From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Feb 1 21:20:40 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA29647 (ESMTP). Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:20:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA20524. Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:16:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA20520 (ESMTP). Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:16:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA26562 (ESMTP). Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:16:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from Bertil ([193.180.104.252]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA22519 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:10:54 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <01cc01be4e17$bb87b500$6365a8c0@Bertil.helsingborg.se> From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bertil_H=E4ggman?=" To: Subject: [EXP] Leif Erikson Celebration in 2000 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:18:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >And another question to ignite the list: My third graders are proposing = a >holiday in the US for the Viking Explorers, Leif Eiriksson in = particular, >who preceded Columbus. ("Who was lost!" they indignantly include). Any >support for this thought? Of course, the year 2000 will be a great celebration of the millenium of the discovery of America by the Leif Erikson. The difference of course between Erikson and Columbus was that the vikings were too few to create permanent settlements in what is today Canada. Best wishes Bertil Haggman, Sweden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Feb 1 22:48:57 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA00356 (ESMTP). Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:48:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id WAA21007. Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:46:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA21003 (ESMTP). Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:46:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from SGI5917ef1.iddeo.es [62.81.31.133] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA27037 (ESMTP). Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:46:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from epsilon ([62.81.84.7]) by smtp2.retemail.es (InterMail v4.00.03.01 201-229-104-101) with SMTP id <19990201231333.RBFB1248.smtp2@epsilon> for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:13:33 +0100 Message-ID: <002301be4e34$a45ee160$0754513e@epsilon> From: "Jose Antonio Hurtado Garcia" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Leif Erikson Celebration in 2000 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:44:30 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0810.800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0810.800 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Particularly I don't believe in Columbus's trip, it is more in my Web page you can see the reasons, but among Leif Ericson, and Columbus is a great difference in favor of the last one, and it is that for his trip, all a society found out that further on other lands existed, and it stops well or for bad of those born in them many people of that old society crossed an ocean. That of Ericson, was an adventure among friends; the greatness is not in the arrival; a timber that comes unfastened in the Hierro island, arrives unfailingly to the American costs. The greatness, (or if one wants the misfortune) it consists on the conscience that takes the European society of the existence of other cultures beyond the Atlantic. José Antonio Hurtado García jahurtado@pagina.de http://pagina.de/jahurtado http://pagina.de/hurtado ----- Mensaje original ----- De: Bertil Häggman Para: Enviado: lunes 1 de febrero de 1999 18:18 Jose Asunto: [EXP] Leif Erikson Celebration in 2000 >And another question to ignite the list: My third graders are proposing a >holiday in the US for the Viking Explorers, Leif Eiriksson in particular, >who preceded Columbus. ("Who was lost!" they indignantly include). Any >support for this thought? Of course, the year 2000 will be a great celebration of the millenium of the discovery of America by the Leif Erikson. The difference of course between Erikson and Columbus was that the vikings were too few to create permanent settlements in what is today Canada. Best wishes Bertil Haggman, Sweden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Feb 2 22:02:33 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA29552 (ESMTP). Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:02:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA27735. Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:55:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin10 [131.155.70.127] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA27731 (ESMTP). Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:55:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA21245 (ESMTP). Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:55:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from Bertil ([193.180.104.252]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA16991 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:50:12 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <038101be4ee6$608c3ac0$3265a8c0@Bertil.helsingborg.se> From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bertil_H=E4ggman?=" To: Subject: SV: [EXP] Leif Erikson Celebration in 2000 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:33:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr >That of Ericson, was an adventure among friends; the greatness is not = in the >arrival; a timber that comes unfastened in the Hierro island, arrives >unfailingly to the American costs. The greatness, (or if one wants the >misfortune) it consists on the conscience that takes the European = society >of the existence of other cultures beyond the Atlantic. Well, adventure among friends. Some sources say Bjani Herjulfsson discovered North America when blown off course journeying to Greenland in 985. Irish monks could of course have preceded Bjarni. Leif Eiriksson (Eriksson) prospected the newly found territory from Greenland. And there are three seperate areas named by the vikings: Markland (forestland), probably Labrador. Vinland (meadowland), probably North Newfoundland. Helluland (flat stone land), Baffins Land ? Fighting with local natives (skraelings) probably also persuaded Leif to abandon settlement attempts. In a book published on occasion of a Viking exhibition i England (1980) by James Graham- Campbell asnd Dafydd Kidd is claimed that: ".dountless there were other Viking voyages to the North American coast which are not recorded in the literature, and these perhaps resulted in ephmeral settlement, but the salient point is that discoveries were=20 not exploited. Although agriculturally rich and accesible by sea and inland waterways, America was a the end of a very long chain of communication. Conflict with the hostile natives proved too demralising for the isolated immigrants, and the period of dynamic Scandinavian expansion had effectively ended by the time this New World was=20 discovered" (p. 70). Best greetings Bertil Haggman From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Feb 2 22:28:40 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA29703 (ESMTP). Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:28:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id WAA27936. Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:25:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA27931 (ESMTP). Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:25:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id WAA23441. Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:25:10 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199902022125.WAA23441@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: SV: [EXP] Leif Erikson Celebration in 2000 In-Reply-To: <038101be4ee6$608c3ac0$3265a8c0@Bertil.helsingborg.se> from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bertil_H=E4ggman?= at "Feb 2, 1999 7:33: 2 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:25:09 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bertil_H=E4ggman?= wrote: > Well, adventure among friends. Some sources say > Bjani Herjulfsson discovered North America when > blown off course journeying to Greenland in 985. > Irish monks could of course have preceded > Bjarni. Small correction: the date generally given for Bjarni's probable voyage is 987, not 985. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled but a fire that is set ablaze. -- N.N. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 3 03:28:27 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA01699 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:28:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id DAA29088. Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:26:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA29084 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:26:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA12115 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:26:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from lizard (dialup-pm7-30.minn.net [208.16.89.220]) by mail.minn.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA00579 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:26:31 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.minn.net: Host dialup-pm7-30.minn.net [208.16.89.220] claimed to be lizard From: "Keith Pickering" To: Subject: Re: SV: [EXP] Leif Erikson Celebration in 2000 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:29:09 -0600 Message-ID: <01be4f1c$fa4d4880$LocalHost@lizard> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.01.2111 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.01.2111 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Which raises an interesting point: if Rob's third-graders won't give Columbus the credit for discovery because "he was lost," then Bjarni shouldn't get credit either, because he was lost, too! And Leif shouldn't get credit, since he already knew it was there, and thus didn't actually discover anything. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net ========================================= Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage http://www1.minn.net/~keithp ========================================= -----Original Message----- From: Andre Engels To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 3:30 PM Subject: Re: SV: [EXP] Leif Erikson Celebration in 2000 > >Small correction: the date generally given for Bjarni's probable voyage >is 987, not 985. > > >-- >Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 >http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > >A child is not a glass that is filled but a fire that is set ablaze. > -- N.N. > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 3 00:08:01 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA00828 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:08:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA28429. Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:05:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA28425 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:05:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from SGI3974ef1.iddeo.es [62.81.31.132] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA29675 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:05:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from epsilon ([62.81.84.206]) by smtp1.retemail.es (InterMail v4.00.03.01 201-229-104-101) with SMTP id <19990203003033.SXYN1249.smtp1@epsilon> for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:30:33 +0100 Message-ID: <001d01be4f08$7582ed80$1354513e@epsilon> From: "Jose Antonio Hurtado Garcia" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Leif Erikson Celebration in 2000 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:00:56 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0810.800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0810.800 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Indeed, nobody has refused that Erikson discovered America; in the same way that Jaume Ferrer discovered it near the 1350, the Irishmen for the 650, and the fenicio Hammon much before. They, discovered America, but Europe, the western culture doesn't discover it up to March 4 1493 in that Columbus enters in Lisbon, and if it is not for that reason, today America could belong to the culture euroásiática instead of to the Westerner, thing that demonstrated Mr. Heyerdhal many years ago already with the expedition Lakon Tiki. If the current American town, from Alaska to the Earth of the Fire, is into in the western culture it is not because Erikson was the first one in arriving in America. And it was not even the first, if I don't unite more than the long list of well-known and adventurous strangers that until there they navigated for both sides of the continent. In all ways, we should not forget that the whole adventure of Erickson, it is only known through the saga of Karlseffni, translated Latin last century in full time of the Swedish government's nationalist furor, for internal reasons, logically. This saga, leans on directly in the legend of Brandán, and the territories that are identified as American's land they can be of other places and they are merely speculative based on both narrations. The tests of L'Anse of Medows doesn't have archaeological value some, scientifically speaking, and the map of Vinlandia was already demonstrated many years ago it was as false as the sheet of Turín, because the work was carried out by the same company. Historically speaking, in America is objective testimonies of the vikings presence in times that correspond that of their expansion, but nothing else. Thanks. José Antonio Hurtado García jahurtado@pagina.de http://pagina.de/jahurtado http://pagina.de/hurtado ----- Mensaje original ----- De: Bertil Häggman Para: Enviado: martes 2 de febrero de 1999 17:33 Jose Asunto: SV: [EXP] Leif Erikson Celebration in 2000 >That of Ericson, was an adventure among friends; the greatness is not in the >arrival; a timber that comes unfastened in the Hierro island, arrives >unfailingly to the American costs. The greatness, (or if one wants the >misfortune) it consists on the conscience that takes the European society >of the existence of other cultures beyond the Atlantic. Well, adventure among friends. Some sources say Bjani Herjulfsson discovered North America when blown off course journeying to Greenland in 985. Irish monks could of course have preceded Bjarni. Leif Eiriksson (Eriksson) prospected the newly found territory from Greenland. And there are three seperate areas named by the vikings: Markland (forestland), probably Labrador. Vinland (meadowland), probably North Newfoundland. Helluland (flat stone land), Baffins Land ? Fighting with local natives (skraelings) probably also persuaded Leif to abandon settlement attempts. In a book published on occasion of a Viking exhibition i England (1980) by James Graham- Campbell asnd Dafydd Kidd is claimed that: ".dountless there were other Viking voyages to the North American coast which are not recorded in the literature, and these perhaps resulted in ephmeral settlement, but the salient point is that discoveries were not exploited. Although agriculturally rich and accesible by sea and inland waterways, America was a the end of a very long chain of communication. Conflict with the hostile natives proved too demralising for the isolated immigrants, and the period of dynamic Scandinavian expansion had effectively ended by the time this New World was discovered" (p. 70). Best greetings Bertil Haggman From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 3 14:45:58 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA23447 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:45:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id OAA01933. Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:34:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin08 [131.155.70.71] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA01929 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:33:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4] by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA13769 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:33:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from europa.dreamscape.com (europa.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.147]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA23016 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:33:24 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: europa.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.147] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:33:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from future.dreamscape.com (sA11-p58.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.122]) by europa.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA24957 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:33:23 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA11-p58.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.122] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:33:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36B8504A.5CBAB704@future.dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 08:34:02 -0500 From: "Donald A. Donath" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: SV: [EXP] Leif Erikson Celebration in 2000 References: <01be4f1c$fa4d4880$LocalHost@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO In 1997 Newfoundland held the Cabot 500 celebration. Is there any plan for a Viking 1000? Don From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 3 21:07:33 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA27767 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:07:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA03780. Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:03:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin08 [131.155.70.71] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA03771 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:03:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA15962 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:03:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from Bertil ([193.180.104.252]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA06778 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:58:06 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <008401be4fa8$445b80a0$5965a8c0@Bertil.helsingborg.se> From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bertil_H=E4ggman?=" To: Subject: [EXP] Leif Eriksson Celebrations 2000 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:36:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE4FAC.9105D3C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE4FAC.9105D3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In 1997 Newfoundland held the Cabot 500 celebration. Is there any plan for a Viking 1000? Don, Of course. There is an extensive US website for the planned celebrations in the United States and Canada. Underneath the site for the Greenland celebrations. Will come back with more unless somebody else has the address handy for the American site. http://www.greenland-guide.gl/leif2000/default.htm Best wishes Bertil Haggman ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE4FAC.9105D3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In 1997 Newfoundland held the Cabot 500 celebration.
Is there = any plan=20 for a Viking 1000?
 
Don,
 
Of course. There is an extensive US website = for
the planned celebrations in the United = States
and Canada. Underneath the site for the = Greenland
celebrations. Will come back with more = unless
somebody else has the address handy for = the
American site.
 
 
http://www.gr= eenland-guide.gl/leif2000/default.htm
 
Best wishes
 
Bertil = Haggman
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE4FAC.9105D3C0-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 3 21:07:35 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA27773 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:07:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA03781. Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:03:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA03776 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:03:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA11969 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:03:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from Bertil ([193.180.104.252]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA06790 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:58:13 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <008801be4fa8$488c3200$5965a8c0@Bertil.helsingborg.se> From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bertil_H=E4ggman?=" To: Subject: SV: SV: [EXP] Leif Erikson Celebration in 2000 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:52:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr >Small correction: the date generally given for Bjarni's probable voyage >is 987, not 985. Don't be too sure. All my sources (and I have some) have 985 or 986. So you will have to present evidence for 987. Best greetings Bertil Haggman From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 3 21:32:07 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA27943 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:32:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA04050. Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:29:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA04046 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:29:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA12163 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:29:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from Bertil ([193.180.104.252]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA07475 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:23:38 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <000f01be4fab$d5fa38a0$5965a8c0@Bertil.helsingborg.se> From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bertil_H=E4ggman?=" To: Subject: [EXP] LEMC Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:29:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE4FB3.F6CB2000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE4FB3.F6CB2000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For listmembers who want to know everything about the Leif Ericson Millenium Celebration in the United States and Canada, see address underneath: http://www.leif2000.org/lemc.dll/Default With Ericsonian Greetings Bertil Haggman ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE4FB3.F6CB2000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For listmembers who want to know=20 everything
about the Leif = Ericson=20 Millenium Celebration
in the United States and Canada, see = address
underneath:
 
 
http://www.leif2000.org= /lemc.dll/Default
 
With Ericsonian = Greetings
 
Bertil = Haggman
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE4FB3.F6CB2000-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 3 21:41:16 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA27983 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:41:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA04172. Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:39:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA04168 (ESMTP). Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:39:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id VAA10654. Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:38:57 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199902032038.VAA10654@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: SV: SV: [EXP] Leif Erikson Celebration in 2000 In-Reply-To: <008801be4fa8$488c3200$5965a8c0@Bertil.helsingborg.se> from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bertil_H=E4ggman?= at "Feb 3, 1999 7:52:30 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:38:57 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bertil_H=E4ggman?= wrote: > > >Small correction: the date generally given for Bjarni's probable voyage > >is 987, not 985. > > > Don't be too sure. All my sources (and I have some) > have 985 or 986. So you will have to present evidence > for 987. Looking through the data again, 986 seems indeed the most likely date. Bjarni was man of much promise. From early youth he had been eager to sail for foreign lands; he earned himself both welath and a good reputation, and used to spend his winters alternately abroad and in Iceland with his father. He soon had a merchant ship of his own. During the last winter that Bjarni spent in Norway, his father, Herjolf, sold up the farm and emigrated to Greenland with Eirik the Red. [...] Bjarni arrived in Iceland at Eyrar in the Summer of the year that his father had left for Greenland. The news came as a shock to Bjarni, and he refused to have his ship unloaded. His crew asked him what he had in mind; he replied that he intended to keep his custom of enjoying his father's hospitality over the winter - 'so I want to sail my ship to Greenland, if you are willing to come with me'. This clearly puts Bjarni's voyage in the same year as the one in which Eric had his colonizing voyage. Further back in the saga it says: He [Eric the Red] sailed back to Iceland the following Summer and put in at Breidafjord. He named the country he had discovered Greelnad, for he said that people would be much more tempted to go there if it had an attractive name. Eirik spent the winter in Iceland. Next Summer he set of to colonize Greenland, and he made his home at Brattahlid, Eriksfjord. Now, the year that Eric returned to Iceland from his exile is generally assumed to be 985. This would make his colonizing expedition take place in 986, and Herjulf's voyage then would also have taken place in that same year. For some reason, I had all this in my head for one year later. quotes from: The Vinland Sagas. The Norse Discovery of America. Harmondsworth: Penguin Books (1965). Translated with an introduction by Magnus Magnusson and Hermann Palsson. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled but a fire that is set ablaze. -- N.N. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Feb 4 21:46:33 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA25773 (ESMTP). Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:46:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA12111. Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:42:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA12107 (ESMTP). Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:42:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA00237 (ESMTP). Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:41:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from Bertil ([193.180.104.252]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA25788 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:36:22 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <016c01be5076$c98433c0$3f65a8c0@Bertil.helsingborg.se> From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bertil_H=E4ggman?=" To: Subject: [EXP] Leif Erikson and Sweden Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:43:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >In all ways, we should not forget that the whole adventure of Erickson, = it >is only known through the saga of Karlseffni, translated Latin last = century >in full time of the Swedish government's nationalist furor, for = internal >reasons, logically. Am not quite sure of the meaning "translated Latin last century in full time of the Swedish government's nationalist furor". Leif was an Icelander. The Icelanders originally came from Norway. Swedish vikings raided in Russia mainly and according to the Nestor Chronicle fouded the Russian state. The Swedish vikings were callade Varjagi but also Rus (compare Finnish name for Sweden, Ruotsi). So I cannot really see the connection. But as Scandinavians Swedes are mostly proud of Leif's achievement. After all he was a Nordic brother. Best wishes Bertil Haggman From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 10 14:56:59 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA28772 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:56:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id OAA13205. Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:48:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA13199 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:48:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from NBRMR1002.ac.com [170.252.248.71] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA21258 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:48:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from emehm1101.ac.com ([170.252.192.148]) by nbrmr1002.ac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA08535 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:39:18 -0600 (CST) Received: by emehm1101.ac.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.2 (693.3 8-11-1998)) id 86256714.004B748E ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:44:07 -0600 X-Lotus-FromDomain: AC_TELEKOM@AC FRANKFURT NET@ANDERSEN CONSULTING From: "Christian Farwig" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-ID: <86256714.004A705D.00@emehm1101.ac.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:51:27 +0100 Subject: [EXP] Greenland Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hi, triggered by the discussion about Leif and readings about the viking travels to America, I searched for sources covering the fate of the norsk colony on Greenland. It seems that the reasons for their decline and destruction is not known and remains to be a secret. Does anyone happens to know sources which could help to please my curiosity? Thanks, Christian n n n n From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 10 15:52:05 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA29326 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:52:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA13657. Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:47:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA13653 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:47:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from piva.ucs.mun.ca [134.153.2.63] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA21679 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:47:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from beothuk.swgc.mun.ca (beothuk.swgc.mun.ca [198.165.18.1]) by piva.ucs.mun.ca (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26570 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:14:46 -0330 (NST) Received: (from olaf@localhost) by beothuk.swgc.mun.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA12902; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:14:45 -0330 (NST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:14:45 -0330 (NST) From: Olaf Janzen To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Greenland In-Reply-To: <86256714.004A705D.00@emehm1101.ac.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Christian Farwig wrote: > Hi, > > triggered by the discussion about Leif and readings about the viking > travels to America, I searched for sources covering the fate of the norsk > colony on Greenland. It seems that the reasons for their decline and > destruction is not known and remains to be a secret. Does anyone happens to > know sources which could help to please my curiosity? > > Thanks, > > Christian The Danish Polar Center has just published "The Greenland Norse: A biological-anthropological study" by Niels Lynnerup. An extensive excerpt appears on their web page; point your browser to: http://www.dpc.dk/Publications/MoG/MS24.1.html Kirsten Seaver develops the provocative argument that the Norse in Greenland did not die out by 1500 but had migrated instead to somewhere in North America; see "The Frozen Echo: Greenland and the Exploration of North America A.D. 1000-1500" (Stanford University Press, 1996). Her conclusions have generated strong counter-arguments, but her research has been thorough, as even her critics concede. Another recent book by Farley Mowat postulates that the Norse were preceded to Greenland by Europeans he styles the "Albans". His argument is almost mischievously provocative, and overall, just plain silly; see "The Farfarers: Before the Norse" (Key Porter Books, 1998). Lynnerup and Seaver should provide a fairly solid exploration of the topic. I mention Mowat only as a caveat, as his book is still in the public eye to some extent, at least in Canada. Incidentally, there's also a fairly solid overview of the Norse on the "Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage Web Page" which touches upon the Greenland context (http://www.heritage.nf.ca/) Hope this helps. Olaf Janzen Corner Brook, NF From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 10 16:32:51 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA29866 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:32:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA13872. Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:30:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA13868 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:29:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us [146.115.194.10] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA21008 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:29:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from [146.115.194.135] by bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:33:10 -0400 X-Sender: reaston@bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <86256714.004A705D.00@emehm1101.ac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:33:00 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Robert W. Easton" Subject: Re: [EXP] Greenland Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO My admittedly secondary sources suggest that it was a failure to adapt to the rigors of the little ice age circa 1350 -1400 that ended the Viking habitation of Greenland. They finally died of starvation, indicated by the fact that they ate almost everything they could, right down to the last dog. Thanks for all the discussion about the possibility of celebrating a Viking holiday in the US. I'll tell you all how it works out. Rob Robert W. Easton Bancroft School Worcester, Massachusetts USA A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. --N.N. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 10 17:29:28 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA00609 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:29:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id RAA14151. Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:09:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA14147 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:09:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA14284 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:09:00 +0100 (MET) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id EQQLa03537 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:07:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <62e243db.36c1aed5@aol.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:07:49 EST To: discovery@win.tue.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EXP] Greenland Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO One of the hypotheses about the decline of the Greenland Colony concerned the slave trade. Seems white slaves brought fancier prices than black ones, but there were religious injuctions against enslaving Christians. The Portuguese freebooters sacked all around the rim of the Atlantic, and apparently hit the Eastern Settlement in Greenland repeatedly. The residents thereof naturally professed orthodox Christian beliefs under the circumstances, but informed the freebooters that the Western Settlement had relapsed into paganism, ergo.... There were a number of papal edicts and treaties relating to the liberation and return of such "slaves" during I believe the 14th century. (Sorry, don't have notes available at the moment). Hope this helps. Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 10 19:30:33 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA02742 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:30:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA15066. Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:28:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA15062 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:28:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA06723 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:28:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from Bertil ([193.180.104.252]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA27032 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:23:04 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <011401be551b$2fddde20$2565a8c0@Bertil.helsingborg.se> From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bertil_H=E4ggman?=" To: Subject: SV: [EXP] Greenland Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:28:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >triggered by the discussion about Leif and readings about the viking >travels to America, I searched for sources covering the fate of the = norsk >colony on Greenland. It seems that the reasons for their decline and >destruction is not known and remains to be a secret. Does anyone = happens to >know sources which could help to please my curiosity? Christian, One of the finest and most luxury descriptions of Norse Greenland, which I have in the second edition from 1982, is _Erik den roedes Groenland_ by Knud J. Krogh. Unfortunately for English readers and others it is bilingual in Danish and Greenlandic. I have extensive material from my participation on the Old Norse Net List. Will try to dig it up from my electronic archive. Some of the older Danish reports are of interest: Henrik M Jansen, A Critical account of the written and archaelogical sources' evidence concerning the Norse settlements in Greenland, Copenhagen 1972. W.Dansgaard et al., Climatic changes, Norsemen and modern man, Nature, 1975, pp. 24-28. Krogh writes that the mystery of the vanished settlements is still unsolved (but that was in 1982 and much more has been written on the fate of the Norse population). Theories abound because there is little source material: the Norse population was killed by the Inuit, English pirates struck and killed them, pestilence, degeneration,=20 emigration to America, they mixed with the Inuit, contacts with Europe failed, climate worsened, starvation etc etc Krogh has a detailed chapter (Oedegaardar =3D deserted farms) on the subject. If there is interest I will try to come back with later bibliographic material from the 1990s. Best wishes Bertil Haggman Author Member, Swedish Authors Association E-mail: bertil.haggman@helsingborg.se From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 10 21:29:55 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA04798 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:29:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA23188. Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:28:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA23045 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:27:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from SGI5917ef1.iddeo.es [62.81.31.133] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA09729 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:27:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from ret000xh ([62.81.84.208]) by smtp2.retemail.es (InterMail v4.00.03.01 201-229-104-101) with SMTP id <19990210220124.ZMLY1248.smtp2@ret000xh> for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:01:24 +0100 Message-ID: <001701be553c$3fa61400$d054513e@ret000xh> From: "Jose Antonio Hurtado Garcia" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Greenland Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:27:04 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0810.800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0810.800 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO endogamy. There is archeologycal probes.. José Antonio Hurtado García jahurtado@pagina.de http://pagina.de/jahurtado http://pagina.de/hurtado ----- Mensaje original ----- De: Bertil Häggman Para: Enviado: miércoles 10 de febrero de 1999 16:28 Jose Asunto: SV: [EXP] Greenland >triggered by the discussion about Leif and readings about the viking >travels to America, I searched for sources covering the fate of the norsk >colony on Greenland. It seems that the reasons for their decline and >destruction is not known and remains to be a secret. Does anyone happens to >know sources which could help to please my curiosity? Christian, One of the finest and most luxury descriptions of Norse Greenland, which I have in the second edition from 1982, is _Erik den roedes Groenland_ by Knud J. Krogh. Unfortunately for English readers and others it is bilingual in Danish and Greenlandic. I have extensive material from my participation on the Old Norse Net List. Will try to dig it up from my electronic archive. Some of the older Danish reports are of interest: Henrik M Jansen, A Critical account of the written and archaelogical sources' evidence concerning the Norse settlements in Greenland, Copenhagen 1972. W.Dansgaard et al., Climatic changes, Norsemen and modern man, Nature, 1975, pp. 24-28. Krogh writes that the mystery of the vanished settlements is still unsolved (but that was in 1982 and much more has been written on the fate of the Norse population). Theories abound because there is little source material: the Norse population was killed by the Inuit, English pirates struck and killed them, pestilence, degeneration, emigration to America, they mixed with the Inuit, contacts with Europe failed, climate worsened, starvation etc etc Krogh has a detailed chapter (Oedegaardar = deserted farms) on the subject. If there is interest I will try to come back with later bibliographic material from the 1990s. Best wishes Bertil Haggman Author Member, Swedish Authors Association E-mail: bertil.haggman@helsingborg.se From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 10 21:45:45 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA04956 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:45:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA01700. Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:44:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA01587 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:44:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us [146.115.194.10] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA00772 (ESMTP). Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:44:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from [146.115.194.135] by bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:47:42 -0400 X-Sender: reaston@bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <62e243db.36c1aed5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:47:32 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Robert W. Easton" Subject: Re: [EXP] Greenland Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO There is no mention of the Portugese reaching or raiding Greenland in anything I have read about North Atlantic exploration. And, there is specific information refuting the story of Greenlanders professing or abandoning Christianity to suit the moment, or the captor (Jones 1968). Robert W. Easton Bancroft School Worcester, Massachusetts USA A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. --N.N. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Feb 11 02:03:22 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id CAA06622 (ESMTP). Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:03:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id BAA00442. Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:57:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA00438 (ESMTP). Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:57:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from [209.178.63.9] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA26111 (ESMTP). Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:57:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from default (sdn-ar-002nynyorP326.dialsprint.net [168.191.122.104]) by raven.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA24838 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:57:25 -0800 (PST) From: "John Flint" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Greenland Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:59:26 -0500 Message-ID: <01be5559$c59e78a0$687abfa8@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO To add to the postings a few of my observations: The clinker built knorr or halfskip would probably have a life of under 50 years. The timber in Newfoundland is not suitable for ship construction. As for drift wood, I found it rare on the Greenland east coast and nearly non existent on the west coast. So rare that I photographed what few trunks I found. The lack of bog iron and hard wood for charcoal would also restrict ship repair or construction. As the trade between Europe and Greenland ceased, the Norse in Greenland would have become nearly landlocked. The little ice age reduced the growth of the dwarf willow and grass to the level that the cattle, goat and sheep stocks could not survive the winters. Sagas state that the cattle were so weakened that they were carried out of the buildings in the spring. The lack of contact with the inuit resulted in the Norse lack of skill in using the kyak for the harpooning of seal, walrus and narwhal. Outside factors mentioned by Carl Schuster, were the possible attacks by Bristol fishermen/pirates John Flint -----Original Message----- From: Christian Farwig To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 9:54 AM Subject: [EXP] Greenland >Hi, > >triggered by the discussion about Leif and readings about the viking >travels to America, I searched for sources covering the fate of the norsk >colony on Greenland. It seems that the reasons for their decline and >destruction is not known and remains to be a secret. Does anyone happens to >know sources which could help to please my curiosity? > >Thanks, > >Christian > > n n n n > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Feb 16 04:47:44 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA22651 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:47:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA24411. Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:44:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) id EAA24407 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:44:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from uhura.concentric.net [206.173.118.93] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) id EAA14398 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:44:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi [206.173.118.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.9.1a/(98/12/15 5.12)) id WAA09454; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:44:05 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3 (ts027d48.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.24.108]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id WAA00652; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:44:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19990215224613.008573d0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:46:13 -0500 To: MAPHIST@harvarda.harvard.edu, discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: [EXP] Re: Sun Ray Disk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Last year at this time Maphist had an animated discussion about a purported medieval Norse navigation instrument, a solar compass, and the discussion subsequently moved to Discovery list and then ONN. After a year's hiatus, the topic has become active again on ONN. By popular demand, I have collected together all relevant postings on that thread from all these lists. The thread may be viewed on Keith Pickering's site at http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/vdisk.htm I will be happy to relay copies of further discussion between these lists for anyone interested in participating. Jim. James Enterline Author, _Viking America_ New York City Horn, Chelsea Wind Quintet KV2Z@amsat.org Fellow, The Explorers Club From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 24 07:14:06 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA07467 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:14:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id HAA14202. Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:12:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA14198 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:12:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from coast.versyscom.com [207.230.239.12] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA07456 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:12:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from dccnet.com - 207.230.253.162 by versyscom.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:22:59 -0800 Message-ID: <36D327FC.46F71A04@dccnet.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:13:17 +0000 From: jwood Organization: Joseph Wood Construction X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Pickering Subject: [EXP] discovery Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hello: as simple as it sounds I am confused as to how I navigate in these waters. I am busily researching the world encompassing voyage of Sir Francis Drake 1577 -1579. Reading through the correspondence of your fellow members I feel that not only could we share some of our research but also find direction into the world of accurately reproduced historical maps. So the process begins to your member curious about women travellers in the 16th C. Francis Drake purloined the property of a Spanish nobel while in Central America , unfortunately the property turned out to be a women , a negro slave called Maria she was accompanied by two other Negroes who either joined the crew voluntarily or just historically showed up. These individuals were set ashore at some remote islands in the Pacific. Maria at the time was pregnant. The franklin group might be interested that at the head of navigation of the Fraser river in British Columbia is a natural geological formation called LADY FRANKLIN ROCK and named after the explorers wife who attempted to reach the Arctic by using the Fraser river. Rather like jumping out of a tree to get used to weightlessness. What is curious about this very pronounced island of rock above which dwells an area known as HELL'S GATE the first western explorer in 1808 Simon Fraser descended the river and stopping at the rock was shown (as stated in his diary) marks in the rock made by other people like him in the past . These other people were unique to the natives in that they had buttons and guns and while there were many of them they were all men ,no women accompanied them. thats what we can share what we need is a clear image of the upper left hand corner of a map byJodicus Hondius -1589 A HARBOUR OPENING TO THE SOUTHWEST PROTECTED FROM NORTHWESTERLY WINDS BY A SMALL PENNINSULA. The inset has within the harbour the legend PORTUS NOVAE ALBIONIS. excuse us if this is not the correct format to make this request . Any clarification would be warmly received Adventurously Ralph Heading From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 24 13:36:13 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA11180 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:36:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id NAA16462. Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:31:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA16458 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:31:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA26667 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:30:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from default (ip104.philadelphia7.pa.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.63.104]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA21020 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 04:30:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902241230.EAA21020@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: philaprint4062@philaprintshop.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:24:49 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: The Philadelphia Print Shop Subject: Re: [EXP] drake In-Reply-To: <36D2EE65.2E63D7A1@dccnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 06:07 PM 2/23/99 +0000, you wrote:

Hello:
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 as simple as it sounds I am confused as=A0 to how I navigate= in these waters.=A0 I am busily researching the world encompassing voyage of Sir Francis Drake 1577 -1579. Reading through the correspondence of your fellow members I feel that not only could we share some of our research but also find direction into the world of accurately reproduced historical maps. So the process begins to your member curious about women travellers in the 16th C. Francis Drake purloined the property of a Spanish nobel while in Central America , unfortunately the property turned out to be a women , a negro slave called Maria she was accompanied by two other Negroes who either joined the crew voluntarily or just historically showed up. These individuals were set ashore at some remote islands in the Pacific. Maria at the time was pregnant.
=A0=A0=A0 The franklin group might be interested that at the head of navigat= ion of the Fraser river in British Columbia is a natural geological formation called LADY FRANKLIN ROCK and named after the explorers wife who attempted to reach the Arctic by using the Fraser river. Rather like jumping out of a tree to get used to weightlessness. What is curious about this very pronounced island of rock above which dwells an area known as HELL'S GATE the first western explorer in 1808 Simon Fraser descended the river and stopping at the rock was shown (as stated in his diary) marks in the rock made by other people like him in the past . These other people were unique to the natives in that they had buttons and guns and while there were many of them they were all men ,no women accompanied them.
=A0 thats what we can share what we need is a clear image of the upper left hand corner of a map byJodicus Hondius -1589 A HARBOUR OPENING TO THE SOUTHWEST PROTECTED FROM NORTHWESTERLY WINDS BY A SMALL PENNINSULA. The inset has within the harbour the legend PORTUS NOVAE ALBIONIS.
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0

excuse us if this is not the correct format to make this request . Any clarification would be warmly received

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 Adventurously
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Ralph Heading



I am a bit confused by your note.  I gather you are looking for a picture of Hondius' map.  We do not have such, but if you contact a good library, such as the New York Public Library or the Library of Congress you might find what you need.

Sincerely, Chris Lane


Christopher W. Lane
The Philadelphia Print Shop
8441 Germantown Avenue
Philadelphia, PA 19118
(215) 242-4750
(215) 242-6977 [fax]
PhilaPrint@PhilaPrintShop.com
From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Feb 24 20:22:49 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA15832 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:22:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA18856. Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:20:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA18852 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:20:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from wya-lfd120.hotmail.com [207.82.252.184] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA27589 (SMTP). Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:20:20 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 28458 invoked by uid 0); 24 Feb 1999 19:19:48 -0000 Message-ID: <19990224191948.28457.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 12.13.226.11 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:19:48 PST X-Originating-IP: [12.13.226.11] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] drake Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:19:48 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO What's the question? What is it you seek clarification about? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Feb 25 04:11:17 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA27346 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:11:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA20558. Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:07:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA20554 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:07:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from coast.versyscom.com [207.230.239.12] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA27149 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:07:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from dccnet.com - 207.230.253.83 by versyscom.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:18:42 -0800 Message-ID: <36D44E46.B5E5F97A@dccnet.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:08:56 +0000 From: jwood Organization: Joseph Wood Construction X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] drake References: <19990224191948.28457.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Gregory: questions I am slow to phrase, but I would like a clear ;as close to original ;copy of the upper left hand insert of the Jodicus Hondius map showing the harbour titled PORTUS NOVAE ALBIONIS, and because of my naivety in this world of maps ,it would please me to correspond with enthusiasts who could explain subtle differences in different issues of this and other maps. Sincerely Ralph Heading From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Feb 25 14:21:57 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA09983 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:21:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id OAA22934. Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:16:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin10 [131.155.70.127] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA22930 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:16:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22] by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA28015 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:16:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from default (ip8.philadelphia7.pa.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.63.8]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA02278 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 05:16:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902251316.FAA02278@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: philaprint4062@philaprintshop.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:40:32 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: The Philadelphia Print Shop Subject: Re: [EXP] drake In-Reply-To: <36D44E46.B5E5F97A@dccnet.com> References: <19990224191948.28457.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 07:08 PM 2/24/99 +0000, you wrote: >Gregory: > questions I am slow to phrase, but I would like a clear ;as close to >original ;copy of the upper left hand insert of the Jodicus Hondius map >showing the harbour titled PORTUS NOVAE ALBIONIS, >and because of my naivety in this world of maps ,it would please me to >correspond with enthusiasts who could explain subtle differences in >different issues of this and other maps. > >Sincerely > >Ralph Heading > Dear Mr. Heading, As much as I would enjoy discussing this with you, 1) I do not really have time in the course of my business day and 2) we do not have any digitial images of this map with what you are looking for. I suggest you contact either the map department at the New York public library or the map division of the Library of Congress. Sincerely, Chris Lane Christopher W. Lane The Philadelphia Print Shop 8441 Germantown Avenue Philadelphia, PA 19118 (215) 242-4750 (215) 242-6977 [fax] PhilaPrint@PhilaPrintShop.com http://www.philaprintshop.com