From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 2 03:40:35 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA07998 (ESMTP). Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:40:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id DAA18340. Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:38:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) id DAA18336 (ESMTP). Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:37:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) id DAA09176 (ESMTP). Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:37:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/01/20 5.9)) id VAA01490; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:37:50 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts014d22.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.17.178]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id VAA28794; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:37:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980301213252.007e1100@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:32:52 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: [EXP] Re: Sun-Ray Disk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR On January 3rd Kirsten Seaver mentioned on Maphist the new book _Viking Navigation_ by Soren Thirslund. It was said to review the latest on the asserted Solar Compass disk as discussed here on Discovery. I was unable to find an available copy anywhere in the U.S.A., so Kirsten kindly lent me her copy. The primary new information presented is photographic, including for the first time the rear of the disk. It shows a large number of incised lines roughly radiating from the central hole, mostly diagonal to the wood grain, all cut with a straightedge. I am sending xerox copies of the main parts in the morning mail to Neil Good and Keith Pickering. Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net New York City KV2Z@amsat.org From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Mar 3 18:07:49 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA22416 (ESMTP). Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:07:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA22955. Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:03:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) id SAA22951 (ESMTP). Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:03:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) id SAA10699 (ESMTP). Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:03:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/01/20 5.9)) id MAA03771; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:03:39 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts005d20.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.15.224]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id MAA21102; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:03:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980303115232.007ea7c0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:52:32 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: [EXP] Re: Sun Ray Disk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Following is a message I just sent privately to Keith Pickering, but then realized it should have been sent to the open list for other interested parties. Hi, Keith. When you get the new Thirslund material I sent, I'd like to ask you to take a special look at Figures 13 and 14 on page 17. These seem to suggest an identical gnomon height for the solstice and equinox curves. While Roslund has never put his name on any relevant publications, Thirslund states on page 22 that he was (is?) part of the research team, and probably did the calculations for these figures. Also note Figure 32, which was clearly NOT calculated by Roslund and is designed for a similar latitude in the southern hemisphere. One of the most striking things to me in Figure 32 is the implication that linear interpolation between the solstice and equinox curves is practical. I don't know that the translation from axis/orbit angle to calender time would be so linear, but it might be servicable. All best, Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net New York City KV2Z@amsat.org From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Mar 8 05:23:22 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA24986 (ESMTP). Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:23:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id FAA23096. Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:21:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin10 [131.155.70.127] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA23092 (ESMTP). Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:21:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA14781 (ESMTP). Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:20:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-pm2-3.minn.net [208.16.89.43]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA01863; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:20:51 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980303113654.007bd400@pop3.concentric.net> References: Conversation <3.0.2.32.19980303113654.007bd400@pop3.concentric.net> with last message <3.0.2.32.19980303113654.007bd400@pop3.concentric.net> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "James Enterline" Cc: "Neil Good" <105022.3530@compuserve.com>, "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: [EXP] Re: Sun Ray Disk Date: Sat, 07 Mar 98 23:16:28 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Jim, your mailing arrived today. Thanks much, it looks great; the photos are superb and I am now in the process of remeasuring everything with greater precision, and drawing error curves. I'll keep you informed. Meanwhile, after reading all of Thirslund's stuff, plus the items from Neil, it's clear that you must be right about the assumption that the straight 'equinoctal' line must define east-west according to his theory. The 61 degree latitude seems to derive from sailing directions in the Sagas rather than from any analysis of the scratches themselves. The north-south line defined by the straight 'equinoctal' line is, however, not the same as the alleged 'north' carved point: they differ by about 7.5 degrees (!) My reading of the directions of the carved points is as follows: Point Bearing 1 7.5 2 19.5 3 30 4 40 5 50 6 60 7 71 8 83 9 93.5 10 104.5 11 113 12 122 13 132 14 140.5 15 147 16 154.5 17 163.5 As you can see, there is no set of nine carved points (e.g., eight interspaces) that subtends 90 degrees; the first set subtends 86 degrees, and all other sets are smaller. The largest interspace is 12 degrees (between 1 and 2, also 7 and 8) and the smallest is 6.5 degrees (between 14 and 15). This does not look like a 32-point compass to me at all; the workmanship is far too sloppy, the spacing too random, and (as Neil and others have noted) the points don't add up to 32 for 360 degrees, nor even 8 for 90 degrees. Note also that Northeast has no point at all, and is in fact halfway between two points. As far as the stone 'solstice curve' is concerned, Neil's archaeological research shows that this type of stone artifact is ubiquitous at Norse sites, in various shapes and sizes, always with decorative carving and a hole in the middle. Although its use is unknown, I would suggest that a candle base is a viable possibility. (This would also explain why some of these artifacts have multiple holes.) The alleged solstice curve on this particular example is obviously part of a decorative neatline running inside the outer edge, and in fact it continues around the third side of the triangle; a spiral and flower are also visible. The shape of the curve is entirely due to the shape of the stone itself, and the stone would appear to be a fragment broken off something else, and turned to a new use. Regarding figures 13 and 14, they would seem to _imply_ that a single height gnomon was used, but if Roslund computed these curves, he was WAY off. (I suspect that Thirslund just drew curves that looked good, i.e., were similar to those on the disk.) We can tell this easily by simply comparing the solstice curve in fig. 14 to that in fig. 32 (correctly drawn for latitude 60 S). Even more revealing is this simple analysis: the North line crosses the solstice curve at some radius Rs from the gnomon, and the equinox line crosses at some radius Re from the gnomon. The ratio of these distances is fixed for a given latitude, assuming a single gnomon height. For latitude 61 (north or south), this ratio is .425, but the ratio seen in figures 13 and 14 is actually about .73. So, you're wondering, at what latitude is the ratio between Rs and Re .73, as implied by figures 13 and 14? Answer: THERE IS NO SUCH LATITUDE. And by the same token, there is NO LATITUDE at which the solstice curve on the disk and the equinox curve on the disk can use the same gnomon height. (This is assuming the solstice curve parallels the equinox line across the central hole; but no other reasonable assumption works, either. Or, you can use a single gnomon height by using different directions for North, but that is even less convincing.) I have no objection to interpolation between curves, as long as the curves are fairly close together. In fact, I have no objection to using a sun-compass as a navigational device >in principle< at all. I just don't think that this disk was such a device. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > Hi, Keith. When you get the new Thirslund material I sent, I'd like to ask > you to take a special look at Figures 13 and 14 on page 17. These seem to > suggest an identical gnomon height for the solstice and equinox curves. > While Roslund has never put his name on any relevant publications, > Thirslund states on page 22 that he was (is?) part of the research team, > and probably did the calculations for these figures. > Also note Figure 32, which was clearly NOT calculated by Roslund and is > designed for a similar latitude in the southern hemisphere. One of the > most striking things to me in Figure 32 is the implication that linear > interpolation between the solstice and equinox curves is practical. I > don't know that the translation from axis/orbit angle to calender time > would be so linear, but it might be servicable. > All best, Jim. > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net > New York City KV2Z@amsat.org From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 9 06:37:23 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id GAA16858 (ESMTP). Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:37:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id GAA24505. Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:35:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) id GAA24501 (ESMTP). Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:35:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) id GAA17700 (ESMTP). Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:35:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/01/20 5.9)) id AAA09734; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:35:43 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts011d23.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.17.35]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id AAA03179; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:35:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980309003219.0084cca0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 00:32:19 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Sun Ray Disk In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.19980303113654.007bd400@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19980303113654.007bd400@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19980303113654.007bd400@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Keith, your attempt to negate the sun-compass function of the Vebaek disk on the basis of insufficient accuracy of the points seems doomed to failure for the following reason. It cannot overcome the unidentified attitude (not mine) that I posted here before: "In my own view, it could well have been a rough demonstration model used to explain to a novice how one goes about making a sun compass." However, your analysis of Figures 13 and 14 leads to a very unsettling possibility: that Thirslund "fudged" these figures rather than Roslund calculating them at all. That is a polite way of saying "fabricated." Furthermore, in the context where Thirslund has used highly similar looking, scientifically created, modern solar compasses to demonstrate the feasibility of the concept, and implying that Roslund was involved, one is strongly tempted to say he "falsified" Figures 13 and 14. This would be a powerful negation indeed. Nevertheless, before making such a statement, I think it is important to have a public check on your own calculations. Could you write a simple derivation of the mathematics involved in the gnomon curve such that anyone with basic mathematical training can follow it and check the calculations? In this respect, there are a number of people on Maphist that I know are qualified to do this check and that I know have been interested in the solar compass in the past. However, I don't know that they have subscribed to or stayed on Discovery. I understand your original motivation in moving this discussion here from Maphist, but there may now be some rationale to take it back again. Let me know your thoughts, and any other interested parties here also please comment. Jim. At 11:16 PM 3/7/98 PST, you wrote: >Jim, your mailing arrived today. Thanks much, it looks great; the photos >are superb and I am now in the process of remeasuring everything with >greater precision, and drawing error curves. I'll keep you informed. >Meanwhile, after reading all of Thirslund's stuff, plus the items from >Neil, it's clear that you must be right about the assumption that the >straight 'equinoctal' line must define east-west according to his theory. >The 61 degree latitude seems to derive from sailing directions in the Sagas >rather than from any analysis of the scratches themselves. > >The north-south line defined by the straight 'equinoctal' line is, however, >not the same as the alleged 'north' carved point: they differ by about 7.5 >degrees (!) My reading of the directions of the carved points is as >follows: >Point Bearing >1 7.5 >2 19.5 >3 30 >4 40 >5 50 >6 60 >7 71 >8 83 >9 93.5 >10 104.5 >11 113 >12 122 >13 132 >14 140.5 >15 147 >16 154.5 >17 163.5 > >As you can see, there is no set of nine carved points (e.g., eight >interspaces) that subtends 90 degrees; the first set subtends 86 degrees, >and all other sets are smaller. The largest interspace is 12 degrees >(between 1 and 2, also 7 and 8) and the smallest is 6.5 degrees (between 14 >and 15). This does not look like a 32-point compass to me at all; the >workmanship is far too sloppy, the spacing too random, and (as Neil and >others have noted) the points don't add up to 32 for 360 degrees, nor even >8 for 90 degrees. Note also that Northeast has no point at all, and is in >fact halfway between two points. > >As far as the stone 'solstice curve' is concerned, Neil's archaeological >research shows that this type of stone artifact is ubiquitous at Norse >sites, in various shapes and sizes, always with decorative carving and a >hole in the middle. Although its use is unknown, I would suggest that a >candle base is a viable possibility. (This would also explain why some of >these artifacts have multiple holes.) The alleged solstice curve on this >particular example is obviously part of a decorative neatline running >inside the outer edge, and in fact it continues around the third side of >the triangle; a spiral and flower are also visible. The shape of the >curve is entirely due to the shape of the stone itself, and the stone would >appear to be a fragment broken off something else, and turned to a new use. > >Regarding figures 13 and 14, they would seem to _imply_ that a single >height gnomon was used, but if Roslund computed these curves, he was WAY >off. (I suspect that Thirslund just drew curves that looked good, i.e., >were similar to those on the disk.) We can tell this easily by simply >comparing the solstice curve in fig. 14 to that in fig. 32 (correctly drawn >for latitude 60 S). Even more revealing is this simple analysis: the >North line crosses the solstice curve at some radius Rs from the gnomon, >and the equinox line crosses at some radius Re from the gnomon. The ratio >of these distances is fixed for a given latitude, assuming a single gnomon >height. For latitude 61 (north or south), this ratio is .425, but the >ratio seen in figures 13 and 14 is actually about .73. So, you're >wondering, at what latitude is the ratio between Rs and Re .73, as implied >by figures 13 and 14? Answer: THERE IS NO SUCH LATITUDE. And by the same >token, there is NO LATITUDE at which the solstice curve on the disk and the >equinox curve on the disk can use the same gnomon height. (This is >assuming the solstice curve parallels the equinox line across the central >hole; but no other reasonable assumption works, either. Or, you can use a >single gnomon height by using different directions for North, but that is >even less convincing.) > >I have no objection to interpolation between curves, as long as the curves >are fairly close together. In fact, I have no objection to using a >sun-compass as a navigational device >in principle< at all. I just don't >think that this disk was such a device. > >Keith Pickering >keithp@minn.net > >|====================================== >| Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage >| http://www1.minn.net/~keithp >|====================================== > >---------- >> Hi, Keith. When you get the new Thirslund material I sent, I'd like to >ask >> you to take a special look at Figures 13 and 14 on page 17. These seem to >> suggest an identical gnomon height for the solstice and equinox curves. >> While Roslund has never put his name on any relevant publications, >> Thirslund states on page 22 that he was (is?) part of the research team, >> and probably did the calculations for these figures. >> Also note Figure 32, which was clearly NOT calculated by Roslund and is >> designed for a similar latitude in the southern hemisphere. One of the >> most striking things to me in Figure 32 is the implication that linear >> interpolation between the solstice and equinox curves is practical. I >> don't know that the translation from axis/orbit angle to calender time >> would be so linear, but it might be servicable. >> All best, Jim. >> >> James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net >> New York City KV2Z@amsat.org > > > > James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net New York City KV2Z@amsat.org From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 11 04:49:12 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA14750 (ESMTP). Wed, 11 Mar 1998 04:49:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA04634. Wed, 11 Mar 1998 04:47:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) id EAA04630 (ESMTP). Wed, 11 Mar 1998 04:47:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) id EAA15204 (ESMTP). Wed, 11 Mar 1998 04:47:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/01/20 5.9)) id WAA08004; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:47:07 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts014d17.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.17.173]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id WAA04596; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:47:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980310224449.007e5bc0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:44:49 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Sun Ray Disk In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.19980309003219.0084cca0@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19980303113654.007bd400@pop3.concentric.net> <3.0.2.32.19980309003219.0084cca0@pop3.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR It seems to me that a good way to demonstrate Thirslund's apparent falsification would be visually. Namely, overlay the correct curves onto his Figures 13 and 14 along with his own, assuming the gnomon he has depicted. His captions say "Straight [Curved] gnomonic line for the time of the equinoxes [near summer solstice] on a modern compass. The same line is also seen incised on the find." The correct overlain lines would make it starkly clear that his logic in the caption is reversed and he is assuming his conclusion. I assume you are better equipped to generate these figures than I, Keith. It may also be instructive to overlay the incised Disk curve onto the modern compass to show the discrepancy of shape, maintaining all other assumptions (scale and centers). >In point of fact, this type of sun-compass may very >well be an inadvertent 20th-century invention of Curt Roslund. I agree, but we are not quite ready to claim that yet. My CD version of Encyclopedia Britannica (1997 edition) contains this statement: "A simple form of the solar compass seems to have been devised by the Syrian Arabs of Aleppo as early as the 14th century." It gives no reference citation for this. It may well be that this claim is a modern interpretation of some vague passage based on the Thirslund work, but we'll have to trace it down to be sure. Anyone else on the list have any ideas on this? All best, Jim. James Enterline jenterli@concentric.net New York City KV2Z@amsat.org From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Mar 14 16:04:50 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA08296 (ESMTP). Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:04:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA18432. Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:02:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA18428 (ESMTP). Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:02:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery id QAA21259. Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:02:12 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199803141502.QAA21259@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Robert Juet To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:02:12 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I'm looking for information (a biography) of Robert Juet who was captain on the third voyage of Henry Hudson for te Dutch East India Cie, the voyage when he discovered the Hudson river. Johan Deckers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- List maintainer's remark: This post was rejected as a non-member submission, because the 'From' header was wrong. The original sender of the message is Johan Deckers, pub00721@innet.be Andre Engels From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Mar 15 16:13:30 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA00610 (ESMTP). Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:13:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA22126. Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:11:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA22122 (ESMTP). Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:11:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA13586 (ESMTP). Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:10:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-pm1-22.minn.net [208.16.89.32]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA28501 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:10:40 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980314130742.0069cd04@aspide.it> References: Conversation <3.0.2.32.19980314130742.0069cd04@aspide.it> with last message <3.0.2.32.19980314130742.0069cd04@aspide.it> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: [EXP] Fw: Navigational istruments Date: Sun, 15 Mar 98 06:28:02 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I am forwarding the following query from a student in Italy. Any help you can give her would be greatly appreciated. If you wish to respond privately, her e-mail address is param001@aspide.it Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > Date: Saturday, March 14, 1998 04:07:42 > From: patricia Ramirez > To: keithp@minn.net > > Dear Sir, > > I'm doing a course of museum studies in Italy. As a school project I'm > doing a temporary exhibit, and for a topic i've chosen maritime navigation. > In this project I'd like to show the evolution of the instrumets from > ancient times to the 1800s or even today. Access to libraries in italy is > limited, so while searching for information on the internet I found your > page. I would like to know if you could tell of sites or other sources in > which i could find images of these navigation objects with their respective > measurements and dimensions. Since these measurements are what i need to > assign them the space in the exhibit and to design their support. > Thank you very much, Patricia > ---------------------------------------------------- > Mailed from The Netgate - Internet point in Firenze > http://netgate.aspide.it From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Mar 17 18:38:31 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA21048 (ESMTP). Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:38:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA00242. Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:34:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA00237 (ESMTP). Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:34:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery id SAA29023. Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:34:27 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199803171734.SAA29023@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] J.A. Moerenhout To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:34:26 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I'm looking for information on J.A Moerenhout, who was the French consul in Monterey, California from 1845-59. Then he moved to LA where he died in 1859. In Monterey he was the first to describe the Goldrush. Before 1845, he spent 16 years in Tahiti as businessman and French consul. He wrote two books, one on the first years he spent on Tahiti, a second on the Gold rush. Both books are in my possession. Are there besides those two books other books concerning Moerenhout? Are there explorers or travellers in the Pacific or California who are writing about him? Are there in Tahiti, Monterey or LA still remindings of him? (Places where he lived, places named after him, his grave ... and where can I find a picture of this? Thanks for any one who can help me further on with reconstructing the life of this very interesting Belgian person. Johan Deckers pub 00721@innet.be ====================================================================== Again I had to re-post this by hand. Johan, could you please next time make sure that the 'From' header gives the correct email address? Andre Engels, list manager From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 19 14:42:18 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA08355 (ESMTP). Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:42:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id OAA08457. Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:38:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA08453 (ESMTP). Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:38:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA24080 (ESMTP). Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:38:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-pm1-14.minn.net [208.16.89.24]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA14070 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 07:38:44 -0600 Message-ID: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: [EXP] NGS exploration map Date: Thu, 19 Mar 98 04:55:03 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I have just recieved the February 1998 National Geographic, with the long-awaited map of the history of exploration. There's a lot here to criticize, but I'm fascinated by one tidbit in particular: This is the first NGS world map since 1986 that does NOT identify Samana Cay as the first landfall of Columbus. The only identification of CC's landfall is "in the Bahamas." This seems to be a deliberate avoidance of the issue, and (perhaps? dare we hope?) a first step in re-evaluating the problem, or at least NGS advocacy of the Judge/Fox theory. Any other comments on this map would be most welcome. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 19 15:23:57 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA08704 (ESMTP). Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:23:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA08645. Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:23:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA08641 (ESMTP). Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:22:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from pm01sm.pmm.mci.net [208.159.126.150] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA17676 (ESMTP). Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:22:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from earth (usr30-dialup42.mix2.Boston.mci.net) by PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27033) with ESMTP id <0EQ200BDEL9B8C@PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for discovery@win.tue.nl; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:22:25 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:20:39 -0500 From: Thomes Suarez Subject: Re: [EXP] NGS exploration map To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-id: <0EQ200BE9L9B8C@PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR National Geographic is avoiding the question because shortly before the 500th anniversary of the landfall, they researched the question and announced that they had proven, absolutely, yessir, no question about it, where Columbus landed. No one objected to the research and the opinion, but many (most) people objected to their arrogance. The project by The National Geographic Society concluded that Samana Cay was the site of Columbus' maiden landing, supporting the conclusion reached by Gustavus Fox in 1882. Many other scholars, however, still support Watling Island as the initial landfall. The whole idea of "proving" their claim beyond question was a quick embarrassment for NG, since, in the final analysis, there can never be certainty on the issue, and any pretense of such is naive at best. Even if the methods used to reconstruct the voyage were "perfect'" (National Geographic used computers), we have only imperfect records of the voyage and landing from which to work. I don't know that NG was wrong, but I do know that they did a major disservice to their generally non-academic audience by misleading them with their "facts". My opinion is typical, and that is why they are avoiding the issue now, rather than admitting that they were wrong to pretend that their re-creation proved anything. If they had simply announced that their simulation of the 1492 voyage SUPPORTED the identity of the landfall as Samana Cay, it would have been an interesting and valid piece of research. Anyone from NG on this list to offer a different reaction? Cheers, T Suarez ___________________________ Thomas Suarez suarez@mci2000.com tel (914) 741-6155 fax (914) 741-6156 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Mar 20 05:07:19 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA29217 (ESMTP). Fri, 20 Mar 1998 05:07:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id FAA11879. Fri, 20 Mar 1998 05:06:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA11875 (ESMTP). Fri, 20 Mar 1998 05:06:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA19127 (ESMTP). Fri, 20 Mar 1998 05:05:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-pm2-27.minn.net [208.16.89.67]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA01966 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:05:52 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0EQ200BE9L9B8C@PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET> References: Conversation <0EQ200BE9L9B8C@PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET> with last message <0EQ200BE9L9B8C@PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] NGS exploration map Date: Thu, 19 Mar 98 19:20:03 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I agree with most of what Tom has said about the NGS, but it does strike me odd that they are avoiding the Columbus Landfall issue while still supporting both the Peary and Byrd claims to the North Pole. (Strange, that is, if they had really turned a new leaf vis-a-vis arrogance, since the Byrd claim has been absolutely disproven and the Peary claim is substantially weaker than the Samana Cay landfall). As far as I am aware, it is no longer true that "Many other scholars, however, still support Watling Island as the initial landfall." For many years, a number of scholars, including me, exchanged letters (via surface mail) on the Columbus landfall issue. This group broke up in the spring of 1996 with the en masse resignation of all remaining defenders of the Watlings landfall, who had (apparently) become aware that the theory was no longer defensible. (Among those no longer willing to defend Watlings: Jim Kelley, Bill Dunwoody, Bill Keegan, Doug Peck, and Neil Sealey. About the same time, Mauricio Obregon [not a member of that group] also ceased his brief correspondence with me.) When there is no one left who will publicly defend a theory against its critics, that theory is dead as far as I'm concerned. Of couse, if there are any Watlings defenders still out there, I'd be happy to resume the debate. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > National Geographic is avoiding the question because shortly before the > 500th anniversary of the landfall, they researched the question and > announced that they had proven, absolutely, yessir, no question about it, > where Columbus landed. No one objected to the research and the opinion, but > many (most) people objected to their arrogance. > > The project by The National Geographic Society concluded that Samana Cay > was the site of Columbus' maiden landing, supporting the conclusion reached > by Gustavus Fox in 1882. Many other scholars, however, still support > Watling Island as the initial landfall. > > The whole idea of "proving" their claim beyond question was a quick > embarrassment for NG, since, in the final analysis, there can never be > certainty on the issue, and any pretense of such is naive at best. Even if > the methods used to reconstruct the voyage were "perfect'" (National > Geographic used computers), we have only imperfect records of the voyage > and landing from which to work. > > I don't know that NG was wrong, but I do know that they did a major > disservice to their generally non-academic audience by misleading them with > their "facts". My opinion is typical, and that is why they are avoiding the > issue now, rather than admitting that they were wrong to pretend that their > re-creation proved anything. If they had simply announced that their > simulation of the 1492 voyage SUPPORTED the identity of the landfall as > Samana Cay, it would have been an interesting and valid piece of research. > > Anyone from NG on this list to offer a different reaction? > > Cheers, > > T Suarez > > ___________________________ > > Thomas Suarez > suarez@mci2000.com > tel (914) 741-6155 > fax (914) 741-6156 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Mar 21 14:18:10 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA26899 (ESMTP). Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:18:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id OAA16391. Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:16:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA16387 (ESMTP). Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:16:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from andromeda.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.17] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA05790 (ESMTP). Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:16:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from default (dialin2-1.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.154]) by andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA06615 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:16:30 GMT Message-ID: <003b01bd54cb$2598b120$9afe4ac2@default> From: "A.H.Schulenburg" To: Subject: [EXP] St Helena Island, Ramusio Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:12:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01BD54CB.04FE2260" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BD54CB.04FE2260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am interested in the discovery of St Helena, particularly the validity of an account contained in Ramusio which dates the island's discovery to 1503 rather than 1502. I attach an extract from a draft paper of mine (MS word) on which I would welcome comments. 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANQBJAEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAAAAAApkv0 yVS9AUAAAAAApkv0yVS9AQMAAAADAAAAAwAAAIcCAAADAAAAag4AAAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD+/wAABAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAABAAAAAtXN1ZwuGxCTlwgAKyz5rjAAAAC0AAAACAAAAAEAAABIAAAADwAAAFAAAAAEAAAAXAAA AAUAAABkAAAABgAAAGwAAAALAAAAdAAAABAAAAB8AAAADAAAAIQAAAACAAAA5AQAAB4AAAACAAAA IABpEAMAAAAAOAAAAwAAAB4AAAADAAAABwAAAAsAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAAAAAMEAAAAgAAAB4AAAAX AAAARElTQ09WRVJZIE9GIFNUIEhFTEVOQQADAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BD54CB.04FE2260-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Mar 22 04:28:01 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA10255 (ESMTP). Sun, 22 Mar 1998 04:28:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA17637. Sun, 22 Mar 1998 04:27:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA17633 (ESMTP). Sun, 22 Mar 1998 04:27:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA07785 (ESMTP). Sun, 22 Mar 1998 04:27:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-pm2-26.minn.net [208.16.89.66]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA15284 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:26:54 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003b01bd54cb$2598b120$9afe4ac2@default> References: Conversation <003b01bd54cb$2598b120$9afe4ac2@default> with last message <003b01bd54cb$2598b120$9afe4ac2@default> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] St Helena Island, Ramusio Date: Sat, 21 Mar 98 18:45:09 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Interesting translation, and it seems that they had the island positioned quite well. Just for my own curiousity and information, can you provide Lopez's Portuguese for the phrase "it faces"? Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > I am interested in the discovery of St Helena, particularly the validity of > an account contained in Ramusio which dates the island's discovery to 1503 > rather than 1502. I attach an extract from a draft paper of mine (MS word) > on which I would welcome comments. > > Best regards, > Alexander Schulenburg > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Mar 27 03:02:05 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA20845 (ESMTP). Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:02:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id CAA14198. Fri, 27 Mar 1998 02:57:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id CAA14194 (ESMTP). Fri, 27 Mar 1998 02:56:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from f81.hotmail.com [207.82.250.187] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id CAA27298 (SMTP). Fri, 27 Mar 1998 02:56:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 28140 invoked by uid 0); 27 Mar 1998 01:56:15 -0000 Message-ID: <19980327015615.28139.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:56:13 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] NGS Map and Columbus Landfall Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:56:13 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Dear Keith, Although you did use the word when asserting that all Watling Island Landfall defenders resigned enmass from the Columbus Landfall Round Robin because their island theory was no not defensible, I am concerned that you may have given some the wrong impression about why they resigned. It is my opinion that they, including myself, stopped participating for two other reasons: 1) Their interests changed. Just as their individual interests temporarily converged in the early 1990s about this subject, so they diverged afterwards. They, and I, had other things to do. The content of the RR became repetative and covered too much of the same ground. 2) The content of the Round Robin too often crossed the line between rational discussion of ideas and personal attacks and name calling. I still consider myself a Watling Island Landfall adherent. I believe it to be as defensible (or indefensible) as many of the other landfall theories. But I will not argue the case with you or anyone else. I have other things to do. But it is not because I have given up believing in it because I admit the theory is indefensible. If you have a copy of the RR correspondence, then you have most of the arguments for and against the Watling Island theory. What more can I add? Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Mar 27 04:02:08 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA27084 (ESMTP). Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:02:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA14317. Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:01:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin08 [131.155.70.71] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA14313 (ESMTP). Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:01:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA07609 (ESMTP). Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:01:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-pm4-17.minn.net [208.16.89.117]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA09148; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:01:11 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19980327015615.28139.qmail@hotmail.com> References: Conversation <19980327015615.28139.qmail@hotmail.com> with last message <19980327015615.28139.qmail@hotmail.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" , "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] NGS Map and Columbus Landfall Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 17:31:05 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Dear Greg, I certainly respect your right to believe any theory that you wish. And you may indeed be correct about the reason(s) for the near-simultaneous exodous of Watlings Islands defenders from the Columbus Round Robin in the spring of 1996. (It is interesting to note, however, that so many scholars became so disinterested just as a serious challenge to a critical element of that theory was put forward.) But I also think it is fair to make a distinction between private belief and public advocacy. When there is no one left who will publicly defend a theory against its critics (for whatever reasons), then the theory is dead from a scholastic perspective. The remedy for this situation is clear, and I for one await the debate, fully confident of my case. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > > Dear Keith, > > Although you did use the word when asserting that all > Watling Island Landfall defenders resigned enmass from the Columbus > Landfall Round Robin because their island theory was no not defensible, > I am concerned that you may have given some the wrong impression about > why they resigned. It is my opinion that they, including myself, > stopped participating for two other reasons: > > 1) Their interests changed. Just as their individual interests > temporarily converged in the early 1990s about this subject, so they > diverged afterwards. They, and I, had other things to do. The content > of the RR became repetative and covered too much of the same ground. > > 2) The content of the Round Robin too often crossed the line between > rational discussion of ideas and personal attacks and name calling. > > I still consider myself a Watling Island Landfall adherent. I believe > it to be as defensible (or indefensible) as many of the other landfall > theories. But I will not argue the case with you or anyone else. I > have other things to do. But it is not because I have given up > believing in it because I admit the theory is indefensible. If you have > a copy of the RR correspondence, then you have most of the arguments for > and against the Watling Island theory. What more can I add? > > Greg McIntosh > plusultra@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Mar 27 18:03:40 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA13093 (ESMTP). Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:03:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id RAA17490. Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:59:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin10 [131.155.70.127] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA17486 (ESMTP). Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:59:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from f55.hotmail.com [207.82.250.141] by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA25582 (SMTP). Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:59:19 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 26084 invoked by uid 0); 27 Mar 1998 16:58:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19980327165847.26083.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:58:47 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] NGS Map and Colmbus Landfall Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:58:47 PST Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Okay, Keith, I will bite. What was the serious challenge to a critical element of the Watling Island Landfall Theory that caused so many scholars to decide the theory was indefensible and to quit the Columbus Round Robin? Greg Mcntosh ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Mar 28 04:09:39 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA25772 (ESMTP). Sat, 28 Mar 1998 04:09:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA01614. Sat, 28 Mar 1998 04:08:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA01610 (ESMTP). Sat, 28 Mar 1998 04:07:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA00318 (ESMTP). Sat, 28 Mar 1998 04:07:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-pm4-25.minn.net [208.16.89.125]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA21654 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:07:44 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19980327165847.26083.qmail@hotmail.com> References: Conversation <19980327165847.26083.qmail@hotmail.com> with last message <19980327165847.26083.qmail@hotmail.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] NGS Map and Colmbus Landfall Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 17:36:07 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Greg McIntosh wrote: > Okay, Keith, I will bite. What was the serious challenge to a critical > element of the Watling Island Landfall Theory that caused so many > scholars to decide the theory was indefensible and to quit the Columbus > Round Robin? I was referring to my demonstration, in November 1995, that Columbus's original log was written predominantly in leagues and not in miles. This is critical to the Watlings theory because, of the 12 Bahamian distances (not counting two restatements) recorded in the _Diario_ (the remains of CC's log), only 4 fit the Watlings theory as written. But prior to 1995, the theory had been able to rescue 4 of the non-fits by supposing that CC had written in miles, and that a series of mistranscriptions into leagues had occurred. (The disproof of this hypothesis can be found at http:\\www1.minn.net\~keithp\leagues.htm ) Since the miles-to-leagues switcheroo is no longer a viable excuse, Watlings is back to 8 non-fits out of 12. The worst of these cases -- CC's statement that the distance between Island I and Island IV was 8 leagues -- has never been seriously addressed by ANY landfall theorist in the last two centuries. Subsequent to the brouhaha that arose out of my analysis (which, by the way, was never challenged), I published in the Round Robin a list of outstanding problems with the Watlings theory as of early 1996 -- a list that was quite long, and has been essentially reproduced at http:\\www1.minn.net\~keithp\watlings.htm . Shortly after (or during) these events, Kelly, Peck, Sealy, and Dunwoody found more important things to do than participate in the landfall discussion. In April of 1996, I had a personal conversation with Bill Keegan in which he essentially bowed out of the discussion, too. I sent Mauricio Obregon a copy of my 1995 SHD lecture (with the above analysis), which he responded to by sending a list of 20 reasons the landfall was not a Samana. (Why, I don't know.) I sent back my long list of Watlings theory problems, and I haven't heard from him since, either. All of these events occurred between December 1995 and April 1996. I realize that my perspective may be biased, but it seems no coincidence to me that a scholarly forum that had been active for a dozen years collapsed just as real progress was being made. The reason, of course, is that progress was not being made in the "right" direction. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Mar 28 16:55:51 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA04953 (ESMTP). Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:55:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA02115. Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:54:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA02111 (ESMTP). Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:53:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from beowulf.alaska.net [209.112.130.8] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA02713 (ESMTP). Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:53:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from calvino.alaska.net (root@calvino.alaska.net [209.112.130.6]) by beowulf.alaska.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA15810 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:54:27 -0900 (AKST) Received: from [209.112.136.81] (jdc-p3-81.alaska.net [209.112.136.81]) by calvino.alaska.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA01335 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:53:47 -0900 (AKST) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:53:47 -0900 (AKST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: deelong@alaska.net (Dee Longenbaugh) Subject: Re: [EXP] NGS Map and Colmbus Landfall Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR As I recall, at the Hakluyt Soc., etc. meeting in 1986?? in Providence, Joe Judge gave a good lectures, illustrated w. gorgeous slides, about "proving" Watling Island was the site - two people were instantly on their feet, denying this. Judge had to admit the measure he assigned the league was computer-generated to fit. Not being a Columbus person at all, I chiefly remember the passion and the fact that no one knows just how long a league was that Columbus was using. Dee Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA 235 Second Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone 907/586-9676 Fax 907/586-9606 deelong@alaska.net From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Mar 29 00:22:06 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA07108 (ESMTP). Sun, 29 Mar 1998 00:22:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA02864. Sun, 29 Mar 1998 00:20:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA02860 (ESMTP). Sun, 29 Mar 1998 00:20:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA26165 (ESMTP). Sun, 29 Mar 1998 00:20:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-pm3-11.minn.net [208.16.89.81]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA11043 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:20:16 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Conversation with last message X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] NGS Map and Colmbus Landfall Date: Sat, 28 Mar 98 13:28:51 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Dear Dee, I think it's fair to say that in recent years there has been a groundswell of acceptance among Columbus historians that CC used the Italian league of 2.67 nautical miles. Judge proposed a 2.81 nmi. league for his Samana Cay theory, and then promptly added a 'fudge factor' to make the transatlantic distance come out right. Even larger 'fudge factors' are needed to make the older Portuguese Maritime League of 3.2 nmi. come out right. Jim Kelley proposed the Italian or Geometric league in 1983, and it comes out right for both eastbound and westbound voyages without a fudge factor. And it's pretty good for the second voyage, too. Kelley's theory also neatly explains the famous 'double bookkeeping' on the westbound first voyage. According to Las Casas, this was done to allay fears of the crew that they had sailed too far from Spain. But Kelley noted that the double figures cluster around a ratio of 6 to 5, which is just the ratio of the Portuguese Maritime League to the Italian League. So CC was siimply converting from his own Italian League into the PML used by the crew. Kelley's theory is so good, it makes me wonder what all the passion was about. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > As I recall, at the Hakluyt Soc., etc. meeting in 1986?? in Providence, Joe > Judge gave a good lectures, illustrated w. gorgeous slides, about "proving" > Watling Island was the site - two people were instantly on their feet, > denying this. Judge had to admit the measure he assigned the league was > computer-generated to fit. Not being a Columbus person at all, I chiefly > remember the passion and the fact that no one knows just how long a league > was that Columbus was using. > Dee > > Dee Longenbaugh > The Observatory, ABAA > 235 Second Street > Juneau, Alaska 99801 > Telephone 907/586-9676 > Fax 907/586-9606 > deelong@alaska.net >