From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jun 2 04:21:33 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA22334 (ESMTP). Tue, 2 Jun 1998 04:21:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA24827. Tue, 2 Jun 1998 04:17:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA24823 (ESMTP). Tue, 2 Jun 1998 04:17:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA11590 (ESMTP). Tue, 2 Jun 1998 04:17:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-pm1-19.minn.net [208.16.89.29]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA27466; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:17:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199805210857.KAA26624@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> References: Conversation <199805210857.KAA26624@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> with last message <199805210857.KAA26624@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" , "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' naming of the Indians Date: Mon, 01 Jun 98 21:18:32 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Interesting idea, but doubtful. All writings we have by Columbus are in Spanish, with occasional smatterings of Latin and the odd Portuguese word thown in here or there. Very little Italian usage at all. The word "Indies" was a term in wide use in the Middle Ages, refering generally to all lands east of the Ottoman Empire. Thus Columbus was not seeking India, in the modern sense, but "The Indies" in the general sense, i.e., the orient. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > I got the following request for information through email. I do not know > the answer to this question, so I'm asking if any of you can give some > information of interest on this subject. > > > I have been poring over your Columbus information to find something. I > > once read somewhere that Columbus, a religious man, called the first > > people he saw in the new world "Gente in Dio" god's people in Italian. > > He noted that they were naked as they were born, and this makes more > > sense to me than the folkloric myth that Columbus thought he was in the > > Indies, which weren't called that in 1492. (Though the region was > > called Hindustan.) > > > > -- > Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 > http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > > A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order > will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jun 7 17:57:11 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA13115 (ESMTP). Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:57:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id RAA13459. Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:54:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA13455 (ESMTP). Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:54:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery id RAA18810. Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:54:03 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199806071554.RAA18810@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] New Book on Van Linschoten To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:54:02 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O This article was originally sent to the list by Peter van de Krogt, but was refused by majordomo because it was sent from another address than the one from which he is subscribed. And as I'm talking to you anyway: The new archives for the discovery list will be found at http://www.escribe.com/history/de/ . For the older posts (or if you prefer large files to hypertext browsing) you can find them at http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/discovery/list/list.html Andre Engels, list manager ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear all, Just published: Roelof van Gelder, Jan Parmentier, & Vibeke Roeper, Souffrir pour parvenir: De wereld van Jan Huygen van Linschoten. Haarlem: Uitgeverij Arcadia, 1998. 208 pp. ISBN 90-6613-006-7. Price Hfl. 34.50. The volume includes ten contributions on all facets of the life and works of Jan Huygen van Linschoten (c. 1562-1611), who after a long stay in the East-Indies in Portuguese service, published in 1595 his _Reys-gheschrift_ and in 1596 his _Itinerario_, which became important sources on the East-Indies for the Dutch. Both books were published by Cornelis Claesz. All contributions are in Dutch, there are no summaries. Peter ______________________________________________________ Visit the MapHist WWW page YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115 3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands e-mail: p.vanderkrogt@geog.uu.nl and pvdk@delftnet.nl Fax +31 15 212 6063 YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jun 11 22:40:32 1998 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA06007 (ESMTP). Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:40:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id WAA07073. Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:36:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA07067 (ESMTP). Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:36:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from andromeda.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.17] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA08601 (ESMTP). Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:35:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default (th-pm01-33.ndirect.co.uk [195.7.225.97]) by andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA10028; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:52:55 +0100 Message-Id: <199806111752.SAA10028@andromeda.ndirect.co.uk> From: "A.H.Schulenburg" To: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , Subject: [EXP] new list - British Empire (EmpireHist) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:51:26 +0100 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Please forward this message to any colleagues (and lists) you think may be interested in subscribing to this NEW list. To allow the list to establish a body of subscribers, please wait a few days before mailing contributions. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- NEW - AN E-MAIL DISCUSSION GROUP ON THE HISTORY OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE ** EmpireHist - the 'British Empire Mailing List' ** EmpireHist, the British Empire Mailing List, is a new e-mail discussion group whose primary focus is the history of the British Empire and Commonwealth from the 15th century onwards. The list is open to all persons interested in the British Empire and in British colonial and imperial history. Discussion is encouraged on all aspects of this broad subject. The secondary purpose of EmpireHist is to encourage individuals to communicate current research; explore issues in imperial historiography; announce important news, vacancies, and new publications; investigate library and archive holdings; share information between conferences and the appearance of relevant journals; etc. The list is unmonitored - common standards of 'netiquette' apply. Commercial postings are discouraged. When replying to messages, please copy to the list, except when inappropriate. ** Subscribing to EmpireHist ** To subscribe to EmpireHist, send an e-mail message to and in the body of your message type: subscribe EmpireHist To unsubscribe from EmpireHist send the following message to the same address: unsubscribe EmpireHist Also see the 'EmpireHist Home Page' - http://members.tripod.com/~outposts ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Best regards, Alexander Schulenburg (University of Sussex & The St Helena Institute) a.h.schulenburg@st-helena.org EmpireHist@st-helena.org From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jun 22 18:16:27 1998 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA29618 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:16:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA12970. Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:12:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA12966 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:12:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from carbon.uunet.be [194.7.1.21] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA11827 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:12:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pool051a-109.innet.be (pool051a-109.innet.be [194.7.8.109]) by carbon.uunet.be (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10147; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:12:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199806221612.SAA10147@carbon.uunet.be> X-Sender: pub00721@pophost.club.innet.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:11:02 +0000 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Deckers Johan Subject: [EXP] whelsh prince discovers America? Cc: pub00721@pophost.club.innet.be Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Last week I came upon a story about a prince Madoc (Madog ab Owon Gwynned)who sailed west from Wales in 1170 with a colony of countrymen. He arrived in what now is called Alabama, left the 120 man there, returned to Wales, fitted out an expedition of ten ships, fitted with men and sailed to the west. He disappeared for ever. In the language of a local Indian tribe, the Mandans, were found words of Welsh origin. The story appeared in print in 1583 and Hakluyt printed the story in his "Voyages" (1589). In the "European discovery of America - Northern America", S.E. Morison describes the whole story as a fable, "that would be elaborated and believed wherever there is a Welshman or two". Who knows more about this fascinating story, what's true about it or is it only a legend? Johan Deckers From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jun 22 20:29:30 1998 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA00602 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:29:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA13545. Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:28:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA13541 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:28:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@calvino.alaska.net [209.112.130.6] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA00536 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:28:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [209.112.136.33] (jdc-p2-33.alaska.net [209.112.136.33]) by calvino.alaska.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA22854 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:27:50 -0800 (AKDT) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:27:50 -0800 (AKDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: deelong@alaska.net (Dee Longenbaugh) Subject: Re: [EXP] whelsh prince discovers America? Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Since the Mandans lived several thousand miles away, on the upper reaches of the Missouri River it would seem odd for them to have summer homes in Alabama (or would it be winter?) I think it's part of the ancient "if it wasn't European there obviously was nothing worthwhile" approach to the peopling of the Earth; vite the Fusang tale. Dee Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA 235 Second Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone 907/586-9676 Fax 907/586-9606 deelong@alaska.net From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jun 22 20:31:21 1998 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA00617 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:31:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA13588. Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:30:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA13582 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:30:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.rio.com [206.96.130.8] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA00613 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:30:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from inti (p48.t0.rio.com [208.137.122.48]) by rio.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA04115 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:29:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Liz Oakley" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Welsh prince discovers America? Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:33:28 -0700 Message-ID: <000101bd9e0c$402366e0$01c8c8c8@inti> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199806221612.SAA10147@carbon.uunet.be> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I have just recently learned of this "legend" myself. Here's a modern anecdote to add to it: An acquaintance who is studying Hebridean folklore recently told me of some Welsh-speaking friends who were visiting in the eastern part of the United States. They were speaking Welsh with each other when they were approached by a native American man who asked them, with some astonishment, how it was that they came to speak his language. After hearing this, I became curious and did a bit of research. From 1584 to the early 1800s, stories about "white" Indians conversant in the Welsh tongue abounded. Even Daniel Boone thought that a tribe of "blue-eyed Indians" he had met was probably related to the Welsh. Archaeological support has centered upon three ruined forts, apparently of pre-Columbian origin, on sites near Chattanooga. Considered to be unlike native construction in the region, they seem to date back to the 12th century. American artist George Catlin, who painted tribal portraits and scenes in the 1830s, expressed his "ardent enthusiasm" for unusual Mandan, who lived in the upper regions of the Missouri River. Not only did he find the women "exceedingly pleasing and beautiful," he also came to believe that their customs and looks clearly indicated an origin different from other tribes. Fact or attractive legend? Someone of authority clearly wanted to believe it to be fact. A memorial tablet set up in 1953 at Fort Morgan, Mobile Bay, Alabama, reads: "In memory of Prince Madoc, a Welsh explorer, who landed on the shores of Mobile Bay in 1170 and left behind, with the Indians, the Welsh language." Now I'm wondering if there has been any recent, scholarly look at this story. ============================================ Liz Oakley WALKING TREE PRESS PO Box 871, Pleasant Hill, Oregon 97455, USA Tel: + (541)744-1773 / Fax: + (541) 744-5950 / SAN 299-5751 LizOakley@WalkingTree.com http://www.WalkingTree.com id XAA01542 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:38:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id XAA14267. Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:37:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin10 [131.155.70.127] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA14263 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:37:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from listmail.cc.uga.edu [128.192.232.10] by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA02214 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:37:01 +0200 (MET DST) From: jsigalas@virtual.park.uga.edu Received: from virtual.park.uga.edu by listmail.cc.uga.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.5C79B5E0@listmail.cc.uga.edu>; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:37:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (jsigalas@localhost) by virtual.park.uga.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id RAA22681 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:36:58 -0400 (EDT) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] welsh prince discovers America? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Actually, I think, the story's propagation after the 1492 encounter has much more to do with the English wanting to prove a claim to the area that pre-dated Columbus's voyage. Stories about St. Brendan's voyages were used for the same reason. Joseph Sigalas University of Georgia On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Dee Longenbaugh wrote: > Since the Mandans lived several thousand miles away, on the upper reaches > of the Missouri River it would seem odd for them to have summer homes in > Alabama (or would it be winter?) > I think it's part of the ancient "if it wasn't European there > obviously was nothing worthwhile" approach to the peopling of the Earth; > vite the Fusang tale. > Dee > > Dee Longenbaugh > The Observatory, ABAA > 235 Second Street > Juneau, Alaska 99801 > Telephone 907/586-9676 > Fax 907/586-9606 > deelong@alaska.net > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jun 22 23:50:24 1998 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA01779 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:50:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id XAA14377. Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:49:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin10 [131.155.70.127] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA14372 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:49:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.ecu.edu [150.216.5.194] by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA02438 (ESMTP). Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:49:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.ecu.edu (205-29-233.ipt.aol.com [152.205.29.233]) by ecuimc.ecu.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id NNQLQ7GW; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:48:16 -0400 Message-ID: <358EA9FF.5110E749@mail.ecu.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:01:19 -0400 From: "E. Thomson Shields, Jr." X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] whelsh prince discovers America? References: <199806221612.SAA10147@carbon.uunet.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The story of Prince Madoc is fable, or at least legend, not existing in any wide-spread manner until John Dee printed it in the 1580s at a time when some British citizens were looking for reasons to promote exploration and settlement in America. The Madoc story put British subjects in North America prior to Spanish exploration and settlement in the region, thus giving precedence to British claims on the land (in European eyes). What Dee's source was, if any at all, I don't know. The story of finding Welsh speaking Native Americans--including but not limited to the Mandans--is found throughout eighteenth- and nineteenth-century folklore. One of my favorite versions tells of people in the Pueblo Indian town of Zuņi who have blue eyes and, thus are fabled to be descendants of Madoc. Other versions of finding Welsh-speaking Indians tell of explorers going through the Appalachians and not being able to speak with certain Native Americans encountered using any of the known native languages or dialects until the lowly Welsh porter at the back of the train recognizes their speech and begins to talk Welsh with them. I don't have access to the bibliographic information on sources about the Madoc legend at hand, but there are sources on the subject. Even if there is little historical basis for the story, it is a fun one to know and discuss. Tom Shields -- E. Thomson Shields, Jr., Director Roanoke Colonies Research Office c/o Department of English East Carolina University Greenville, NC 27858-4353 Voice: (252) 328-6715 Fax: (252) 328-4889 http://www.ecu.edu/rcro/ Deckers Johan wrote: > Last week I came upon a story about a prince Madoc (Madog ab Owon > Gwynned)who sailed west from Wales in 1170 with a colony of countrymen. He > arrived in what now is called Alabama, left the 120 man there, returned to > Wales, fitted out an expedition of ten ships, fitted with men and sailed to > the west. He disappeared for ever. > In the language of a local Indian tribe, the Mandans, were found words of > Welsh origin. > The story appeared in print in 1583 and Hakluyt printed the story in his > "Voyages" (1589). > In the "European discovery of America - Northern America", S.E. Morison > describes the whole story as a fable, "that would be elaborated and believed > wherever there is a Welshman or two". > Who knows more about this fascinating story, what's true about it or is it > only a legend? > > Johan Deckers From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jun 23 00:03:57 1998 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA01882 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:03:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA14528. Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:03:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin10 [131.155.70.127] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA14524 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:03:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from andromeda.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.17] by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA02530 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:03:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default (th-pm01-33.ndirect.co.uk [195.7.225.97]) by andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA12381 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:03:04 +0100 Message-Id: <199806222203.XAA12381@andromeda.ndirect.co.uk> From: "A.H.Schulenburg" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Welsh prince discovers America? Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:01:23 +0100 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000101bd9e0c$402366e0$01c8c8c8@inti> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR > Now I'm wondering if there has been any recent, scholarly > look at this story. For a summary of the debate (and for a bibliography), have a look at http://www.barstow.cc.ca.us/wac/madoc.htm for a copy of the following essay: "A CONSIDERATION: WAS AMERICA DISCOVERED IN 1170 BY PRINCE MADOC AB OWAIN GWYNEDD OF WALES?" By Jayne Wanner Best regards, Alexander Schulenburg From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jun 23 00:33:05 1998 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA02217 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:33:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA14955. Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:31:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA14951 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:31:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f153.hotmail.com [207.82.251.32] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA02204 (SMTP). Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:31:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 27508 invoked by uid 0); 22 Jun 1998 22:31:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19980622223111.27507.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.255.165.225 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:31:10 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.255.165.225] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] whelsh prince discovers America? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:31:10 PDT Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR This is an old and well-known and often written about story. Where to begin? The tale naturally divides into two parts: Madoc and the Welsh, and the "Welsh Indians." The later has turned out to be a will-o-wisp. Chase it if you want, but the "White Indians" are always "the next tribe, around the next river bend. We do not know them first-hand, but, as with you, we have heard of them from third parties. A friend of a friend has met them." There just may be something to the Madoc tale. But, then again, maybe not. Ninety-nine plus percent of all of the evidence, i.e., documents and texts directly or indirectly relating to Madoc or the Welsh sailing to a great land in the west, came after the discovery of America and, especially, during and after the resurgence of British interest in discoveries, exploration, and colonization in the time of Hakluyt, Dee, Gilbert, and others. And, then again, when the British and British Americans began exploring and colonizing the trans-Appalachian and Midwest in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. There is a very large (huge) body of literature on this topic, both popular and scholarly. A couple of books from which to start are: Deacon, Richard, MADOC AND THE DISCOVERY OF AMERICA: SOME NEW LIGHT ON AN OLD CONTROVERSY, New York: George Braziller, 1966. Williams, Gwyn A., MADOC: THE LEGEND OF THE WELSH DISCOVERY OF AMERICA, [n.p.]: Eyre Methuen Ltd., 1979; Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press, 1987. I believe the most fruitful area of research is the medieval romances of Reynard, Arthur, Madoc, etc. But these are European, technical, dry, and not very exciting. I believe the least fruitful area of research is the Welsh Indians or White Indians. This is American, exciting, curious, interesting, and controversial. But it is also a dead end. If you do chase after the Mandans, Mobile Bay, and the Chattanooga forts (how does anyone know they are from the twelfth century and not the eighth or the fourteenth or the eighteenth!!?), try to balance it with what modern anthropologists, linguists, and archaeologists have to say about Native Americans and the Mandans. But that is only my opinion. Good luck, Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jun 23 01:13:34 1998 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA02541 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:13:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id BAA15403. Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:12:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA15399 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:12:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@calvino.alaska.net [209.112.130.6] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA19208 (ESMTP). Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:11:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [209.112.136.153] (jdc-p50-153.alaska.net [209.112.136.153]) by calvino.alaska.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16816 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:11:48 -0800 (AKDT) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:11:48 -0800 (AKDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <358EA9FF.5110E749@mail.ecu.edu> References: <199806221612.SAA10147@carbon.uunet.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [EXP] whelsh prince discovers America? Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Tom Shields is probably quite right in agreeing on the English desire to pre-date Columbus, but I work on Russian mapping of Alaska and have found even today there is a reluctance on the part of Europeans and Americans to give credit to mapping earlier than theirs. This is, of course, compounded by the secrecy of the Russians, as well as the difficulty of the language, but there's still a whiff of "the only authentic discoveries" attitude. By the way, sorry for "vite" when I meant "vide". Thanks. Dee Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA 235 Second Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 deelong@alaska.net 907/586-9676 fax 907/586-9606 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jun 24 07:41:54 1998 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA29843 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:41:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id HAA23537. Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:38:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA23533 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:38:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA18754 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:38:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA28917 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:37:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806240537.AAA28917@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> Received: from nyc-ny68-49.ix.netcom.com(209.109.225.241) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma028900; Wed Jun 24 00:37:27 1998 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Douglas W Sims To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] welsh prince discovers America? X-Mailer: MailRoom v2.0c Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The most recent treatment of the Madoc legend, with good attention to the sources, is by Alan G. Macpherson in vol. 1 of 'North American Exploration,' ed. John Allen Logan. Lincoln, 1997, pp. 18-21 and 454-455 (for the notes). Doug Douglas W Sims gastaldi@ix.netcom.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jun 28 05:05:45 1998 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA07946 (ESMTP). Sun, 28 Jun 1998 05:05:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id FAA16264. Sun, 28 Jun 1998 05:01:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA16260 (ESMTP). Sun, 28 Jun 1998 05:01:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f126.hotmail.com [207.82.251.5] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA03954 (SMTP). Sun, 28 Jun 1998 05:01:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 5534 invoked by uid 0); 28 Jun 1998 03:00:28 -0000 Message-ID: <19980628030028.5533.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.255.163.176 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:00:28 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.255.163.176] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] St. Helena Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:00:28 PDT Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Someone (Alexander Schulenburg?) a few months ago made some inquiries about the discovery of St. Helena Island in the South Atlantic. I recently came across the following. I have not seen it nor read it, so I cannot vouch for its quality. Perhaps it has a good bibliography; perhaps you already know the book. Phillip Gosse, . Illustrated, 447 pages. [n.p. (England?)]: Anthony Nelson, [n.d. (1997?)]. It was originally published in 1938 and has now been reprinted. I have the information on how to order it from a book dealer for US$12.95, if you or anyone else is interested. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jun 28 18:15:14 1998 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA12825 (ESMTP). Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:15:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA17177. Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:12:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin08 [131.155.70.71] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA17173 (ESMTP). Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:12:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from zeus.netdirect.net.uk [195.7.224.6] by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA05111 (ESMTP). Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:12:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default (th-pm01-44.ndirect.co.uk [195.7.225.108]) by zeus.netdirect.net.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA28484 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:11:43 +0100 Message-Id: <199806281611.RAA28484@zeus.netdirect.net.uk> From: "A.H.Schulenburg" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] St. Helena Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:09:49 +0100 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <19980628030028.5533.qmail@hotmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Yes, I did indeed request information about St Helena's discovery. Thank you for telling me about Gosse's history, which I do know well. In fact, I am currently working on a new history of the island to be published in 2001. For those of you who are interested in St Helena, Gosse's book is still well worth reading, even though it is very parochial and fails to place the island's history in context. Neither does it provide much by way of analysis. But it does give the flavour of a place, in the long history of which Napoleon was a mere blip. Regards, Alexander Schulenburg > Someone (Alexander Schulenburg?) a few months ago made some inquiries > about the discovery of St. Helena Island in the South Atlantic. I > recently came across the following. I have not seen it nor read it, so > I cannot vouch for its quality. Perhaps it has a good bibliography; > perhaps you already know the book. Phillip Gosse, . > Illustrated, 447 pages. [n.p. (England?)]: Anthony Nelson, [n.d. (1997?)]. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jun 29 19:41:42 1998 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA09076 (ESMTP). Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:41:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA23160. Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:38:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA23156 (ESMTP). Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:37:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from delftnet.nl [194.229.15.1] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA11548 (ESMTP). Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:37:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from peter (modem1.delftnet.nl [194.229.15.254]) by delftnet.nl (8.8.2/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA13333 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:37:58 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980629193358.006b3704@delftnet.nl> X-Sender: pvdk@delftnet.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:33:58 +0200 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: [EXP] STATUE OF ERASMUS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Dear all, The message reproduced below was last week in MapHist. On Saturday 27 June there was a photograph and a short article in the newspaper _NRC Handelsblad_. The photo and the text are on the MapHist illustration page: http://kartoserver.geog.uu.nl/HTML/STAFF/krogt/maphist/illustr.htm Peter Original message: >Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:31:20 +0000 >From: sjoerd >Subject: STATUE OF ERASMUS >To: Multiple recipients of list MAPHIST > >On saturday the 27th June 1998 in the Maritime Museum 'Prins Hendrik' >in Rotterdam an exhibition will be opened with Japanese prints of the >of the Dutch in Nagasaki. >Although there are no cartographic materials in this exhibition, it >could be worthwile to visit the exhibition. Highlight of the >exhibition will be a statue of Erasmus. This statue formed part of >the "Liefde", one of the ships of the fleet of Mahu and the Cordes >which left in 1598 from Rotterdam with the intention to sail to the >East Indies via the the Street of Magelhaes. The "Liefde" did not >reach the East Indies (just as the other ships), but arrived in 1600 >in Japan. The statue will be seen in the Museum until the end of >september. The exhibition itself will stay until november 1998. > >Sjoerd de Meer >Maritiem Museum 'Prins Hendrik' >Leuvehaven 1, 3011 EA Rotterdam, the Netherlands >e-mail : demeer@mmph.nl >www.mmph.nl >Met vriendelijke groet > >Sjoerd de meer > >