunication? They set a bad example for the flock, who came to church chewing, and they often spat on the floor. In Wineland there would have been puddles of frozen spittle all over the place and people would have slipped and fallen and broken their you-know-whats. And it would have been reported in the London Times, the Volkischer Beobachter and Le Monde. Faced with this sort of coherent argument, it's hard to imagine how you'll answer. Now if it wasn't a vinyard or grape arbor you saw, it's possible, I'll admit, that all that wine in Wineland was sent from Norway as payment for walrus tusks. That's a possibility. The only thing that militates against it is that, as I recall it, the very last boat from Norway to Wineland sailed in 1448, but even that is open to question. (The walrus tusk business, I might add, went on for hundreds of years and was threatened at one time by the illness of many walruses, one of the symptoms of which was loose tusks, pathognomonic of scurvy. It was not until the late nineteenth century that a specialist dentist was imported from Alabama to save the industry. His sucess was celebrated far and wide. They named the city of Tuscaloosa after him.) Vitamin C, ascorbic acid, is water soluble, not fat soluble. So, once again, you've got your science wrong. I don't know about you, Enterline. How often do you venture from W.95th Street and WKV2@amsat.org? Do they eat fruit where you live in New York City? Oh, I know they do at the Regency and fancy delicatessens like that -- but you know what I mean -- the everyday folk? Merry Christmas to you, anyway. And a happy New Year. See ya 'round the square, Dick --------------C744A6E660D9FDBE7E294A62 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Enterline wrote:
At 01:21 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Richard Burak wrote:
>Last time I flew over the southern tip of Greenland
>on the great circle route from Paris to Boston, I think I may have seen
>orange orchards on the ground.

I was there, Richard, and you are wrong.  They were tobacco fields.

You also wrote:
Also: if "Greenland lacks fruit of any kind," is/was scurvy endemic there?

No, it wasn't, and neither is it among the Eskimos.  A diet including lots
of blubber, which was indeed a supplement to the Norse dairy farming, seems
to forestall scurvy.   Jim.

James Enterline         jenterli@concentric.net
144 West 95th St.       KV2Z@amsat.org
New York NY 10025       Voice/Fax (212)865-9648

  No, no, no. You've got it all wrong. St. Brendan would have noticed tobacco and would have mentioned it. Thorvald Asvaldsson would never have allowed its cultivation -- he was founding member of the Greenland Watch and Ward Society. Neither tobacco nor alcohol ever passed his lips. Which is why he was outlawed in the summer of 981: he killed man he saw drinking raisin wine. Wineland is Vinland's original name. What you may have seen was a wineyard,  known by some as a vinyard. Nor would the climate and soil support the growth of tobacco.  Furthermore, the first missionaries to Wineland arrived in 1000 and tobacco would have been anathema to them. You realize, don't you. that there were papal Bulls forbidding the use of tobacco by clerics, threatening them with excommunication? They set a bad example for the flock, who came to church chewing, and they often spat on the floor. In Wineland there would have been puddles of frozen spittle all over the place and people would have slipped and fallen and broken their you-know-whats. And it would have been reported in the London Times,  the Volkischer Beobachter and Le Monde. Faced with this sort of coherent argument, it's hard to imagine how you'll answer.
    Now if  it wasn't a vinyard or grape arbor you saw, it's possible, I'll admit, that all that wine in Wineland was sent from Norway as payment for walrus tusks. That's a possibility. The only thing that militates against it is that, as I recall it, the very last boat from Norway to Wineland sailed in 1448, but even that is open to question. (The walrus tusk business, I might add, went on for hundreds of years and was threatened at one time by the illness of many walruses, one of the symptoms of which was loose tusks, pathognomonic of  scurvy. It was not until the late nineteenth century that a specialist dentist was imported from Alabama to save the industry. His sucess was celebrated far and wide. They named the city of Tuscaloosa after him.)
    Vitamin C, ascorbic acid, is water soluble, not fat soluble. So, once again, you've got your science wrong.
    I don't know about you, Enterline. How often do you venture from W.95th Street and WKV2@amsat.org? Do they eat fruit where you live in New York City?  Oh, I know they do at the Regency and fancy delicatessens like that -- but  you know what I mean -- the everyday folk?
    Merry Christmas to you, anyway. And a happy New Year.
    See ya 'round the square,
         Dick --------------C744A6E660D9FDBE7E294A62-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 01:05:36 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA28403; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:05:36 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA25185; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:05:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA25181; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:05:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA25246; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:05:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia112n.ncia.net [207.141.176.112]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA28697 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:04:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34907DE8.6F47DB2A@ncia.net> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:57:29 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? Oui. Tout le monde a France connaissent! X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971211120542.00936100@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19971211160948.0093a220@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR James Enterline wrote: > At 01:21 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Richard Burak wrote: > >Last time I flew over the southern tip of Greenland > >on the great circle route from Paris to Boston, I think I may have > seen > >orange orchards on the ground. > > I was there, Richard, and you are wrong. They were tobacco fields. > > You also wrote: > Also: if "Greenland lacks fruit of any kind," is/was scurvy endemic > there? > > No, it wasn't, and neither is it among the Eskimos. A diet including > lots > of blubber, which was indeed a supplement to the Norse dairy farming, > seems > to forestall scurvy. Jim. > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org > New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 Just in case I didn't make myself clear a minute or two ago, I'll repeat myself: Non, non, non. Vous l'avez tout mal. L'aureole Brendan aurait noté le tabac et l'aurait mentionné. Thorvald Asvaldsson n'aurait jamais permis sa culture -- il était membre fondateur de la société de "Watch et Ward" du Groenland. Ni le tabac ni l'alcool n'a jamais passé ses lèvres. Ce qui est pourquoi il a été proscrit en été de 981: il a détruit l'homme qu'il a vu le vin de raisin sec de boissons. Wineland est nom d'original de Vinland. Ce que vous avez pu avoir vu étiez un wineyard, connu par certains comme vinyard. Ni le climat et le sol supportent la croissance du tabac. En outre, les premiers missionnaires à Wineland sont arrivés dans 1000 et le tabac aurait été anathème à eux. Vous réalisez, pas vous qu'il y avait les taureaux papal interdisant l'utilisation du tabac par des ecclésiastiques, les menaçant par l'excommunication? Ils ont placé un mauvais exemple pour la bande, qui est venue à l'église mâchant, et ils ont souvent craché sur le plancher. Dans Wineland il y aurait eu des magmas de salive figée partout et les gens auraient glissé et tombé et cassés vous-connaissent-whats. Et on lui aurait enregistré dans les London Times, le Volkischer Beobachter et Le Monde. Confronté à ce tri d'argument logique, il est difficile d'imaginer comment vous répondrez. Maintenant si ce n'était pas un vinyard ou axe de raisin que vous avez vu, il est possible, j'admettra, que tout ce vin dans Wineland a été envoyé de Norvège comme paiement pour des défenses de walrus. C'est une possibilité. La seule chose qui milite contre elle est que, car moi la rappelle, le tout dernier bateau de Norvège à Wineland navigué dans 1448, mais même c'est discutable. (les affaires de défense de walrus, je pourrais ajouter, ont continué pour des centaines d'années et sont été menacé en même temps par la maladie de beaucoup de walruses, un dont des symptômes était les défenses lâches, pathognomonic du scorbut. Ce n'était pas jusqu' à la fin du dix-neuvième siècle qu'un dentiste de spécialiste a été importé d'Alabama pour sauvegarder l'industrie. Ses sucess ont été célébrés loin et au loin. Ils ont nommé la ville de Tuscaloosa après lui.) La vitamine C, acide ascorbique, est hydrosoluble et non en graisse. Ainsi, de nouveau, vous avez votre mal de la science. Je ne sais pas vous, Enterline. Combien de fois osez-vous de la rue de W.95th et du WKV2@amsat.org? Mangent-ils du fruit où vous vivez dans la ville de New York? Ah, je sais qu'ils font à Regency et à delicatessens de fantaisie comme que -- mais vous savez ce que veux dire je -- les gens journaliers? Joyeux Noël à vous, quoi qu'il en soit. Et une nouvelle année heureuse. Voir le ya ' autour de la place, Dick From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 03:31:53 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA00495; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:31:52 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA25309; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:31:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA25305; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:31:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA01529; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:31:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia104n.ncia.net [207.141.176.104]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA09598 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:30:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3490A019.60F842C1@ncia.net> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:23:21 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] 1448 Voyage From Norway to Wineland? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19971212014437.11701.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Gregory McIntosh wrote: > Richard, > > Where did you get <. . . the very last boat from Norway to Wineland > sailed in 1448 . . .>? Can you cite a sourse? Or you mis-remembering > > (is that a word?) the 1347 Voyage from Greenland to Markland? > > Greg McIntosh > plusultra@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com A "sourse?" Please explain. Im sorry, but I speak only English. RB From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 03:47:37 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA06892; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:47:36 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA25327; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:47:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin03.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA25323; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:47:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from darius.concentric.net by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA12471; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:47:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id VAA17161; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:47:02 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts012d12.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.17.72]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id VAA01735; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:46:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971211163400.00936e20@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:34:00 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: PS Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? In-Reply-To: <34902F3F.AE27C7CB@ncia.net> References: <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971211120542.00936100@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR And, Richard Burack, please send us your recipe for raisin wine. Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 05:22:02 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA07490; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:22:01 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA25402; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:21:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA25398; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:21:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA00938; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:21:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia124n.ncia.net [207.141.176.124]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA15476 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:20:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3490B9F7.1BFD9D64@ncia.net> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:13:44 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: PS Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971211120542.00936100@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19971211163400.00936e20@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR James Enterline wrote: > And, Richard Burack, please send us your recipe for raisin wine. > Jim. > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org > New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 Jim: It's been some years since I worked in Labrador, excuse me - Markland -- at the Grenfell Mission not far from Goose Bay. 1969, if memory serves me. I have the recipe somewhere about but cannot at the moment put my hands on ut. I'll look for it. Recollection is that is was quite like everyone else's recipe for the same. Dick. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 05:52:05 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA07531; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:52:04 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA25418; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:51:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin08.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA25414; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:51:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from new-murphey.tenet.edu by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA28028; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:51:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from [166.72.116.169] (slip166-72-116-169.tx.us.ibm.net) by new-murphey.tenet.edu (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40960U100000L30000S0) with SMTP id AAA28416 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:51:30 -0600 Message-ID: <34906E9E.2226@tenet.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:52:26 +0000 From: "Martha King" Organization: Regina Howell School,Beaumont ISD X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-STMJ (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? Oui. Tout le monde a France connaissent! References: <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971211120542.00936100@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19971211160948.0093a220@pop3.concentric.net> <34907DE8.6F47DB2A@ncia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Richard Burack wrote: > > James Enterline wrote: > > > At 01:21 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Richard Burak wrote: > > >Last time I flew over the southern tip of Greenland > > >on the great circle route from Paris to Boston, I think I may have > > seen > > >orange orchards on the ground. > > > > I was there, Richard, and you are wrong. They were tobacco fields. > > > > You also wrote: > > Also: if "Greenland lacks fruit of any kind," is/was scurvy endemic > > there? > > > > No, it wasn't, and neither is it among the Eskimos. A diet including > > lots > > of blubber, which was indeed a supplement to the Norse dairy farming, > > seems > > to forestall scurvy. Jim. > > > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > > 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org > > New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 > > Just in case I didn't make myself clear a minute or two ago, I'll > repeat myself: > > Non, non, non. Vous l'avez tout mal. L'aureole Brendan aurait > noté le tabac et > l'aurait mentionné. Thorvald Asvaldsson n'aurait jamais permis > sa culture -- il > était membre fondateur de la société de "Watch et Ward" du > Groenland. Ni > le tabac ni l'alcool n'a jamais passé ses lèvres. Ce qui est > pourquoi il a été > proscrit en été de 981: il a détruit l'homme qu'il a vu le vin > de raisin sec de > boissons. Wineland est nom d'original de Vinland. Ce que vous > avez pu avoir > vu étiez un wineyard, connu par certains comme vinyard. Ni le > climat et le sol > supportent la croissance du tabac. En outre, les premiers > missionnaires à > Wineland sont arrivés dans 1000 et le tabac aurait été anathème > à eux. Vous > réalisez, pas vous qu'il y avait les taureaux papal interdisant > l'utilisation du > tabac par des ecclésiastiques, les menaçant par > l'excommunication? Ils ont > placé un mauvais exemple pour la bande, qui est venue à l'église > mâchant, et > ils ont souvent craché sur le plancher. Dans Wineland il y > aurait eu des > magmas de salive figée partout et les gens auraient glissé et > tombé et cassés > vous-connaissent-whats. Et on lui aurait enregistré dans les > London Times, > le Volkischer Beobachter et Le Monde. Confronté à ce tri > d'argument logique, il est difficile d'imaginer comment vous > répondrez. > Maintenant si ce n'était pas un vinyard ou axe de raisin que > vous avez vu, il > est possible, j'admettra, que tout ce vin dans Wineland a été > envoyé de > Norvège comme paiement pour des défenses de walrus. C'est une > possibilité. > La seule chose qui milite contre elle est que, car moi la > rappelle, le tout > dernier bateau de Norvège à Wineland navigué dans 1448, mais > même c'est > discutable. (les affaires de défense de walrus, je pourrais > ajouter, ont continué > pour des centaines d'années et sont été menacé en même temps par > la maladie > de beaucoup de walruses, un dont des symptômes était les > défenses lâches, > pathognomonic du scorbut. Ce n'était pas jusqu' à la fin du > dix-neuvième > siècle qu'un dentiste de spécialiste a été importé d'Alabama > pour sauvegarder > l'industrie. Ses sucess ont été célébrés loin et au loin. Ils > ont nommé la ville de Tuscaloosa après lui.) > La vitamine C, acide ascorbique, est hydrosoluble et non en > graisse. > Ainsi, de nouveau, vous avez votre mal de la science. Je ne > sais pas vous, Enterline. Combien de fois osez-vous de la rue de W.95th > et du WKV2@amsat.org? Mangent-ils > du fruit où vous vivez dans la ville de New York? Ah, je sais > qu'ils font à > Regency et à delicatessens de fantaisie comme que -- mais vous > savez ce que > veux dire je -- les gens journaliers? > Joyeux Noël à vous, quoi qu'il en soit. Et une nouvelle année > heureuse. > Voir le ya ' autour de la place, > Dick Translate please! This is much too interesting to miss simply because I only speak English! Martha Kate King in Texas From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 09:05:25 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id JAA08584; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:05:23 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id JAA25493; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:04:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id JAA25489; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:04:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from ar.ar.com.au by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id JAA02120; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:04:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from syzygy.ar.com.au (dialup20.ar.com.au [203.18.148.20]) by ar.ar.com.au (8.7.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA20438 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:14:55 +1100 Message-ID: <3490F0F4.F45FEF97@AZENOMEI.ar.com.au> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:08:20 +1100 From: Peter R Booth Organization: Cha Ching! It's A Love Thing! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Lilliput and Dutch Cartography X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Greetings all This is my first post to this list, so hello to all of you. My question is this; Swift put the positions of Lilliput/Blefuscu about where modern day Maralinga sits in the state of South Australia, Australia. In one edition of Gulliver's Travel's is a map showing the islands...now he has the coastline of southern Australia drawn pretty well up to about the Yorke peninsula...what intrigues me is the source of Swift's information. According to history, Pieter Nuyts sailed eastward the most along Australia's southern littoral c. 1615-20 before turning around. Would Swift based his maps upon those used by Nuyts or another Dutch navigator? Considering the timeline, I wonder how this information would've filtered from the Netherlands to England, considering the state of affairs at the time. Any clues anyone? 'Later Peter -- Azenomei, live on ICQ UIN # 2822923 Love: Moments of screaming at one another interrupted by periods of sex. Note to people who add me to their ICQ lists. Let me add you back! This await authorisation crap sucks, OK? It is annoying! http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2822923 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 15:36:49 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id PAA17039; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:36:48 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id PAA25829; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:34:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id PAA25825; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:34:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svtt02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id PAA24563; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:33:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia127n.ncia.net [207.141.176.127]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA01162; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:33:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34914976.EA4BE9DE@ncia.net> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:26:00 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl, mkking@tenet.edu Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? Oui. Tout le monde en France connaissent! X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971211120542.00936100@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19971211160948.0093a220@pop3.concentric.net> <34907DE8.6F47DB2A@ncia.net> <34906E9E.2226@tenet.edu> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CF5C3A6B6F1C2E88395C5DE0" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR --------------CF5C3A6B6F1C2E88395C5DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Martha King wrote: > Richard Burack wrote: > > > > James Enterline wrote: > > > > > At 01:21 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Richard Burak wrote: > > > >Last time I flew over the southern tip of Greenland > > > >on the great circle route from Paris to Boston, I think I may > have > > > seen > > > >orange orchards on the ground. > > > > > > I was there, Richard, and you are wrong. They were tobacco > fields. > > > > > > You also wrote: > > > Also: if "Greenland lacks fruit of any kind," is/was scurvy > endemic > > > there? > > > > > > No, it wasn't, and neither is it among the Eskimos. A diet > including > > > lots > > > of blubber, which was indeed a supplement to the Norse dairy > farming, > > > seems > > > to forestall scurvy. Jim. > > > > > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > > > 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org > > > New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 > > > > Just in case I didn't make myself clear a minute or two ago, I'll > > repeat myself: > > > > Non, non, non. Vous l'avez tout mal. L'aureole Brendan > aurait > > noté le tabac et > > l'aurait mentionné. Thorvald Asvaldsson n'aurait jamais > permis > > sa culture -- il > > était membre fondateur de la société de "Watch et Ward" du > > Groenland. Ni > > le tabac ni l'alcool n'a jamais passé ses lèvres. Ce qui est > > > pourquoi il a été > > proscrit en été de 981: il a détruit l'homme qu'il a vu le > vin > > de raisin sec de > > boissons. Wineland est nom d'original de Vinland. Ce que > vous > > avez pu avoir > > vu étiez un wineyard, connu par certains comme vinyard. Ni > le > > climat et le sol > > supportent la croissance du tabac. En outre, les premiers > > missionnaires à > > Wineland sont arrivés dans 1000 et le tabac aurait été > anathème > > à eux. Vous > > réalisez, pas vous qu'il y avait les taureaux papal > interdisant > > l'utilisation du > > tabac par des ecclésiastiques, les menaçant par > > l'excommunication? Ils ont > > placé un mauvais exemple pour la bande, qui est venue à > l'église > > mâchant, et > > ils ont souvent craché sur le plancher. Dans Wineland il y > > aurait eu des > > magmas de salive figée partout et les gens auraient glissé > et > > tombé et cassés > > vous-connaissent-whats. Et on lui aurait enregistré dans les > > > London Times, > > le Volkischer Beobachter et Le Monde. Confronté à ce tri > > d'argument logique, il est difficile d'imaginer comment vous > > > répondrez. > > Maintenant si ce n'était pas un vinyard ou axe de raisin que > > > vous avez vu, il > > est possible, j'admettra, que tout ce vin dans Wineland a > été > > envoyé de > > Norvège comme paiement pour des défenses de walrus. C'est > une > > possibilité. > > La seule chose qui milite contre elle est que, car moi la > > rappelle, le tout > > dernier bateau de Norvège à Wineland navigué dans 1448, mais > > > même c'est > > discutable. (les affaires de défense de walrus, je pourrais > > ajouter, ont continué > > pour des centaines d'années et sont été menacé en même temps > par > > la maladie > > de beaucoup de walruses, un dont des symptômes était les > > défenses lâches, > > pathognomonic du scorbut. Ce n'était pas jusqu' à la fin du > > dix-neuvième > > siècle qu'un dentiste de spécialiste a été importé d'Alabama > > > pour sauvegarder > > l'industrie. Ses sucess ont été célébrés loin et au loin. > Ils > > ont nommé la ville de Tuscaloosa après lui.) > > La vitamine C, acide ascorbique, est hydrosoluble et non en > > graisse. > > Ainsi, de nouveau, vous avez votre mal de la science. Je ne > > > sais pas vous, Enterline. Combien de fois osez-vous de la rue de > W.95th > > et du WKV2@amsat.org? Mangent-ils > > du fruit où vous vivez dans la ville de New York? Ah, je > sais > > qu'ils font à > > Regency et à delicatessens de fantaisie comme que -- mais > vous > > savez ce que > > veux dire je -- les gens journaliers? > > Joyeux Noël à vous, quoi qu'il en soit. Et une nouvelle > année > > heureuse. > > Voir le ya ' autour de la place, > > Dick > > Translate please! > > This is much too interesting to miss simply because I only speak > English! > > Martha Kate King in Texas > Oh, I'm very sorry. I'm indebted to Larry Cruse, who wrote just after > me about a program that translates English to French and vice versa. > You access the program w:ith http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/ > The French is simply the translation of the English comments I had > just sent to Jim Enterline. This is doubtless still on your computer. > It's a pretty good program, remarkably good in fact, but you get some > awfully funny translations of English idiomatic expressions. I had to > fix up only a few words -- and probably introduced some grammatical > errors in doing so! (in the Subject, for example, I just changed the a > (it's supposed to have a grave accent mark over it) to en, which I > think is correct. > Hope this helps, RB --------------CF5C3A6B6F1C2E88395C5DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martha King wrote:
Richard Burack wrote:
>
> James Enterline wrote:
>
> > At 01:21 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Richard Burak wrote:
> > >Last time I flew over the southern tip of Greenland
> > >on the great circle route from Paris to Boston, I think I may have
> > seen
> > >orange orchards on the ground.
> >
> > I was there, Richard, and you are wrong.  They were tobacco fields.
> >
> > You also wrote:
> > Also: if "Greenland lacks fruit of any kind," is/was scurvy endemic
> > there?
> >
> > No, it wasn't, and neither is it among the Eskimos.  A diet including
> > lots
> > of blubber, which was indeed a supplement to the Norse dairy farming,
> > seems
> > to forestall scurvy.   Jim.
> >
> > James Enterline         jenterli@concentric.net
> > 144 West 95th St.       KV2Z@amsat.org
> > New York NY 10025       Voice/Fax (212)865-9648
>
>   Just in case I didn't make myself clear a minute or two ago, I'll
> repeat myself:
>
>            Non, non, non. Vous l'avez tout mal. L'aureole Brendan aurait
> noté le tabac et
>         l'aurait mentionné. Thorvald Asvaldsson n'aurait jamais permis
> sa culture -- il
>         était membre fondateur de la société de "Watch et Ward" du
> Groenland. Ni
>         le tabac ni l'alcool n'a jamais passé ses lèvres. Ce qui est
> pourquoi il a été
>         proscrit en été de 981: il a détruit l'homme qu'il a vu le vin
> de raisin sec de
>         boissons. Wineland est nom d'original de Vinland. Ce que vous
> avez pu avoir
>         vu étiez un wineyard, connu par certains comme vinyard. Ni le
> climat et le sol
>         supportent la croissance du tabac. En outre, les premiers
> missionnaires à
>         Wineland sont arrivés dans 1000 et le tabac aurait été anathème
> à eux. Vous
>         réalisez, pas vous qu'il y avait les taureaux papal interdisant
> l'utilisation du
>         tabac par des ecclésiastiques, les menaçant par
> l'excommunication? Ils ont
>         placé un mauvais exemple pour la bande, qui est venue à l'église
> mâchant, et
>         ils ont souvent craché sur le plancher. Dans Wineland il y
> aurait eu des
>         magmas de salive figée partout et les gens auraient glissé et
> tombé  et cassés
>         vous-connaissent-whats. Et on lui aurait enregistré dans les
> London Times,
>         le Volkischer Beobachter et Le Monde. Confronté à ce tri
>         d'argument logique, il est difficile d'imaginer comment vous
> répondrez.
>         Maintenant si ce n'était pas un vinyard ou axe de raisin que
> vous avez vu, il
>         est possible, j'admettra, que tout ce vin dans Wineland a été
> envoyé de
>         Norvège comme paiement pour des défenses de walrus. C'est une
> possibilité.
>         La seule chose qui milite contre elle est que, car moi la
> rappelle, le tout
>         dernier bateau de Norvège à Wineland navigué dans 1448, mais
> même c'est
>         discutable. (les affaires de défense de walrus, je pourrais
> ajouter, ont continué
>         pour des centaines d'années et sont été menacé en même temps par
> la maladie
>         de beaucoup de walruses, un dont des symptômes était les
> défenses lâches,
>         pathognomonic du scorbut. Ce n'était pas jusqu' à la fin du
> dix-neuvième
>         siècle qu'un dentiste de spécialiste a été importé d'Alabama
> pour sauvegarder
>         l'industrie. Ses sucess ont été célébrés loin et au loin.  Ils
> ont nommé la ville  de     Tuscaloosa après lui.)
>         La vitamine C, acide ascorbique, est hydrosoluble et non en
> graisse.
>         Ainsi, de nouveau,  vous avez votre mal de la science. Je ne
> sais pas vous, Enterline. Combien de fois osez-vous de la rue de W.95th
> et du WKV2@amsat.org? Mangent-ils
>         du fruit où vous vivez dans la ville de New York? Ah, je sais
> qu'ils font à
>         Regency et à delicatessens de fantaisie comme que -- mais vous
> savez ce que
>         veux dire je -- les gens journaliers?
>         Joyeux Noël à vous, quoi qu'il en soit. Et une nouvelle année
> heureuse.
>         Voir le ya ' autour de la place,
>                     Dick

Translate please!

This is much too interesting to miss simply because I only speak
English!

Martha Kate King in Texas

Oh, I'm very sorry. I'm indebted to Larry Cruse, who wrote just after me about a program that translates English to French and vice versa. You access the program w:ith  http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/  The French is simply the translation of the English comments I had just sent to Jim Enterline. This is doubtless still on your computer.
It's a pretty good program, remarkably good in fact, but you get some awfully funny translations of English idiomatic expressions. I had to fix up only a few words -- and probably introduced some grammatical errors in doing so! (in the Subject, for example, I just changed the a (it's supposed to have a grave accent mark over it) to en, which I think is correct.
Hope this helps, RB
   --------------CF5C3A6B6F1C2E88395C5DE0-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 17:22:02 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA18605; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:22:02 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA25961; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:20:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin04.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA25957; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:20:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA18592; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:20:36 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 3337 invoked by uid 0); 12 Dec 1997 16:20:02 -0000 Message-ID: <19971212162002.3336.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:20:01 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Lilliput and Dutch Cartography Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:20:01 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Peter R. Booth, Do not assume Swift made the maps. I recall reading somewhere that a cartographer made the maps, not Swift. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 18:18:34 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA19440; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:18:33 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA26016; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:16:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA26012; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:16:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from rio.com by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA06617; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:16:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from inti (p83.t0.rio.com [206.96.130.183]) by rio.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA09859 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:18:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Liz Oakley" To: Subject: [EXP] Web translator Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:17:45 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd0721$dcde18e0$01c8c8c8@inti> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0104_01BD06DE.CEBAD8E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0104_01BD06DE.CEBAD8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I tried to access that translator at = http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/ and got the forbidding message = that I did not have access to that server.=20 Any suggestions? Liz =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Liz Oakley WALKING TREE PRESS Pleasant Hill, Oregon lizoakley@walkingtree.com http://www.WalkingTree.com =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0104_01BD06DE.CEBAD8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I tried to access that = translator at=20 http://babelfish.altavis= ta.digital.com/ =20 and got the forbidding message that I did not have access to that = server.=20
Any=20 suggestions?
 
Liz
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Liz = Oakley   =20 WALKING TREE PRESS    Pleasant Hill, Oregon
lizoakley@walkingtree.com&n= bsp;   =20 http://www.WalkingTree.com=
 
------=_NextPart_000_0104_01BD06DE.CEBAD8E0-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 19:52:29 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA20239; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:52:29 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA26228; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:51:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbs01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA26224; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:51:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA21591; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:51:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from [146.115.194.168] by bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:51:30 -0500 X-Sender: reaston@bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:52:04 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: reaston@bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us (Robert W. Easton) Subject: [EXP] Recent Viking Raid Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Today in Worcester, Massachusetts, USA, a band of bold Vikings raided their school dining hall for the school's supply of desserts- It was Friday, and the raiders had carefully planned the event to get the best possible school dessert: ice cream sandwiches. The raid was the culmination of a day of testing, feasting and toasting (Tyr and Frigg were popular this year). The day began with tests of agility, (an obstacle course) , accuracy (in throwing), speed and strength, (relay race) (We tried to find a boulder to carry but settled for jugs of water). The feast consisted of stew, with bread and cider, and a minumum of utensils (and manners). The raid was a precision strike at the nerve center of the school; the kitchen crew caved in immediately, and gave up as much ice cream as they had. Several teachers were threatened by the bold warriors, and a number of them had dessert stolen right off their trays! Two slaves were taken to assist in the cleanup. This event was the culmination of 3 months of Viking study by third graders at Bancroft School. I'm sorry to be done with Vikings- they are a truly fascinating, but we must move on to our next explorer, Marco Polo (who may have been the biggest liar of his time). I am enjoying this new list very much! Happy Holidays to all- Robert Easton Robert W. Easton Bancroft School 110 Shore drive Worcester, MA USA 01605 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 20:34:22 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA20549; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:34:22 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA26271; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:33:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA26267; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:33:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from VMSrelay2.pcy.mci.net by svtt02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA05911; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:33:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from earth (usr7-dialup54.mix2.Boston.mci.net) by MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #10044) with ESMTP id <01IR38PNZBDC004TXS@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> for discovery@win.tue.nl; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:30:04 EST Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:29:07 -0500 From: Thomas Suarez Subject: [EXP] M Polo To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-id: <01IR38POK1B6004TXS@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Content-type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_Yjp/zXIRSrTW083j2y/fSw)" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Yjp/zXIRSrTW083j2y/fSw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Robert Easton writes : " . . . Marco Polo . . . who may have been the biggest liar of his time." Robert, Are you referring to Francis Wood's theory? Or have you any other reason for such a charge? --- T Suarez ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Suarez suarez@mci2000.com tel (914) 741-6155 fax (914) 741-6156 --Boundary_(ID_Yjp/zXIRSrTW083j2y/fSw) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Robert Easton writes :
" . . . = Marco Polo . . . who may have been the biggest liar of his = time."

Robert,
Are you referring to Francis Wood's = theory? Or have you any other reason for such a charge?

--- T = Suarez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Suarez
suarez@mci2000.com
tel (914) 741-6155
fax (914) 741-6156

--Boundary_(ID_Yjp/zXIRSrTW083j2y/fSw)-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 21:47:08 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA21682; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:47:07 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA26519; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:46:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from svis01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA26515; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:46:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA26344; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:46:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from [146.115.194.168] by bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:46:13 -0500 X-Sender: reaston@bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:46:47 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: reaston@bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us (Robert W. Easton) Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hi Tom, I'm sorry to say that I do not recall where I read the comment about Marco Polo- Much of what I read is secondary source intended for elementary school reading, and seldom a primary, or even a good academic source. The fact that I have a terrible memory doesn't help either... Please note that I said "may have." I don't really think that he made it all up. I will browse my collection for the remark. Robert Robert W. Easton Bancroft School 110 Shore drive Worcester, MA USA 01605 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 22:09:45 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA21884; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:09:44 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA26534; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:09:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA26530; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:09:17 +0100 (MET) Received: by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA18702; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:09:14 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199712122109.WAA18702@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:09:13 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: from "Robert W. Easton" at Dec 12, 97 03:46:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Robert W. Easton wrote: > > Hi Tom, > I'm sorry to say that I do not recall where I read the comment about Marco > Polo- Much of what I read is secondary source intended for elementary > school reading, and seldom a primary, or even a good academic source. The > fact that I have a terrible memory doesn't help either... Please note > that I said "may have." I don't really think that he made it all up. If this was on this list, it was in my message Re: Frauds and Hoaxes, where I write: ---------------------------------------- [snip] The following voyagers have been claimed to have been fraudulent, although the majority of historians do not think so: Marco Polo: Never was in China Frances Wood: Did Marco Polo Go to China? London: Secker & Warburg (1995) Ludovico di Varthema: Did not get further than east India source unknown Sebastian Cabot: 1508 voyage completely fraudulent Samuel Eliot Morison: The European Discovery of America. The Northern Voyages, A.D. 500-1600. New York: Oxford University Press (1971), [snip] ---------------------------------------- I too want to stress that this should not be taken to mean that I agree with any of the above theories (neither that I disagree with them). -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html There is no limit to human stupidity and the universe, although I am not sure about the latter. -- Albert Einstein From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 12 23:56:32 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id XAA22828; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:56:31 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id XAA26652; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:54:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id XAA26648; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:54:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu by svtt02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id XAA03326; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:54:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from aagaard02.u.washington.edu (wolfram@aagaard02.u.washington.edu [140.142.14.4]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id OAA34370 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:54:04 -0800 Received: from localhost (wolfram@localhost) by aagaard02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id OAA56938 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:54:04 -0800 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:54:02 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Buell" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR It seems a pity that in the field of history, often the most extreme and sensational theories seem to be the ones that gain the most enduring notice from the world at large (especially the media). Claiming Marco Polo to be a liar seems as extreme as claiming he tells the nothing but the "truth". We have in the Travels a document that is a mixture of events apparently witnessed by the author, some that the author heard but could not verify, added to the uncertainties caused by the translation, the fact that Marco Polo was in a strange country, in restricted company and may not have understood all of what he saw and heard. Yuan China was a strange place full of different worlds, Mongolian, Chinese, etc. It seems pretty clear that if he didn't go, someone did, and the account is no less interesting as a result. On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Robert W. Easton wrote: > Hi Tom, > I'm sorry to say that I do not recall where I read the comment about Marco > Polo- Much of what I read is secondary source intended for elementary > school reading, and seldom a primary, or even a good academic source. The > fact that I have a terrible memory doesn't help either... Please note > that I said "may have." I don't really think that he made it all up. > > I will browse my collection for the remark. > > Robert > > Robert W. Easton > Bancroft School > 110 Shore drive > Worcester, MA > USA 01605 > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 00:18:52 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA23547; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:18:51 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA26897; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:17:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA26893; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:17:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from namaste.cc.columbia.edu by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA24214; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:17:19 +0100 (MET) Received: (from sks9@localhost) by namaste.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA29757 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:17:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 18:17:18 EST From: Sarah K Schneewind To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:09:13 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I think the biggest problem with Marco Polo is not a lack of veracity, but an inability to notice anything important or write anything interesting. Is he really a good choice for students to read, I wonder? Sarah Schneewind sks9@columbia.edu From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 01:16:33 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA24227; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:16:32 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA27125; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:14:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from svis01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA27121; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:14:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA26861; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:14:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia72n.ncia.net [207.141.176.72]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA04577 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:13:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3491D1A3.87374AED@ncia.net> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:06:59 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Sarah K Schneewind wrote: > I think the biggest problem with Marco Polo is not a lack of veracity, > > but an inability to notice anything important or write anything > interesting. Is he really a good choice for students to read, I > wonder? > Sarah Schneewind > sks9@columbia.edu The mere fact that he was supposed to have reached the east coast of China (and bruited about the notions of a gold-plated Cypangu) played an enormous role in motivating d'Ailly and therefore Columbus to think that a westward voyage to the Orient was possible. Naturally, you have to throw in the underestimate of the world's circumference by Ptolemy and the use of Scripture as scientific fact by d'Ailly, but it could teach kids a lot about geography and how, for sometimes invalid reasons, explorers sail away and then discover things serendipitously. I don't know how old the kids are, but just to have a concept of the Three Princes of Serendip and the difference between the meanings of "fortuitous" and "fortunate" sounds worthwhile to me. It doesn't take more than a couple of weeks, if that. But, don't too quickly turn thumbs down on an individual who played an essential role in the the most important and revolutionary exploration/adventure this world (I'm counting out visits to moon and planets) has yet known. Each to his/her own taste, but I wish I'd been taught as a kid about Marco Polo's contribution to Christopher Columbus's Enterprise of the Indies. Richard Burack From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 01:38:19 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA24436; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:38:18 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA27178; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:37:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA27174; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:37:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from hotmail.com by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA21594; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:37:49 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 6419 invoked by uid 0); 13 Dec 1997 00:37:16 -0000 Message-ID: <19971213003716.6418.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:37:16 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:37:16 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Sarah Schneewind wrote: Assuming you meant Polo's and not your own or student's, Polo's book is important for many reasons. One reason is not what he wrote that we in the twentieth century find important ot unimportant in it, but, rather, what Europeans in the fourteenth through sixteenth centuries found important in it. Besides the prospect of wealth and spices, for medieval Europeans, Polo (along with a few others, such as, Mandeville) provided an eye-opening look at other, previously mysterious, parts of the world. Polo was the television of the late middle ages (if I may be permitted some hyperbole). We may argue about his accuracy or entertainment value or relevance to we moderns, but his impact upon the late medieval - early renaissance mind and his importance in the history of ideas is great. Try reading him while asking yourself who his audience was and what their world view must have been like and what effect he had upon them (and, thereby, upon us). Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 04:02:21 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA03931; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:02:20 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA27307; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:01:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA27303; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:01:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate32 by svtt02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA06874; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:01:25 +0100 (MET) Received: by mailgate32 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA10815; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:00:47 -0800 Message-Id: <199712130300.TAA10815@mailgate32> Received: from sdn-ts-003waseatp07.dialsprint.net(206.133.224.58) by mailfep1-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) id Q_10.1.1.4/Q_3445_1_3491fa51; Fri Dec 12 19:00:33 1997 From: "Paul D. Buell" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:56:07 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Re:MP's "inability to notice anything important or write anything interesting." If you mean by that that MP did not notice some of the things Francis Wood would have liked him to notice (foot binding, not then generally practiced, the great wall of China, which did not assume its present form until Ming times, long after MP, Chinese characters, which were very foreign to many in the government of Mongol China anyhow since it was highly Persianized, Turkicized and Mongolized), then I suppose your statement might be true. However, if one is, as I am, a specialist in Mongol China, then MP noticed a great many things that were important, from political structure in Mongol China, to imperial hunting, to imperial feasting, to many other things of great importance to me. In fact, I continue to find MP a gold mine of information a source of the greatest possible interest. And some of the very things that Francis Wood had problems with, for example, a Turkic name for a Chinese city, are some of the very things that prove the veracity of his account (nicknames of this sort were the rule, rather than the acception). Wood is no expert. Discount what she says. A good deal of the "problems" of MP can be eliminated too if one looks at the textual history of his work (complicated) and the environment in which his work appeared. He wrote for a courtly audience in a courtly manner and we probably do not have the original form of his book in any of our existing traditions. Another thing to take into consideration in considering MP is that we must have a proper view of Mongol China to understand his perspective. That is, it was not very Chinese neither was its elite. It is the world of this elite that MP reflects above all. And in the view that MP presents he is confirmed by many other sources, even Chinese accounts. Paul D. Buell From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 05:38:30 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA08174; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:38:30 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA27393; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:36:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin10.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA27389; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:36:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from VMSrelay4.pcy.mci.net by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA06432; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:36:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from earth (usr1-dialup40.mix2.Boston.mci.net) by MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #10044) with ESMTP id <01IR3RS2RCZM004SK3@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> for discovery@win.tue.nl; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:36:33 EST Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:34:45 -0500 From: Thomas Suarez Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-id: <01IR3RS846MG004SK3@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Content-type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_rOZ6crqI9w6IrnmB21JFHA)" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_rOZ6crqI9w6IrnmB21JFHA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sarah Schneewind wrote : "I think the biggest problem with Marco Polo is not a lack of veracity, but an inability to notice anything important or write anything interesting. Is he really a good choice for students to read, I wonder?" Sarah, Actually, I was surprised that Polo's book has (apparently) the reputation you cite. Polo's book is splendid reading, fascinating, informative, and a "must" for students. Students, however, need to bear in mind a few points : 1. Polo did not write the book. Ructichello, a romace writer did, and thus the text is embellished in the ways that were sure to sell the book. Rustichello was a professional at what he did --- commercially viable stories. 2. The book has, regretably, come to be known in English as the "Travels", giving a false sense that it was an itinerary or travel log in the strict sense. But it was originally entitled as a "description of the world", emcampassing Polo's purported travels as well as digressions to places he never claims to have gone (e.g., Java, and Madagascar) which sometimes can lead to some confusion of context. 3. Some scholars (e.g., Francis Wood) have raised legitimate questions about the veracity of Polo's story, e.g., there are some chronological glitches, and he never mentioned foot-binding or the Great Wall. Although I personally disagree with her conclusion that Polo reached no further than Persia, it is true that one needs to be cautious when reading it. 4. Even Wood acknowledges that the text, if not the result of Polo's own experience, is based on actual travel data gleaned from his Middle East hosts. In other words, the text is a valid source even if Marco were an imposter. For the "long" version, get the Yule-Cordier edition, available in two volumes in Dover reprint. If you have other things to do in life aside from reading Polo (!), get the shorter Latham translation, published by Penguin. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Suarez suarez@mci2000.com tel (914) 741-6155 fax (914) 741-6156 --Boundary_(ID_rOZ6crqI9w6IrnmB21JFHA) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Sarah Schneewind wrote :
"I = think the biggest problem with Marco Polo is not a lack of = veracity,
but an inability to notice anything important or write = anything
interesting.  Is he really a good choice for students = to read, I
wonder?"

Sarah,

Actually, I was = surprised that Polo's book has (apparently) the reputation you = cite.

Polo's book is splendid reading, fascinating, informative, = and a "must" for students.

Students, however, need to = bear in mind a few points :

1. Polo did not write the book. = Ructichello, a romace writer did, and thus the text is embellished in = the ways that were sure to sell the book. Rustichello was a professional = at what he did --- commercially viable stories.

2. The book has, = regretably, come to be known in English as the "Travels", = giving a false sense that it was an itinerary or travel log in the = strict sense. But it was originally entitled as a "description of = the world", emcampassing Polo's purported travels as well as = digressions to places he never claims to have gone (e.g., Java, and = Madagascar) which sometimes can lead to some confusion of = context.

3. Some scholars (e.g., Francis Wood) have raised = legitimate questions about the veracity of Polo's story, e.g., there are = some chronological glitches, and he never mentioned foot-binding or the = Great Wall.  Although I personally disagree with her conclusion = that Polo reached no further than Persia, it is true that one needs to = be cautious when reading it.

4. Even Wood acknowledges that the = text, if not the result of Polo's own experience, is based on actual = travel data gleaned from his Middle East hosts. In other words, the text = is a valid source even if Marco were an imposter.

For the = "long" version, get the Yule-Cordier edition, available in two = volumes in Dover reprint. If you have other things to do in life aside = from reading Polo (!), get the shorter Latham translation, published by = Penguin.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Suarez
suarez@mci2000.com
tel (914) 741-6155
fax (914) 741-6156

--Boundary_(ID_rOZ6crqI9w6IrnmB21JFHA)-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 06:03:47 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id GAA08283; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:03:46 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id GAA27410; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:02:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id GAA27406; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:02:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from VMSrelay4.pcy.mci.net by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id GAA09939; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:02:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from earth (usr12-dialup4.mix2.Boston.mci.net) by MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #10044) with ESMTP id <01IR3SOZWU1E00522O@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> for discovery@win.tue.nl; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:02:10 EST Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:00:46 -0500 From: Thomas Suarez Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-id: <01IR3SP0HPMS00522O@MAIL-RELAY.PCY.MCI.NET> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Content-type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_e0N2sB9Eh+DoPxiEE+zdWg)" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_e0N2sB9Eh+DoPxiEE+zdWg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit After I posted my last bit about Polo, I received Paul Buell's posting. Paul said it all 37 times better than I did. While I agree with his criticisms of Francis Wood's reasoning regarding foot-binding and the Wall, to give the benefit-of-the-doubt to Wood (which perhaps I try too hard to do), Odoric DOES clearly refer to foot-binding. Thus a question for Paul Buell --- did the practice of foot-binding increase shortly after Polo, when Odoric was there? I like to divide Polo's book into three categories of accuracy --- those that came directly from his own observation, which have proven themselves to be admirably reliable (e.g., a Chinese document discovered earlier this century actually corroborates the names given by Polo of the leaders of his voyage from Zaiton [China] to Persia) ; those that he himself reported, but from heresay rather than from direct observation (such as an Arabian Nights inspired tale of birds on Madagascar which carry elephants away) ; and pure extraneous embellishments (such as formula descriptions of battles) which appear to have been added by his writer Rustichello to embellish sections dealing with the less "exotic" Near East, rather than the Far East. --- T Suarez ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Suarez suarez@mci2000.com tel (914) 741-6155 fax (914) 741-6156 --Boundary_(ID_e0N2sB9Eh+DoPxiEE+zdWg) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

After I posted my last bit about Polo, = I received Paul Buell's posting.

Paul said it all 37 times better = than I did.

While I agree with his criticisms of Francis Wood's = reasoning regarding foot-binding and the Wall, to give the = benefit-of-the-doubt to Wood (which perhaps I try too hard to do), = Odoric DOES clearly refer to foot-binding.

Thus a question for = Paul Buell --- did the practice of foot-binding increase shortly after = Polo, when Odoric was there?

I like to divide Polo's book into = three categories of accuracy --- those that came directly from his own = observation, which have proven themselves to be admirably reliable = (e.g., a Chinese document discovered earlier this century actually = corroborates the names given by Polo of the leaders of his voyage from = Zaiton [China] to Persia) ;  those that he himself reported, but = from heresay rather than from direct observation (such as an Arabian = Nights inspired tale of birds on Madagascar which carry elephants away) = ;  and pure extraneous embellishments (such as formula descriptions = of battles) which appear to have been added by his writer Rustichello to = embellish sections dealing with the less "exotic" Near East, = rather than the Far East.

--- T = Suarez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Suarez
suarez@mci2000.com
tel (914) 741-6155
fax (914) = 741-6156


--Boundary_(ID_e0N2sB9Eh+DoPxiEE+zdWg)-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 06:37:22 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id GAA08700; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:37:21 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id GAA27430; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:35:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbs01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id GAA27426; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:35:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from darius.concentric.net by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id GAA08178; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:35:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id AAA04330; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:35:38 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts003d24.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.15.132]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id AAA21104; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:35:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971213003339.00901380@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:33:39 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: [EXP] M. Polo and Vinland Map In-Reply-To: <199712130300.TAA10815@mailgate32> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Skeptics of Marco Polo will soon be trumpeting the secret manuscript of 13th century Jacob of Ancona, published as "City of Light" by David Selbourne. The assertion is that this hitherto unknown manuscript was the actual source for many of Marco's claims and observations. Selbourne says that he was allowed to read and translate the manuscript only on condition that he not show the original or reveal the owner's identity. Begin to see the reason for this posting's heading? It gets better. Jacob of Ancona is said to have been an Italian Jewish merchant who wrote about his travel to southeast China. On the way, along the Persian Gulf, Jacob came across a Jewish ghetto, which he referred to with the Arabic term "Mellah" because the word "Ghetto" had not yet come into use. However, critics say that neither had the word "Mellah." The root of this word is salt, and the Jewish application sprang from a community of Jews who after 1438 settled near a salt marsh in Fez, Morocco. This anachronism, say the critics, is like finding the word "Oldsmobile" in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Or, some might say, like finding uniformly precipitated anatase titanium dioxide in an ink purporting to be from 1440. More on the controversy, although little more of scholarly value, may be found in the December 9th New York Times, page A9. Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 14:15:58 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id OAA10285; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:15:56 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id OAA27683; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:13:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin10.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id OAA27679; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:13:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from ar.ar.com.au by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id OAA07531; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:13:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from syzygy.ar.com.au (dialup31.ar.com.au [203.18.148.31]) by ar.ar.com.au (8.7.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA10477 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:24:11 +1100 Message-ID: <349289B6.93C2F9E5@AZENOMEI.ar.com.au> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:12:22 +1100 From: Peter R Booth Organization: Cha Ching! It's A Love Thing! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Lilliput and Dutch Cartography X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19971212162002.3336.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Gregory McIntosh wrote: > > Peter R. Booth, > > Do not assume Swift made the maps. I recall reading somewhere that a > cartographer made the maps, not Swift. > You didn't read my post properly...I know Swift didn't make the maps...what I'm curious to learn is how he may have obtained Dutch maps, considering the political/information climate at the time... 'Later Peter -- Azenomei, live on ICQ UIN # 2822923 (when it #@#$%#@ works!) Love: Moments of screaming at one another interrupted by periods of sex. Killfiles are for pussies, delete buttons are for men http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2822923 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 18:02:14 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA10885; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:02:13 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA27840; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:59:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA27836; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:59:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from darius.concentric.net by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA02634; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:59:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id LAA29037; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:59:33 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts003d47.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.15.155]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id LAA22595; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:59:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:57:46 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: PS Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? In-Reply-To: <3490B9F7.1BFD9D64@ncia.net> References: <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971211120542.00936100@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19971211163400.00936e20@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Would Keith Pickering please tell us if he has ever seen his Minnesota wild grapes turn into useable raisins on the vine? If not, could he make an estimate of the number of man-hours as well as total elapsed time required to pick ripe grapes off the vine, deploy them in drying pans and tend and protect them while the sun does its work - enough to fill a boat? Remember that while this was going on the expedition's crew was engaged on alternate days cutting timber, a very cherished commodity on Greenland and Iceland. Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 19:23:39 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA11241; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:23:38 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA27896; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:21:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbs01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA27892; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:21:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from bonjour.cc.columbia.edu by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA08314; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:21:02 +0100 (MET) Received: (from sks9@localhost) by bonjour.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA18690 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:21:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 13:21:00 EST From: Sarah K Schneewind To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:06:59 -0500 Message-ID: Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I certainly don't object to them learning about him, but I, as a grad student studying Chinese history, found his Travels exceptionally dull. If there is time to do any literature in connection with what is presumably a social studeis unit, I wonder how Italo Calvino's Invisible Cities would work, an absolutely beautiful book. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 19:23:43 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA11246; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:23:42 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA27904; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:22:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA27900; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:22:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from bonjour.cc.columbia.edu by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA10674; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:22:26 +0100 (MET) Received: (from sks9@localhost) by bonjour.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA18826 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:22:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 13:22:27 EST From: Sarah K Schneewind To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:37:16 PST Message-ID: Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Again, I am not disputing his historical importance to European knowledge etc, but only the value of having what seemed to be high school students read him. Sarah Schneewind From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 20:26:31 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA11774; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:26:30 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA27944; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:23:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin10.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA27940; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:23:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from bbs.doruk.com.tr by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA08551; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:23:24 +0100 (MET) From: janissary To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Lilliput and Dutch Cartography Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 21:24:57 In-Reply-To: Peter R Booth Comment: Turkce karekter filtresinden gecirildi. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <9712132121.aa07967@bbs.doruk.com.tr> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR >Gregory McIntosh wrote: >You didn't read my post properly...I know Swift didn't make the >maps...what I'm curious to learn is how he may have obtained Dutch maps, >considering the political/information climate at the time... My guess is that Swift got them from the same being(s) that clued him in onto the (accurate) orbital data of Mars' two satellites, Demos and Phoebos. But that's just my guess... Bob From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 21:02:43 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA12333; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:02:42 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA27964; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:00:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbs01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA27960; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:00:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from arl-img-9.compuserve.com by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA19901; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:00:07 +0100 (MET) Received: (from root@localhost) by arl-img-9.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.9) id OAA20257 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:59:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:42:52 -0500 From: Neil Good <105022.3530@compuserve.com> Subject: [EXP] J. Tornoe & Vinland To: discovery Message-ID: <199712131443_MC2-2BDD-2501@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR It has taken a while to respond, but I agree with Greg McIntosh (12/5/97)= about setting guidelines before attempting to relocate Vinland. All the different categories of "Vinland" he listed deserve attention. Most people, I think, are interested in "Leifsbudir" of the Graenlendinga= Saga, and "Hop," the landlocked tidal bay described in Eirik's Saga. (Many researchers have suggested on good grounds this saga might be better called Karlsefni's Saga.) Although there is always a "stigma" attached to attempts to locate these two sites, especially if the effort extends anywhere south of the US/Canadian border, searching for them is still, in every sense of the term, a legitimate pursuit. I should have been a bit clearer in my message on 12/07/97 about the books by Johannes Kr. Tornoe ("Early American History: Norsemen before Columbus," Uni.of Olso, 1964), and Arthur M. Reeves's "The Finding of Wineland the Good," (Frowde, 1890; reprint, Burt Franklin, 1970). I already have copies. I would like to find out if anyone else has them. Greg said on 12/9/97 Tornoe's 1965 book "Columbus in the Arctic? and the Vineland Literature" is well known to Columbus researchers. That may not be such a good thing. I believe some of Tornoe's ideas in that book did not go over so well, judging from a highly critical review of it that appeared in Geographical Journal (#132, 1966, pg. 142-3). = I have seen "Columbus in the Arctic?" turn up in a few bibliographies. "Early American History" does too, but not often. It did appear in the bibliography of the Viking Ship Museum's "Viking Voyages to North America" (Roskilde, Denmark, 1993). But because the books seem to be "scarce," I suggested on 12/7/97 Tornoe might be, "...a little known (I suspect), Norwegian maritime historian and sea captain." The book by A.M. Reeves is well known, but also seems to be hard to come by. It is the only book intended for English readers that has reproductions of the actual saga manuscript pages alongside "normalized" Old Norse printed text. If a person is truly interested in this subject, this book (not to mention many others) is an absolute must read. Anyone who attempts to write on any subject involving history could learn by Reeves's example. But I will dare to say Tornoe's "Early American History," which pinpoints Waquoit Bay, Massachusetts, is, despite some flaws, an essential book for anyone interested in getting to bottom of the Vinland controversy. He pointed out many things about the bay and the account set down in the G. Saga that make sense. It might be important to keep in mind that Tornoe was a very experienced sailor. For some thoughts on the importance of practical experience when talking about this subject see G.J. Marcus's "The Conquest of the North Atlantic" (Oxford, 1980 p. xii). However unlikely some of Tornoe's "scholarly" conclusions about either Vinland or Columbus may seem today, his views on another interesting, but unrelated, controversy regarding early Norse seamanship were well received in 1937. (See "Hvitserkr," Geographical Journal #89, 1937, pg. 552-556.) There is quite a bit of evidence to support Tornoe's theory about Waquoit Bay. He was unaware of much of it. Presenting it all, over thirty years later, may take a while- possibly two or three weeks. A potentially important factor in favor of this theory is that many credible researchers believe Leifsbudir and Hop may have actually been a single location. A full discussion explaining why would require a study of the relationship between the two sagas. For the moment it might do to simply provide some quotes. In "Northern Mists," Carl Sauer, the highly respected American geographer said, "Hop is much like Leifsbudir in location, climate, and events.... The resemblance to Leifsbudir has often been remarked." (Uni. of Calif. 1968, p.117, 137.= ) In 1921, G. M. Gathorne-Hardy, the English researcher (I believe he was Assistant, or Head Librarian for the House of Lords, is there anyone in G.B. who could check on this?), said; "When we come to the consideration of the situation of Hop, in connection with Karlsefni's expedition, we shall, I think, be perfectly justified in supplementing the description of this place from what we are told of Leif's landfall. The two places are obviously identical." ("The Norse Discoverers of America," Oxford, reprinted 1970, p.253.) While Tornoe briefly commented on the similarities between Waquoit Bay and the description of Hop ("It [Waquoit Bay] resembles the 'Hop' Lagoon which is described in Thorfinn Karlsefne's saga and which he used as a harbor." p. 63), he located "Hop" farther south in the area of Chesapeake Bay. He would have been better off if he had not spread himself, and the Norsemen, too far and too thin. There is virtually no support for theories that push the Norse that far south. = Some people feel southern New England is also too far south. But it is interesting to add here that even Helge Ingstad, who found the site at L'anse aux Meadows in the 1960's, went on record in his 1959 book "Land Under the Pole Star," as saying T. Karlsefni very probably reached southern New England. (Trans. Naomi Walford. St. Martins, 1966, p. 166.) The description of Hop in Eirik's Saga agrees with Waquoit Bay, and to a high degree. This may sound like a hollow claim now but there is a great deal of evidence to support it. It is only possible to cover some of it here. First and foremost the bay is a classic textbook example of what an Icelandic "Hop" is supposed to be. In his 1914 "Voyages of the Norsemen to America," William Hovgaard provided this definition of the word; "In Old Norse the term 'hop' has a definite meaning, referring to an inlet, fiord, or harbor, characterized by a narrow entrance, often the outlet of a river, and widening out inside, not far from the entrance, to a larger expanse of water, frequently a lake, or lagoon, into which a river empties." (p. 235.) Cleasby, Vigfusson and Craigie's "Icelandic-English Dictionary," (1st edit. 1874; 2nd edit. 1957; reprint 1986) gives this definition; = HOP, n. [A.S. 'hop'; Scot. 'hope'=3D haven; perhaps connected with A.S. 'hop', Engl. 'hoop', with reference to 'a curved' or 'circular form']: - 'a small landlocked bay or inlet', connected with the sea so as to be salt at flood and fresh at ebb, Thorf. Karl. 420, freq. in mod. usage." An example of a true "Hop" to compare Waquoit Bay against is at the the southern end of the Hunafloi on the northwest coast of Iceland. This "Hop", which actually goes by that name, is roughly 7.6 km N/S by 6.8 km E/W. Waquoit Bay, on the other hand, is only about 3.2 km N/S by 1.6 km E/W. It is smaller, but it is a picture perfect "Hop" just the same. There is more involving the saga description about sandbars lying at the mouth of the inlet to "Hop," and the report that ships could only enter it at high tide that factor into this later. Other features within= Waquoit Bay should be mentioned now. Eirik's Saga reads at one point, "Karlsefni and his men had built their settlement on a slope by the lakeside; some of the houses were close to the lake, and others were farther away." (Magnusson and Palsson, "The Vinland Sagas," 1965, p. 98.) = In 1980 the Massachusetts Department of Environmental Management produced a formal "Landscape Analysis" of Washburn Island, which forms most of Waquoit Bay's western shoreline. It reads in part; "Slopes over 15% generally occur along the shoreline adjacent to coastal banks.... Steep slopes often provide dramatic views away from the island, and are in turn highly visible features from adjacent areas." "Coastal Banks provide dramatic elevated views from the island, and are presently popular spots for camping and visiting." Eirik's saga also mentions a "nesit," i.e., a "point," or "headland," three times, and always in connection with the native skraelings when they approach or leave the Norse settlement in their "skin-boats." They either "...come from the south around the headland," or they return "...to the south around the headland." Reeves's translation at one point reads, the "skin boats," were, "...so numerous, that it looked as if coals had been scattered broadcast out before the bay..." (p. 47). On Waquoit Bay's eastern shoreline, and slightly south of the east- west center line, is the tip of a narrow strip of land, Seconsett Island. It is about .8 km long by 100 meters wide. In every respect it qualifies as a "point" or "headland." Einar Haugen, the late Harvard Scandinavian languages professor raised an interesting and important question in a paper he wrote challenging the 1970's view that L'anse aux Meadows was the final word on the Vinland controversy. He asked, "what has become of the huge population of hostile natives?" ("Was Vinland in Newfoundland?" Proceedings of the Eighth Viking Congress, August 1977, Uni. of Odense Press, 1981, p. 5.) Archaeologists believed then, as they do now, that no evidence exists to suggest large or even smaller numbers of natives lived in the area near L'anse aux Meadows when the Norse were there. There is on the other hand overwhelming evidence to show Indians lived on Cape Cod around the same time. An archaeologist would have to go no further that Waquoit Bay to prove it. The area in and around the bay has always been known as a place where Indian artifacts such as arrowheads, spear points, tomahawk heads, net sinkers, etc., can be found quite easily. Human skulls and other bones have been found on many occasions eroding from the 15 meter high cliff at the northern end of the bay. Indian burials have also been found, accidently and frequently, on other land nearby. This is admittedly not the type of information archaeologists like to have revealed, for fear "pothunters" will descended upon a place, but in the case of Waquoit Bay it has been common knowledge for close to 100 years or more. = This heavy concentration of Indian artifacts is not presented as anything remarkable. The area around Waquoit Bay is easily recognized as having provided an ideal ecological environment for American Indians (and probably the same conditions the 11th century Norse would have looked for). In 1757 a well traveled missionary, assigned by the "Society for Propagating the Gospel among the Indians of North America," was sent to the area in and around Waquoit. He reported; "There is no place I ever saw, so adapted to an Indian town as this." Another official sent by the Governor of Massachusetts in 1834 to check on the condition of the natives near Waquoit said essentially the same thing; "It is hardly possible to find a place more favorable for gaining a subsistence without labor than [this] territory." = (F. Freeman, "History of Cape Cod," vol.1, 1869, p. 685.) What MAY be remarkable in light of the common misconception that native Americans have virtually disappeared from the eastern United States, is that Indians are alive and well, and close by Waquoit Bay today. Nearly the entire eastern shore of the bay, Seconsset Island included, falls within the town of Mashpee, the Cape Cod town that was formally recognized as early as 1665 as a distinct and separate Indian "plantation." Its Indian history is very long and very well documented.= Ever since 1665, and no doubt long before, Mashpee has been an important home to Cape Cod's Wampanoag Indians and is one of the few Indian communities to survive on the eastern seaboard of the United States. Of course this does not necessarily help to identify Waquiot Bay as a Norse settlement site, but it does not hurt either. There may be more to this aspect of this theory than space allows. = If, and only if, Johannes Kr. Tornoe was correct in identifying Waquiot Bay as "Leifsbudir," the answer to Einar Haugen's question; "What has become of the huge population of natives?" might in this case be; Nothing at all really, they are still there today. Neil Good 105022.3530@compuserve.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 21:02:53 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA12338; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:02:52 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA28043; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:01:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin08.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA28039; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:01:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.minn.net by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA12475; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:01:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-227.minn.net [205.198.124.39]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA27378 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:01:33 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> References: Conversation <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> with last message <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: PS Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 14:51:42 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I've never seen wild grapes turn to raisins on the vine. But then again, I haven't studied them closely. I would not care to hazard an estimate on the amount of labor needed to turn grapes into raisins. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > Would Keith Pickering please tell us if he has ever seen his Minnesota wild > grapes turn into useable raisins on the vine? If not, could he make an > estimate of the number of man-hours as well as total elapsed time required > to pick ripe grapes off the vine, deploy them in drying pans and tend and > protect them while the sun does its work - enough to fill a boat? Remember > that while this was going on the expedition's crew was engaged on alternate > days cutting timber, a very cherished commodity on Greenland and Iceland. > Jim. > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org > New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 21:42:11 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA13290; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:42:11 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA28110; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:40:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbs01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA28106; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:40:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate32 by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA25010; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:40:11 +0100 (MET) Received: by mailgate32 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA27541; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:39:36 -0800 Received: from sdn-ts-002waseatp09.dialsprint.net(206.133.224.44) by mailfep1-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) id Q_10.1.1.4/Q_19845_1_3492f280; Sat Dec 13 12:39:28 1997 From: "Paul D. Buell" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:35:00 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd0806$9566a500$2ce085ce@chono> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01BD07C3.87436500" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BD07C3.87436500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But, again, be aware the a footbinding was not that noticeable in Sung = times and the Great Wall did not assume its present form until Ming = times. No surprise that MP did not notice either of these things. He did = not notice the Tokyo Stock Exchange either. Wood simply does not know = what she is talking about. Paul D. Buell -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Suarez To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Friday, December 12, 1997 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo =20 =20 Sarah Schneewind wrote : "I think the biggest problem with Marco Polo is not a lack of = veracity, but an inability to notice anything important or write anything interesting. Is he really a good choice for students to read, I wonder?" =20 Sarah, =20 Actually, I was surprised that Polo's book has (apparently) the = reputation you cite. =20 Polo's book is splendid reading, fascinating, informative, and a = "must" for students. =20 Students, however, need to bear in mind a few points :=20 =20 1. Polo did not write the book. Ructichello, a romace writer did, = and thus the text is embellished in the ways that were sure to sell the = book. Rustichello was a professional at what he did --- commercially = viable stories.=20 =20 2. The book has, regretably, come to be known in English as the = "Travels", giving a false sense that it was an itinerary or travel log = in the strict sense. But it was originally entitled as a "description of = the world", emcampassing Polo's purported travels as well as digressions = to places he never claims to have gone (e.g., Java, and Madagascar) = which sometimes can lead to some confusion of context. =20 3. Some scholars (e.g., Francis Wood) have raised legitimate = questions about the veracity of Polo's story, e.g., there are some = chronological glitches, and he never mentioned foot-binding or the Great = Wall. Although I personally disagree with her conclusion that Polo = reached no further than Persia, it is true that one needs to be cautious = when reading it. =20 4. Even Wood acknowledges that the text, if not the result of Polo's = own experience, is based on actual travel data gleaned from his Middle = East hosts. In other words, the text is a valid source even if Marco = were an imposter. =20 For the "long" version, get the Yule-Cordier edition, available in = two volumes in Dover reprint. If you have other things to do in life = aside from reading Polo (!), get the shorter Latham translation, = published by Penguin. =20 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Suarez suarez@mci2000.com tel (914) 741-6155 fax (914) 741-6156 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BD07C3.87436500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
But, again, be aware the a = footbinding was not=20 that noticeable in Sung times and the Great Wall did not assume its = present form=20 until Ming times. No surprise that MP did not notice either of these = things. He=20 did not notice the Tokyo Stock Exchange either. Wood simply does not = know what=20 she is talking about. Paul D. Buell
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Thomas Suarez <suarez@mci2000.com>
To: = discovery@win.tue.nl <discovery@win.tue.nl>
D= ate:=20 Friday, December 12, 1997 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: [EXP] M = Polo

Sarah Schneewind = wrote :
"I=20 think the biggest problem with Marco Polo is not a lack of = veracity,
but=20 an inability to notice anything important or write = anything
interesting.=20  Is he really a good choice for students to read,=20 I
wonder?"

Sarah,

Actually, I was surprised = that=20 Polo's book has (apparently) the reputation you cite.

Polo's = book is=20 splendid reading, fascinating, informative, and a "must" = for=20 students.

Students, however, need to bear in mind a few = points :=20

1. Polo did not write the book. Ructichello, a romace writer = did,=20 and thus the text is embellished in the ways that were sure to sell = the=20 book. Rustichello was a professional at what he did --- commercially = viable=20 stories.

2. The book has, regretably, come to be known in = English as=20 the "Travels", giving a false sense that it was an = itinerary or=20 travel log in the strict sense. But it was originally entitled as a=20 "description of the world", emcampassing Polo's purported = travels=20 as well as digressions to places he never claims to have gone (e.g., = Java,=20 and Madagascar) which sometimes can lead to some confusion of=20 context.

3. Some scholars (e.g., Francis Wood) have raised = legitimate=20 questions about the veracity of Polo's story, e.g., there are some=20 chronological glitches, and he never mentioned foot-binding or the = Great=20 Wall.  Although I personally disagree with her conclusion that = Polo=20 reached no further than Persia, it is true that one needs to be = cautious=20 when reading it.

4. Even Wood acknowledges that the text, if = not the=20 result of Polo's own experience, is based on actual travel data = gleaned from=20 his Middle East hosts. In other words, the text is a valid source = even if=20 Marco were an imposter.

For the "long" version, get = the=20 Yule-Cordier edition, available in two volumes in Dover reprint. If = you have=20 other things to do in life aside from reading Polo (!), get the = shorter=20 Latham translation, published by=20 Penguin.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Suarez
suarez@mci2000.com
tel (914)=20 741-6155
fax (914)=20 741-6156

------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BD07C3.87436500-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 21:47:44 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA13551; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:47:43 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA28123; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:46:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin03.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA28119; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:46:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate32 by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA02387; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:46:24 +0100 (MET) Received: by mailgate32 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA29667; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:45:53 -0800 Received: from sdn-ts-002waseatp09.dialsprint.net(206.133.224.44) by mailfep1-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) id Q_10.1.1.4/Q_20707_1_3492f3f5; Sat Dec 13 12:45:41 1997 From: "Paul D. Buell" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:41:14 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd0807$74403480$2ce085ce@chono> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0063_01BD07C4.661CF480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01BD07C4.661CF480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MP was mostly in the north and during the time that he was in China, = Mongol China was mostly the north. The conquest of the south came only = after 1276 and then the south was not pacified until 1279. So MP's = experience of the former Sung domains, where there was some footbinding = (but nothing late later), was limited. Odoric came at a time when south = China was firmly part of the Mongol empire and he had a direct = experience of it, and a long-term exposure at that. Thus it is no = surprise that Odoric might have noticed foot-binding. Foot-binding, by = the way, really took root in Ming and particularly Ch'ing. It was not a = major facet of the Chinese scene in the 14th century. It's all a matter = of perspective. And, in any case, who is to say what MP found = interesting. He does seem to have had a great interest in Mongol court = ceremonial and has left valuable information. He also has many details = of the Mongol administration of China and outlying areas, not surprising = since MP claims to have participated. He also preserves a wonderful = account of the Hang Chou markets, just the kind of thing a visitor = passing through would have noticed. Paul D. Buell -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Suarez To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Friday, December 12, 1997 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo =20 =20 After I posted my last bit about Polo, I received Paul Buell's = posting. =20 Paul said it all 37 times better than I did.=20 =20 While I agree with his criticisms of Francis Wood's reasoning = regarding foot-binding and the Wall, to give the benefit-of-the-doubt to = Wood (which perhaps I try too hard to do), Odoric DOES clearly refer to = foot-binding. =20 Thus a question for Paul Buell --- did the practice of foot-binding = increase shortly after Polo, when Odoric was there? =20 I like to divide Polo's book into three categories of accuracy --- = those that came directly from his own observation, which have proven = themselves to be admirably reliable (e.g., a Chinese document discovered = earlier this century actually corroborates the names given by Polo of = the leaders of his voyage from Zaiton [China] to Persia) ; those that = he himself reported, but from heresay rather than from direct = observation (such as an Arabian Nights inspired tale of birds on = Madagascar which carry elephants away) ; and pure extraneous = embellishments (such as formula descriptions of battles) which appear to = have been added by his writer Rustichello to embellish sections dealing = with the less "exotic" Near East, rather than the Far East. =20 --- T Suarez =20 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Suarez suarez@mci2000.com tel (914) 741-6155 fax (914) 741-6156 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01BD07C4.661CF480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MP was mostly in the north and = during the time=20 that he was in China, Mongol China was mostly the north. The conquest of = the=20 south came only after 1276 and then the south was not pacified until = 1279. So=20 MP's experience of the former Sung domains, where there was some = footbinding=20 (but nothing late later), was limited. Odoric came at a time when south = China=20 was firmly part of the Mongol empire and he had a direct experience of = it, and a=20 long-term exposure at that. Thus it is no surprise that Odoric might = have=20 noticed foot-binding. Foot-binding, by the way, really took root in Ming = and=20 particularly Ch'ing. It was not a major facet of the Chinese scene in = the 14th=20 century. It's all a matter of perspective. And, in any case, who is to = say what=20 MP found interesting. He does seem to have had a great interest in = Mongol court=20 ceremonial and has left valuable information. He also has many details = of the=20 Mongol administration of China and outlying areas, not surprising since = MP=20 claims to have participated. He also preserves a wonderful account of = the Hang=20 Chou markets, just the kind of thing a visitor passing through would = have=20 noticed. Paul D. Buell
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Thomas Suarez <suarez@mci2000.com>
To: = discovery@win.tue.nl <discovery@win.tue.nl>
D= ate:=20 Friday, December 12, 1997 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EXP] M = Polo

After I posted my = last bit about=20 Polo, I received Paul Buell's posting.

Paul said it all 37 = times=20 better than I did.

While I agree with his criticisms of = Francis=20 Wood's reasoning regarding foot-binding and the Wall, to give the=20 benefit-of-the-doubt to Wood (which perhaps I try too hard to do), = Odoric=20 DOES clearly refer to foot-binding.

Thus a question for Paul = Buell=20 --- did the practice of foot-binding increase shortly after Polo, = when=20 Odoric was there?

I like to divide Polo's book into three = categories=20 of accuracy --- those that came directly from his own observation, = which=20 have proven themselves to be admirably reliable (e.g., a Chinese = document=20 discovered earlier this century actually corroborates the names = given by=20 Polo of the leaders of his voyage from Zaiton [China] to Persia) ;=20  those that he himself reported, but from heresay rather than = from=20 direct observation (such as an Arabian Nights inspired tale of birds = on=20 Madagascar which carry elephants away) ;  and pure extraneous=20 embellishments (such as formula descriptions of battles) which = appear to=20 have been added by his writer Rustichello to embellish sections = dealing with=20 the less "exotic" Near East, rather than the Far = East.

--- T=20 Suarez

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Suarez
suarez@mci2000.com
tel (914)=20 741-6155
fax (914)=20 = 741-6156


<= /BODY> ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01BD07C4.661CF480-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 21:49:42 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA13563; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:49:41 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA28131; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:48:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA28127; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:48:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate32 by svtt02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA03191; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:48:19 +0100 (MET) Received: by mailgate32 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA00311; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:47:47 -0800 Message-Id: <199712132047.MAA00311@mailgate32> Received: from sdn-ts-002waseatp09.dialsprint.net(206.133.224.44) by mailfep1-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) id Q_10.1.1.4/Q_20943_1_3492f467; Sat Dec 13 12:47:35 1997 From: "Paul D. Buell" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] M. Polo and Vinland Map Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:43:08 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Bridge to buy any one? Paul D. Buell -----Original Message----- From: James Enterline To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Friday, December 12, 1997 9:43 PM Subject: [EXP] M. Polo and Vinland Map >Skeptics of Marco Polo will soon be trumpeting the secret manuscript of >13th century Jacob of Ancona, published as "City of Light" by David >Selbourne. The assertion is that this hitherto unknown manuscript was the >actual source for many of Marco's claims and observations. > Selbourne says that he was allowed to read and translate the manuscript >only on condition that he not show the original or reveal the owner's >identity. Begin to see the reason for this posting's heading? It gets >better. Jacob of Ancona is said to have been an Italian Jewish merchant >who wrote about his travel to southeast China. On the way, along the >Persian Gulf, Jacob came across a Jewish ghetto, which he referred to with >the Arabic term "Mellah" because the word "Ghetto" had not yet come into use. > However, critics say that neither had the word "Mellah." The root of this >word is salt, and the Jewish application sprang from a community of Jews >who after 1438 settled near a salt marsh in Fez, Morocco. This >anachronism, say the critics, is like finding the word "Oldsmobile" in the >Dead Sea Scrolls. Or, some might say, like finding uniformly precipitated >anatase titanium dioxide in an ink purporting to be from 1440. > More on the controversy, although little more of scholarly value, may be >found in the December 9th New York Times, page A9. Jim. > > >James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net >144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org >New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Dec 13 21:57:41 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA13607; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:57:40 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA28142; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:56:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA28138; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:56:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate32 by svtt02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA04288; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:56:19 +0100 (MET) Received: by mailgate32 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA02777; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:55:48 -0800 Message-Id: <199712132055.MAA02777@mailgate32> Received: from sdn-ts-002waseatp09.dialsprint.net(206.133.224.44) by mailfep1-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) id Q_10.1.1.4/Q_22035_1_3492f64f; Sat Dec 13 12:55:43 1997 From: "Paul D. Buell" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:51:15 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Actually, if you want to have selections from something like MP in a course why not do Mendes Pinto. Whatever you can say about his account, dull it is not. Paul D. Buell PS: A very good Mongol-era travel account is what Waley translated years ago as Travels of a Chinese Alchemist. William of Rubruck is fun too. There is even a new translation. -----Original Message----- From: Sarah K Schneewind To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Saturday, December 13, 1997 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [EXP] M Polo >I certainly don't object to them learning about him, but I, as a grad >student studying Chinese history, found his Travels exceptionally dull. > If there is time to do any literature in connection with what is >presumably a social studeis unit, I wonder how Italo Calvino's >Invisible Cities would work, an absolutely beautiful book. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 14 01:15:33 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA15572; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:15:32 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA28534; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:13:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbs01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA28530; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:13:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from uhura.concentric.net by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id BAA20694; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:13:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi [206.173.119.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id TAA23019; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:12:59 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts003d10.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.15.118]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.8) id TAA00414; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:12:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971213190920.00827c10@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:09:20 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Perhaps Richard Burack, who introduced the raisin theory, would like to take a crack at this one? Jim. At 02:51 PM 12/13/97 PST, Keith wrote: >I've never seen wild grapes turn to raisins on the vine. But then again, I >haven't studied them closely. I would not care to hazard an estimate on >the amount of labor needed to turn grapes into raisins. > >Keith Pickering >keithp@minn.net > >|====================================== >| Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage >| http://www1.minn.net/~keithp >|====================================== > >---------- >> Would Keith Pickering please tell us if he has ever seen his Minnesota >wild >> grapes turn into useable raisins on the vine? If not, could he make an >> estimate of the number of man-hours as well as total elapsed time required >> to pick ripe grapes off the vine, deploy them in drying pans and tend and >> protect them while the sun does its work - enough to fill a boat? >Remember >> that while this was going on the expedition's crew was engaged on >alternate >> days cutting timber, a very cherished commodity on Greenland and Iceland. >> Jim. >> >> James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net >> 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org >> New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 > > > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 14 02:38:47 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA15899; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:38:46 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA28622; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:37:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from svis01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA28618; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:37:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id CAA29261; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:37:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia96n.ncia.net [207.141.176.96]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA26521 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:36:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34933687.4E840F08@ncia.net> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:29:44 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19971213190920.00827c10@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2660871353990067B54B2243" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR --------------2660871353990067B54B2243 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Enterline wrote: > Perhaps Richard Burack, who introduced the raisin theory, would like > to > take a crack at this one? Jim. > > At 02:51 PM 12/13/97 PST, Keith wrote: > >I've never seen wild grapes turn to raisins on the vine. But then > again, I > >haven't studied them closely. I would not care to hazard an estimate > on > >the amount of labor needed to turn grapes into raisins. > > > >Keith Pickering > >keithp@minn.net > > > >|====================================== > >| Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage > >| http://www1.minn.net/~keithp > >|====================================== > > > >---------- > >> Would Keith Pickering please tell us if he has ever seen his > Minnesota > >wild > >> grapes turn into useable raisins on the vine? If not, could he > make an > >> estimate of the number of man-hours as well as total elapsed time > required > >> to pick ripe grapes off the vine, deploy them in drying pans and > tend and > >> protect them while the sun does its work - enough to fill a boat? > >Remember > >> that while this was going on the expedition's crew was engaged on > >alternate > >> days cutting timber, a very cherished commodity on Greenland and > Iceland. > >> Jim. > >> > >> James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > >> 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org > >> New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 > > > > > > > > > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org > New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 Having now put in a day's work (during which I think I may have discovered that Walter Raleigh's clever ability to grow tobacco was because he cribbed the means of doing it from someone else) I will answer your request. related to grapes and raisins and Wineland (also known as Vinland) to the best of ability. However, before doing so, I cannot help but wonder if you and your compatriot McIntosh, who have already pestered Kirsten over there in Oxford to the extent that she had to read the act to you to cut it out, are really serious about this matter. You may well be, and perhaps it's justified, but to a lot of us it sounds like an obsession. I'll tell you this much: 1) any berry or fruit contains sugar. Sugar can be fermented to produce alcohol. Primitive people knew how to do it and so did the explorers of the 9th to the 11th century. The molecular change in a simple sugar to make alcohol is trivial. 2 ). I did in fact spend time thirty years ago in what was once called Markland and has for ever and a day since been called Labrador. I had never before been to Labrador before then, nor do I have any desire to revisit that barren place But I met the natives -- they were patients -- and they were pure Indian; so-called "half-breeds" (though I don't like that expression because it implies that all the rest of us who call ourselves Caucasian are not also "half-breeds"); eskimos; and some few folks whose ancestors had come from England a few centuries ago and had (at least to the naked eye) appeared not to have mixed genes with other folk. I recall -- though I have no diaries or proof of any kind -- that there were locals who spoke about growing things such as fruits and berries, including grapes, in what warm season they have up there. It's not the North Pole, you know. There is a growing season. I remember chatting up one very old man, or so he appeared, who didn't know his exact age and said only that he was "three years younger than God" who mentioned making wine from grapes he dried into raisins. I got a chuckle out of this at the time because the Grenfell Mission Hospitals are strictly anti-alcohol of any kind. No member of the staff of that hospital would ever have engaged a total stranger, as I was -- a not-so-young doctor volunteer 30 years ago -- in a conversation that dealt with an alcoholic beverage. I was there in mid-winter, the snow was piled so high that the route from the airport at Goose Bay to Happy Valley had white sidewalls so high you couldn't see over them. There were a heck of a lot of drunks that I saw in the emergency room and I seriously doubt that many had the wherewithal to buy proper booze from the Hudson Bay Company, which was located some miles away. I remember the drunk Indians and Eskimos particularly because when they had a fight -- usually over a woman -- they tended to bite one anther's fingers off. 3.) You asked Keith Pickering, who is as busy as a person can be, dealing with all these eccentric (don't get me wrong; they're interesting and so are their interests) people who post letters here, if he ever noticed his runt grapes turn into raisins. He gave you an honest answer. He's so gosh-darn busy trying to give civil answers to outlandish questions, that he hasn't had the time to notice what happens incidentally around his Minnesota farm. I don't know where he gets his patience. But you asked him how many "man-hours" it might take to pick raisins and fill up a boat. a) Women can pick raisins as well as men. So can children of either gender. His answer was that he didn't know. He was gentleman enough not to take you to task for being a little sexist or asking a question that excluded the possibility that several persons might take part in the task. b) You have overlooked the possibility -- nay, likelihood -- that the trip from Wineland back to Greenland may have happened during summer months and the grapes could have had a full exposure to the heat of sun during the trip. That's about all I have to say on the subject except that my wife tells me she doubts she ever filed away any recipes for the manufacture of raisin wine that I think I brought back from Labrador. Respectfully yours, Richard Burack Your colleague McIntosh sounded as though he wanted to put me through the third degree a couple of days ago: "Richard Burack, what is your sourse (sic) for that date?" I don't know. There are some dates that stick in your head -- like 1453 for the printing press (the first thing printed, by the way was not a Bible -- it was a papal indulgence -- the Bible came the following year) or 1066, or 1912, when the last contiguous state in North America, Arizona, joined the Union. Maybe I was recalling a date imprinted on my memory by the patient who was three years younger than God. --------------2660871353990067B54B2243 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Enterline wrote:
Perhaps Richard Burack, who introduced the raisin theory, would like to
take a crack at this one?    Jim.

At 02:51 PM 12/13/97 PST, Keith wrote:
>I've never seen wild grapes turn to raisins on the vine.  But then again, I
>haven't studied them closely.  I would not care to hazard an estimate on
>the amount of labor needed to turn grapes into raisins.
>
>Keith Pickering
>keithp@minn.net
>
>|======================================
>|  Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage
>|  http://www1.minn.net/~keithp
>|======================================
>
>----------
>> Would Keith Pickering please tell us if he has ever seen his Minnesota
>wild
>> grapes turn into useable raisins on the vine?  If not, could he make an
>> estimate of the number of man-hours as well as total elapsed time required
>> to pick ripe grapes off the vine, deploy them in drying pans and tend and
>> protect them while the sun does its work - enough to fill a boat?
>Remember
>> that while this was going on the expedition's crew was engaged on
>alternate
>> days cutting timber, a very cherished commodity on Greenland and Iceland.
>>      Jim.
>>
>> James Enterline         jenterli@concentric.net
>> 144 West 95th St.       KV2Z@amsat.org
>> New York NY 10025       Voice/Fax (212)865-9648
>
>
>
>

James Enterline         jenterli@concentric.net
144 West 95th St.       KV2Z@amsat.org
New York NY 10025       Voice/Fax (212)865-9648

 Having now put in a day's work (during which I think I may have discovered that Walter Raleigh's clever ability to grow tobacco was because he cribbed the means of doing it from someone else) I will answer your request. related to grapes and raisins and Wineland (also known as Vinland) to the best of ability. However, before doing so, I cannot help but wonder if you and your compatriot McIntosh, who have already pestered Kirsten over there in Oxford to the extent that she had to read the act to you to cut it out, are really serious about this matter. You may well be, and perhaps it's justified, but to a lot of us it sounds like an obsession.
    I'll tell you this much: 1) any berry or fruit contains sugar. Sugar can be fermented to produce  alcohol. Primitive people knew how to do it and so did the explorers of the 9th to the 11th century. The molecular change in a simple sugar to make alcohol is trivial.
                                     2 ). I did in fact spend time thirty years ago in what was once called Markland and has for ever and a day since been called Labrador. I had never before been to Labrador before then, nor do I have any desire to revisit that barren place But I met the natives -- they were patients -- and they were pure Indian; so-called "half-breeds" (though I don't like that expression because it implies that all the rest of us who call ourselves Caucasian are not also "half-breeds"); eskimos; and some few folks whose ancestors had come from England a few centuries ago and had (at least to the naked eye) appeared not to have mixed genes with other folk. I recall -- though I have no diaries or proof of any kind -- that there were locals who spoke about growing things such as fruits and berries, including grapes, in what warm season they have up there. It's not the North Pole, you know. There is a growing season. I remember chatting up one very old man, or so he appeared, who didn't know his exact age and said only that he was "three years younger than God" who mentioned making wine from grapes he dried into raisins. I got a chuckle out of this at the time because the Grenfell Mission Hospitals are strictly anti-alcohol of any kind. No member of the staff of that hospital would ever have engaged a total stranger, as I was  -- a not-so-young doctor volunteer 30 years ago -- in a conversation that dealt with an alcoholic beverage. I was there in mid-winter, the snow was piled so high that the route from the airport at  Goose Bay to Happy Valley had white sidewalls so high you couldn't see over them. There were a heck of a lot of drunks that I saw in the emergency room and I seriously doubt that many had the wherewithal to buy proper booze from the Hudson Bay Company, which was located some miles away. I remember the drunk Indians and Eskimos particularly because when they had a fight -- usually over a woman -- they tended to bite one anther's fingers off.
                                      3.) You asked Keith Pickering, who is as busy as a person can be, dealing with all these eccentric (don't get me wrong; they're interesting and so are their interests) people who post letters here, if he ever noticed his runt grapes turn into raisins. He gave you an honest answer. He's so gosh-darn busy trying to give civil answers to outlandish questions, that he hasn't had the time to notice what happens incidentally around his Minnesota farm. I don't know where he gets his patience. But you asked him how many "man-hours" it might take to pick raisins and  fill up a boat.
                                                a) Women can pick raisins as well as men. So can          children of either gender. His answer was that he didn't know. He was gentleman enough not to take you to task for being a little sexist or asking a question that excluded the possibility that several persons might take part in the task.
                                                        b) You have overlooked the possibility -- nay, likelihood -- that the trip from Wineland  back to Greenland may have happened during summer months and the grapes could have had a full exposure to the heat of sun during the trip.
    That's about all I have to say on the subject except that my wife tells me she doubts she ever filed away any recipes for the manufacture of raisin wine that I think I brought back from Labrador.
                                                        Respectfully yours,
 
                                                            Richard Burack
Your colleague McIntosh sounded as though he wanted to put me through the third degree a couple of days ago: "Richard Burack, what is your sourse (sic) for that date?" I don't know. There are some dates that stick in your head -- like 1453 for the printing press (the first thing printed, by the way was not a Bible -- it was a papal indulgence -- the Bible came the following year) or 1066, or 1912, when the last contiguous state in North America, Arizona, joined the Union. Maybe I was recalling a date imprinted on my memory by the patient who was three years younger than God.
  --------------2660871353990067B54B2243-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 14 13:50:40 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id NAA01354; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:50:40 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id NAA28953; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:48:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id NAA28949; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:48:55 +0100 (MET) Received: by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id NAA01022; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:48:53 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199712141248.NAA01022@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Arctic Routes to Fabled Lands - A Book Review (fwd) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:48:53 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The following message was posted on the oldnorsenet listserv by Bertil Haggman. With eager permission of the author, I am reposting it on this list. ====================================================================== Marijke Spies, _Arctic Routes to Fabled Lands - Olivier Brunel and the Passage to China and Cathay in the Sixteenth Century_, Amsterdam: Amsterdam University Press, 1997, 168 pp __________________________________ This is a beautiful book and a fine production of the Amsterdam University Press. The author is Professor of Dutch Literature up to 1770 at the Free University of Amsterdam. It is a translation of a best selling Dutch title. Numerous attempts were made by Dutch and Flemish discoverers and mariners to reach China via the Arctic, a region of great interest to Norway, Sweden and Denmark, who sent her own expeditions (Jens Munk who ended up in Hudson Bay). The discoverers knew it was cold up there. North of Iceland there was a thick fog and the Swallowing Sea. Ships getting caught in it ended up in the inner depths of the earth. They could also, so the myth, be suspended on a magnetic Mountain, a shining black stone. Could this be the devil's domain ? Witchcraft of the Sami ? Groaning souls in purgatory ? Horrors of Northern Russia ? But some actually believed it was an earthly paradise, a warm sea with heavenly land. This is a book on Olivier Brunel, an Antwerp explorer who in 1584 sailed from the Dutch port of Enkhuizen to seek new Arctic routes and ended up in the mouth of the river Ob in Arctic Russia. The great Mercator had drawn four polar islands around the North Pole surrounded by a ring of mountains and seperated by four streams, a view inherited from Medieval times. His first map with these four polar islands was printed in 1569. And of course, it turned out in the end that there were many Arctic archipelagos: the Canadian Arctic Archipelago, Franz Josefs Land and a number of Russian Arctic islands. What happened to Brunel and his expedition ? Brunel actually managed to return to Antwerp via Russia knowing that he had been deceived by Low Country mapmaking. There was no earthly paradise beyond Iceland only ice and cold. For anybody interested in early discovery in the Arctic, the search for the North West Passage, Dutch and Flemish mapmaking of the Golden Era and the myths surrounding northern Scandinavia and the Arctic the book is a treasure trove. Greetings Bertil Haggman ====================================================================== -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html There is no limit to human stupidity and the universe, although I am not sure about the latter. -- Albert Einstein From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 14 15:15:47 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id PAA01719; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:15:46 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id PAA28997; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:14:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbs01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id PAA28993; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:14:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from ruacad.runet.edu by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id PAA29436; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:14:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from ewbrown.runet.edu (ruppp140.runet.edu [137.45.10.140]) by ruacad.runet.edu (8.8.7/8.7.5) with SMTP id JAA03735 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:14:20 -0500 (EST) From: "Emily Brown" To: Subject: [EXP] what is this, and how did I get subscribed? Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:11:42 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd089a$33e567a0$8c0a2d89@ewbrown.runet.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0146_01BD0870.4B0F5FA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0146_01BD0870.4B0F5FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm sorry, I just don't understand something. Suddenly I am = subscribed to this list and have no recollection of doing so. I'd like = some information about this list before I attempt to unsubscribe; could = someone please tell me what this list is about, what you discuss, and = things of that nature? Also, what are you affiliated with? The only = list I have subscribed to recently is H-SAE, are you affiliated with = that list? =20 Thank you. Emily Brown Emily W. Brown ewbrown@runet.edu The truth is out there. =20 "I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are really good at heart." --Anne Frank =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0146_01BD0870.4B0F5FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I'm = sorry, I=20 just don't understand something.  Suddenly I am subscribed to this = list and=20 have no recollection of doing so.  I'd like some information about = this=20 list before I attempt to unsubscribe; could someone please tell me what = this=20 list is about, what you discuss, and things of that nature?  Also, = what are=20 you affiliated with?  The only list I have subscribed to recently = is H-SAE,=20 are you affiliated with that list? 
    = Thank=20 you. 
 
    = Emily=20 Brown
Emily W. Brown
ewbrown@runet.edu
The truth is = out=20 there. 
"I still believe, in spite of everything,
= that people=20 are really good at heart." --Anne Frank 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0146_01BD0870.4B0F5FA0-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 14 16:42:43 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA02003; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:42:42 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA29051; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:41:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA29047; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:41:48 +0100 (MET) Received: by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA00370; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:41:48 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199712141541.QAA00370@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Re: what is this To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:41:47 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Emily Brown wrote: > I'm sorry, I just don't understand something. Suddenly I am = > subscribed to this list and have no recollection of doing so. I'd like = > some information about this list before I attempt to unsubscribe; could = > someone please tell me what this list is about, what you discuss, and = > things of that nature? Also, what are you affiliated with? The only = > list I have subscribed to recently is H-SAE, are you affiliated with = > that list? =20 > Thank you. The subject of this list is 'voyages of exploration and discovery'. I don't know H-SAE, but there is no affiliation as far as I know. Strange you got subscribed, somebody must either have used your email account, or at least have convinced majordomo that they were you. Anyway, if you want to unsubscribe, you should send an email to majordomo@win.tue.nl with in the body of the message the text 'unsubscribe discovery'. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html There is no limit to human stupidity and the universe, although I am not sure about the latter. -- Albert Einstein From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 14 16:51:03 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA02055; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:51:03 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA29070; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:50:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin03.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA29066; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:50:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from uhura.concentric.net by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA13413; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:50:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id KAA25276; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:50:19 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts011d08.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.17.20]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id KAA28111; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:50:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971214104659.00828270@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:46:59 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: [EXP] Re: Vines and Grapes in Vinland? In-Reply-To: <34933687.4E840F08@ncia.net> References: <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19971213190920.00827c10@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Richard, thank you for responding to my question. I'm glad you did. But there are some issues where we just don't see eye to eye. 1) The possibility that "Vinland" originally meant something other than wineland has been around since the turn of the twentiety century and has been entertained by notables ranging from Fridtjof Nansen to Helge Ingstad. Pursuit of facts and evidence bearing on the question need not be dismissed as fringe activity, and could have important results. 2) Participation in this list is voluntary. If someone initiates or responds to a thread, they can expect to be engaged further on the matter. If they decline at that point, so be it. Individuals who paint the situation otherwise have ulterior motives that are often transparent. 3) Your statement < But you asked him how many "man-hours" it might take to pick raisins and fill up a boat > does not accurately reflect my two-part question. (I will bypass the PC issue of "person-hours" versus "man-hours.") If useable raisins do in fact develop in quantity on the vine, then the scenario you depict might seem reasonable. But I suspect unpicked ripe grapes spoil before the sugar concentration becomes high enough to be a preservative. My grandmother used to make raisins and "apple schnits" in a pan on the south-facing porch roof, and an essential component seemed to be a muslin cover. 4) Your statement < the trip from Wineland back to Greenland may have happened during summer months and the grapes could have had a full exposure to the heat of sun during the trip > has a problem. The saga states that the tow-boat was filled with grapes. That means a pile a couple of feet thick. If they were not already raisins, I think we have a problem that the sun would only accelerate. So, in summary, I think we still do not have a definitive answer to Greg McIntosh's question. I hope we can have scholarly issues between us, Richard, and still continue to be friends. Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 14 17:34:52 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA02225; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:34:52 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA29091; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:34:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt02.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA29087; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:34:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from bbs.doruk.com.tr by svtt02.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA15326; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:30:20 +0100 (MET) From: janissary To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Vinland sagas Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 18:34:13 In-Reply-To: James Enterline Comment: Turkce karekter filtresinden gecirildi. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <9712141829.aa17545@bbs.doruk.com.tr> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hi everybody, I've been avidly following the Vinland threads on this list and find them fascinating. Could someone please give me the names of the saga(s) in which the account(s) of the Vinland voyages occur? I'd also appreciate being pointed to a Web site where electronic copies of the sagas would be available. Thanks in advance, Bob Bragner From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 14 20:50:17 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA02915; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:50:16 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA29198; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:49:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin04.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA29194; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:49:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from new-murphey.tenet.edu by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA02911; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:49:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from [166.72.116.207] (slip166-72-116-207.tx.us.ibm.net) by new-murphey.tenet.edu (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40960U100000L30000S0) with SMTP id AAA11814 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:49:16 -0600 Message-ID: <3493E412.1F3D@tenet.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:50:14 +0000 From: "Martha King" Organization: Regina Howell School,Beaumont ISD X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-STMJ (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Vinland sagas References: <9712141829.aa17545@bbs.doruk.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR janissary wrote: > > Hi everybody, > > I've been avidly following the Vinland threads on this list and find them > fascinating. Could someone please give me the names of the saga(s) in which > the account(s) of the Vinland voyages occur? I'd also appreciate being pointed > to a Web site where electronic copies of the sagas would be available. > > Thanks in advance, > Bob Bragner Oh yes, Bob, if you find something like this, please do e-mail me. I find this information quite interesting, but then I go off on a tangent and would like to know about their lives, foods they ate, how they cared for their children and how many lived in their long houses that they have found. Am very interested in what ever concrete information we have on these fascinating people. I tell tales to my children about the Norse and viking adventures, but many are from my imagination. Martha Kate King mkking@tenet.edu From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 15 00:48:02 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA05193; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:48:01 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA29757; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:47:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from svis01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA29751; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:47:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id AAA00863; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:46:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia110n.ncia.net [207.141.176.110]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA08036 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:46:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34946E0B.745C005B@ncia.net> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:38:51 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Vines and Grapes in Vinland? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19971213190920.00827c10@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19971214104659.00828270@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR James Enterline wrote: > Richard, thank you for responding to my question. I'm glad you did. > But > there are some issues where we just don't see eye to eye. > > 1) The possibility that "Vinland" originally meant something other > than > wineland has been around since the turn of the twentiety century and > has > been entertained by notables ranging from Fridtjof Nansen to Helge > Ingstad. > Pursuit of facts and evidence bearing on the question need not be > dismissed as fringe activity, and could have important results. > > 2) Participation in this list is voluntary. If someone initiates or > responds to a thread, they can expect to be engaged further on the > matter. > If they decline at that point, so be it. Individuals who paint the > situation otherwise have ulterior motives that are often transparent. > > 3) Your statement < But you asked him how many "man-hours" it might > take to > pick raisins and fill up a boat > does not accurately reflect my > two-part > question. (I will bypass the PC issue of "person-hours" versus > "man-hours.") If useable raisins do in fact develop in quantity on > the > vine, then the scenario you depict might seem reasonable. But I > suspect > unpicked ripe grapes spoil before the sugar concentration becomes high > > enough to be a preservative. My grandmother used to make raisins and > "apple schnits" in a pan on the south-facing porch roof, and an > essential > component seemed to be a muslin cover. > > 4) Your statement < the trip from Wineland back to Greenland may have > > happened during summer months and the grapes could have had a full > exposure > to the heat of sun during the trip > has a problem. The saga states > that > the tow-boat was filled with grapes. That means a pile a couple of > feet > thick. If they were not already raisins, I think we have a problem > that > the sun would only accelerate. > > So, in summary, I think we still do not have a definitive answer to > Greg > McIntosh's question. I hope we can have scholarly issues between us, > Richard, and still continue to be friends. Jim. > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org > New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 Jim: I have a suggestion. Why don't you visit the library of a good herbarium and look up Vitia, which I think is the grape family. There are numerous manuals of cultivated and wild plants. See if there are any grapes, whether juicy or runt-like, that grow along the North American coast from way up north to as far south as Long Island. You may already have done this, but from what I've read here I don't recall any mention of it. Don't throw up your hands if one or two of these compendia happen not to mention any because their editors can be arbitrary about what they consider important enought to list. There are so very many species of grapes that no single horticulturalist is going to be fully comprehensive. I've learned this from looking up Nicotiana. There at least 60 species but even some of the most respected manuals list only only five or six. Dick From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 15 04:53:01 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA18611; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:53:00 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA00022; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:51:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin10.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA00018; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:51:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from darius.concentric.net by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA15679; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:51:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id WAA09782; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:51:33 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts005d40.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.15.244]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id WAA24618; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:51:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971214224407.0082e570@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:44:07 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? In-Reply-To: <34933687.4E840F08@ncia.net> References: <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> <19971207194332.3607.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.2.32.19971213115746.00950a10@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19971213190920.00827c10@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The Greenlanders had no auxilliary source of sugar available, an absolute necessity for making wine from any of the berries suggested as an alternative to grapes. So the spoiling grape problem remains. Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 15 05:10:49 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA18717; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:10:49 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA00053; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:10:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbs01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA00049; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:10:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from ruacad.runet.edu by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA08383; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:10:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from ewbrown.runet.edu (ruppp167.runet.edu [137.45.10.167]) by ruacad.runet.edu (8.8.7/8.7.5) with SMTP id XAA25970 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:10:13 -0500 (EST) From: "Emily Brown" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: what is this Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:07:36 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd090e$f9c87ce0$a70a2d89@ewbrown.runet.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD08E5.10F274E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD08E5.10F274E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for responding so quickly; I am an anthropology major, and if = this listserv discusses voyages of exploration and discovery, it might = be something of interest. I think I'll hang out for a while and see if = I like it. Emily Emily W. Brown ewbrown@runet.edu The truth is out there. =20 "I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are really good at heart." --Anne Frank =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD08E5.10F274E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for responding so quickly; I = am an=20 anthropology major, and if this listserv discusses voyages of = exploration and=20 discovery, it might be something of interest.  I think I'll hang = out for a=20 while and see if I like it.
 
   =20 Emily
Emily W. Brown
ewbrown@runet.edu
The truth is = out=20 there. 
"I still believe, in spite of everything,
= that people=20 are really good at heart." --Anne Frank 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD08E5.10F274E0-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 15 09:59:57 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id JAA20946; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:59:57 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id JAA00336; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:58:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id JAA00332; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:58:41 +0100 (MET) Received: by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id JAA01149; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:58:39 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199712150858.JAA01149@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Re: EXP To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:58:39 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR > I have just tried unsuccessfully to 'unsubscribe' to/from this List but > before I try again (following the revised instructions) this little message > is sent in order to satisfy my curiosity as to whether the 'subject' of all > messages sent to the List is mysteriously but automatically prefixed with > [EXP] by the system. Please do not bother to explain this to me as, with a > bit of luck, I shall be gone before you do. > > PKC Three points: 1. Yes, the [EXP] is prefixed to all message subjects, except for those messages that already contain the string in the subject. I did this to make it easier on people who use mail filters or such. 2. Your original message got bounced because it contained the string 'unsubscribe'. Using an authorization header, I will resend it. I want to warn everybody that all messages containing the word 'subscribe' or the word 'unsubscribe' will have this same delay, these messages will thus work as if the list was moderated by me. 3. I am sending this to your own address as well, so you will receive it. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html There is no limit to human stupidity and the universe, although I am not sure about the latter. -- Albert Einstein From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 15 10:11:12 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id KAA21172; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:11:12 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id KAA00351; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:10:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id KAA00347; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:10:54 +0100 (MET) Received: by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id KAA01174; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:10:53 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199712150910.KAA01174@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Vinland sagas To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:10:53 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <9712141829.aa17545@bbs.doruk.com.tr> from "janissary" at Dec 14, 97 06:34:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR janissary wrote: > > Hi everybody, > > I've been avidly following the Vinland threads on this list and find them > fascinating. Could someone please give me the names of the saga(s) in which > the account(s) of the Vinland voyages occur? I'd also appreciate being pointed > to a Web site where electronic copies of the sagas would be available. There are two sagas, the saga of the Greenlanders and the Eric the Red's Saga. Eric the Red's Saga can be found at http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/north/nor-i/thule/017e.htm . The Saga of the Greenlanders is not available, as far as I know. Which is a shame, because present-day historians regard this saga as the one most likely to contain the truth. The main difference between the two sagas is in the discovery of America: In Eric the Red's Saga Leif Ericson discovers America (ca. 1000), in the Saga of the Greenlanders Bjarni Herjulfsson discovers it (987), while Leif is the first to land on it and make an attempt on colonization (ca. 1001). -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html There is no limit to human stupidity and the universe, although I am not sure about the latter. -- Albert Einstein From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 15 12:23:28 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id MAA22658; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:23:27 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id MAA00497; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:17:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id MAA00493; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:17:48 +0100 (MET) Received: by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id MAA01381; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:17:46 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199712151117.MAA01381@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Lilliput and Dutch Cartography To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:17:45 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <3490F0F4.F45FEF97@AZENOMEI.ar.com.au> from "Peter R Booth" at Dec 12, 97 07:08:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Peter R Booth wrote: > > Greetings all > This is my first post to this list, so hello to all of you. My question > is this; Swift put the positions of Lilliput/Blefuscu about where modern > day Maralinga sits in the state of South Australia, Australia. In one > edition of Gulliver's Travel's is a map showing the islands...now he has > the coastline of southern Australia drawn pretty well up to about the > Yorke peninsula...what intrigues me is the source of Swift's > information. According to history, Pieter Nuyts sailed eastward the most > along Australia's southern littoral c. 1615-20 before turning around. > Would Swift based his maps upon those used by Nuyts or another Dutch > navigator? Considering the timeline, I wonder how this information > would've filtered from the Netherlands to England, considering the state > of affairs at the time. Any clues anyone? Although the VOC (Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie) may have TRIED to keep the discoveries secret, they certainly were not succesful in it. I would have liked to give you an example from my collection of books or from the World Wide Web, but the only maps of the world, or of a region containing Australia, from the second half of the 17th century that I have seen were dutch (see for example De Witt 1688, http://www.libs.uga.edu/darchive/hargrett/maps/1688w5.jpg ). Still, I have a number of reasons to believe that the same can be found on English (or French, or whatever) maps: 1. I have unequivocal evidence that another VOC-voyage, that of Gerrit de Vries, entered the maps within 3 years. (see e.g. http://marauder.millersv.edu/~columbus/data/art/WASHBR08.ART) 2. I remember the typical shape of Australia from the travels of Tasman and other dutch voyages very well, also from non-dutch maps 3. It is there on the early 18th century maps I found: Sherer 1703: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/users/nnj/wldsher.gif Molin 1704: http://www.bo.astro.it/Musei-Universitari/navicart/40218063.gif Although both are rather crude maps, they clearly are influenced by the dutch discoveries in their depiction of Australia. 4. Starting with dutch cartographers in the second half of the sixteenth century (Mercator, Ortelius), excellent world maps became available to a much more general public, often containing the latest discoveries. 5. The VOC was the largest (or at least one of the largest) trading companies in the world, some of the best cartographers of the world served for them, while other famous cartographers lived in the same country or city. Given that, it would be quite likely that the information in their maps would leak out. Concluding this, it seems quite likely that the VOC cartographic information on Australia would be known to the larger part of Europe only a few years after Tasman's voyages, if not before. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html There is no limit to human stupidity and the universe, although I am not sure about the latter. -- Albert Einstein From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 15 18:44:17 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA26462; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:44:16 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA00963; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:41:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin10.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA00959; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:41:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from uhura.concentric.net by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA20071; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:41:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id MAA09100; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:19:12 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts003d19.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.15.127]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id MAA08269; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:19:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971215115428.0081a100@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:54:28 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: EXP In-Reply-To: <199712150858.JAA01149@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR At 09:58 AM 12/15/97 +0100, Andre Engels wrote: > the [EXP] is prefixed to all message subjects, except for those > messages that already contain the string in the subject. I did this > to make it easier on people who use mail filters or such. There is an easier way. Just set your filter to "Sender" "contains" "discovery," which is already present in every header. I find this [EXP] showing up in every Subject to be irritating and offensive. Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 15 19:11:38 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA26812; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:11:36 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA01031; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:11:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from svtt01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA01027; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:11:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA17676; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:11:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from [146.115.194.168] by bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:10:56 -0500 X-Sender: reaston@bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:11:35 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: reaston@bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us (Robert W. Easton) Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: EXP Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR >At 09:58 AM 12/15/97 +0100, Andre Engels wrote: >> the [EXP] is prefixed to all message subjects, except for those >> messages that already contain the string in the subject. I did this >> to make it easier on people who use mail filters or such. I find it helpful. Robert W. Easton Bancroft School 110 Shore drive Worcester, MA USA 01605 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 15 19:47:12 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA27255; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:47:11 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA01055; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:46:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA01051; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:46:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from bbs.doruk.com.tr by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id TAA24731; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:45:52 +0100 (MET) From: janissary To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 18:46:01 In-Reply-To: James Enterline Comment: Turkce karekter filtresinden gecirildi. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <9712152043.aa04867@bbs.doruk.com.tr> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR >The Greenlanders had no auxilliary source of sugar available, an absolute >necessity for making wine from any of the berries suggested as an >alternative to grapes. Honey perhaps? Bob From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 15 21:02:21 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA28110; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:02:20 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA01192; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:01:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from svis01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA01188; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:01:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from uhura.concentric.net by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA03209; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:01:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi [206.173.119.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id PAA02500; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:01:37 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts012d45.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.17.105]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.8) id PAA19348; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:01:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971215145406.00824740@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:54:06 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Vines and Grapes in Vinland? In-Reply-To: <9712152043.aa04867@bbs.doruk.com.tr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Honey itself was rather precious, although occasionally used to make mead by the Norsemen. They also made beer sometimes when an exceptional growing season blessed their grain fields. But the only thing from which one could have made "noble wine" as Adam described it would have been grapes. Jim. >>The Greenlanders had no auxilliary source of sugar available, an absolute >>necessity for making wine from any of the berries suggested as an >>alternative to grapes. >Honey perhaps? > >Bob > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Dec 16 05:04:52 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA14049; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:04:51 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA01722; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:04:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin10.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA01718; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:04:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA23310; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:04:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia71n.ncia.net [207.141.176.71]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA23625; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:03:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3495FBBA.2B432498@ncia.net> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:55:40 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" , plusultr@hotmail.com Subject: [EXP] Apologia profunda X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I wish to post an abject apology for having misidentified Gregory McIntosh as someone who so irked someone else that he caused the riot act to be read to him by someone outside the country at the moment. I regret my error and grievous carelessness, and am genuinely sorry for any personal injury, humiliation or harm my unfortunate but unintended action may have caused Gregory McIntosh. I am genuinely sorry. Sincerely, Richard Burack From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Dec 16 18:04:04 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA20605; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:04:03 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA02430; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:01:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin10.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA02426; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:01:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA26536; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:01:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia116n.ncia.net [207.141.176.116]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA19459 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:00:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3496B1CC.21683AEE@ncia.net> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:52:29 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] Eureka X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4D515F1936754110ED0C068E" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR --------------4D515F1936754110ED0C068E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gregory McIntosh will be relieved to hear that the reference I glanced at two or three weks ago, and then put away on a bookshelf, has been recovered. I had been looking in my library, which fills too many rooms and is uncatalogued, for an obscure volume on presenting mortality statistics (to make them say nearly anything you want them to ) and by chance opened a book that was red and looked as though it might be it. On leafing the pages I saw something about Greenland and Labrador, read a paragraph or two and then put it away. When I answered Jim Enterline at some point, I mentioned what I thought I'd read in this red volume I didn't know I had. (Though I could no longer find the volume.) After communicating with Gregory last night, I searched again for it and found it in another room stashed between Plutarch's Moralia and WB Cannon's Bodily Changes in Pain, Hunger, Fear and Rage. The book is probably known to him: it's Vilhjalmur Stefansson's Great Adventures and Explorations, Dial Press, New York, 1947, and the citation is on p51, first paragraph: "So far as is definitely known, there were no sailings fom Norway to Greenland after 1412, but some think there was a Norwegian voyage in 1448." I believe now that I did see this book, i.e., its title and author, once before within the past few months. This must have been because it was propped up next to Cannon's book on a top shelf. I did peruse the Cannon book at the time, looking for references related to adrenal gland secretion. If Gregory would send me his address by personal e-mail, I'll photocopy the page and frontispiece and send it to him. I also chatted with him last night extensively about how wine is made of grapes and raisins. And if you don't like the wine, which you probably wouldn't, especially if the grapes/raisins had been trampled by Norse sailors' filthy feet, how you might separate the alcohol from the water easily in cold regions by differential freezing. You would then have Greenlandia vodka. --------------4D515F1936754110ED0C068E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gregory McIntosh will be relieved to hear that the reference I glanced at two or three weks ago, and then put away on a bookshelf, has been recovered. I had been looking in my library, which fills too many rooms and is uncatalogued, for an obscure volume on   presenting mortality statistics (to make them say nearly anything you want them to ) and by chance opened a book that was red and looked as though it might be it. On leafing the pages I saw something about Greenland and Labrador, read a paragraph or two and then put it away. When I answered Jim Enterline at some point, I mentioned what I thought I'd read in this red volume I didn't know I had. (Though I could no longer find the volume.)
After communicating with Gregory last night, I searched again for it and found it in another room stashed between Plutarch's Moralia and  WB Cannon's Bodily Changes in Pain, Hunger, Fear and Rage.
    The book is probably known to him: it's Vilhjalmur Stefansson's Great  Adventures and Explorations, Dial Press, New York, 1947, and the citation is on p51, first paragraph: "So far as is definitely known, there were no sailings fom Norway to Greenland after 1412, but some think there was a Norwegian voyage in 1448."
    I believe now that I did see this book, i.e., its title and author, once before within the past few months. This must have been because it was propped up next to Cannon's book on a top shelf. I did peruse the Cannon book at the time, looking for references related to adrenal gland secretion.
    If Gregory would send me his address by personal e-mail, I'll photocopy the page and frontispiece and send it to him. 
    I also chatted with him last night extensively about how wine is made of grapes and raisins. And if you don't like the wine, which you probably wouldn't, especially if the grapes/raisins had been trampled by Norse sailors' filthy feet, how you might separate the alcohol from the water easily in cold regions by differential freezing. You would then have Greenlandia vodka.   --------------4D515F1936754110ED0C068E-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Dec 17 16:52:02 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA14825; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:52:02 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA03965; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:43:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA03961; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:43:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from darius.concentric.net by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA08458; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:43:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id KAA24277; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:43:25 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts003d42.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.15.150]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id KAA17497; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:43:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971217104034.0083e350@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:40:34 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Eureka and vines and grapes in Vinland In-Reply-To: <3496B1CC.21683AEE@ncia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Knowing that students read this list, I want to set the record straight concerning Richard Burack's last message. He has confused not only people, but also places. The 1448 voyage he cites is to Greenland, but the topic of the discussion in his December 11th postings was Vinland. The last recorded voyage I know of mentioning Vinland was Eric Gnupsson's of 1121, when the Icelandic Annals say he went "in search of" Vinland but do not say he found it. A 1347 voyage is known to Markland, but it does not mention Vinland. So, the only Vinland voyages that are documented are those of Leif Ericson's extended family and friends. This should say something about the importance of "vines and grapes" in Greenland. Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Dec 17 21:01:26 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA17165; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:01:25 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA04539; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:00:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin03.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA04535; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:00:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id VAA26790; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:00:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia73n.ncia.net [207.141.176.73]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA06680; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:59:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34982D39.3314C2FB@ncia.net> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:51:22 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl, jenterli@concentric.net Subject: Re: [EXP] Eureka and vines and grapes in Vinland X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.2.32.19971217104034.0083e350@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B6BAEFE6E7B9C6A8DB33D97A" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR --------------B6BAEFE6E7B9C6A8DB33D97A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Enterline wrote: > Knowing that students read this list, I want to set the record > straight > concerning Richard Burack's last message. He has confused not only > people, > but also places. The 1448 voyage he cites is to Greenland, but the > topic > of the discussion in his December 11th postings was Vinland. > The last recorded voyage I know of mentioning Vinland was Eric > Gnupsson's > of 1121, when the Icelandic Annals say he went "in search of" Vinland > but > do not say he found it. A 1347 voyage is known to Markland, but it > does > not mention Vinland. So, the only Vinland voyages that are documented > are > those of Leif Ericson's extended family and friends. This should say > something about the importance of "vines and grapes" in Greenland. > Jim. > > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org > New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 Jim: What started out as tongue-in-cheek fun has turned a bit nasty and I'm a little disappointed. Humor aside, you now have the p.51 reference, and if you look on p119 of the same book by Stefansson, you will find the following in the third papragraph (which I've just noted for the first time in leafing pages): "It seems that with the clergymen aboard Leif was anxious to get back early in the season, perhaps so as to be in time for the Greenland Thing. At any rate, he did what seems to have been rare in those days--indeed he may have been the first to attempt it--sailing direct from Norway for the south tip of Greenland instead of going by Iceland. Evidently he steered too far to the left, for he missed Cape Farewell, (possibly Nova Scotia or Newfoundland.). Realizing he must have overshot his mark, Leif turned northeast and reached Greenland. The country he found was christened Vinland (Wineland), for reasons that will come out when the detailed narrative, the Saga of Eric the Red, is cited." Anyone reading this alone, as I did, might conclude that Vinland is/ was or may have been in Greenland. It's true that if you read on, it appears that Someone Adam of Bremen (new to me) had heard from the King of Denmark knew of another island called "Winland." But a skimmer would miss this. A peruser would see it. I've been a meager skimmer of this volume. Now you are the authority on where Vinland may have been. I am not. My sole reason for entering this discussion was to add some remarks about fermentation of grapes and their derivatives. To this point I don't think you or anyone else knows for certain where Vinland is/was located. As for me, I am completely uninitiated in the geography of this issue. I have, as you know, felt no compunction about apologizing to Gregory for confusing him with someone else, but I do not feel that I owe you any apology for citing briefly from a book on a tangential issue. From today's mail, it seems that an occasional participant seems to have overstepped the bounds of civility, and I know that you are too thoughtful to want to be another. The night before last I went out of my way to send an extensive personal note to Gregory, not only to repeat and solidify my apology for mistaking him for someone else, but to add what in my own fashion I thought might be useful information about wine making -- an issue of fermentation. Yes, I figured it would get a rise or chuckle out of you when I said I saw an orange grove while flying over the tip of Greenland from five miles up, but it seems that in your enthusiasm, which is probably youthful and therefore excusable, you ought be careful to express yourself in a way that doesn't seem to be accusing another person of purposely misleading others. I have no idea who Eric Gnuppson was, and the dates 1121 and 1347 that come trippingly from your keyboard have no meaning to me. You may as well have written to me upside down in Chinese. I've heard of Markland -- I used the word -- because I think it was once used to refer to Labrador, where I worked as a hospital volunteer in 1969 or '70. Whether Labrador, Baffin Island , Long Island or Greenland are the sites of the elusive Vinland I have no idea. Did I think it might be Labrador? I merely expressed the opinion that grapes could well have grown there. If you'd really like to know what intitially struck me was your reference to a boat laden with a "stinking" mess of grapes. My reaction to it was: when grapes are crushed to have their juice fermented, non-odorous carbon dioxide gas comes off. So why should they be malodorous? I let it go because on further thought it seemed that if the grapes had been crushed during the voyage you were talking about by the trampling feet of Norse mariners, they may well have introduced coliform bacteria that could have caused production of malodorous gas. By extension, one might come back and say that the same could have happened to raisins, but I imagined raisins as a more easily transported, less friable cargo to be brought home (wherever that was) to be fermented there. It's true that when I saw the word "Labrador" in a book I was leafing through while looking for another (on methods used to standardize mortality rates), the Stefansson volume did perk my interest enough to leaf its pages because it's red and of about the same thickness as the one I was hunting; and the wine-making posting was jogged by seeing "Labrador." Of the geography or location of Vinland I know nothing and never intentionally said that I did. You're a busy fellow, Jim. I can tell that from your numerous vocations and avocations. And I gather now that you're a teacher, too. So was I. But loosen up and smell the flowers. You only go around once. And please have a happy holiday season and a healthy and a happy New Year. I mean this with all sincerity. Richard Burack --------------B6BAEFE6E7B9C6A8DB33D97A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Enterline wrote:
Knowing that students read this list, I want to set the record straight
concerning Richard Burack's last message.  He has confused not only people,
but also places.  The 1448 voyage he cites is to Greenland, but the topic
of the discussion in his December 11th postings was Vinland.
        The last recorded voyage I know of mentioning Vinland was Eric Gnupsson's
of 1121, when the Icelandic Annals say he went "in search of" Vinland but
do not say he found it.  A 1347 voyage is known to Markland, but it does
not mention Vinland.  So, the only Vinland voyages that are documented are
those of Leif Ericson's extended family and friends.  This should say
something about the importance of "vines and grapes" in Greenland.  Jim.
 

James Enterline         jenterli@concentric.net
144 West 95th St.       KV2Z@amsat.org
New York NY 10025       Voice/Fax (212)865-9648

   Jim: What started out as tongue-in-cheek fun has turned a bit nasty and I'm a little disappointed. Humor aside, you now have the p.51 reference, and if you look on p119 of the same book by Stefansson, you will find the following in the third papragraph (which I've just noted for the first time in leafing pages):
    "It seems that with the clergymen aboard Leif was anxious to get back early in the season, perhaps so as to be in time for the Greenland Thing. At any rate, he did what seems to have been rare in those days--indeed he may have been the first to attempt it--sailing direct from Norway for the south tip of Greenland instead of going by Iceland. Evidently he steered too far to the left, for he missed Cape Farewell, (possibly Nova Scotia or Newfoundland.). Realizing he must have overshot his mark, Leif turned northeast and reached Greenland. The country he found was christened Vinland (Wineland), for reasons that will come out when the detailed narrative, the Saga of Eric the Red, is cited." Anyone reading this alone, as I did, might conclude that Vinland is/ was or may have been in Greenland. It's true that if you read on, it appears that Someone Adam of Bremen (new to me) had heard from the King of Denmark knew of another island called "Winland." But a skimmer would miss this. A peruser would see it. I've been a meager skimmer of this volume.
    Now you are the authority on where Vinland may have been. I am not. My sole reason for entering this discussion was to add some remarks about fermentation of grapes and their derivatives. To this  point I don't think you or anyone else knows for certain where Vinland is/was located.  As for me, I am completely uninitiated in the geography of this issue. 
    I have, as you know, felt no compunction about apologizing to Gregory for confusing him with someone else, but I do not feel that I owe you any apology for citing briefly from a book on a tangential issue. From today's mail, it seems that  an occasional participant seems to have overstepped the bounds of civility, and I know that you are too thoughtful to want to be another.  The night before last I went out of my way to send an extensive personal note to Gregory, not only to repeat and solidify my apology for mistaking him for someone else, but to add what in my own fashion I thought might be useful information about wine making -- an issue of fermentation.
    Yes, I figured it would get a rise or chuckle out of you when I said I saw an orange grove while flying over the tip of Greenland from five miles up, but it seems that in your enthusiasm, which is probably youthful and therefore excusable, you ought be careful to express yourself in a way that doesn't seem to be accusing another person of  purposely misleading others.
    I have no idea who Eric Gnuppson was, and the dates  1121 and 1347 that come trippingly from your keyboard have no meaning to me. You may as well have written to me upside down in Chinese. I've heard of Markland -- I used the word -- because I think it was once used to refer to Labrador, where I worked as a hospital volunteer in 1969 or '70. Whether Labrador, Baffin Island , Long Island or Greenland are the sites of the elusive Vinland I have no idea.  Did I think it might be Labrador? I merely expressed the opinion that grapes could well have grown there.
    If you'd really like to know what intitially struck me was your reference to a boat laden with a "stinking" mess of grapes. My reaction to it was: when grapes are crushed to have their juice fermented, non-odorous carbon dioxide gas comes off. So why should they be malodorous?  I let it go because on further thought it seemed that if the grapes had been crushed during the voyage you were talking about by the trampling feet of Norse mariners, they may well have introduced coliform bacteria that could have caused production of malodorous gas. By extension, one might come back and say that the same could have happened to raisins, but I imagined raisins as a more easily transported, less friable cargo to be brought home (wherever that was) to be fermented there.
    It's true that when I saw the word "Labrador" in a book I was leafing through while looking for another (on methods used to standardize mortality rates), the Stefansson volume did perk my interest enough to leaf its pages because it's red and of about the same thickness as the one I was hunting; and the wine-making posting was jogged by seeing "Labrador." Of the geography or location of Vinland I know nothing and never intentionally said that I did.
    You're a busy fellow, Jim. I can tell that from your numerous vocations and avocations. And I gather now that you're a teacher, too. So was I. But loosen up and smell the flowers. You only go around once.

And please have a happy holiday season and a healthy and a happy New Year. I mean this with all sincerity.
Richard Burack --------------B6BAEFE6E7B9C6A8DB33D97A-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 18 03:20:52 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA20831; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:20:51 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA05160; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:19:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin07.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA05156; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:19:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from darius.concentric.net by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id DAA20373; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:19:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id VAA06769; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:19:41 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts013d01.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.17.109]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id VAA08536; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:19:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971217211658.0084a340@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:16:58 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Eureka and vines and grapes in Vinland In-Reply-To: <34982D39.3314C2FB@ncia.net> References: <3.0.2.32.19971217104034.0083e350@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Rrichard: I hope you didn't interpret my joshing you about your confusion as an attempt to be nasty. (Coincidentally, you have another confusion in your latest message: it was not I who posted the original thread-setting question about rotting grapes, but Greg McIntosh.) As you say, we had fun joshing each other, but I told you in my message of 10:46 AM of December 14th that some people take the subject of this thread seriously. I am one of them. I devoted a whole chapter in my book to it, and I am not likely to "loosen up" about it. The primary purpose of lists like this and Maphist is to exchange and discuss scholarly information reliably. This does not mean that one has to be an expert or even initiated in a subject, but it does mean that statements made as fact are subjected to some scholarly standard of scrutiny rather than just kibitzing. I am completely open to ideas that oppose mine, but if you search the back records of Maphist for controversies I have been involved in, you will see that I am very up-tight about loose scholarship. The reason I made the later sentences in my previous post was not to be nasty, but to make a summary statement for the record. I know from Robert Easton's posts of December 12th that students are exposed to information from this list. I know that many students subscribe to Maphist, and I expect that some of them have come over here too. I want the impression they are left with to be as reliable as possible, not just for posterity but to ease my own arguments later on. So neither of us has anything to apologise for, but I am sorry if you have been hurt by being swept up in this. We have both learned something about each other, and maybe sometime we can share a laugh again. Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 18 04:52:04 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA00277; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:52:04 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA05219; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:51:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin04.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA05215; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:51:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.minn.net by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA00273; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:51:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-68.Minn.Net [204.157.201.68]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA27759 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:51:12 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971217104034.0083e350@pop3.concentric.net> References: Conversation <3496B1CC.21683AEE@ncia.net> with last message <3.0.2.32.19971217104034.0083e350@pop3.concentric.net> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] Eureka and vines and grapes in Vinland Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 22:48:58 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Jim Enterline wrote: > So, the only Vinland voyages that are documented are > those of Leif Ericson's extended family and friends. This should say > something about the importance of "vines and grapes" in Greenland. OK, Jim, I'll bite. What does it say about the importance of vines and grapes in Greenland? Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 18 05:23:03 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA00508; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:23:03 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA05252; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:22:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from svis01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA05248; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:22:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id FAA10864; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:22:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia77n.ncia.net [207.141.176.77]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA07582; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:21:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3498A2F4.B470D5D9@ncia.net> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:13:42 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl, jenterli@concentric.net Subject: [EXP] Re: Seeing the humor in things X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.2.32.19971217104034.0083e350@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19971217211658.0084a340@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6CCCCA2BF88B4D4DB6CBA6E9" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR --------------6CCCCA2BF88B4D4DB6CBA6E9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Enterline wrote: > Rrichard: I hope you didn't interpret my joshing you about your > confusion > as an attempt to be nasty. (Coincidentally, you have another > confusion in > your latest message: it was not I who posted the original > thread-setting > question about rotting grapes, but Greg McIntosh.) > As you say, we had fun joshing each other, but I told you in > my message of > 10:46 AM of December 14th that some people take the subject of this > thread > seriously. I am one of them. I devoted a whole chapter in my book to > it, > and I am not likely to "loosen up" about it. > The primary purpose of lists like this and Maphist is to > exchange and > discuss scholarly information reliably. This does not mean that one > has to > be an expert or even initiated in a subject, but it does mean that > statements made as fact are subjected to some scholarly standard of > scrutiny rather than just kibitzing. I am completely open to ideas > that > oppose mine, but if you search the back records of Maphist for > controversies I have been involved in, you will see that I am very > up-tight > about loose scholarship. > The reason I made the later sentences in my previous post was > not to be > nasty, but to make a summary statement for the record. I know from > Robert > Easton's posts of December 12th that students are exposed to > information > from this list. I know that many students subscribe to Maphist, and I > > expect that some of them have come over here too. I want the > impression > they are left with to be as reliable as possible, not just for > posterity > but to ease my own arguments later on. > So neither of us has anything to apologise for, but I am sorry > if you have > been hurt by being swept up in this. We have both learned something > about > each other, and maybe sometime we can share a laugh again. Jim. > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org > New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 Jim: I'm glad you,wrote. Relieved, in fact. I know where you're coming from and perhaps, for a short period I used to be coming from about the same direction, but always perhaps with a slight difference. Differences are good. Jefferson cried out against the monotony of uniformity. He used high falutin' terms -- like "Procrustean beds." I was always, even when intense, and for a reason I can't explaiin, wanting to see the humor in things. If I saw someone getting too serious or (what was more likely ) myself getting too serious -- I sat back and asked, "What the hell is so serious about this that I can't have the right to see something funny in it?" It doesn't take away from the ultimate seriousness -- it just makes it more fun getting there. (As when I told a high school teacher in front of the class that he was crazy. That caused a helluva ruckus, but you end up your feet.) And often the end is more productive. Want an example? It's unfair to ask when you can't reply, but I'll give the example anyway. Who said life is fair?! As an awfully young intern at the Boston City Hospital, in 1951, I was the only kid who'd gone to medical school outside of Boston but who had been brought up in Boston. So I knew the city and its various ethnic elements. On the very first day of ward rounds, everyone in a starched white uniform, the Chief Resident, the Senior and Junior assistant residents and the two or three interns (that was me) followed by a queue of Harvard Medical students, went from bed to bed solemnly. Too solemnly. The Senior assistant resident in charge of care of a man with an obviously Italian name, who lived (it showed on the chart posted at the end of the bed) in East Boston, was sick with I don't recall what. The highly educated assistant resident asked him with highly educated Harvard enunciation and pronuciation: "Sir! How are you today?" There was no response. Nothing. The poor old man lay there as though in a coma. Then everyone in turn from upper rank on down asked him a similar well enunciated question. Still, no answer. Coma. Finally it got to be my turn; so I hit him lightly on the shoulder with the back of my hand and asked, "Heha? Mist' Esposito - how ya doin', huh?" (I had the East Boston accent down pat 'cause I'd lived there all my young life.) The man suddenly sat straight up and smiled and said, "I'm a doin'a -- OK-- adoc! -- howa youa doin -- Huh?" Then the ice was broken and everybody laughed, but we could now talk and get to the serious issue of his health. Never again did I have to feel I had to take back seat to the Harvard boys. I knew as much medicine and I could use humor to get through to patients if needed. (There's almost always something wrong, of course, with an individual who uses humor to make himself or herself the center of attraction, but that's another matter). Having a realistic sense of humor can, in itself, abet one's career. Sometimes Mrs. B, and sometimes one or other of my 5 kids give me a little hell for what they think is too much levity. And occasionally I can see what they're saying. But most of the time time they're just being stuffy and unnecessarily serious. It never hurts to say you'd sworn you'd seen an orange grove over Greenland from 37 thousand 500 feet. At least, most of the time it doesn't. Haven't you ever laughed at a funeral when the deceased was a SOB and everyone knows it. And the preacher is going through a nil nisi bonum routine, telling everyone how the person in the casket was the epitome of perfection? I have to bite my lip hard sometimes to smother a laugh. Keep up the good work .... and smile! Again, have a real good year ahead. Dick Burack --------------6CCCCA2BF88B4D4DB6CBA6E9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Enterline wrote:

Rrichard: I hope you didn't interpret my joshing you about your confusion
as an attempt to be nasty.  (Coincidentally, you have another confusion in
your latest message: it was not I who posted the original thread-setting
question about rotting grapes, but Greg McIntosh.)
        As you say, we had fun joshing each other, but I told you in my message of
10:46 AM of December 14th that some people take the subject of this thread
seriously.  I am one of them.  I devoted a whole chapter in my book to it,
and I am not likely to "loosen up" about it.
        The primary purpose of lists like this and Maphist is to exchange and
discuss scholarly information reliably.  This does not mean that one has to
be an expert or even initiated in a subject, but it does mean that
statements made as fact are subjected to some scholarly standard of
scrutiny rather than just kibitzing.  I am completely open to ideas that
oppose mine, but if you search the back records of Maphist for
controversies I have been involved in, you will see that I am very up-tight
about loose scholarship.
        The reason I made the later sentences in my previous post was not to be
nasty, but to make a summary statement for the record.  I know from Robert
Easton's posts of December 12th that students are exposed to information
from this list.  I know that many students subscribe to Maphist, and I
expect that some of them have come over here too.  I want the impression
they are left with to be as reliable as possible, not just for posterity
but to ease my own arguments later on.
        So neither of us has anything to apologise for, but I am sorry if you have
been hurt by being swept up in this.  We have both learned something about
each other, and maybe sometime we can share a laugh again.   Jim.

James Enterline         jenterli@concentric.net
144 West 95th St.       KV2Z@amsat.org
New York NY 10025       Voice/Fax (212)865-9648

 Jim: I'm glad you,wrote. Relieved, in fact. I know where you're coming from and perhaps, for a short period  I used to be coming from about the same direction, but always perhaps with a slight difference. Differences are good. Jefferson cried out against the monotony of uniformity. He used high falutin' terms -- like  "Procrustean beds."  I was always, even when intense, and for a reason I can't explaiin, wanting to see the humor in things. If I saw someone getting too serious or (what was more likely ) myself getting too serious -- I sat back and asked, "What the hell is so serious about this that I can't have the right to see something funny in it?" It doesn't take away from the ultimate seriousness -- it just makes it more fun getting there. (As when I told a high school teacher in front of the class that he was crazy. That caused a helluva ruckus, but you end up your feet.) And often the end is more productive. Want an example? It's unfair to ask when you can't reply, but I'll give the example anyway. Who said life is fair?!
    As an awfully young  intern at the Boston City Hospital, in 1951, I was the only kid who'd gone to medical school outside of Boston but who had been brought up in Boston. So I knew the city and its various ethnic elements. On the very first day of  ward rounds, everyone in a starched white uniform, the Chief Resident, the Senior and Junior assistant residents and the two or three interns (that was me) followed by a queue of Harvard Medical students, went from bed to bed solemnly. Too solemnly. The Senior assistant resident in charge of care of a  man with an obviously Italian name, who lived (it showed on the chart posted at the end of the bed) in East Boston, was sick with I don't recall what. The highly educated assistant resident asked him with  highly  educated Harvard  enunciation and pronuciation: "Sir! How are you today?"  There was no response. Nothing. The poor old man lay there as though in a coma. Then everyone in turn from upper rank on down asked him a similar well enunciated question.  Still, no answer. Coma.  Finally it got to be my turn; so I hit him lightly on the shoulder with the back of my hand and asked, "Heha? Mist' Esposito - how ya doin', huh?" (I had the East Boston accent down pat 'cause I'd lived there all my young life.) The man suddenly sat straight up and smiled and said, "I'm a doin'a --  OK-- adoc! -- howa youa doin -- Huh?"   Then the ice was broken and everybody laughed, but we could now talk and get to the serious issue of his health. Never again did I have to feel I had to take  back seat to the Harvard boys. I knew as much medicine and I could use humor to get through to patients if needed. (There's almost always something wrong, of course,  with an individual who uses humor to make himself or herself the center of attraction, but that's another matter).  Having a realistic sense of humor can, in  itself, abet one's career. 
      Sometimes Mrs. B, and sometimes one or other of my 5 kids give me a little hell for what they think is too much levity. And occasionally I can see what they're saying.  But most of the time time they're just being stuffy and unnecessarily serious. It never hurts to say you'd sworn you'd seen an orange grove over Greenland  from 37 thousand 500 feet. At least, most of the time it doesn't.
    Haven't you ever laughed at a funeral when the deceased was a SOB and everyone knows it. And the preacher is going through a nil nisi bonum routine, telling everyone how the person in the casket was the epitome of perfection? I have to bite my lip hard sometimes to smother a laugh.
Keep up the good work .... and smile! Again, have a real good year ahead.
     Dick Burack
  --------------6CCCCA2BF88B4D4DB6CBA6E9-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 18 16:35:38 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA07692; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:35:37 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA05879; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:34:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin03.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA05875; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:34:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from namaste.cc.columbia.edu by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id QAA10274; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:34:06 +0100 (MET) Received: (from sks9@localhost) by namaste.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA09028 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:34:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 10:34:03 EST From: Sarah K Schneewind To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Eureka and vines and grapes in Vinland In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:16:58 -0500 Message-ID: Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Why is all this personal stuff being posted to the whole group? Can we get back to the intellectual issues? Sarah Schneewind sks9@columbia.edu From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 18 17:11:00 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA08047; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:10:59 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA05918; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:06:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin03.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA05914; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:06:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id RAA10363; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:06:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from aagaard02.u.washington.edu (wolfram@aagaard02.u.washington.edu [140.142.14.4]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id IAA16070 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:06:40 -0800 Received: from localhost (wolfram@localhost) by aagaard02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id IAA16328 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:06:40 -0800 Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:06:39 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Buell" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Eureka and vines and grapes in Vinland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Does anyone know if there are there any arabic sources (and any that have been translated into english) regarding the initial Portuguese expeditions in the Indian ocean? Parry in the "Age of Discovery" mentions that the Da Gama expedition picked up a renowned arabic pilot (the name escapes me) who had written several works on navigation and pilotage and I am curious about when the Portuguese influence begins to be seen in the sources. If someone familiar with the arabic (and indian) sources could provide some leads... Thanks, J. Buell From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 18 18:08:36 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA08600; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:08:36 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA06006; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:05:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin08.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA06002; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:05:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from uhura.concentric.net by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id SAA12428; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:05:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi [206.173.119.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id MAA26381; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:05:08 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts011d05.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.17.17]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.8) id MAA26461; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:05:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971218120121.0087c840@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:01:21 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Eureka and vines and grapes in Vinland In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.19971217104034.0083e350@pop3.concentric.net> <3496B1CC.21683AEE@ncia.net> <3.0.2.32.19971217104034.0083e350@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR At 10:48 PM 12/17/97 PST, you wrote: >Jim Enterline wrote: > >> So, the only Vinland voyages that are documented are >> those of Leif Ericson's extended family and friends. This should say >> something about the importance of "vines and grapes" in Greenland. > >OK, Jim, I'll bite. What does it say about the importance of vines and >grapes in Greenland? > >Keith Pickering >keithp@minn.net The minute I hit the SEND button I know I was in trouble. And I'm not surprised to see that Keith was the one to bring it. What it SHOULD say about the importance of vines and grapes in Greenland is that it was very little. But this of course would be negative reasoning, for which I have criticized others mericlessly. Thanks, Keith, for keeping up the "reliability of these scholarly postings." Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net 144 West 95th St. KV2Z@amsat.org New York NY 10025 Voice/Fax (212)865-9648 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 19 06:51:33 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id GAA23147; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:51:33 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id GAA06803; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:50:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from svis01.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id GAA06799; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:50:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from uni.net.hk by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id GAA14445; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:50:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from uni.net.hk by uni.net.hk via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/940406.SGI) id NAA05949; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:43:55 +0800 (HKT) From: 99763501@Publisher.win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 21:39:03 EST To: Friend@public.com Subject: [EXP] Being a Better Teacher Message-ID: <> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Dear educator: Today, more than ever, we need innovative new solutions to educational problems. "Kevin Kirchman's book Aspirations is an answer to education questions such as 'How do we teach students to think for themselves, fulfill their potential, be creative, gain self esteem, and be ready for this productive world?' "His book is a must for all educators from pre-school through graduate school. I wish his book had been available during my 42 year teaching career." Norma Silver Retired teacher, Fort Lee, NJ Introducing, Aspirations: The Rational Foundations of Achievement. The reason it is possible to have an entirely new perspective on educational issues is because the theory behind education, called epistemology, or the theory of knowledge, has _not_ been an empirical science. Epistemology is to education what physics is to engineering-- but until the basis was discovered for _principles_ of understanding, there could be no science, and no applications that would radically transform educational practices. That is until now. "If knowledge of the humanities is subjective, that is, only valid for the person who holds it, of what value is education? "Knowledge is not subjective. There are some conceptual models that are better--more accurate and enlightening-- than others." Aspirations Aspirations will show you why, and teach you precisely how to tell the difference. "[Aspirations] lays out the foundations of clear, critical thinking, that can help us to better understand ourselves, others, and the world around us. In the final analysis, we are all decision makers. Don't make many more important decisions before you read and grasp Aspirations." Frank L. David Co-Principle, Business Learning Centers Murrieta, CA Perhaps the last earthly frontier, the mind, has been finally penetrated by this wonderful new book. Aspirations won't give you old ideas about the mind that you've seen before. It's radically new. Set within the context of human intellectual history, Aspirations stands out as a unique and controversial contribution to our understanding of ourselves. Fascinating reading. A journey deep into the corners of the mind and down the paths of civilization’s philosophical development. The author of Aspirations, Kevin Kirchman, a Cornell University educated Artificial Intelligence scientist, lecturer and businessman, has actually utilized his new understanding of innovation to develop original perspectives on * deduction, or what reasoning is * induction, the basis of all innovation and creativity * character formation and these new ideas genuinely will aid you not only in teaching better mental habits, but in improving your own. "[Aspirations] is a self-motivational book for intelligent people." Stan Irwin The Producer of the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson for 15 years Rarely in human history is a book produced which has as important implications. Rarely is a book offered which gives us such hope and inspiration. Aspirations will soon be promoted nationally by Rogers & Cowan, America’s largest public relations firm. Be the first to learn and apply these revolutionary new insights. Table of Contents: 1 Introduction 2 The Problem -- Why Educational Philosophy is Psychologically Debilitating 3 Concepts -- The Key to Understanding the Mind 4 Descriptive Concepts -- The Foundation of Clear Thinking 5 Creating Ideas -- Concept Formation is Induction 6 Motivation -- A Theoretical Defense of the Principles of Achievement 7 Reasoning -- A New and Practical Overview 8 Goal Setting and Decision Making -- Giving Yourself a Purpose 9 Deduction -- The Connection Between Logic and Common Sense 10 Reasoning Well -- Applying the New Science of Logic 11 The Principles of Induction -- New Solutions to a Classical Challenge 12 Conceptual Modeling -- Coming Up with the Best Concepts 13 Teaching Induction -- Overcoming the Fear of Abstractions 14 Philosophical Clarifications -- Understanding the Breakthrough and Replacing Outdated Technology 15 The New Science of Logic -- Clearing the Way for a Revolution in Rationality 16 Historical Background and Philosophical Comparison -- Putting the Conceptual Model Theory Into Perspective If, after receiving "Aspirations", you are not completely satisfied, return it for a prompt and full refund. Only $16.95 plus $3.50 postage and handling For orders of 2 or more, p&h is free. ORDER Aspirations NOW by calling USA Toll Free 1 800 913-9691, International 1 310 289-2394, or faxing to 1 310 854-1840 any time with your credit card details. Or, Mail Check, Money Order, or Credit Card details to: Breakthrough Publishing, Inc. 291 S. La Cienega Blvd., Suite 107 Beverly Hills, CA 90211 Or, email to: kkbpi@aol.com If you email, please send 2 emails with half the credit card numbers in each (for security). YES! __ I would like ____ copies of Aspirations * $16.95 = __________ + $3.50 = __________ Name ________________________________________ Title __________________ Organization_________________________________ Mailing Addr ________________________________ _____________________________________________ City ___________________ State ______________ Post Code ____________ Country ___________________________ VISA ___ MasterCard ___ American Express ___ Discovery ___ Card # __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Expiration Date __________ Signature _________________________________ From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Dec 19 20:40:49 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA00650; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:40:48 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA08001; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:35:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin03.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA07997; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:35:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id UAA25675; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:35:27 +0100 (MET) Received: (from sks9@localhost) by sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19910 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:35:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 14:35:33 EST From: Sarah K Schneewind To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Eureka and vines and grapes in Vinland In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:06:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR About arabic sources on the Prtuguese. I am not familiar with the sources myself, but there is an excellent bibliography, divided by world region, in the back of Janet Abu-Lughod's Before European Hegemony... (Oxford, 1989). That might be a place to start. It is in any case a very good,solid book. Sarah Schneewind sks9@columbia.edu From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 22 01:39:45 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA08367 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:39:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id BAA10732. Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:37:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin02 [131.155.70.100] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA10728 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:37:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from pm02sm.pmm.mci.net by svin02 (8.8.7/1.45) id WAA06236; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:29:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from earth (usr27-dialup39.mix2.Boston.mci.net) by PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27034) with ESMTP id <0ELG00JMZH6X2J@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for discovery@win.tue.nl; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:33:02 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:22:53 -0500 From: Thomas Suarez Subject: [EXP] Arabic sources in Indian Ocean To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-id: <0ELG00JNFH712J@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Another excellent source : G. R. Tibbetts, A Study of the Arab Texts containing material on Southeast Asia, London, R.A.S., 1979. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Suarez suarez@mci2000.com tel (914) 741-6155 fax (914) 741-6156 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Dec 22 10:11:15 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA19790 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:11:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id KAA11102. Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:10:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA11098 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:10:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id KAA11967. Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:10:13 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199712220910.KAA11967@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Being a Better Teacher To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:10:13 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <> from "99763501@Publisher.win.tue.nl" at Dec 18, 97 09:39:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR 99763501@Publisher.win.tue.nl wrote: > Dear educator: [spam deleted] To avoid this kind of spam in the future, the settings of the list have been changed such that people who are not subscribed to the list cannot post on it. In fact the same spam tried to hit the list again earlier today. Furthermore the probable postmaster of the spammer has been informed. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html For every genius once thought a fool, there are a thousand fools still so regarded. -- Sean Ellis From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Dec 23 04:09:44 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA06590 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:09:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA12502. Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:08:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA12498 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:07:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA05070 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:07:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-218.Minn.Net [204.157.201.218]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA05121 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:07:31 -0600 Message-ID: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: [EXP] Vincente Yanez Pinzon Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 22:01:13 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I have recieved an e-mail request from a person in Brazil wanting information on Vincente Yanez Pinzon. Does anyone know of any online resources, or sources in Portuguese, on this navigator? Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Dec 23 04:10:46 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA06646 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:10:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id BAA12437. Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:50:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA12433 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:50:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA24209 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:50:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from burke (1Cust46.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net [208.255.237.46]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id SAA13789 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:48:39 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <349F0BAA.3B4B@gte.net> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:54:02 -0500 From: Jennifer & Tim Burke Organization: home X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Shipboard Chickens & Eggs References: <0ELG00JNFH712J@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I was recently asked a question from a Park Ranger at De Soto National Memorial (US) regarding the use of eggs on expeditions. Although bringing along hens during the march through La Florida would seem more trouble than its worth, it seemed to me that fresh eggs aboard a ship would be quite practical. The only trouble is that I can’t find any evidence to back this supposition up. Does anyone know any specific references, (manifests, narratives and the like) regarding the use of chickens and eggs aboard expedition ships during the 16th century, preferably Spanish in origin? Thanks in advance, Timothy Burke From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Dec 23 04:55:05 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA07806 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:55:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA12549. Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:54:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA12545 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:54:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from F23.hotmail.com [207.82.250.34] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA07802 (SMTP). Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:54:13 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 9322 invoked by uid 0); 23 Dec 1997 03:53:40 -0000 Message-ID: <19971223035340.9321.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.163.213.114 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:53:40 PST X-Originating-IP: [152.163.213.114] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re: Vicente Yanez Pinzon Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:53:40 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Probably the best single source for Vicente Yanez Pinzon (and the rest of the family, too) is Juan Manzano Manzano, , 2 vol. (Madrid: Ediciones de Cultura Hispanica, 1988). Manzano uses all of the extant primary sources, e.g., Navarrete, Los Pleitos, etc. Very complete and thorough with extensive notes and references. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Dec 24 03:44:36 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA23154 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:44:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id DAA14240. Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:42:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA14236 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:41:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from [207.140.8.2] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA08826 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:41:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia106n.ncia.net [207.141.176.106]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA14320; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:40:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34A07410.C948AD7B@ncia.net> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:31:44 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: morpo-editors@morpo.com, "discovery@win.tue.nl" , maphist@harvarda.harvard.edu Subject: [EXP] one hell of a nerve! X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The Morpo Review id WAA04513 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:18:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id WAA15964. Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:16:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin08 [131.155.70.71] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) id WAA15960 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:16:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from www18.hway.net [207.158.192.98] by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) id WAA16799 (SMTP). Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:16:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (from virtu2@localhost) by www18.hway.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA12967; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:16:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:16:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199712242116.QAA12967@www18.hway.net> To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Philippa Alderton via the Virtual Florist Subject: [EXP] Virtual Flower Bouquet Delivery Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The Discovery List, This message is to inform you that Philippa Alderton has created a Virtual Flower Bouquet(tm) for you at the Virtual Florist(sm) web site. Your Virtual Flower Bouquet can be viewed anytime during the next two weeks by connecting your World Wide Web browser to the following URL: http://www.virtualflorist.com/pickup?RXE68601 If you have difficulty getting to this URL, or do not have access to a web browser, then send an e-mail to "help@virtualflorist.com" and our mail system will send an automated reply with a more detailed set of instructions. Enjoy your flowers! The Virtual Florist ____________________________________________________________________ Please send any replies to: phlip@morganco.net The originator of this item was logged into IP Address 206.244.123.15 at 16:16 EST. ____________________________________________________________________ From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Dec 24 22:47:44 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA04593 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:47:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id WAA15978. Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:47:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin08 [131.155.70.71] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA15974 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:47:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@ul1.satlink.com [200.0.224.2] by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA16843 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:47:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from un1.satlink.com (root@un1.satlink.com [200.9.212.3]) by ul1.satlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26053 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:47:13 -0300 (GMT-3) Received: from paranaer (ppp-19.sfe.satlink.com [200.0.229.25]) by un1.satlink.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14154 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:47:11 -0300 Message-Id: <199712242147.SAA14154@un1.satlink.com> From: "Federico Lopez" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Virtual Flower Bouquet Delivery Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:46:27 -0300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Thank you very much , Philippa !!! I wish you all a merry Christmas !!! This is for you. All the great people who cares about discoveries. http://www.bluemountain.com/cards/box6958/myfr2633yfp7467.html Greetings from Argentina Federico Lopez paranaer@satlink.com UIN-ICQ : 931085 Parana - ER - Rca. Argentina ---------- > De: Philippa Alderton via the Virtual Florist > A: discovery@win.tue.nl > Asunto: [EXP] Virtual Flower Bouquet Delivery > Fecha: Miércoles, Diciembre 24, 1997 6:16 PM > > The Discovery List, > > This message is to inform you that Philippa Alderton has created a > Virtual Flower Bouquet(tm) for you at the Virtual Florist(sm) web site. > > Your Virtual Flower Bouquet can be viewed anytime during the next > two weeks by connecting your World Wide Web browser to the following > URL: > > http://www.virtualflorist.com/pickup?RXE68601 > > If you have difficulty getting to this URL, or do not have access > to a web browser, then send an e-mail to "help@virtualflorist.com" > and our mail system will send an automated reply with a more detailed > set of instructions. > > > Enjoy your flowers! > > The Virtual Florist > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Please send any replies to: phlip@morganco.net > The originator of this item was logged into IP Address 206.244.123.15 > at 16:16 EST. > ____________________________________________________________________ From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Dec 28 13:55:35 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA09062 (ESMTP). Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:55:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id NAA19884. Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:54:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA19880 (ESMTP). Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:54:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA09056 (ESMTP). Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:53:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from heabppp72.helsingborg.se (heabppp72.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.227]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id NAA10316 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:53:51 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <34A6CB35.1434@helsingborg.se> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:57:09 -0800 From: Bertil Haggman Organization: CRG X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re: Reis van Mahu en De Cordes 1598 - 1600 References: <34A5AD69.2C10@helsingborg.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Bertil Haggman wrote: > > As this is my first contribution to the > list I would like to introduce myself. > Am a Swedish author (member, Swedish Authors > Association) and independent researcher > in history. My main interests are the > search for the North West and North East > passages but am interested in historic > discovery and exploration in general. > > Presently I am writing an article > on a Dutch stamp issue of 1996 > (Voyages of discovery). The > 100 cents stamp has the text "Reis > van Mahu en De Cordes 1598 - 1600". > Have not been able to find any > information on this. And the Dutch > ptt did not print any information > on that stamp in its "Collect" No.1, > November 1996 but did on the three > other stamps of the issue. Any help would be > much appreciated. If anything > on that journey can be found on > the Internet I would > be grateful for tips. As the > text Americae Pars appears on the > stamp in large letters I assume it > was a journey to the Americas. > > Season's Greetings > > Bertil Haggman > bertil.haggman@helsingborg.se From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Dec 18 04:52:04 1997 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA00277; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:52:04 +0100 (MET) Received: by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA05219; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:51:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from svin04.win.tue.nl by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA05215; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:51:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.minn.net by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7/1.45) id EAA00273; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:51:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-68.Minn.Net [204.157.201.68]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA27759 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:51:12 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971217104034.0083e350@pop3.concentric.net> References: Conversation <3496B1CC.21683AEE@ncia.net> with last message <3.0.2.32.19971217104034.0083e350@pop3.concentric.net> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] Eureka and vines and grapes in Vinland Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 22:48:58 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Jim Enterline wrote: > So, the only Vinland voyages that are documented are > those of Leif Ericson's extended family and friends. This should say > something about the importance of "vines and grapes" in Greenland. OK, Jim, I'll bite. What does it say about the importance of vines and grapes in Greenland? Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |======================================