From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Oct 4 23:51:22 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA25530 (ESMTP). Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:51:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id XAA15073. Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:45:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mta1-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.54.142] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA15020 (ESMTP). Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:44:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fineart.tm ([212.250.196.39]) by mta1-svc.virgin.net (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19991004214537.CTFJ22555.mta1-svc@fineart.tm>; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:45:37 +0100 Message-ID: <37F91871.9613FDFB@fineart.tm> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 22:13:21 +0100 From: Robert Walker Organization: FineArt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en-US,fr-FR,fr-CA,fr-CH,it,es-ES,da MIME-Version: 1.0 To: maplovers@fineart.tm Subject: [EXP] NEWS: Publication of HISTORICAL ATLAS OF THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hello everyone, This beautifully produced book is essential reading for everyone interested in the search for the Northwest Passage and how this last gap in the map of the world was revealed to mapmakers. The book includes 335 reproductions of original maps of this last gap in the map of the world, dating from 1569 to about 1900. The result is a beautiful new perspective on the history of the Pacific Northwest. $55.00 Canadian, including shipping and handling, within Canada. $35.00 US ($4 shipping, 1st book, $1 each 2+; Wash state res add 8.6% tax)25.00 pounds sterling, including shipping and handling, to Europe,(surface mail, add 5 pounds for air mail) For more details and how to order: http://www.cavendishbooks.ca/ RW -- R. Walker, Fine art & Business Resources. Everything you wanted to know about internet domain names 1,600,000 art auction records on CD-ROM for £211 or $338 + postage. MAPSANDPRINTSGB - An internet community for antiquarian and collectable map and print professionals. Addr: # 39, RH17 6BT UK Tel. & Fax.: ++44 (0)1444 401100 http://www.fineart.tm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Oct 6 03:53:46 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA07303 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 Oct 1999 03:53:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id DAA24997. Wed, 6 Oct 1999 03:48:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA24993 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 Oct 1999 03:48:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@calvino2.alaska.net [209.112.130.6] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA00423 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 Oct 1999 03:48:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [209.112.136.149] (107-pm5.jdc.alaska.net [209.112.137.107]) by alaska.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA27348; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:48:25 -0800 (AKDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37F91871.9613FDFB@fineart.tm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:55:23 -0800 To: discovery@win.tue.nl, maplovers@fineart.tm From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [EXP] unsubscribe Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA 235 Second Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 deelong@alaska.net 907/586-9676 fax 907/586-9606 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 7 16:43:13 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA05310 (ESMTP). Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:43:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA09188. Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:38:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mta3-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.54.144] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA09184 (ESMTP). Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:38:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fineart.tm ([194.168.69.121]) by mta3-svc.virgin.net (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19991007143314.CGMV12924.mta3-svc@fineart.tm>; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:33:14 +0100 Message-ID: <37FCAC85.44D9E97A@fineart.tm> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 15:21:57 +0100 From: Robert Walker Organization: FineArt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en-US,fr-FR,fr-CA,fr-CH,it,es-ES,da MIME-Version: 1.0 To: thenumerouslistsIamon@fineart.tm Subject: [EXP] (Re:) NEWS: Avoiding Spam X-Priority: 2 (High) References: <37D903C3.DDFD6CF0@fineart.tm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO (With apologies for any cross posting.) Ted Leonard wrote > BTW, another source spammers use for email addresses is listservs > such as this one. If your on a list whos commands include a "conceal > identity" option, by all means use it. Dear Ted, Thanks for all your help in this. I was naturally concerned by your last comment so subscribed to mapsandprintsgb under a different name to see if an outsider could join and easily pick up email addresses. All the archived messages (only available to members) have partly changed "from" addresses. Members have the option of hiding their addresses in the onelist member center but as all the addresses in the onelist mapsandprintsgb archives are false I must assume that this is the default setting. Email addresses in the body of an archived message are viewable but trawling for these would be a very time consuming and unreliable process. Only people with moderator privileges can see the list of members addresses. Moreover I have participated in many 'managed' internet "communities" (mailing/discussion lists) like this one and never noticed the increase in spam that occurred as soon as I joined a public news group. Since I complained to the Webmasters of the domains concerned I have had no more spam from these people. Also ONELIST have a very strong policy against Spam. Nevertheless it would always be a wise move to check on the privacy settings before joining any list. For those of you who are concerned about spam and/or want to avoid it, the complete thread of the discussion on Spam (from several discussion lists) is at: http://business.virgin.net/fine.art/nospam.htm Thanks to those who contributed. RW -- R. Walker, Fine art & Business Resources. Everything you wanted to know about internet domain names 1,600,000 art auction records on CD-ROM for £211 or $338 + postage. MAPSANDPRINTSGB - An internet community for antiquarian and collectable map and print professionals. Addr: # 39, RH17 6BT UK Tel. & Fax.: ++44 (0)1444 401100 http://www.fineart.tm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Oct 13 19:14:53 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA08303 (ESMTP). Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:14:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA00358. Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:07:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA00352 (ESMTP). Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:07:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery id TAA08809. Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:07:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199910131707.TAA08809@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Can you help me? (bounce) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:07:38 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Note to the list: This message was sent to the list, but refused because the poster was not subscribed. I have now subscribed him (I hope you do not mind, Daniel), and am reposting the message. Andre Engels, list owner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear sir, My name is Danny Shaylor. Four Years out of every Five I live on the banks of the Orinoco River in Venezuela. Back in 1966 or thereabouts some people from the BBC in London came to our area in Venezuela retracing the route of Alexander Von Humboldt. They made a film out of their trip. I think it was called "The last great Journey on Earth" or something like that. For years Ive wanted to get a copy of that film . Could you help find me who I could write to in order to get a copy. Even an e-mail address of the BBC might help. Thank you! Danny Shaylor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Oct 13 20:43:36 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA09925 (ESMTP). Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:43:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA00997. Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:39:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from daemon@web.webcoach.com [206.163.11.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA00993 (ESMTP). Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:39:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by web.webcoach.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA03542; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910131839.LAA03542@web.webcoach.com> To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: rh@investmentsuccess.com Subject: [EXP] new email Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The email address rh@investmentsuccess.com is no longer in operation. Please direct email for Robert Horowitz to rvhrvh@hotmail.com Thank you for your cooperation Robert Horowitz ----------- Your original message is below ---------- Note to the list: This message was sent to the list, but refused because the poster was not subscribed. I have now subscribed him (I hope you do not mind, Daniel), and am reposting the message. Andre Engels, list owner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear sir, My name is Danny Shaylor. Four Years out of every Five I live on the banks of the Orinoco River in Venezuela. Back in 1966 or thereabouts some people from the BBC in London came to our area in Venezuela retracing the route of Alexander Von Humboldt. They made a film out of their trip. I think it was called "The last great Journey on Earth" or something like that. For years Ive wanted to get a copy of that film . Could you help find me who I could write to in order to get a copy. Even an e-mail address of the BBC might help. Thank you! Danny Shaylor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Oct 15 14:29:23 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA08882 (ESMTP). Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:29:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id OAA17849. Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:19:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from thorium.uunet.be [194.7.15.88] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA17843 (ESMTP). Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:19:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pub00721 (pool056-194-7-42-66.uunet.be [194.7.42.66]) by thorium.uunet.be (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA04722 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:19:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000701bf1707$10585ea0$422a07c2@pub00721> From: "Johan Deckers" To: "discoverylist" Subject: [EXP] grave survivors of the Batavia found Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:14:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO In a Belgian newspaper I've read a small article about archeologists finding a grave on Beacon Island. It was the grave of survivors of the shipwreck of the Batavia on the W-Australian shore, who were victims of a mutiny. Originally the article came from "The West Australian" Can some one give me more information, not on the shipwreck, but on the finding of the grave? Johan Deckers From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Oct 18 21:23:04 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA09877 (ESMTP). Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:23:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA07592. Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:17:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA07588 (ESMTP). Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:17:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from plutonium.uunet.be [194.7.15.87] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA02367 (ESMTP). Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:17:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pub00721 (pool056-194-7-42-3.uunet.be [194.7.42.3]) by plutonium.uunet.be (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA29744 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:17:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000e01bf199c$f646f060$032a07c2@pub00721> From: "Deckers Johan" To: "discoverylist" Subject: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:14:04 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hi My name is Pieterjan Deckers I'm looking for an issue of the German magazine 'Deutsche Rundshau für Geographie und Statistik'. The title is 'Hatten die Alten Kunde Amerika?' and it was published in 1909. If anybody can give me the text of it, or point me to a website where I can find the text, you would help me a lot Also if you can give any infomation about the contents, mail it to Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be Thank you Pieterjan Deckers From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Oct 18 21:23:18 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA09883 (ESMTP). Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:23:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA07606. Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:20:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from plutonium.uunet.be [194.7.15.87] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA07602 (ESMTP). Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:20:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pub00721 (pool056-194-7-42-3.uunet.be [194.7.42.3]) by plutonium.uunet.be (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA00238 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:20:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001901bf199d$6ac330c0$032a07c2@pub00721> From: "Johan Deckers" To: "discoverylist" Subject: [EXP] william armit Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:17:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hey, I'm looking for more information about William Edington Armit who led an expedition from Australia to New-Guinea in 1883 with ao. the American scientist W. Denton. He died, being in public service in New-Guinea in1901 Thanks Johan Deckers From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Oct 19 09:15:51 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id JAA25018 (ESMTP). Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:15:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id JAA11386. Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:13:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from proxy2.ndsoft.com [199.203.68.6] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id JAA11382 (ESMTP). Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:13:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from tlv-exch-1.ndsoft.com (telaviv [172.16.4.101]) by proxy2.isr.bmc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14726 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:08:23 +0200 Posted-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:08:23 +0200 Received: by telaviv.isr.bmc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:15:35 +0200 Message-ID: <31860CC2E56DD2119B3A0008C74C5D8BA94EA4@telaviv.isr.bmc.com> From: "Izzy (Israel) Cohen" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:15:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > Pieterjan -- >=20 There is some (not widely believed) evidence that the=20 Phoenicians reached America. For example, see: Mark McMenamin mmcmenam@MtHolyoke.edu http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/csj/960216/mcmen.html My own work with anthropomorphic maps indicates that a methodology used by Blackfeet Indians in Alberta, Canada seems identical to that used (probably by Phoenicians)=20 in north Africa and Asia minor. However, this method of "mapmaking" is based on cognitive linguistic principles and could have been derived independently by various ancient peoples. Anthropomorphic Maps =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > On 27.08.98, the linguist Dan "Moonhawk" Alford posted the following=20 > item on the EvolutionLanguage list. It describes a "body part" map=20 > in North America:=20 >=20 > Blackfoot researcher Stan Knowlton shared a sacred geography project=20 > with members of the Bohmian Science Dialogue about five years ago.=20 >=20 > He had taken a map of Alberta and had the modern names removed,=20 > then went around to various areas and asked the elders what the old=20 > Blackfoot names used to be for various places. After collecting=20 > consistent names for specific places that attributed what we would=20 > call "anthropomophic" features to various parts of the landscape=20 > (including such body parts as foot, arm, belly, head, eyebrow, etc.=20 > for mountains, rivers, plains, etc.), out popped the figure of a man=20 > with feet to the south -- Napi the creator (who came up from the=20 > south and went east -- a teaching consistent with the migration by=20 > Algonquians after the Ice Age, up from Mexico and back east to the=20 > homeland in the northeast). ... Sacred geography -- what a concept!=20 >=20 > When he got back to one elder with the information for double-=20 > checking, we were told the following year, this elder brightened up=20 > and told Stan that if he'd gotten that far (in finding Napi), then if = he=20 > kept going further east to the north, he'd find a woman and a child=20 > as well, which marked ancient alliances. And sure enough, he did.=20 >=20 > All of this to say that we invaders have taken over Indian names=20 > here and there, but we have almost completely lost the rich=20 > SYSTEMS of placenames that once interweaved the landscape=20 > of this great continent.=20 >=20 > warm regards, moonhawk=20 > [Dan Moonhawk Alford > dalford@haywire.csuhayward.edu ] > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * end of quote=20 On 13.09.99 I received the following email from Robert MacLaury. > maclaury@sas.upenn.edu beginning of quote >> > My colleague Chris Sinha [Chris@psy.au.dk] just passed along=20 > to me your posting on body-part geography. Chris and I have=20 > independently worked with Zapotec body-part locatives, on which=20 > my article is referenced in my web-site CV. =20 >=20 > Zapotec body-part locatives: Prototypes and metaphoric extensions.=20 > International Journal of American Linguistics 55:119-54 (1989) >=20 > Ancient equation of geography with the body apparently=20 > was widespread. > Rob MacLaury > http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~maclaury/ end of quote << > * * * * * * * * * * * > Za-po-tec (zap'uh tek , z=E4'puh-) n. pl. <-tecs> (esp. = collectively)=20 > 1. a member of an American Indian people living primarily in=20 > central and E Oaxaca in Mexico. > 3. Also, of or designating a Mesoamerican=20 > civilization of the Oaxaca region of Mexico c 600 B.C. - A.D. = cl000. > * * * * * * * * * * * > Anthropomorphic Maps=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 >=20 > I have used the body-part map concept described above to find=20 > similar anthropomorphic maps elsewhere. This concept produces=20 > a "map without paper", enabling a language community to know=20 > approximately where various areas are located and what other=20 > areas will be crossed when traveling from "here" to "there".=20 > > Associating these body parts with the body of a god/goddess=20 > enables that language community to feel a connection with > the land because the land then belongs to *its* god/goddess.=20 In this case, the language community seems to be that of the Phoenicians or their linguistic predecessors. > The two most complete maps I have found seem to be a male body=20 > [Hermes ?] (from Russia to Yemen) and a female body [Aphrodite ?]=20 > (from Morocco to Somalia). Most of the names seem Phoenician=20 > in origin. The non-Phoenician names may be loan-translations.=20 The Hebrew roots in the charts below are offered as an approximation for Phoenician typonyms. > I suspect Hermes "moved" from Mt. Hermon (now on the=20 > Israeli-Syrian border near Lebanon) to Mt. Olympus.=20 >=20 > Needless to say, these maps are easier to visualize if you=20 > have an atlas or globe handy, preferably one showing ancient=20 > names for these areas.=20 >=20 > In the following charts, ? =3D aleph (with a GHT/CHS sound), X =3D = het, =20 > 3 =3D aiyin with a G/K sound, and SH =3D shin with a D/T dental = sound).=20 > The charts can be more easily read with a non-proportional Courier = font. >=20 > B o d y o f H e r m e s=20 > Area Root Translation=20 >=20 > Russia Ro?SH head ?? > Ukraine Gk KRaNion cranium (< Slavic u kriana =3D at = the > border ??) Chechnia Xa:KH palate (roof of mouth) Dagestan SHaKa:D tonsil (SHin =3D T) [Turkish dag = =3D mountain ?] =09 > Georgia GaRGeret throat, trachea=20 > Caspian (Sea) KaSeF shoulder=20 > Turkey SaRoo3/SHaLaX YaD outstretched arm (Sin =3D T)(< = Turkish > Turkmen ?) > Anatolia NiTLaH wash hands(in Black,Marmara,Med > seas);Gk=3Dsunrise > Antioch SHeXi armpit (SHin =3D T) [reversal = sounds > like (s)weat] > Armenia RaMaH hurl, cast, fling [Skt irm=E1 =3D = arm]=20 > Pontus Gk PoNTiKi (arm) muscle=20 > Cappadocia KaF-YaD palm of hand ??=20 > Phrygia Gk ph=E1lanx bone of finger (compare = Nostratic > penkwe)=20 > Bithynia BoHeN thumb=20 > Kurdistan Gk kard=EDa heart (compare Libya below)=20 > Luristan Gk l=F3rdosis > Heb LoRDoZaH =3D curvature of = the > spine=20 > Assyria Gk orrhos arse (reversed)=20 > Syria TZaR narrow (waist, compare Misr = below)=20 > Phoenicia Gk omphal=F3s navel (compare Nepal near = BhuTaN =3D > stomach)=20 > Lebanon Skt nabhila navel (reversed)=20 > Philis/Pales-tine Gk phall=F3s male anatomical member (see > Canaan/Israel)=20 > Iraq YeReKH hip=20 > Kuwait SHvK thigh (SHin =3D T)(reversed)=20 > Nafud (Arabia) DoFeN side (reversed)=20 > BaHRain BeReKH knee (compare Arabic irRoHK-bah)=20 > Arabia BeReKH knee (reversed)=20 > Yemen YaMiN right (foot)=20 >=20 > The Germani tribes described by the Roman historian Tacitus came from = the > northern area of the map of Hermes.=20 > Tacitus says: "Mercury is the deity whom they chiefly worship." = Mercury is > the Roman equivalent of Hermes.=20 >=20 > B o d y o f A p h r o d i t e=20 >=20 She is bent to the left (West) at her waist (Misr / Mitzraim) and=20 she is looking over her shoulder up into the Mediterranean. > Area Root Translation=20 >=20 > Pun PaNim face (lost during 3rd Punic war)=20 Pun is also the name of the Phoenician dialect that was spoken in = Carthage. > Fez (Morocco) PeS fez, tarboosh=20 On some early maps, this area is labeled "Fez & Morocco". > W. Sahara Sa3aRa hair=20 Her hair provides the typonym for the entire Sahara desert. > Morocco Gk kran=EDon head, skull (reversed) This typonym is reversed probably because Hermes' skull is at the = Ukraine (unreversed). > Tunisia SaNTir chin (reversed)=20 Her chin juts out into the Mediterranean exactly where you would expect = it to be. > Algeria aL + GaRon the + throat=20 > Algeria from aL GaRon =3D "the throat" is a bit of a stretch. :-) It = may be > a coincidence.=20 > Its modern shape is certainly not throat-like whereas the Hermes = throat at > Georgia is=20 > very throat-like. On the other hand, Phoenician mapmakers may have > considered only=20 > the coastal strip of present-day Algeria to be a throat.=20 >=20 > Libya LeB heart=20 > Chad SHaD mammary feature=20 > Misr/Mitzraim MoSNaim waist (mem-W parallel)=20 > Misr/Mitsraim is cognate with MoSNaim =3D waist. Hebrew nun is often = R in > other=20 > languages. I sometimes refer to the mem-W parallel as the = min-max/wane-wax >=20 > phenomena. (If you try to pronounce M but fail to close your mouth, = you > get a W.)=20 > So, MiTS could be a parallel of WaiST (with ts to st metathesis).=20 >=20 > Egypt KaBeD liver (old Gk HePaTikos,Russ = GePaTiT) > Yellow fever, a disease characterized by liver damage and jaundice, = is > transmitted by=20 > the Aedes aegypti mosquito. This mosquito is native to the African = rain > forest (not Egypt).=20 > This mosquito was called "aegypti" because it transmits a disease = which > attacks the liver.=20 >=20 > GoSHeN (shin =3D T) KiTNiot =3D beans > kidney (bean shape)=20 > Perhaps Ashkenazi Jews do not eat KiTNiot on Passover because they = escaped > from Goshen? >=20 Nubia Sk nabhila ? navel =20 > Sudan TZaD side, flank=20 > Djibouti XaBaSH,reverse of SHoFKHaH =3D urethra (het>French > Dj,shin=3DT)=20 > Eritrea LL < Gk our=E9thra urethra=20 But compare Greek erythr=F3s =3D red, reddish > Ethiopia has, historically, been the name of a far different area = than it > is today. At one time it=20 > stretched across all of south-central Africa including the West = coast. The > South Atlantic ocean=20 > was once known as the Ethiopian sea. Modern Ethiopia is called XaBaSH = in > Hebrew. There is=20 currently a border war between Eritrea and Ethiopia.=20 This "urethra" empties into the Red (vaginal) Sea. > Somalia S'MoL left (foot)=20 > Red Sea YaM SooF=3Dreed sea reverse of PoS = peh-sof=3Dvagina,female > pudenda=20 I propose that Yam SooF is a euphemistic reversal of Yam PoS (peh-sof), = the vaginal sea.=20 Menstruation explains why it is also known as the Red Sea (Latin Mare = Rubio on early maps). Incidentally, it was often colored red on early maps, including = Portolan charts. > Sinai K'NiSa entrance (reverse =3D 'snatch', = pudenda) Note the missing aleph with a GHT/CHS sound. Compare bet-aleph =3D = come, come in with Gk Bacchus, the Greek god of fertility. Bet-aleph / Bacchus is probably the origin = for the English term "box" as slang=20 for the vulva or vagina. I suspect "tw_t" is related to Semitic TaVaH = =3D (non-body) box, and was used as a=20 euphemism for this body part until it also became a taboo word. > =20 > Canaan K:Na3aN < 3oNeG delight, pleasure, enjoyment > (reversed)=20 > (compare L cunnus=3Dvulva; L canna < Gk k=E1nna ~ Akkad qanu, Heb > qaneh=3Dreed) In this case, the body part that provides physical pleasure is related = to word(s) for pleasure. Compare Gk phallus, Latin placere =3D to please, Eng pleasure.=20 > Some comments on this topic have been collected on a "Talking Stick" = page > of the=20 > American Indian COUNCILFIRE web site: > http://www.councilfire.com/israel.htm=20 >=20 > Israel Cohen > izzy@telaviv.ndsoft.com > ---------- > From: Deckers Johan[SMTP:Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be] > Reply To: discovery@win.tue.nl > Sent: Monday, 18 Oct 1999 21:14 > To: discoverylist > Subject: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America >=20 > Hi >=20 > My name is Pieterjan Deckers > I'm looking for an issue of the German magazine 'Deutsche Rundshau = f=FCr > Geographie und Statistik'. > The title is 'Hatten die Alten Kunde Amerika?' and it was published = in > 1909. > If anybody can give me the text of it, or point me to a website where = I > can > find the text, you would help me a lot > Also if you can give any infomation about the contents, mail it to > Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be >=20 > Thank you > Pieterjan Deckers >=20 >=20 >=20 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Oct 19 20:04:48 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA15909 (ESMTP). Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:04:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA16946. Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:01:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.39] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA16942 (ESMTP). Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:01:42 +0200 (MET DST) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id lRQUA4XbX_ (4381) for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.c566c2f5.253e0be6@aol.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:01:10 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Could this have anything to do with the fact that the north coast of North America appears on maps years before anyone that we know of got there? Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Oct 19 21:07:35 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA17125 (ESMTP). Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:07:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA17446. Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:05:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mta3-gui.server.ntli.net [194.168.54.144] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA17442 (ESMTP). Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:05:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fineart.tm ([194.168.120.109]) by mta3-svc.virgin.net (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19991019190022.CTTM7766.mta3-svc@fineart.tm>; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:00:22 +0100 Message-ID: <380CBF52.4F9D9603@fineart.tm> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 19:58:29 +0100 From: Robert Walker Organization: FineArt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en-US,fr-FR,fr-CA,fr-CH,it,es-ES,da MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Book_print_and_map_lovers@fineart.tm Subject: [EXP] NEWS: London Book, Print & Map Fair Season 2000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hi, The (almost) complete schedule of the huge June London Book, Print & Map Fair Season 2000 can be viewed and saved/printed from: http://freespace.virgin.net/fine.art/junefair.htm The link at the bottom of the timetable takes you to http://freespace.virgin.net/fine.art/junecontacts.htm where you can find the venues, contact details and links to the organizers. There is a map to show the relative distances between the fairs at: http://freespace.virgin.net/fine.art/junemap.htm The auctions will be added in January 2000 (I will let you know). Please pass on to any colleagues you want to who are not on your mailing list. Thanks. Any problems viewing, please let me know. With best regards Robert -- R. Walker, Fine art & Business Resources. Everything you wanted to know about internet domain names 1,600,000 art auction records on CD-ROM for £211 or $338 + postage. MAPSANDPRINTSGB - An internet community for antiquarian and collectable map and print professionals. Addr: # 39, RH17 6BT UK Tel. & Fax.: ++44 (0)1444 401100 http://www.fineart.tm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Oct 20 05:34:05 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA28791 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Oct 1999 05:34:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id FAA19908. Wed, 20 Oct 1999 05:29:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [216.177.129.2] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA19903 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Oct 1999 05:29:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default (pm2-2-18.dynamic.minn.net [216.177.137.81]) by mail.minn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA22557 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:29:28 -0500 Message-ID: <00e501bf1aab$70dface0$5189b1d8@default> From: "Keith Pickering" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:30:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO What maps? Keith Pickering -----Original Message----- From: ExJournal@aol.com To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America >Could this have anything to do with the fact that the north coast of North >America appears on maps years before anyone that we know of got there? Carl >Schuster > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Oct 20 10:10:59 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA04026 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:10:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id KAA21374. Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:07:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA21370 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:07:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id KAA07058. Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:07:10 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199910200807.KAA07058@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America In-Reply-To: <0.c566c2f5.253e0be6@aol.com> from "ExJournal@aol.com" at "Oct 19, 1999 2: 1:10 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:07:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ExJournal@aol.com wrote: > Could this have anything to do with the fact that the north coast of North > America appears on maps years before anyone that we know of got there? Carl I know of no such maps. Which ones do you mean? -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Oct 20 18:46:24 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA20230 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:46:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA25282. Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:39:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA25274 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:39:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id lBQQa04501 (3705) for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.810b64f8.253f4a07@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:38:31 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Look at Ruysch - 1507, Fine-1517-34, Munster -1540 on, Plancius inter alia. Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Oct 20 19:08:27 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA20659 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:08:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA25445. Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:05:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA25441 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:04:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id TAA00466. Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:04:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199910201704.TAA00466@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America In-Reply-To: <0.810b64f8.253f4a07@aol.com> from "ExJournal@aol.com" at "Oct 20, 1999 12:38:31 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:04:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ExJournal@aol.com wrote: > Look at Ruysch - 1507, Fine-1517-34, Munster -1540 on, Plancius inter alia. > Carl Schuster The only remarkable feature of Ruysch's map would be the land shown west of Cuba. However, this is much more likely to be the result of an unknown voyage somewhere around 1500 (discovering either Florida or Yucatan) than of pre-Columbian discovery. The more northern parts are not in conflict with what we know of discovery and exploration of Newfoundland to that date. I could not find the Fine map, but given its dates its maker need not have done more than assume that Florida and Newfoundland were connected by a continuous coastline to get something resembling a correct American east coast. Munster's map does not contain any information, as far as I can see, that is in conflict with what is known about the knowledge of American geography at the time - or rather, where it is in conflict, it is a greater inaccuracy because of the crudeness of the drawing, rather than a greater accuracy. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Oct 20 21:48:21 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA23651 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:48:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA26545. Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:45:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA26541 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:45:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id lKOA0B3VOa (4241) for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.f3a6249b.253f75aa@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:44:42 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr In a message dated 20/10/1999 1:15:01 PM, engels@win.tue.nl writes: << Munster's map does not contain any information, as far as I can see, that is in conflict with what is known about the knowledge of American geography at the time - or rather, where it is in conflict, it is a greater inaccuracy because of the crudeness of the drawing, rather than a greater accuracy. The location of The Northwest Passage, the viability of it as a route to the recently discovered Moluccas (1515), and a schematic outline of Hudson Bay by Munster of course don't count? His illustrations are woodblock, and schematic, not "crude". The issue is how accurate, on a world scale, is the data presented. The shape changes between what these cartographers present and the present geographic shapes is the result of geophysical change, not cartographic incompetence. Check the Historical Atlas of Canada, Volume I, page 6 (?) for illustrations of these changes. Check also the biography and bibliography of Munster before you comment further. Although we know him as a cartographer, he was principally an epigrapher, an orientalist, an expert in ancient semitic languages, Hebrew, Chaldean, Aramaic, as well as Greek, German and Latin. Fine dates to 1517, and shows every major river flowing into Hudson Bay. Ruysch shows what we know today as Hudson Bay, labeled as Mare Sugenum in 1507. Plancius shows the Northwest Passage, Hudson Bay and the Mackenzie River in 1594. Hudson was the first known European to have visited the region, and contrary to commonly held belief, he was not looking for the Northjwest Passage. He already knew where it was, through Plancius with whom Hudson visited in 1609. Cabot is speculation, and any surviving documents would have been state, or at least city secrets. None of this hypothetical material has yet surfaced. Regards, Carl Schuster >> From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Oct 20 22:11:14 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA24021 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:11:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id WAA26662. Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:09:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA26657 (ESMTP). Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:09:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id WAA00694. Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:09:16 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199910202009.WAA00694@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America In-Reply-To: <0.f3a6249b.253f75aa@aol.com> from "ExJournal@aol.com" at "Oct 20, 1999 3:44:42 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:09:16 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ExJournal@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 20/10/1999 1:15:01 PM, engels@win.tue.nl writes: > > << Munster's map does not contain any information, as far as I can see, that > is > in conflict with what is known about the knowledge of American geography at > the time - or rather, where it is in conflict, it is a greater inaccuracy > because of the crudeness of the drawing, rather than a greater accuracy. > > The location of The Northwest Passage, the viability of it as a route to the > recently discovered Moluccas (1515), and a schematic outline of Hudson Bay > by Munster of course don't count? The location of The Northwest Passage? It is placed 'around the north coast of America'. Where else could it be placed?! Viability as a route to the Moluccas: The Northwest Passage is not viable as a route to the Moluccas - at least not in the 16th century. Schematic outline of the Hudson Bay: This is NOT the Hudson Bay. This is the 'Sea of Verrazzano'. Verrazzano, when sailing along the coast of Carolina, thought that Pamlico Sound was actually the Pacific, thus making North America at the place an extremely narrow isthmus. This misconception caused maps following his voyage to show such a deep intrusion from the Pacific or the Arctic through North America. See also http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/verrazzano.html > His illustrations are woodblock, and > schematic, not "crude". The issue is how accurate, on a world scale, is the > data presented. The shape changes between what these cartographers present > and the present geographic shapes is the result of geophysical change, not > cartographic incompetence. Geophysical changes? Over a time range of less than 500 years? That's ridiculous. > Fine dates to 1517, and shows every major river flowing into Hudson Bay. No comment, not having the map. > Ruysch shows what we know today as Hudson Bay, labeled as Mare Sugenum in > 1507. Look how the north is formed by him. Although this sea is close to the east coast of America, it is also close to the mouth of the Ob. Old Greek sources seem more likely than a discovery of the Hudson Bay. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 21 02:05:41 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id CAA01173 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 Oct 1999 02:05:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id CAA28172. Thu, 21 Oct 1999 02:03:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id CAA28168 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 Oct 1999 02:03:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id CAA03580 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 Oct 1999 02:03:10 +0200 (MET DST) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id lGUWa09316 (4244) for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.be455728.253fb1b5@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 20:00:53 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO In a message dated 20/10/1999 4:18:27 PM, engels@win.tue.nl writes: << Geophysical changes? Over a time range of less than 500 years? That's ridiculous. >> Precisely the point - we're not talking about 500 years. The previous "warm spell" fits with most of the potential dates. I again refer you to National Atlas of Canada, Vol.I. From the changing shorelines offered therein, all post glacial, pick the one that most closely resembles the renaissance plots for what we know now as Hudson Bay. Note the date. This is an approximate date for the original plots, long since lost, from whom all these renaissance cartographers got their material. Given Munsters capabilities, the material may still exist in text form. We just don't known what to look for. The problems of many of these early maps can be seen in the obvious joining of disparate material, of varying scales. Sea of Verazano is probably more related to California as an Island. Look at DeChamplain 1612/13 for this. Munster is an example of this. Ruysch's "sucking sea" is probably related to the Aristotelian idea of the inflowing polar sea, from which all rivers draw their outflows. Too bad Ruysch moves the caption south, while retaining the open polar area surrounded by the requisite islands. Is there anything that might lead an observer to identify anything in Hudson Bay as "The Sucking Sea"? Read the Pilot Book for Labrador and Hudson Bay (Canada Mines and Fisheries) There is something now called The Hazzard, on the East Coast of Hudson Bay. It is a narrow, deep and treacherous passage, through which the tides flow very much as the Skagarrak (sp?). The mariner is advised not to venture in there without significant power, and then never against the current. Tide runs in excess of 12 knots. You blythly toss off that the Northwest Passage must "of course" run across the top of America. Not necessarily, Davis was advocating a mid-latitude passage; but how do these cartographers know the geographic detail? They know enough about it to make it impossible to be a "statistical coincidence", that they all guessed the same thing, and that thing turned out to be correct. They all know where the Nelson, Albany, Moose and Nottaway River Systems are, but none of them know The Hazzard. Champlain, who was never there, accurately illustrates all rivers arising above 500 feet above present sea levels, between Cape Wolstenholme and Cape Henrietta Maria. How does Plancius know there is a fortified seaport on the shoulder of the Hudson Bay Lowlands? Whose port was it? When did it exist? Plancius is much too good to be guilty of putting in fanciful materials. His sources may have been wrong, but he would have had proper documentation, even if it were in error. They most certainly weren't invented. Sir, there are sources that the Renaissance Cartographers had access to of which we know nothing. I am not about to guess where they came from, or if and where they may presently reside. I simply observe that what the Renaissance cartographers knew is not in synchrony with the state of European exploration at the same moment. What is presented during the Renaissance is reasonably accurate, given the botched matching, slicing and dicing of sources, without knowledge of or reference to relative scales. It also is in congruity with the geophysical history of the area and the climatic history. I find it personally distressing that it would appear to be much easier to condemn the work of early cartographers, than to try to understand what it is they are telling us. Each little new piece of this marvelous puzzle should be examined critically, but if the data passes muster, perhaps it should be integrated into the larger body of knowledge, and the old story revisited, to see if it still works in light of the new information. What portion of what I have presented seems out of order, and why? Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 21 13:32:12 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA16252 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:32:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id NAA01347. Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:30:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [212.59.199.83] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA01343 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:30:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from anayarrakis ([195.5.72.96]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FJYALB05.J0P for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:29:35 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01bf1bb7$30a75120$604805c3@anayarrakis> From: "J. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:25:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr => there is a map , I believe it is made about 1480, perhaps by Claudius Clavus (danish) of the north of Europe. And in the east of Iceland it appears a big block of land with 3 names: Groënlandia, Terra Bacallaos in the south of this land, and Ultra Tile in the West... America? (the map is a.. Xilographia ? Is a printed map...? J. Anaya anay@arrakis.es ----- original----- from:: Keith Pickering Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America |What maps? | |Keith Pickering |>Could this have anything to do with the fact that the north coast of North |>America appears on maps years before anyone that we know of got there? Carl |>Schuster |> | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 21 15:16:28 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA19814 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:16:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA02430. Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:15:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA02426 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:14:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id PAA01686. Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:14:57 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199910211314.PAA01686@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America In-Reply-To: <000a01bf1bb7$30a75120$604805c3@anayarrakis> from "J. anaya" at "Oct 21, 1999 1:25:54 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:14:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O J. anaya wrote: > => there is a map , I believe it is made about 1480, perhaps > by Claudius Clavus (danish) of the north of Europe. And in the > east of Iceland it appears a big block of land with 3 names: > Groënlandia, Terra Bacallaos in the south of this land, and > Ultra Tile in the West... America? >From a web search, it seems that the maps of Claudius Clavus have all been lost; however, he has influenced a number of later map makers, bringing Greenland on the maps for example. His original maps are from ca. 1427, so your 1480 map might be a map using Clavus as one of his sources (no doubt Ptolemeus would also be involved somewhere...) What I find interesting about your statement is the mentioning of 'Baccalaos'. Baccalaos is a name that is sometimes used in the sixteenth century for Newfoundland. It comes from the word 'bacalhao' (Spanish) or 'baccala' (Portuguese) for codfish. IF this map would indeed, as you claim, be from around 1480, it would be the strongest evidence to date that (Basque or Portuguese) fishermen fished the banks of Newfoundland and discovered Newfoundland BEFORE the voyages of Cabot. The most likely explanation is however that you mis-remembered the date and the map is actually from shortly after 1500. 'Ultra Tile' is not as easily explained, it does not remind me of any name I have stumbled upon before - except the 'Ultima Thule' that was used by Pytheas for the land he visited in the north (I go with those who say it is Norway, but others think it is Iceland or the Shetlands), and by the Romans regarded the furthest land in the Atlantic (or at least the furthest known land). How such a name would be used for America is however very unclear - in those days it was generally regarded as a synonym for Iceland. By the way, you said that it was in the _west_ on the land on your map. Could you specify the supposed geography a bit more - did Ultra Tile have an east coast? Do you have any information that might make it possible to identify this map? -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Oct 21 19:47:45 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA27689 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:47:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA04382. Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:41:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA04375 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:41:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA13493 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:41:48 +0200 (MET DST) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id lSFNa11406 (4395) for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.4584fc12.2540aa33@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:41:07 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Ruysch (1507)applies the appelation Is.deBacalao, o Cabo de Portugues to what is unmistakably Cape Cod, Massachusetts. An Island just to the west of this area is known as PASQUE Island, although the ethnographic set claims origins in Algonkonian. Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Oct 22 15:02:52 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA22183 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:02:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA10573. Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:00:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA10569 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:00:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id PAA02789. Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:00:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199910221300.PAA02789@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America In-Reply-To: <0.4584fc12.2540aa33@aol.com> from "ExJournal@aol.com" at "Oct 21, 1999 1:41: 7 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:00:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ExJournal@aol.com wrote: > Ruysch (1507)applies the appelation Is.deBacalao, o Cabo de Portugues to what > is unmistakably Cape Cod, Massachusetts. An Island just to the west of this > area is known as PASQUE Island, although the ethnographic set claims origins > in Algonkonian. Carl Schuster I would remove the 'unmistakably' here. The way I interpret the map, it shows the east and south coast of Newfoundland. I do not have a copy that is clear enough to be certain, but what I think you interpret as Cape Cod, I think is Avalon Peninsula, with the bay north of it being Trinity Bay. Pasque Island would then be St. Pierre and Miquelon, and the island further west Cape Breton. Now, I am not saying my interpretation is correct and yours is wrong, but I am saying that your interpretation is not the only reasonable one, and thus not 'unmistakably' correct. Pasque I. almost certainly would mean that it was discovered on (or around) Easter - if I remember correctly Easter is Pacula in Portuguese, and has similar names in other languages. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Oct 22 15:15:42 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA22595 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:15:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA10744. Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:13:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f69.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.69] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA10738 (SMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:13:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 43162 invoked by uid 0); 22 Oct 1999 13:13:09 -0000 Message-ID: <19991022131309.43161.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.179.204.25 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 06:13:08 PDT X-Originating-IP: [209.179.204.25] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 06:13:08 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > > Ruysch (1507)applies the appelation Is.deBacalao, o Cabo de Portugues to >what > > is unmistakably Cape Cod, Massachusetts. An Island just to the west of >this > > area is known as PASQUE Island, although the ethnographic set claims >origins > > in Algonkonian. Carl Schuster There is no island named Pasque near Terra Nova (Newfoundland) on the three known states of the left-hand plate of the Ruysch map. Does Has Carl viewed a previously unknown state of the left-hand plate? Greg McIntosh ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Oct 22 15:30:58 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA23232 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:30:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA10952. Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:28:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA10947 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:28:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id PAA02905. Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:28:34 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199910221328.PAA02905@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America In-Reply-To: <0.be455728.253fb1b5@aol.com> from "ExJournal@aol.com" at "Oct 20, 1999 8: 0:53 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:28:34 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ExJournal@aol.com wrote: > Sea of Verazano is probably more related to California as an Island. I don't see any connection between these two. > Sir, there are sources that the Renaissance Cartographers had access to of > which we know nothing. I am not about to guess where they came from, or if > and where they may presently reside. I simply observe that what the > Renaissance cartographers knew is not in synchrony with the state of European > exploration at the same moment. What is presented during the Renaissance is > reasonably accurate, given the botched matching, slicing and dicing of > sources, without knowledge of or reference to relative scales. It also is in > congruity with the geophysical history of the area and the climatic history. > I find it personally distressing that it would appear to be much easier to > condemn the work of early cartographers, than to try to understand what it is > they are telling us. Each little new piece of this marvelous puzzle should be > examined critically, but if the data passes muster, perhaps it should be > integrated into the larger body of knowledge, and the old story revisited, to > see if it still works in light of the new information. What portion of what I > have presented seems out of order, and why? Carl Schuster The problem with your presentation is the large discrepancy between what you claim and the evidence you give for that. Only because many 16th century cartographers show some bay in the north of North America, you conclude that there was some unknown ancient civilization and that somehow the information got to those cartographers. To me, that flies in the face of Occam's razor - if we have to resort to concluding a complete civilization from some maps that are many centuries later, I prefer to look for other solutions. Like there are accident/good guessing, unknown voyages during the 16th century itself, legends with little ground in the truth, knowledge heared from local inhabitants by explorers (for example, one alternative explanation of a bay in the north of North America would be that Cartier had heared rumours of Hudson Bay from the local Indians, or the Spanish had heared rumours of the Great Lakes). -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Oct 22 19:49:36 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA00025 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:49:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA12781. Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:43:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA12777 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:43:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from plutonium.uunet.be [194.7.15.87] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA26924 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:43:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pub00721 (pool056-194-7-42-81.uunet.be [194.7.42.81]) by plutonium.uunet.be (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA04352 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:43:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000201bf1cb4$7076fb40$512a07c2@pub00721> From: "Johan Deckers" To: "discoverylist" Subject: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America? Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:22:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hi there, In a book of Richard Hennig, "Raadselachtige landen", I read that, shortly before the First World War, there was found an evidence of contacts between the Mediterranean and America. They found a coin in Hancock, Lenew, in the state Illinois, USA, on the terrain of the publisher Grey. The expert Emerson of the Institute of Beautiful Arts said it was a Greek or a Roman coin. Because of the war, this never became known in Europe. If anybody has any more information about this case, please share it with me Pieterjan Deckers Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be PS You should read the book of Hennig, it's really interesting. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Oct 22 23:25:08 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA03652 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:25:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id XAA13658. Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:21:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA13654 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:21:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA29131 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:21:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id lPMSa14299 (4396) for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.8b856462.25422f08@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:20:08 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Andre - Two points. Avalon does not have the same shape as Cape Cod. Get a good clear copy of Ruysch and check it out with a magnifying glass. There are some surprises there. One is that there is shown an island inside the "arm" of the Cape. If one looks at a bathymetric of Massachusetts Bay, there is a sea rise squarely in the middle, rising from average depths of 160 feet to 60 feet. Dover publications has a paperbound Ptolemy Geography with a fair rendition of Ruysch 1507. Easter is at least a more rational interpretation than that of the ethnographers, but I would cast my lot with the bilabial "Pasque"="Basque"="Vasque". One can find all three spellings on maps in this century. Pace, Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Oct 22 23:28:36 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA03701 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:28:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id XAA13683. Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:26:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA13679 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:26:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA29165 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:26:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id lMASa12223 (4396) for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:25:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.6761763b.25423036@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:25:10 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Greg - In my usual ecclectic pattern, the reference to Pasque Island is drawn not from Ruysch, but from modern sea charts. I refer to it because it is part of the Elizabeth Island chain just out of Wood's Hole, Massachusetts, just west of Cape Cod. It is too small to be included at the Ruysch scale, but what we call Naragansett Bay is there, in Ruysch. Pace, Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Oct 22 23:52:49 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA04081 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:52:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id XAA13929. Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:48:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA13925 (ESMTP). Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:48:50 +0200 (MET DST) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id lHFZa04501 (4396) for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.376a7306.25423599@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:48:09 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I take strenuous exception to your comments. I make no mention of any "unknown" civilizations. I observe that accurate representations of subtle geophysical changes appear in a non synchronous fashion in these early maps when compared to present day material. If the only way you can understand this is to posit little green men, be my guest. Just don't suggest that I share that notion, or in any way support it. There is a huge difference between "unknown civilizations" and documents whose origins are unknown. But then I suspect that you adhere to the notion that there were no geographical materials written or drawn, between Ptolemy and the Calvinist geographers in the 16th century, and that they had to begin with tabla rasa. If it helps you to use space men and secret civilizations to understand the transmission of knowledge through time, so be it. Don't blame me for it though. I suggest that you employ Ocham's Razor to some of the tortured explications of how these early maps look the way they do. The ancients didn't know any better, they didn't know the size of the earth, they were crummy observers. Read any of the hilarious explications of Gerritsz and deChamplain, and you will either laugh or cry. Marry the geophysical to the 17th century cartography and it is completely lucid. These people had earlier sources, and by judicious examination, it is possible to see where the sources were pasted together. What these sources were, I know not, but I can at least derive a duplicate of the previous generation for you in many cases- or do you subscribe to the notion that all cartographic data began with the Pisan Chart? Pace, Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Oct 23 00:06:46 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA04310 (ESMTP). Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:06:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA14110. Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:02:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA14105 (ESMTP). Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:02:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA29677 (ESMTP). Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:02:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id lWHa022485 (4396) for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:01:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.53486daa.2542389c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:01:00 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO In a message dated 22/10/1999 9:36:49 AM, engels@win.tue.nl writes: << I prefer to look for other solutions. Like there are accident/good guessing, unknown voyages during the 16th century itself, legends with little ground in the truth, knowledge heared from local inhabitants by explorers (for example, one alternative explanation of a bay in the north of North America would be that Cartier had heared rumours of Hudson Bay from the local Indians, or the Spanish had heared rumours of t= he Great Lakes). >> Deconstruct the DeChamplain Nouvelle Francia series 1612-1677. DeChamplain=20 spent years in Canada, but never went to the Great Bay. His maps however,=20 illustrate a shoreline that was extant when the relative sea level was 500=20 feet higher than it is now. EVERY river or headland, that lies upon the=20 present 500 foot contour is illustrated, as a coastal feature, with a=20 latitudinal accuracy of < 1=B0. The change in the RSL since the breakup of t= he=20 last glacier is ~ 1000 feet. That means that Andre's Little Green Men have=20 to have come calling in the last several thousand years. But of course Andre= =20 will only entertain post sixteenth century investigations, since it is=20 obvious that there were none conducted earlier. Of course we have complete=20 and comprehensive shipping records of all European civilizations, or any=20 others, since the post glacial period and we can categorically state that=20 there were none. Give it up. Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Oct 23 00:20:33 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA04793 (ESMTP). Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:20:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA14454. Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:16:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA14448 (ESMTP). Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:16:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA29985 (ESMTP). Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:16:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id lTRRYBLMl_ (4396) for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.3066ee35.25423c01@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:15:29 EDT Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America? To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Have a little exposure to these arguments. If contact was made, in any sort of a meaningful way, there will be fingerprints, or footprints more unequivocal than anything that could appear as trade goods. The history of copper mining in North America has lots of curious twists and turns, but no one has so far been able to weave whole cloth from this yet. The maps about which people have such ardently held positions reflect some data that is clearly out of temporal context with the dates at which they first appear in our cannon. The stuff that got fobbed off as truth, "Henry Hudson was looking for the NORTHWEST PASSAGE" is laughable, but the alleged scholars who employ ever more twisted logic to deny the possibility of anything other than the cannon will continue the same line as they have for 400 years. It is a totally disingenuous argument, because how can they be proven wrong? It is not possible to scientifically disprove a negative. Take a look at the August September Canadian National Historical Society's magazine, The Beaver, there is an interesting article on the subject. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Oct 23 05:45:23 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA09343 (ESMTP). Sat, 23 Oct 1999 05:45:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id FAA15683. Sat, 23 Oct 1999 05:40:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f20.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.20] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA15679 (SMTP). Sat, 23 Oct 1999 05:40:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 57266 invoked by uid 0); 23 Oct 1999 03:39:35 -0000 Message-ID: <19991023033935.57265.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.254.88.76 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:39:34 PDT X-Originating-IP: [209.254.88.76] From: "michael zalar" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:39:34 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >Like >there are accident/good guessing, unknown voyages during the 16th century >itself, legends with little ground in the truth, knowledge heared from >local inhabitants by explorers (for example, one alternative explanation of >a bay in the north of North America would be that Cartier had heared >rumours >of Hudson Bay from the local Indians, or the Spanish had heared rumours of >the >Great Lakes). > > In addition to Hudson Bay, I also note that a fair number of 16th centruy maps include an island to the west of Greenland of the proper size/shape/location to be Baffin Island. While Indian legends might account for the idea of a bay in the north of Canada, they would not explain the cartographic exsistance of this island. Obviously the east coast of Baffin Is. could have been known, but to properly descibe the west coast, or even the have the understanding of the land mass as an island, would require either fanciful guesswork, or a first hand description. Also, gores from the Vopell globe of 1536 correctly show the western half of this northern bay to be free of islands, while the eastern half has numerous islands as correctly describes Hudson Bay. The rivers also seem to be correctly placed, including the distincly larger opening of the Chesterfield inlet. Again this may be guesswork, but it is interesting. I have just made a copy of a 19th century book regarding Henry Hudson and a route to Greenland described by Ivar Bardson, a 14 century priest of that island. I have not had a chance to read through this material yet, but apparently Hudson had access to Bardson's manuscript and may have used it as a navigational tool. >Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 Michael A. Zalar 179 E. Thompson Ave #1 West St. Paul, MN 55118 651-457-8860 m_zalar@hotmail.com www.krs1362.cjb.net ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Oct 24 07:54:37 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA01676 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:54:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id HAA19206. Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:50:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA19202 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:50:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from proxy2.ndsoft.com [199.203.68.6] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA12962 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:50:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from tlv-exch-1.ndsoft.com (telaviv [172.16.4.101]) by proxy2.isr.bmc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21705; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:45:27 +0200 Posted-Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:45:27 +0200 Received: by telaviv.isr.bmc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:52:30 +0200 Message-ID: <31860CC2E56DD2119B3A0008C74C5D8BAC6F79@telaviv.isr.bmc.com> From: "Izzy (Israel) Cohen" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Cc: Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be, mmcmenam@mtholyoke.edu Subject: [EXP] RE: Did the ancients know about America? Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:52:29 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > Pieterjan Deckers Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be wrote: > If anybody has any more information about this [coin], > please share it with me Gentlemen: See: > http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/csj/960216/mcmen.html by Mark McMenamin > mmcmenam@MtHolyoke.edu ciao, Israel Cohen izzy@telaviv.ndsoft.com > ---------- > From: Johan Deckers[SMTP:Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be] > Reply To: discovery@win.tue.nl > Sent: Friday, 22 Oct 1999 19:22 > To: discoverylist > Subject: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America? > > In a book of Richard Hennig, "Raadselachtige landen", I read that, shortly > before the First World War, there was found an evidence of contacts > between > the Mediterranean and America. > They found a coin in Hancock, Lenew, in the state Illinois, USA, on the > terrain of the publisher Grey. The expert Emerson of the Institute of > Beautiful Arts said it was a Greek or a Roman coin. > Because of the war, this never became known in Europe. ...Pieterjan Deckers Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Oct 24 16:00:51 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA07733 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:00:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA20518. Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:58:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA20511 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:58:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [212.59.199.83] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA15530 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:58:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from anayarrakis ([195.5.78.101]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FK41GX05.S1X; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:58:09 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01bf1e27$71d97de0$654e05c3@anayarrakis> From: "J. anaya" To: Cc: , Subject: RE: [EXP] RE: Did the ancients know about America? Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:55:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO It is very possible that the first to cross the atlantic ocean was not the people of the old World, but the americans. Two times "indians" have arrived to Europa in little ships of leather and it is writed. One when the romans was in Germany (Consul Metelus & suevi) and another when the Emperor Friederich II. possiblely, they, the "voyagers", was Inuits-eskimos. j.anaya anay@arrakis.es |> ---------- |> From: Johan Deckers[SMTP:Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be] |> Reply To: discovery@win.tue.nl |> Sent: Friday, 22 Oct 1999 19:22 |> To: discoverylist |> Subject: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America? |> |> In a book of Richard Hennig, "Raadselachtige landen", I read that, shortly |> before the First World War, there was found an evidence of contacts |> between |> the Mediterranean and America. |> They found a coin in Hancock, Lenew, in the state Illinois, USA, on the |> terrain of the publisher Grey. The expert Emerson of the Institute of |> Beautiful Arts said it was a Greek or a Roman coin. |> Because of the war, this never became known in Europe. | ...Pieterjan Deckers Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be | | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Oct 24 16:58:07 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA08533 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:58:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA20795. Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:56:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA20791 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:56:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA16090 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:56:08 +0200 (MET DST) From: SSavage846@aol.com Received: from SSavage846@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id uOZBa12219 (4355); Sun, 24 Oct 1999 10:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.57599844.254477ac@aol.com> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 10:54:36 EDT Subject: Re: RE: [EXP] RE: Did the ancients know about America? To: anay@arrakis.es, discovery@win.tue.nl CC: Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be, mmcmenam@mtholyoke.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO In a message dated 10/24/99 9:02:40 AM, anay@arrakis.es writes: << It is very possible that the first to cross the atlantic ocean was not the people of the old World, but the americans. Two times "indians" have arrived to Europa in little ships of leather and it is writed. One when the romans was in Germany (Consul Metelus & suevi) and another when the Emperor Friederich II. possiblely, they, the "voyagers", was Inuits-eskimos. j.anaya anay@arrakis.es >> I have never heard of this before. What are your sources? Stephen From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Oct 24 19:37:36 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA10819 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:37:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA21237. Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:34:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA21233 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:34:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp2.libero.it [193.70.192.52] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA17231 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:34:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: ventifebbraio@iol.it Received: from q2h1u7 (195.210.75.159) by smtp2.libero.it; 24 Oct 1999 19:33:44 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991024193557.007bcc20@popmail.iol.it> X-Sender: ventifebbraio@popmail.iol.it (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:35:57 +0200 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: RE: [EXP] RE: Did the ancients know about America? In-Reply-To: <000a01bf1e27$71d97de0$654e05c3@anayarrakis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I would like to know more about this. Could you please specify your sources? Me gustar=ECa mucho conocer m=E0s sobre lo que usted escribe. Ser=ECa posibl= e saber las fontes de sus informaziones? Thank you / Gracias Franco Cavalleri CSST Centro Studi Sviluppo e Territorio Como Italy At 15.55 24/10/99 +0200, you wrote: > >It is very possible that the first to cross the atlantic ocean was not >the people of the old World, but the americans. Two times >"indians" have arrived to Europa in little ships of leather and it is >writed. > One when the romans was in Germany (Consul Metelus & suevi) >and another when the Emperor Friederich II. > possiblely, they, the "voyagers", was Inuits-eskimos. >j.anaya anay@arrakis.es > > > > >|> ---------- >|> From: Johan Deckers[SMTP:Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be] >|> Reply To: discovery@win.tue.nl >|> Sent: Friday, 22 Oct 1999 19:22 >|> To: discoverylist >|> Subject: [EXP] Did the ancients know about America? >|> >|> In a book of Richard Hennig, "Raadselachtige landen", I read that, >shortly >|> before the First World War, there was found an evidence of contacts >|> between >|> the Mediterranean and America. >|> They found a coin in Hancock, Lenew, in the state Illinois, USA, on the >|> terrain of the publisher Grey. The expert Emerson of the Institute of >|> Beautiful Arts said it was a Greek or a Roman coin. >|> Because of the war, this never became known in Europe. >| ...Pieterjan Deckers Deckers.Johan@village.uunet.be >| >| > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Oct 24 22:02:33 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA12738 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:02:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id WAA21808. Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:00:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [212.59.199.83] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id WAA21804 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:00:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from anayarrakis ([195.5.76.80]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FK4I7U05.I00; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 21:59:54 +0200 Message-ID: <000c01bf1e59$fb69c9c0$504c05c3@anayarrakis> From: "J. anaya" To: , Cc: , Subject: RE: RE: [EXP] RE: Did the ancients know about America? Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 21:57:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO to Franco Cavalleri and to Stephen: I have read these things in more places...For example, in Plinius... In this moment, only I remember this, of a book of Francisco Lopez de Gomara "Historia General de las Indias" (Seville, 1552) "It is not remembered that only has come of there [America] a ship...[Pomponius?] Mela and Plinius writed...that it (the ship of indians) come to stop in Germany...the king of Suevi, that some call saxons...presented some indians of it [the ship] to Quintus Metelus Celer ... ... ... In times of Emperor Federico Barbarroja [Frederich Redbeard ?] they [?] brought to Lubec some Indians in a canoe... " J. Anaya anay@arrakis.es | |In a message dated 10/24/99 9:02:40 AM, anay@arrakis.es writes: | |<< It is very possible that the first to cross the atlantic ocean was not | |the people of the old World, but the americans. Two times | |"indians" have arrived to Europa in little ships of leather and it is | |writed. | | One when the romans was in Germany (Consul Metelus & suevi) | |and another when the Emperor Friederich II. | | possiblely, they, the "voyagers", was Inuits-eskimos. | |j.anaya anay@arrakis.es >> |I have never heard of this before. What are your sources? |Stephen From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Oct 24 23:37:35 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA14058 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:37:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id XAA22106. Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:34:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA22100 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:34:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [212.59.199.83] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA19188 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:34:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from anayarrakis ([195.5.77.222]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FK4ML907.10E; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:34:21 +0200 Message-ID: <000601bf1e67$2ddbaf60$de4d05c3@anayarrakis> From: "J. anaya" To: , Cc: , Subject: RE: RE: [EXP] RE: Did the ancients know about America? Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:31:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ( corrected) to Franco Cavalleri and to Stephen: I have read these things in more places...For example, in Plinius... In this moment, only I remember this, of a book of Francisco Lopez de Gomara "Historia General de las Indias" (Seville, 1552) "It is remembered that only has come of there [America] a ship...[Pomponius?] Mela and Plinius wrote...that it (the ship of indians) come to stop in Germany...the king of Suevi, that some call saxons...presented some indians of it [the ship] to Quintus Metelus Celer ... ... ... In times of Emperor Federico Barbarroja [Frederich Redbeard ?] they [?] brought to Lubec some Indians in a canoe... " J. Anaya anay@arrakis.es | ||In a message dated 10/24/99 9:02:40 AM, anay@arrakis.es writes: ||<< It is very possible that the first to cross the atlantic ocean was not ||the people of the old World, but the americans. Two times ||"indians" have arrived to Europa in little ships of leather and it is ||writed. || One when the romans was in Germany (Consul Metelus & suevi) ||and another when the Emperor Friederich II. || possiblely, they, the "voyagers", was Inuits-eskimos. ||j.anaya anay@arrakis.es >> ||I have never heard of this before. What are your sources? ||Stephen From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Oct 25 07:45:45 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA23459 (ESMTP). Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:45:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id HAA23885. Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:43:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA23877 (ESMTP). Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:43:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lorica.ucc.usyd.edu.au [129.78.64.15] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA23692 (ESMTP). Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:42:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.usyd.edu.au (p6258.net10.usyd.edu.au [10.0.24.114]) by lorica.ucc.usyd.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27022 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:42:54 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3813ED91.A48F6460@mail.usyd.edu.au> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:41:38 +1000 From: Robin Anscomb Organization: Law School, University of Sydney X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] RE: Did the ancients know about America? References: <0.57599844.254477ac@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The University of Aberdeen has the kayak in which an Inuit paddled into the Don river in the 1730's. He, the Inuit, died before being able to tell his story. Robin Anscomb. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Oct 25 23:06:35 1999 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA17690 (ESMTP). Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:06:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id XAA01932. Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:02:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA01928 (ESMTP). Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:02:16 +0200 (MET DST) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id lZEZa14300 (4264) for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.b7311133.25461f36@aol.com> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:01:42 EDT Subject: Re: RE: [EXP] RE: Did the ancients know about America? To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The present currents in the N.Atlantic certainly favor this part of the story. The questions remain concerning what the currents were at that time. Carl Schuster