From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 8 16:35:32 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA00412 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:35:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA04231. Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:30:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA04223 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:30:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from paulsnewtoy (dialup-209.244.108.36.Seattle1.Level3.net [209.244.108.36]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA07919 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 07:30:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002a01bf892d$8b9e3c40$246cf4d1@paulsnewtoy> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: References: <200003081126.MAA03604@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Ferdinand Magellan Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:38:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Ryan, a place to start would be a book on daily life in Portugal from which Magaeles (the original form of his name, sans accents) hailed. There is a good one from the period just before his (things did not change that much), the book is A.H. de Oliveira Marques, A Sociedade Medieval Portuguesa, Lisboa, 5th edition, 1987. This has been translated into English, I think, as Daily Life in Portugal in the Middle Ages, or something like that. I am sure you will be able to find it. Marques is also the author of a general history. Paul D. Buell From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 8 19:15:28 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA07902 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:15:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA07908. Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:13:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA07904 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:13:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id TAA03880. Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:13:19 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200003081813.TAA03880@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Ferdinand Magellan In-Reply-To: <002a01bf892d$8b9e3c40$246cf4d1@paulsnewtoy> from "Paul D. Buell" at "Mar 8, 2000 10:38:48 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:13:18 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Paul D. Buell wrote: > Ryan, a place to start would be a book on daily life in Portugal from which > Magaeles (the original form of his name, sans accents) hailed. Magaeles? I always have been told it was 'Magelhaes' (with a tilde (~) on the second A). -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 8 21:33:46 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA12714 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:33:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA10404. Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:31:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA10400 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:31:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from paulsnewtoy (dialup-209.245.165.47.Seattle1.Level3.net [209.245.165.47]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA25158 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:31:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000a01bf8957$a86ae100$2fa5f5d1@paulsnewtoy> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: References: <200003081813.TAA03880@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Ferdinand Magellan Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:40:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO You are right. I misspelled it. Need more coffee. PDBuell From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 8 21:43:49 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA12933 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:43:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA10493. Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:42:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA10489 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:41:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from paulsnewtoy (dialup-209.245.165.47.Seattle1.Level3.net [209.245.165.47]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA26398 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:41:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001601bf8959$162b62e0$2fa5f5d1@paulsnewtoy> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: References: <200003081813.TAA03880@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Ferdinand Magellan Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:50:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Also Magalhaes, with a tilda. On the Portuguese in Asia see also the excellent bibliography by Daya da Silva, The Portuguese in Asia, IDC, 1987. With reference to the original request, a good book on the life of Spain's early men of the sea is Pablo E. Perez-Mallaina, Spain's Men of the Sea, trans. by Carla Rahn Phillips, The Johns Hopkins Press, 1998. Perhaps someone can add the best biography of Magalhaes in English. Paul D. buell From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 8 22:25:58 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA14862 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:25:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA11853. Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:24:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from mercurio.feedback.net.ar [200.16.157.8] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA11849 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:24:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from [200.41.173.21] (versa021.feedback.net.ar [200.41.173.21]) by mail.feedback.net.ar (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA22174 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:29:13 -0300 Message-Id: <200003082129.SAA22174@mail.feedback.net.ar> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 18:26:00 -0300 Subject: Re: [EXP] Ferdinand Magellan From: "Fabian Martin" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hi, Paul and Andre: As a person who speaks spanish and portuguese, I would recommend you to not trust too much in any spelling from hundreds years back, and, perhaps, trust better the SOUND of the words, instead of the letters. Both languages (and the dialects standing between them, as Galician) have changed the spelling out of changes in ortographic norms over the centuries, and in fact, even in XIX century writings you will find major diferences even within the same page. Best wishes, -- Fabian Martin ---------- >From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: Re: [EXP] Ferdinand Magellan >Date: Wed, Mar 8, 2000, 3:13 PM > > Paul D. Buell wrote: >> Ryan, a place to start would be a book on daily life in Portugal from which >> Magaeles (the original form of his name, sans accents) hailed. > > Magaeles? I always have been told it was 'Magelhaes' (with a tilde (~) on the > second A). > > > -- > Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 > http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > > A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. > - Maria Montessori > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 8 23:23:20 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA16959 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:23:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA13065. Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:21:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA13061 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:21:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from paulsnewtoy (dialup-209.245.167.189.Seattle1.Level3.net [209.245.167.189]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA10483 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:21:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000801bf8966$f1057740$bda7f5d1@paulsnewtoy> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: References: <200003082129.SAA22174@mail.feedback.net.ar> Subject: Re: [EXP] Ferdinand Magellan Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:29:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Fabrian: point very well taken. In fact I have just found a whole bunch of other spellings. Paul D. Buell From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 8 23:27:29 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA17021 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:27:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA13106. Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:25:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA13101 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:25:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from [144.92.188.98] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id QAA151744 (8.9.1/50); Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:25:38 -0600 Message-Id: <4.1.20000308160758.009cf210@students.wisc.edu> Message-Id: <4.1.20000308160758.009cf210@students.wisc.edu> X-Sender: ASANDMAN@students.wisc.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 16:15:38 -0600 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Alison Sandman Subject: Re: [EXP] Ferdinand Magellan In-Reply-To: <200003081126.MAA03604@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_167150==_.ALT" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO --=====================_167150==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tim Joyner published a very accessible English-language biography in 1992. I think it was called Magellan. If I remember rightly, he also included an annotated bibliography of other Magellan biographies as an appendix. Alison Sandman asandman@students.wisc.edu History of Science dept. University of Wisconsin, Madison At 12:26 PM 3/8/00 +0100, you wrote: >This message was sent to the list, but originally refused as a non-member >submission. > >Ryan, I have subscribed you to the list. If you do not want to receive >any more messages from the list, you can send an email to majordomo@win.tue.nl >with the text 'unsubscribe discovery' in the body of the message. Of course >the same holds for all other people on this list. > >----- Forwarded message ----- > >I was wondering if you could answer a few of my >questions. > >Was Magellan married?Any children? > >In the town where he grew up, What did people eat? Do >for jobs? Do for fun? > >I fyou would please answer these questions as best as >you could I would appreciate it. >Thanks >Ryan > >----- End of forwarded message ----- > >-- >Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 >http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > >A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. > - Maria Montessori --=====================_167150==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Tim Joyner published a very accessible English-language biography in 1992.  I think it was called Magellan.  If I remember rightly, he also included an annotated bibliography of other Magellan biographies as an appendix.

Alison Sandman
asandman@students.wisc.edu
History of Science dept.
University of Wisconsin, Madison 

At 12:26 PM 3/8/00 +0100, you wrote:
>This message was sent to the list, but originally refused as a non-member
>submission.
>
>Ryan, I have subscribed you to the list. If you do not want to receive
>any more messages from the list, you can send an email to majordomo@win.tue.nl
>with the text 'unsubscribe discovery' in the body of the message. Of course
>the same holds for all other people on this list.
>
>----- Forwarded message -----
>
>I was wondering if you could answer a few of my
>questions.
>
>Was Magellan married?Any children?
>
>In the town where he grew up, What did people eat?  Do
>for jobs? Do for fun?
>
>I fyou would please answer these questions as best as
>you could I would appreciate it. 
>Thanks
>Ryan
>
>----- End of forwarded message -----
>
>--
>Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644
>http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html
>
>A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze.
>                                               - Maria Montessori
--=====================_167150==_.ALT-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 13 09:21:54 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA10806 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:21:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id JAA19876. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:18:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA19872 (SMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:18:24 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 73755 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2000 08:18:22 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 13 Mar 2000 08:18:22 -0000 Message-ID: <38CCA39A.619C65AA@easynet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:15:23 +0000 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Francesco Carletti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Andre et al. Can anybody provide me with information on Francesco Carletti, the Florentine who travelled into most parts of the known world between 1594 and 1602 (or 1606)? I know that he travelled as far as Japan, Burma and the Americas, observed the use of soya beans and was partly responsible for the introduction of chocolate into Europe. He receives not a single mention in any of my 3,000 books on travel and exploration. His journal was not published in English until the late 1930s (Broadway Travellers Series), but I have been unable to trace a copy of this book. If anybody could provide a potted biography and itinerary of this formidable traveller I would be extremely grateful. Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 13 11:23:46 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA18098 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:23:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id LAA23306. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:21:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA23297 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:21:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id LAA00826. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:21:38 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200003131021.LAA00826@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] HennySavenije@excite.com To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:21:37 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Note: The original message was refused because it was sent from a different address from the one Henny is subscribed by. On this list only messages from subscribers can be sent, I have taken that measure to avoid spam. Note 2: Henny, could you give a more precise URL for the book? I could find it neither on Barnes & Noble (to which amazone.com is affiliated) nor at Amazon (amazon.com which I assume you did actually mean to write). Andre Engels, list manager ----- Forwarded message ----- Just got some information, but the Carletti discourses are for sale, just go to amazone.com (no I am not affiliated. I wrote everything he did in excellent accounts. On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:15:23 +0000, discovery@win.tue.nl wrote: > Dear Andre et al. > > Can anybody provide me with information on Francesco Carletti, the > Florentine who travelled into most parts of the known world between 1594 > and 1602 (or 1606)? > > I know that he travelled as far as Japan, Burma and the Americas, > observed the use of soya beans and was partly responsible for the > introduction of chocolate into Europe. > > He receives not a single mention in any of my 3,000 books on travel and > exploration. His journal was not published in English until the late > 1930s (Broadway Travellers Series), but I have been unable to trace a > copy of this book. > > If anybody could provide a potted biography and itinerary of this > formidable traveller I would be extremely grateful. > > Ray Howgego _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com ----- End of forwarded message ----- -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 13 15:57:21 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA05074 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:57:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA01519. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:55:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailx.chollian.net [203.252.3.22] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA01515 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:55:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from savenije ([164.124.135.91]) by mailx.dacom.co.kr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA23559 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:54:09 +0900 (KST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000313234806.026ac650@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:57:24 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Francesco Carletti In-Reply-To: <38CCA39A.619C65AA@easynet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 05:15 PM 3/13/00 , you wrote: >Dear Andre et al. > >Can anybody provide me with information on Francesco Carletti, the >Florentine who travelled into most parts of the known world between 1594 >and 1602 (or 1606)? > >I know that he travelled as far as Japan, Burma and the Americas, >observed the use of soya beans and was partly responsible for the >introduction of chocolate into Europe. > >He receives not a single mention in any of my 3,000 books on travel and >exploration. His journal was not published in English until the late >1930s (Broadway Travellers Series), but I have been unable to trace a >copy of this book. > >If anybody could provide a potted biography and itinerary of this >formidable traveller I would be extremely grateful. > >Ray Howgego OK, a bit of a balanced answer: I have been looking in one of the libraries here (Seoul Korea) and they have part of the Carletti Discourses published by the Japanese branch of the Royal Asian Society over there. The article is called "The Carletti discourse, a contemporary Italian account of a visit to Japan in 1597-98, translated by Bishop Trolope, he discusses discourse 1 to 12 briefly and discusses the part that he was in Japan into extent. I was there with an author Kang Min Soo, who wants to write a novel about Andrea Corea and Jan Janse Weltevree (both mentioned on my homepages). He told me he was going to buy the complete discourses since they are republished recently and he mentioned amazone.com. Since I was in the university where I was working, I send an email from another account, Andre replied and asked for some more information. I searched amazon.com and couldn't find it, but as soon as Min Soo is a bit more settled (he just moved back to LA after having lived for 5 years in Korea) I will ask him and come back to it. ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) http://user.chollian.net/~savenije Western maps about Korea (1500~1800) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 13 17:18:09 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA10703 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:18:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA04680. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:15:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA04676 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:15:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from 216-164-231-159.s413.tnt7.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com ([216.164.231.159] helo=erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12UXV6-0006vx-00 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:15:24 -0500 Message-ID: <38CD136A.418F8488@erols.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:12:26 -0500 From: Reynolds X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en]C-RR082798 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Francesco Carletti and www.bookfinder.com References: <38CCA39A.619C65AA@easynet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Re: Francesco Carletti inquiry from Ray Howgego Best immediate resource is the book "My Voyage Around the World: The Chronicles of a 16th Century Florentine Merchant," translated by Herbert Weinstock, published by Pantheon in 1964, octavo format with maps and illustrations. It is commonly found in used bookstores in prices ranging from $10 to $50. Please note: For those of you asting your time and money using amazon.com as a resource: I have tested amazon.com against other on-line search engines for out of print and hard to find books - amazon consistently prices such books very high, fails to find such books, and takes a long time to complete their search. Far superior to amazon.com is bookfinder.com , a search engine for new, used and out of print books that incorporates about a dozen other resources, including amazon, barnes and noble, Bibliofind, Alibris, Antiqbook, etc. No other search engine has compared to its breadth and depth, nor its comparative price listing of books found. Bookfinder posts its search results immediately, from the listings incorporated. It does incorporate booksellers from North America, Europe and Australia (perhaps elsewhere, but those are the continents where I have purchased hard to find books through bookfinder.com). For the record, I have no commercial or other interest in bookfinder or any other bookseller or search engine. So, Ray, go to bookfinder, search on Carletti, and you will have your reference at a fair price in a week. I just took ninety seconds to check on Carletti, and found more than thirty copies currently listed for sale. -- Captain William T. (Chip) Reynolds Replica ship Half Moon 1507 Amherst Rd Hyattsville, MD 20783 +301-422-2940 (voice) +301-422-2965 (facsimile) annc@erols.com www.newnetherland.org From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 13 17:28:15 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA11160 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:28:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA04887. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:26:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from bernie.compusmart.ab.ca [199.185.130.12] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA04883 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:26:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from 002.207-34-71-0.interbaun.com ([207.34.71.2]:1066 "HELO oemcomputer" ident: "NO-IDENT-SERVICE[2]") by mail.compusmart.ab.ca with SMTP id <27305-232>; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:24:47 -0700 Message-ID: <001a01bf8d09$020d2060$024722cf@oemcomputer> From: "Ronald Whistance-Smith" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Francesco Carletti MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 09:24:47 -0700 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO It took about 3 seconds to copy the author's name into the author box on "Bibliofind" and that revealed dozens of copies of the book available in English, Spanish and Italian in hardback and paperback, and in an amazingly wide range of prices. Do have a look. Doing the same with the "FAST" search engine produced 1047 hits, many in Italian. I'm sure that one or more of these will contain the information you are seeking. Ron -----Original Message----- From: Ray Howgego To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Monday, March 13, 2000 1:30 AM Subject: [EXP] Francesco Carletti >Dear Andre et al. > >Can anybody provide me with information on Francesco Carletti, the >Florentine who travelled into most parts of the known world between 1594 >and 1602 (or 1606)? > >I know that he travelled as far as Japan, Burma and the Americas, >observed the use of soya beans and was partly responsible for the >introduction of chocolate into Europe. > >He receives not a single mention in any of my 3,000 books on travel and >exploration. His journal was not published in English until the late >1930s (Broadway Travellers Series), but I have been unable to trace a >copy of this book. > >If anybody could provide a potted biography and itinerary of this >formidable traveller I would be extremely grateful. > >Ray Howgego > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 13 18:47:32 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA14601 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:47:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA06830. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:45:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail2.oneimage.com [206.168.121.230] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA06822 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:45:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from oneimage.com (node107.boulder.dt.oneimage.com [206.168.123.116]) by mail2.oneimage.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23619 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:45:08 -0700 Message-ID: <38CD2909.B26EF1F5@oneimage.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:44:41 -0700 From: Dick Fischbach X-Sender: "Dick Fischbach" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Francesco Carletti References: <38CCA39A.619C65AA@easynet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Ray, I suggest that you download Copernic 2000 - in my opinion one of the finest of all search engines - (http://www.copernic.com) and search for Carletti, Francesco. My search brought up Gerry Abbott's 'Inroads into Burma: A Travellers' Anthology,' published by Oxford University Press, 1998. This book discusses southeast asia travelers, including Carletti; (a listing of the book's table of contents can be seen at http://www.amazon.com). If you are comfortable with Dutch, Italian, Czech and other languages Copernic's search will bring up additional information, such as archives and antiquarian booksellers. Dick Fischbach Ray Howgego wrote: > > Dear Andre et al. > > Can anybody provide me with information on Francesco Carletti, the > Florentine who travelled into most parts of the known world between 1594 > and 1602 (or 1606)? > > I know that he travelled as far as Japan, Burma and the Americas, > observed the use of soya beans and was partly responsible for the > introduction of chocolate into Europe. > > He receives not a single mention in any of my 3,000 books on travel and > exploration. His journal was not published in English until the late > 1930s (Broadway Travellers Series), but I have been unable to trace a > copy of this book. > > If anybody could provide a potted biography and itinerary of this > formidable traveller I would be extremely grateful. > > Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 13 19:09:26 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA16032 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:09:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA08017. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:07:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA08013 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:07:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id TAA01603. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:07:21 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200003131807.TAA01603@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Capability Brown To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:07:21 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Another message asking for my help on a subject I did not have sufficient information about, so I am forwarding this to the list. Anyone can answer this question (sending to the list would suffice). ----- Forwarded message from patrick.maguire@ntex01.quixell.com ----- I was wondering if you have any advice about where to look for information on botanists/explorers who introduced plants/flowers to England during the 17th/18th/19th centuries? Capability Brown is a name I have heard but would appreciate any info you could pass on. ----- End of forwarded message from patrick.maguire@ntex01.quixell.com ----- -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 13 19:37:50 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA16741 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:37:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA08431. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:35:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA08421 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:35:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id TAA01650. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:35:38 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200003131835.TAA01650@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Capability Brown To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:35:37 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Another message sent from an address slightly different from the subscribed one. I will change some of the settings to make this less of a problem. Andre Engels ----- Forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 15:01:13 -0330 (NST) From: Olaf Janzen To: discovery@win.tue.nl cc: patrick.maguire@ntex01.quixell.com Subject: Re: [EXP] Capability Brown Patrick O'Brian provides some discussion of the way Joseph Banks and others collected plants that were subsequently placed in the collections of Kew Gardens. See O'Brian's "Joseph Banks: A Life" (London: Collins Harvill, 1988; ISBN 0-00-272340-9). O'Brian defines Banks as an "Explorer, Plant hunter, Scientist." More on Banks and his passion for collecting can be found in "Joseph Banks in Newfoundland & Labrador, 1766: His Diary, Manuscripts and Collections" (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1971; ISBN 0-520-01780-3). Olaf Janzen Corner Brook, Newfoundland **************************************************************************** On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 engels@win.tue.nl wrote: > ----- Forwarded message from patrick.maguire@ntex01.quixell.com ----- > > I was wondering if you have any advice about where to look for information > on botanists/explorers who introduced plants/flowers to England during the > 17th/18th/19th centuries? Capability Brown is a name I have heard but would > appreciate any info you could pass on. > ----- End of forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 13 19:47:01 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA17084 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:47:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA08631. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:45:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA08626 (ESMTP). Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:45:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id TAA01734. Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:45:11 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200003131845.TAA01734@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] poster list To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:45:11 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Because a few messages lately were refused by majordomo as non-member submissions while being perfectly valid postings, I have changed the rules: There is now a list of addresses that are not subscribed, but still allowed to post. If you have any address, other than the one you receive this message from, that you might be posting to the list to, then please send me an email so I can add it to the list of allowed addresses. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Mar 14 01:08:24 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA04834 (ESMTP). Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:08:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA17376. Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:06:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from f201.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.201] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA17372 (SMTP). Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:06:03 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 2242 invoked by uid 0); 14 Mar 2000 00:05:34 -0000 Message-ID: <20000314000534.2241.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 63.26.189.78 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:05:34 PST X-Originating-IP: [63.26.189.78] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Capability Brown Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:05:34 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO A quick check on AltaVista Advanced Search came up with over 1,700 hits for <"capability brown"> and over 800 hits for <"capability brown" and garden>. Many sites were about garden history. Shouldn't be too much trouble to find something about this man. >From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) >Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: [EXP] Capability Brown >Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:07:21 +0100 (MET) > >Another message asking for my help on a subject I did not have sufficient >information about, so I am forwarding this to the list. Anyone can answer >this question (sending to the list would suffice). > >----- Forwarded message from patrick.maguire@ntex01.quixell.com ----- > >I was wondering if you have any advice about where to look for information >on botanists/explorers who introduced plants/flowers to England during the >17th/18th/19th centuries? Capability Brown is a name I have heard but would >appreciate any info you could pass on. > >----- End of forwarded message from patrick.maguire@ntex01.quixell.com >----- > >-- >Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 >http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > >A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. > - Maria Montessori > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 15 19:01:13 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA02736 (ESMTP). Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:01:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA18457. Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:56:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from f83.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.241.83] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA18452 (SMTP). Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:56:53 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 88980 invoked by uid 0); 15 Mar 2000 17:56:22 -0000 Message-ID: <20000315175622.88979.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 194.205.189.106 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:56:22 PST X-Originating-IP: [194.205.189.106] From: "Paddy Maguire" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Capability Brown Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:56:22 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Thanks for your info! I was being dim >From: "Gregory McIntosh" >Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: Re: [EXP] Capability Brown >Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:05:34 PST > >A quick check on AltaVista Advanced Search came up with over 1,700 hits for ><"capability brown"> and over 800 hits for <"capability brown" and garden>. >Many sites were about garden history. > >Shouldn't be too much trouble to find something about this man. > >>From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) >>Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl >>To: discovery@win.tue.nl >>Subject: [EXP] Capability Brown >>Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:07:21 +0100 (MET) >> >>Another message asking for my help on a subject I did not have sufficient >>information about, so I am forwarding this to the list. Anyone can answer >>this question (sending to the list would suffice). >> >>----- Forwarded message from patrick.maguire@ntex01.quixell.com ----- >> >>I was wondering if you have any advice about where to look for information >>on botanists/explorers who introduced plants/flowers to England during the >>17th/18th/19th centuries? Capability Brown is a name I have heard but >>would >>appreciate any info you could pass on. >> >>----- End of forwarded message from patrick.maguire@ntex01.quixell.com >>----- >> >>-- >>Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 >>http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html >> >>A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. >> - Maria Montessori >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 15 19:01:13 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA02751 (ESMTP). Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:01:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA18464. Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:57:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from f83.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.241.83] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA18460 (SMTP). Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:57:25 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 89125 invoked by uid 0); 15 Mar 2000 17:56:55 -0000 Message-ID: <20000315175655.89124.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 194.205.189.106 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:56:55 PST X-Originating-IP: [194.205.189.106] From: "Paddy Maguire" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Capability Brown Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:56:55 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Thanks for your info! >From: jwood >Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: Re: [EXP] Capability Brown >Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:17:32 -0800 > >The family Nuttal where involved in supplying exotic plants to >European nobility. > A quick trick would be to look at the latin names of plants and >check to see if in vanity the surnames of the discoverers where used . > > >Ralph Heading > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 16 10:05:49 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA11388 (ESMTP). Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:05:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA08685. Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:02:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA08627 (ESMTP). Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:02:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id KAA05062. Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:02:00 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200003160902.KAA05062@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Our Discussions on CD-ROM To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:01:59 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hmmm... This shows that my list of allowed senders does not work as it should do - the address this was sent from (peter@maphist.nl) is on that list, but this did not get through. I'll see whether I can correct the error. Andre Engels ----- Forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- Dear all As most of you already know, I publish every year an edited and indexed version of the MapHist discussions. The first years on paper, and last year on CD-ROM. The discussions are more or less edited, or better, cleaned up: Spams, and wrongly posted personal messages are not included, unnecessary internet headers (only date, name of sender and subject are kept), signature files and copies of original messages are removed. The files are coverted to PDF-format and indexed. Acrobat Reader+Search version 4.05 in four languages is included on the CD-Rom for those who have it yet. For further information see http://www.maphist.nl (choose MapHist CD-Rom) I have now finished the 2000 edition with the discussions up to and including 1999. The price is still the same: US$ 25. On the CD-ROM the discussions of the Discovery-List and some of the message from the Maptrade list are included as well. Subscribers who have objections to the insertion of their messages on the CD-ROM, please inform me privately at peter@maphist.nl P.S. See also the 1996 discussion about copyright at the end of the MapHist CD-Rom page, click there on "Here" P.S. 2: For the disconnected MapHisters, the archive files of January and February 2000 are included as well (unedited). Peter YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115 3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands e-mail: p.vanderkrogt@geog.uu.nl Fax +31 15 212 6063 More information: http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/ YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY ----- End of forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Mar 17 22:34:03 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA25770 (ESMTP). Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:34:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA01690. Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:29:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from druglady.com [209.66.79.109] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA01685 (ESMTP). Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:29:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from Nupedia (24-25-196-102.san.rr.com [24.25.196.102]) by cobrand.bomis.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12006 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:31:20 -0600 Message-ID: <03f101bf9057$862fd760$0901a8c0@Bomis.com> From: "Larry Sanger" To: Subject: [EXP] Open content encyclopedia calls for submissions about exploration Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:26:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO (This is sent with permission from the listowner -- thanks, Andre.) A major new encyclopedia project, Nupedia.com, requests expert help in constructing an "open content" encyclopedia, planned to become the largest general encyclopedia in history. The project has significant financial support, and its leaders and owners are committed to a years-long, intensive effort -- to founding an open, public institution. If you are an expert in any subject, your participation in the project will be welcome. We are in need of well-qualified writers, editors, and peer reviewers, and will be doing searches for subject area editors. Moreover, if you are a good writer and researcher, you may be interested in contributing short biographies, descriptions of cities, and other brief entries. What does it mean to say the encyclopedia is "open content"? This means that anyone can use content taken from Nupedia articles for almost any purpose, both for-profit or non-profit, so long as Nupedia is credited as the source and so long as the distributor of the information does not attempt to restrict others from distributing the same information. Nupedia will be "open content" in the same way that Linux and the Open Directory Project (dmoz.com) are "open source." As has been the case with those projects, we plan to attract a huge body of talented contributors. Because Nupedia will be open content, it will be in a freely-distributable public resource created by an international public effort. It is not an exaggeration to say that your contributions would help to provide an international public a free education. We believe Nupedia is, thus, a project worthy of your attention. Since making our initial press release a week ago, about 700 people from around the world have signed up as Nupedia members, including some very highly-qualified people (e.g., Ph.D.'s in very many subject areas). If you want to join us or stay apprised of the progress of Nupedia, please take a minute to go to the Nupedia website at http://www.nupedia.com/ and become a member. (Becoming a member is quick, easy, and free.) Thank you very much for your attention. Larry Sanger, Ph.D. expected May 2000 Philosophy, Ohio State Editor-in-Chief, Nupedia.com San Diego, California P.S. If you wish to help promote this project -- something we would greatly appreciate -- please do forward this announcement to any *appropriate* forums and to colleagues you think may be interested (including your local/departmental mailing lists and newsgroups). Or, if you would rather that Nupedia make the announcement on a forum you frequent, please just give us a pointer to the forum and we can take it from there. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 20 10:09:29 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA08824 (ESMTP). Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:09:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA06408. Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:04:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA06140 (SMTP). Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:49:51 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 70147 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2000 08:46:40 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 20 Mar 2000 08:46:40 -0000 Message-ID: <38D5E4B8.4B56A6FA@easynet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 08:43:36 +0000 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Information needed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Thanks to all who replied regarding my request for information about Francesco Carletti. Unfortunately I am still none the wiser. The web sites (which I could find for myself) give no more than a passing reference. The information was needed to complete an article in my database of expeditions, which I am hoping will eventually give details of every known expedition from the earliest times to the year 1800. This project, a labour of love which has occupied me, off and on, for many years, is nearing completion, but there are still a few names for which I have no more than a sentence or two. I had already compiled a bibliography of at least 15 books and articles on Carletti, but I cannot afford to buy an entire book on every explorer for whom I have a database entry. I already have over 3,000 books on exploration in the house, and my wife is complaining about the space they occupy. In the meantime, I would be very grateful for information regarding any of the following, all of whom return a null response from the search engines, and appear to have no books or articles written on them: BENEDETTO DEI ANTONIO MALFANTE PAUL IMBERT (all of the above were early visitors to Timbuktu, in which I have a particular interest) (SIR?)THOMAS PECHE JOHN STRONG (17th-century English navigators in the Pacific) SAVVA LOSHKIN (18th-century Russian circumnavigator of Novaya Zemlya) Many thanks to anybody who can help. Ray Howgego. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 00:32:44 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA01916 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:32:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA02217. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:29:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA02213 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:29:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.203] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA01779 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:29:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from [194.65.202.2] ([194.65.180.95]) by fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000322233141.NWSR16776.fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.202.2]> for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:31:41 +0000 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200003082129.SAA22174@mail.feedback.net.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:33:30 +0000 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] Re: Ferdinand Magellan Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >Hi, Paul and Andre: >As a person who speaks spanish and portuguese, I would recommend you to not >trust too much in any spelling from hundreds years back, and, perhaps, trus= t >better the SOUND of the words, instead of the letters. Both languages (and >the dialects standing between them, as Galician) have changed the spelling >out of changes in ortographic norms over the centuries, and in fact, even i= n >XIX century writings you will find major diferences even within the same >page. >Best wishes, >-- >Fabian Martin > That is absolutelly true. Some Portuguese names had many variations through out the centuries. In the case of the navigator known by the English-speaking people as "Ferdinand Magellan", the correct spelling of his name in Portuguese (his own language) is nowadays "Fern=E3o de Magalh=E3es"("Fernao de Magalhaes" with a tilde in the first A and another tilde in the fourth A). The ancient name "Fern=E3o" (also spelled as "Fernam" or "Fernan") is the same thing as the modern day Portuguese "Fernando" ("Ferdinand" in English). The family name has always been spelled "Magalh=E3es", as in nowadays Portuguese. The only variation was certainly "Magalhaens" (another way of producing the nasal sound). I don't think that the spelling "Magelhaes" could have been used by Portuguese speaking people. Hope this can be useful. With best wishes Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 =46ax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras =46ax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* D=C9SIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 00:38:01 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA02063 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:38:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA02237. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:36:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA02233 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:36:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.203] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA00338 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:36:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from [194.65.202.2] ([194.65.180.95]) by fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000322233848.NYLU16776.fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.202.2]> for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:38:48 +0000 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:40:38 +0000 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] General bibliography on Portuguese discoveries Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The bibliography of Portuguese discoveries and cartography exists. It is availabe in the Internet at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm/ It is the only one on these subjects ever produced in Portugal (and one of the pioneer and most useful ever produced internationally), but until now its existence has been silenced, due to the fact that it was made by me=8A (since I am nowadays an "accursed author" silenced and persecuted by the censorship of the Portuguese official commemorators, together with some of their international accomplices) Here is a short note on the Bibliography: The Bibliografia Internacional dos Descobrimentos e Encontros Ultramarinos - International Bibliography of the Discoveries and Overseas Encounters, edited by Alfredo Pinheiro Marques (FLUC, and CEMAR), is a computerized bibliography in Portuguese and English, available in the Internet through the University of Coimbra, Portugal (www.uc.pt/bd.apm/). The Bibliography of the Discoveries covers texts published on the subject in Portugal and abroad, which are related to Portuguese and European Expansion Overseas (from the thirteenth- to the eighteenth-century), the History of Geographical Discoveries in general, and their Technical and Scientific Achievements in particular (Nautical Science, Cartography, Shipbuilding, etc.). It is mainly concerned with the Portuguese Geographical Discoveries and the Expansion of Portugal Overseas, and is complemented by a bibliography of texts referring to similar issues at a more general level, in relation to Europe and the world. Its aim is to provide a thorough inventory of works published on the Portuguese Geographical Discoveries and Expansion, accompanied by a basic bibliography of similar themes related to the world at large. The purpose is to provide Portuguese and non-Portuguese scholars with a list of what has been published on the Portuguese Geographical Discoveries and Overseas Expansion (rather than on the European Discoveries and Overseas Expansion as a whole, and for this reason the general sections do not intend to be in any way as complete as those dealing with Portugal; they are intended only as a parallel and secondary accompaniment to questions related to Portuguese matters). The version of this bibliography nowadays available in the Internet corresponds basically to the year 1992 (when is was launched). Later additions, when eventually included, are not intended to be systematic. This computerized bibliography has been developed out of the book Guia de Hist=F3ria dos Descobrimentos e Expans=E3o Portuguesa. Estudos [The Guide fo= r the Studies in the History of the Discoveries and Overseas Expansion] (Lisbon: National Library, 1987), by Alfredo Pinheiro Marques. Following the previous work carried out since 1989, in its first period the Bibliography of the Discoveries was produced and published by a team under the direction of Alfredo Pinheiro Marques (FLUC), whose headquarters was located in the Faculty of Science and Technology (FCTUC - Mathematics Dept.), in the University of Coimbra. It was launched there (on 25.11.1992) by H.E. the President of the Portuguese Republic, during the Celebration of the 6th Centenary of the Birth of the Infante Dom Pedro. It was dedicated to Professor Lu=EDs de Albuquerque, and received a preface by Professor Charles Ralph Boxer (1992). In its second period (1992-1996) the Bibliography of the Discoveries began to be published in the Internet by the Centro de Inform=E1tica da Universidade de Coimbra (CIUC), and used as its headquarters the facilities then available to the Centro de Estudos do Mar e das Navega=E7=F5es Lu=EDs d= e Albuquerque-CEMAR in Figueira da Foz (namely the ones made available by the =46igueira da Foz Municipal Council, in the Municipal Library and the =46ortress of Santa Catarina). During all these years (and the years to come= ) the project never received any support given by the National Commission for the Commemoration of the Portuguese Discoveries, as its responsible continued to be discriminated and persecuted by that Portuguese State institution. In its third period (1997-2000) the Bibliography of the Discoveries was maintained in the Internet by the University of Coimbra and its preparation and/or local display has been relocated in the new facilities used by the Centro de Estudos do Mar-CEMAR in Figueira da Foz (at the CEMAR's own headquarters), in Mira (at the Museu Etnogr=E1fico da Praia de Mira), and Montemor-o-Velho (at the Centro de Documenta=E7=E3o Infante Dom Pedro). In its beginnings this project received support from the CTT-Correios e Telecomunica=E7=F5es de Portugal (since 1989). From 1993 onwards, due to the splitting of CTT into two separate corporations, the support was maintained by Telecom Portugal, later transformed into Portugal Telecom Corporation. Meanwhile, some other sponsorships or collaborations had been obtained, namely from Inforgal (1992), from the above quoted University de Coimbra (1992-2000) and the Centro de Estudos do Mar-CEMAR (1995-2000). As has already been said, the National Commission for the Commemoration of the Portuguese Discoveries, which should have played a part in this project since the beginning in the years 1989-1992 (and at that time had it announced as one of its main projects), never actually gave it anything. Though this bibliography is the only one on these subjects ever produced in Portugal (and one of the pioneer and most useful ever produced internationally), until now its existence has been silenced, due to the fact that it was made by me=8A (since I am nowadays an "accursed author" silenced and persecuted by the censorship of the Portuguese official commemorators, together with some of their international accomplices). Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 =46ax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras =46ax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* D=C9SIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 00:38:06 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA02073 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:38:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA02245. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:36:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA02241 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:36:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.203] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA02029 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:36:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from [194.65.202.2] ([194.65.180.95]) by fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000322233902.NYNV16776.fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.202.2]> for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:39:02 +0000 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:40:51 +0000 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] Tribute to Prof. Charles Ralph Boxer Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Tribute to Prof. Charles Ralph Boxer historian of the European Expansion in the East and the Far East: During the year 1999 we had the honour of publishing the book Homenagem ao Professor Charles Ralph Boxer - A Tribute to Professor Charles Ralph Boxer, =46igueira da Foz-Montemor-o-Velho: CEMAR-Associa=E7=E3o Fern=E3o Mendes Pin= to, 1999 ISBN 972-8289-13-8 [in Portuguese and English, including bibliographical lists of his works] dedicated to the great English historian of the European Expansion (including cartography) in the East and the Far East (namely Portuguese Overseas Expansion and Dutch Overseas Expansion in these regions). Since 1926 and up until today, in a life full of personal and professional accomplishment, Professor Charles Ralph Boxer was able to gather round him the greatest and most indisputable scientific prestige, in national and international terms, with an effective continuity of his own work and the spreading of his influence. He helped the birth of new historiographic talents in the area of Portuguese and European Expansion Overseas. In Portugal his prestige was always indisputed (it couldn't have been any other way!) - and, because of that, right from the 50s onwards, the well-earned distinctions were gradually conferred on him - but the truth is that his historiographic work, because of its independent and unbiased character, never did please the official circles (and above all the academic ones, connected with the Portuguese fascist government during Salazar's regime). A few amusing stories are told about that displeasure specifically shown by Salazar himself. Being a great friend of Portugal and the Portuguese, Professor Boxer has always been a rigorous and honest historian, showing an adequate critical analysis of the Portuguese historiographical myths (the incredibly childish myths, due to political reasons, such as the legend of "Prince Henry the Navigator" and his fantastic "School of Sagres"). Prof. Charles Ralph Boxer always kept that good spirit. As has been written in 1993 in "The New York Review of Books" in relation to the myths of Prince Henry and is School: The school's existence has long been dismissed as a (=8A) very enduring myth (=8A) In fact Professor Charles Boxer, in his notes to the catalog of a 1990 exhibition at the New York Public Library (=8A) succintly demolished it (=8A= ). Boxer always had the good spirit, as a true historian, and we honour him for that too. In the Portuguese scientific community, Professor Charles Ralph Boxer had the greatest esteem and affection for his friend Professor Lu=EDs de Albuquerque - our Teacher, and the man who was the great Portuguese historian of Nautical Science (deceased in 1992) The Bibliografia Internacional dos Descobrimentos e Encontros Ultramarinos - International Bibliography of the Discoveries and Overseas Encounters (prepared in Coimbra by me, and launched during the commemorations of the 5th Centenary of the birth of Prince Peter) had in 1992 the honour of having a preface especially written for the occasion by Professor Charles Ralph Boxer (a preface which is still with it and always will be). When this preface was requested, the intention was, right from the start, not only for it to enrich the quality of the work, but clearly also to pay tribute to the great English historian. Up until the end of the 80s, Portugal paid homage to Professor Charles Ralph Boxer as it should. Nevertheless, unfortunately, from then on - after the disappearance of Professor Lu=EDs de Albuquerque (which occurred in 1991-1992) - it so happened that, throughout the following decade, the tributes which were due to Professor Charles Ralph Boxer by Portugal did not continue to be promoted in the same way, neither as often nor with the dimension that they should have. One must conclude - despite all that there is in it of lamentable, painful, and embarrassing for the Portuguese Culture and those who represent it today - that throughout the last few years, during the 90s, Professor Charles Ralph Boxer, the greatest specialist on the History of Portuguese Expansion Overseas (and above all on the Expansion in the East and the Far East), was almost completely forgotten and ignored by the official Portuguese commemorative circles. Those official circles, controlled by commemorative Commissioners who are complete strangers to this specialized scientific field, and who are placed in office by political appointment, have been carrying out so-called commemorations of India and Vasco da Gama, etc., in situations of great scandal and discredit - and, at the same time, throughout all these years (for almost a decade=8A!), they have not paid any special tribute in honour of Professor Charles Boxer with the monumental dimension and the dignity of State which were due (no new Congress dedicated especially to him=8A no "Festschrift" especially concerned with hi= s life and work=8A no special edition of a scientific journal in his honour, n= o new ceremony, high honorific distinction, or official tribute of any other kind=8A - in short, practically nothing=8A!). Once again, the Portuguese professional Commemorators missed an opportunity to honour Portugal, and missed the opportunity to honour "one of those Men who, by immortal deeds", in his lifetime "has conquered death's oblivion", and has dedicated his work to honouring Portugal. Professor Charles Ralph Boxer, ninety-five years old and almost blind, now lives in his home in a small English village near London. It is therefore of the greatest justice and of the greatest opportunity the homage which was paid to him in 1999 by our CEMAR - The Lu=EDs de Albuquerque Center for the Studies of the Sea and Navigation, together with the "Associa=E7=E3o Fer= n=E3o Mendes Pinto", who conferred upon him the title of 'Honorary Member'. The patron of this association is the traveller Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, author of the extraordinary book "Peregrina=E7=E3o", the greatest Portuguese traveller= in the Far East - the same Far East which had in Professor Charles Ralph Boxer its greatest Historian. The work of Charles Ralph Boxer will live on for the future generations, when the echoes of all official Commemorations are gone. Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 =46ax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras =46ax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* D=C9SIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 01:38:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA08492 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:38:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA02361. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:37:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA02357 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:36:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA00517 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:36:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from seanet.com (ip-64-38-140-80.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.80]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA00413 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:36:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38D99321.759221A8@seanet.com> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:44:33 -0800 From: "Paul D. Buell" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Ferdinand Magellan References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Prof. Marques: thanks for all the highly useful information from one of my favorite cities in the world and one of the most beautiful university sites anywhere. And Charles Boxer has always been a great hero of mine. Paul D. Buell PS: the original form I gave for Magellan's name was just plain wrong; brain was asleep. Discard that comment. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 12:01:57 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA06252 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:01:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id MAA03359. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:00:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA03355 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:00:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from strauss.siteprotect.com [64.26.0.44] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA05324 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:00:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from Rene2 (10dyn34.delft.casema.net [212.64.17.34]) by strauss.siteprotect.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA10805 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:59:51 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.20000323092126.006b9720@maphist.nl> X-Sender: maphist@maphist.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:04:01 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Who can help him? Peter >X-Persona: >Return-Path: >From: GIOTONE@aol.com >Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:53:55 EST >Subject: (no subject) >To: pvdk@delftnet.nl > >I need to know if you happen to know Christopher Columbus mothers name, or >daughter 's name >Thank you, >Gio. > YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115 3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands e-mail: p.vanderkrogt@geog.uu.nl Fax +31 15 212 6063 More information: http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/ YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 12:10:19 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA06607 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:10:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id MAA03386. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:08:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA03382 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:08:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from f21.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.241.21] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA06530 (SMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:08:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 48244 invoked by uid 0); 23 Mar 2000 11:08:15 -0000 Message-ID: <20000323110815.48243.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 194.205.189.106 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:08:15 PST X-Originating-IP: [194.205.189.106] From: "Paddy Maguire" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:08:15 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Hi there, Just to let you know that I am consistently recieving e mails that are unrelated to research that i am doing! Is there anything you can do to stop this? Thanks Patrick Maguire >From: Peter van der Krogt >Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name >Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:04:01 +0100 > >Who can help him? > >Peter > > >X-Persona: > >Return-Path: > >From: GIOTONE@aol.com > >Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:53:55 EST > >Subject: (no subject) > >To: pvdk@delftnet.nl > > > >I need to know if you happen to know Christopher Columbus mothers name, >or > >daughter 's name > >Thank you, > >Gio. > > > >YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY >Dr Peter van der Krogt >Map Historian, Explokart Research Program >Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht >P.O. Box 80.115 >3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands >e-mail: p.vanderkrogt@geog.uu.nl >Fax +31 15 212 6063 >More information: http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/ >YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 12:53:10 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA08652 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:53:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id MAA03483. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:51:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA03479 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:51:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) id MAA06747. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:51:40 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200003231151.MAA06747@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:51:40 +0100 (MET) Cc: paddymaguire@hotmail.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Paddy Maguire wrote: > Just to let you know that I am consistently recieving e mails that are > unrelated to research that i am doing! Is there anything you can do to stop > this? Thanks Sure, just unsubscribe from the list. As the list manager I have now taken the steps to unsubscribe you, but anyone else who would not like to receive the mail on this list, can send an email to majordomo@win.tue.nl with the text 'unsubscribe discovery' (in the body). -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 8 12:31:30 2000 Received: from majordom@svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA16292 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:31:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id MAA28290. Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:26:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA28286 (ESMTP). Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:26:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id MAA03604. Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:26:38 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200003081126.MAA03604@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Ferdinand Magellan To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:26:38 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This message was sent to the list, but originally refused as a non-member submission. Ryan, I have subscribed you to the list. If you do not want to receive any more messages from the list, you can send an email to majordomo@win.tue.nl with the text 'unsubscribe discovery' in the body of the message. Of course the same holds for all other people on this list. ----- Forwarded message ----- I was wondering if you could answer a few of my questions. Was Magellan married?Any children? In the town where he grew up, What did people eat? Do for jobs? Do for fun? I fyou would please answer these questions as best as you could I would appreciate it. Thanks Ryan ----- End of forwarded message ----- -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 13:07:13 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA10136 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:07:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA03537. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:05:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA03533 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:05:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA02447 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:05:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA09214 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:05:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11777 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:05:31 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <38DA088B.3C648B38@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:05:31 +0100 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name References: <3.0.32.20000323092126.006b9720@maphist.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Peter van der Krogt wrote: > Who can help him? > > >I need to know if you happen to know Christopher Columbus mothers name, or > >daughter 's name > >Thank you, > >Gio. > > Columbus's mother was Susanna Fontanarossa. She might have been from the Swedish/Norwegian noble family Roos af Ervalla. Re: http://www.ifm.liu.se/~ulfry/Genealogy/Roos.html Many nobles supporting the wrong side in the struggles for the Scandianvian crown in the 13-1500's was forced to leave the country. Columbus might have been of the Norwegian Bonde family himself. When arriving Spain, Italy or other places they changed their names to fit the local traditions. Roos af Ervalla could have been turned to Fontanarossa and Colon means Bonde. The street where Columbus grew up in Genova housed many Norwegian refugees. Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 14:23:44 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA14914 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:23:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA03747. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:21:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA03743 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:21:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from fep03-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.202] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA02761 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:21:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from [194.65.180.90] by fep03-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000323132414.MQXY550.fep03-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.180.90]> for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:24:14 +0000 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000323092126.006b9720@maphist.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:25:59 +0000 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Peter van der Krogt: As far as we know (for those of us who accept the reasonable and well established theory of the birth of Columbus in Genoa... and don't embark in the fantasy theories, politically motivated, that want to make him a "secret agent" in disguise, or a noblemaan born in Galicia, Portugal, Corsica, England, Greece, etc. etc....), the man Christopher Columbus (called "Cristoforo Colombo" in Italian, "Crist=F3bal Col=F3n" in Spanish, Crist=F3vam Colom in old Portuguese, etc=8A) was the son of a Genoese man called Domenico Colombo and a Genoese woman called Susanna Fontanarossa. On Columbus origins (and birth controversies) we can see, for instance: BALLESTEROS Y BERETTA, Ant=F3nio, "Crist=F3bal Col=F3n y el Descubrimiento d= e Am=E9rica", in BALLESTEROS BERETTA, A. (ed.), Hist=F3ria de Am=E9rica y de l= os Pueblos Americanos, t. 4, t. 5, Barcelona, 1945. CARACI, Ilaria Luzzana, Colombo Vero e Falso. La Costruzione delle Historie =46ernandine, Genova: Sagep, 1989. HEERS, Jacques, Christophe Colomb, Paris: Hachette, 1981. MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, Portugal e o Descobrimento Europeu da Am=E9rica. Crist=F3v=E3o Colombo e os Portugueses, Lisboa: INCM, 1991 (eng. trans. Portugal and the European Discovery of America. Christopher Columbus and the Portuguese, Lisboa: INCM, 1992; deut. =FCb. Portugal und die Europ=E4isc= he Entdeckung Amerikas. Christoph Kolumbus und die Portugiesen, Lisboa: INCM, 1992; 2 ed. port. Lisboa: C=EDrculo de Leitores, 1992). MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, As Teorias Fantasiosas do Colombo "Portugu=EAs", Lisboa: Quetzal, 1991. MORALES PADR=D3N, Francisco, Crist=F3bal Col=F3n, Madrid: Anaya, 1988. TAVIANI, Paolo Emilio, Cristoforo Colombo. La Genesi della Grande Scoperta, 2 vol., Novara: Istituto Geografico De Agostini, 1974 (eng trans. Cristopher Columbus. The Grand Design, London: Orbis, 1985, trad esp. Crist=F3bal Col=F3n, Gen=E9sis del Grande Descubrimiento, 2 vol. Barcelona, = 1977). A more complete bibliography (indeed a very big one, due to the fact that a lot a people has always been spending rivers of ink on the Columbus matters=8A) can be found in my "Bibliografia Internacional dos Descobrimento= s e Encontros Ultramarinos - International Bibliography of the Discoveries and Overseas Encounters" (in the Internet at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm), namely in its sections: E.I.C.2.4.1. Christopher Columbus and his Discovery of America E.I.C.2.4.1.1. The Birth and the Life of Christopher Columbus Hope this can be useful Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 =46ax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras =46ax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* D=C9SIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 15:18:44 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA18213 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:18:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA03857. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:17:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA03853 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:17:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from fw-us-hou-1.bmc.com [198.207.223.250] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA18142 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:17:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from ec01-hou.bmc.com (ec01-hou.bmc.com [172.17.0.150]) by tangelo.bmc.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03188 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:17:01 -0600 (CST) Received: by ec01-hou.bmc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:17:00 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Cohen, Izzy" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: RE: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 06:36:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr his mother was Suzanna Fontanarossa, daughter of a wool weaver. [see = below] Soon after their son Diego was born in 1480 or 81, Columbus and Felipa = moved to the larger island of Madeira. It's believed that Columbus' wife died = soon thereafter.=20 This article does not mention a daughter of Christofer Columbus. izzy_cohen@bmc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *=20 http://www.millersv.edu/~columbus/columbus.html Christopher Columbus=20 by=20 Thomas C. Tirado, Ph.D.=20 Professor History=20 Millersville University=20 Introduction to Columbus:=20 Christopher Columbus (Crist=F3bal Col=F3n in Spanish, = Cristoforo Colombo in Italian) was born in 1451 in Genoa, Italy; he died in 1506 in Valladolid, Spain.=20 On October 12, 1492, two hitherto unknown worlds met on a = little island in the Caribbean Sea. While on a voyage of exploration for Spain in search of a direct sea route to the = Far East, Christopher Columbus unintentionally discovered the New World. In four different voyages to the Caribbean from 1492 = to 1504, the discoverer remained convinced, however, that he had found the lands that Marco Polo reached in his = overland travels to China at the end of the 13th century. To Columbus it was only a matter of time before a passage through = the Caribbean islands to the fabled cities of Cathay (China) and Cipango (Japan) was found. To the Europeans of this = age, all land east of the Indus River was "the Indies." Because he believed he had reached the Indies, Columbus named = the people "Indians." Other contemporary adventurers, however, were not convinced that this was part of the "Old" = World. The Florentine explorer Amerigo Vespucci, after whom the Americas are named, believed that this land was totally = unknown to the ancients.=20 Childhood and Early Years=20 Though biographical facts on Columbus vary from author to = author, there is general agreement among most scholars that Cristoforo Colombo was born in Genoa between August 25 and = October 31, 1451; that his father was Domenico Colombo, a wool weaver who was also involved in local politics; and that = his mother was Suzanna Fontanarossa, daughter of a wool weaver. The eldest of five children, Christopher would always = remain closest to his brother Bartolomeo. The two brothers shared a lot in common; they studied cartography together, sold books, and planned for a trip to the west; and they traveled to the New World together. Another brother, Giovanni Pellegrino, died young; his sister, Bianchinetta, married a cheesemonger. His youngest brother Giacomo was seventeen years = his junior. The entire family moved to Savona, west of Genoa, in 1470.=20 Although it is not known how much formal training Columbus = received as a child, Italian craft guilds did offer a rudimentary level of reading and writing in their schools. As a boy and a = young man, Christopher joined his father in the family business of wool processing and selling. He may have worked as = a clerk in a Genoese bookshop as well. At a time when it was generally expected that sons follow their fathers in the = family business, it was, nevertheless, natural for them to turn to the seas for a career. Like so many other young men growing up = in a major sea port, Columbus began a life of seafaring in his early teens.=20 Like any new apprentice entering the profession at age 14, = Columbus served as a messenger, ship's boy, common sailor, and, perhaps, even as a 21-year old privateer. Although most historians doubt that the trip took place, his son Fernando stated in History of the Life and Deeds of Christopher Columbus = that in 1472, Columbus was given command of a ship on a privateering expedition to Tunis. In a lost letter, = Columbus is supposed to have related to his son how he had been commissioned by Ren=E9 d'Anjou, the French pretender to the = throne of Naples, to make a surprise attack on a large Spanish galleon sailing off the coast of North Africa. Not in = doubt is the hostility that had erupted between Ren=E9 and the House of Aragon in Spain over the throne. Nor is it in question = that Genoa entered the conflict against Spain. It was quite natural for the Genoese merchants to come to the aid of their = allies the Angevins. What most historians doubt, however, is that Columbus ever received command of the expedition.=20 Much more credible, however, is a subsequent expedition. In = 1474 Columbus was hired as an ordinary sailor on a Mediterranean ship bound for Chios in the Aegean Sea. This was = his first long voyage and must have proved profitable since he gained economic independence from his family. Except = for a brief return to make plans for his next adventure, never again would Columbus return to Savona to live. As Genoa retreated to the background so did his association with his family's wool weaving business. Columbus spent a year in = Chios and could hardly have remained immune to the political, commercial, and religious turmoil throughout the = area. The Greek islands were within the sphere of influence of Constantinople, which had fallen twenty years earlier to the = Turks. The great irony is that his trip to the Aegean island brought him the closest he would ever get to Asia.=20 On August 13, 1476, a Genoese commercial expedition of five = ships bound for England gave Columbus his first opportunity to leave the Mediterranean Sea and sail into the Atlantic Ocean. But it was an inauspicious beginning for a man who would become Admiral of the Ocean Seas. Having passed through the Straits of Gibraltar without incident, the entire fleet came under attack by French privateers off the = Cape of St. Vincent. Both sides lost ships; Columbus, one of the unfortunate ones whose ship was burned, had no escape other = than to swim to shore. That he survived, his son boasted, was "because he was a prodigious swimmer." Six miles = from shore, he made it to land by clinging to wreckage. After regaining his strength in the Port of Lagos, without = money or position, Columbus made his way to Lisbon's large Genoese community of merchants and shipbuilders. He was = twenty-five years old.=20 By 1477 Columbus resided in Lisbon. To someone born and raised = in a Mediterranean sea port, his new home must have seemed magical, alive with anticipation. Sitting at the mouth = of the Tagus River, Lisbon's rhythm was that of the crashing ocean at its doorstep. Thrusting into the Atlantic, facing = water on two sides, Portugal had become a center for maritime activity. Since the time of Prince Henry the Navigator's explorations down the coast of Africa, Lisbon was a haven for explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs, merchants and any others = who saw their fortunes tied to the trade winds and ocean currents. Soon Columbus' brother Bartolomeo would be in Lisbon, as well, working as a mapmaker and studying geography. At times, the brothers worked side-by-side as = draftsmen in the map-making business and as book collectors.=20 In a land of opportunities, Columbus received his first = commission soon after he arrived in Lisbon. Sailing for Italian merchants in 1477, Columbus set sail on a convoy loaded with = goods for sale in northern Atlantic ports. Included in his ports of call was Iceland, called Ultima Thule by the ancients = who believed it marked the end of the world. Other voyages followed, but Columbus did find the time to meet and marry = Felipa Perestrello e Moniz. Though the father, Bartolomeo Perestrello, was already deceased by the time Columbus and = Felipa met, the Perestrellos were a respected, though relatively poor, noble family. Being a hereditary governor = appointed originally by Prince Henry to Porto Santo in the Madeiras Islands, Bartolomeo had been himself a man of the sea = whose family had arrived in Portugal from Italy a century earlier. Soon after their marriage in 1478 or 79, the newlyweds accompanied the rest of the family back to Porto Santo where Felipa's oldest brother took over the governorship. Soon = after their son Diego was born in 1480 or 81, Columbus and Felipa moved to the larger island of Madeira. It's believed = that Columbus' wife died soon thereafter.=20 The next few years are filled with other voyages and more book learning. In late 1481 or early 1482, Columbus sailed to the new Portuguese fortress of El Mina on the Guinea coast. Believing in error that El Mina was south of the Equator, Columbus was impressed with the riches Africa had to offer, especially gold. Like all good navigators, Columbus was eager to learn about wind and ocean currents from the local = pilots and sailors. Some historians believe that in these waters off the coast of Africa and the nearby Canary Islands, Columbus observed for himself the ocean phenomenon known as the Canary Current. Knowledge of a fast moving river = of water in the ocean running from the Canaries to the Bahamas could very well have been the reason that Columbus = chose to start his crossing of the Atlantic in the latitude of the Canaries, far south of Iberia.=20 The Enterprise of the Indies:=20 The experience of these years led directly to the genesis of = his plan to reach the east by going west, what he called his "Enterprise of the Indies." Some time between when he arrived = in Portugal to when he appeared before the Portuguese king John II in 1484, Columbus devised a fairly complete plan = for sailing west to the Indies. Inspiration came from a number of sources, but clearly Columbus had many life experiences that related directly to his future voyages of discovery. As mentioned above, his marriage to Felipa Perestrello e Moniz, = whose family belonged to the Portuguese nobility, gave Columbus access not only to the Portuguese court and the king = but also to the extensive collection of maps and papers of Felipa's father. Though relatively poor, the family still had connections at court. Columbus apparently gained access to the papers of the deceased former governor and found a wealth of information including maps, charts revealing ocean currents, personal interviews with sailors, and stories about objects that drifted to the coast of the little island from the west. How impressed Columbus must have been when the governor's widow handed over the journals and charts of a man who had sailed for the legendary Prince Henry the Navigator. If = he had not thought of it before, living on a island far out in the ocean gave Columbus reason to think that sea exploration = further west was possible. It was here that his "Enterprise of the Indies" began to mature.=20 Other important activities that contributed to the formation of = his Enterprise were his association with the Genoese community in Portugal as well as his employment with Italian = and Portuguese merchants. Both furthered his knowledge of the Atlantic waters, and his trips to Africa brought him close = to the Canary Islands and knowledge of the Canary Current. Others have suggested, however, that it was because Marco Polo = had placed the land of the great Khan on the same parallel as the Canary Islands that Columbus chose to sail from = that location.=20 Other voyages by Columbus brought him into the northern = Atlantic as well. Stops in England, Iceland, Ireland and other northern lands may have put Columbus in contact with people = whose remembered history included knowledge of lands west of Iceland. Although the Viking sagas never became a = part of the knowledge base of Medieval Europeans, it is believed that their encounter with one island after another = across the northern Atlantic was the reason that sailors and cartographers believed that the entire Atlantic was strewn with islands. Columbus' genius was his remarkable ability to gather information from around the Mediterranean and the = Atlantic, combining his real life experiences with ancient theories from his books in a way that few navigators were able = to do. It was as if he could plug himself into the local knowledge base and draw out information.=20 But there was more at work than his own seafaring experiences. Columbus' idea of sailing west to get to the east was not original with him, nor did he ever claim that it was. Columbus = drew upon the science and knowledge accumulated over millennia. Since antiquity there had been theories that held = that earth was spherical in shape. In Greek and Roman times, for example, cosmographers theorized that there was only one = body of water on the surface of the Earth that connected both Europe and Asia. If so, one could, theoretically, sail = from the west to get to the east. Only the distance was in dispute. The awakening of Medieval Europe began with Ptolemy (Claudius Ptolemaeus) and the appearance of his unique map of the world in the 2nd century AD, essentially a map of the known world during Roman times. There was renewed interest in Ptolemy in the 15th century after the Florentine publication of = a Latin translation of his Geography. To Ptolemy the ocean surrounding the known lands of the world was unnavigable; the Portuguese, among others, were unwilling to accept an infinite ocean. Columbus, too, rejected the idea of an = unlimited, boundless ocean. But on the other hand, he accepted willingly other Ptolemaic geographical configurations. To = Columbus, Ptolemy meant simply that one could get to the other side of the world by going west, that the two distant coasts = had a common ocean sea.=20 During the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages little energy was = spent on such speculation. Other issues, like survival, were more pressing. At the end of the Middle Ages, however, the old theory of one ocean had been resurrected. In particular, the aged cosmographer-physician Paolo del Pozzo Toscanelli of Florence believed that one could reach the East by sea in little more than 3000 miles. Since Toscanelli was in communication with the Portuguese in the late 1470s, it is believed that this information ultimately made its way to Columbus. Both Father las Casas, who wrote The History of the Indies, and his son Fernando indicate that there had been = correspondence between Columbus and Toscanelli.=20 Finally, it should be mentioned that Columbus had managed to = collect a large number of books over the years; a few of them in particular left a deep impression. Without a doubt, the Bible was a great source of inspiration to Columbus. He drew heavily from it and took his name, "Christ Bearer," = seriously, believing, in fact, that he had a divine mission to accomplish. Influencing Columbus' developing image of the globe = were Pope Pius II's Historia Rerum ubique Gestarum, published in 1477 when he was still a cardinal, Cardinal Pierre d'Ailly's Imago Mundi published in the early 1480s while rector of the Sorbonne, and The Travels of Marco Polo, written = in 1298 after Marco Polo's return from his travels to the Mongol Empire in the 13th century. Also in Columbus' library = were Pliny's Natural History and Plutarch's Lives.=20 After eight years of experience sailing in Atlantic waters for Italian and Portuguese merchants, and access to the learned scholarship of his day, Columbus was certain that one could = reach the Far East by sailing westward.=20 -----Original Message----- From: Peter van der Krogt [mailto:peter@maphist.nl] Sent: Thursday, 23 Mar 2000 13:04 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name Who can help him? Peter >X-Persona: >Return-Path: >From: GIOTONE@aol.com >Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:53:55 EST >Subject: (no subject) >To: pvdk@delftnet.nl > >I need to know if you happen to know Christopher Columbus mothers = name, or=20 >daughter 's name >Thank you, >Gio. > YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115 3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands e-mail: p.vanderkrogt@geog.uu.nl Fax +31 15 212 6063 More information: http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/ YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 15:21:00 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA18523 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:21:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA03865. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:19:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA03861 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:19:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA03024 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:19:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA12063 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:19:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28449 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:19:22 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <38DA27EA.91CBB07D@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:19:22 +0100 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" wrote: > the man Christopher Columbus > (called "Cristoforo Colombo" in Italian, "Cristóbal Colón" in Spanish, > Cristóvam Colom in old Portuguese, etcS) was the son of a Genoese man > called Domenico Colombo and a Genoese woman called Susanna Fontanarossa. Yes, he grew up in Genova, but why couldn't he speak Italian properly ? Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 15:29:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA18925 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:29:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA03920. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:27:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA03916 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:27:42 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id PAA07261. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:27:41 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200003231427.PAA07261@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name In-Reply-To: from "Cohen, Izzy" at "Mar 23, 2000 6:36:51 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:27:41 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Cohen, Izzy wrote: > Soon after their son Diego was born in 1480 or 81, Columbus and Felipa moved > > to the larger island of Madeira. It's believed that Columbus' wife died soon > > thereafter. According to Morison, Dona Felipa died in Lisbon in 1485. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 13:30:50 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA11327 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:30:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA03625. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:29:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA03621 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:29:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from prometeo.activanet.es [194.224.200.8] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA11164 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:29:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from dmartin (info204.activanet.es [194.224.200.204]) by prometeo.activanet.es (8.9.3+3.2W/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA00764 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:28:59 +0100 Message-ID: <002a01bf94c3$7043fa60$ccc8e0c2@dmartin> From: "DENISE MARTIN" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:29:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Hi there... the problem at this end is that I am receiving several copies of each email sent out ... over a couple of days .. It sometimes causes a traffic jam in my InBox. Denise Martin, Spain. -----Original Message----- From: Andre Engels To: discovery@win.tue.nl Cc: paddymaguire@hotmail.com Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name >Paddy Maguire wrote: > >> Just to let you know that I am consistently recieving e mails that are >> unrelated to research that i am doing! Is there anything you can do to stop >> this? Thanks > >Sure, just unsubscribe from the list. As the list manager I have now taken >the steps to unsubscribe you, but anyone else who would not like to receive >the mail on this list, can send an email to majordomo@win.tue.nl with the >text 'unsubscribe discovery' (in the body). > > >-- >Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 >http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > >A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. > - Maria Montessori > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 15:31:57 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA19098 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:31:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA03929. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:30:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA03925 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:30:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id PAA07276. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:30:26 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200003231430.PAA07276@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name In-Reply-To: <38DA27EA.91CBB07D@eto.ericsson.se> from Geir Odden at "Mar 23, 2000 3:19:22 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:30:25 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Geir Odden wrote: > Yes, he grew up in Genova, but why couldn't he speak Italian properly ? Any evidence for that? He seems to have spoken fluent Castilian, but I have seen no evidence either way regarding his Italian. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 15:36:11 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA19277 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:36:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA03940. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:34:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA03936 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:34:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@datacomm.iue.it [149.139.6.101] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA03187 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:34:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from datacomm.iue.it (lafond.iue.it [149.139.8.29]) by datacomm.iue.it (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA05357 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:34:49 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <38DA2B42.C36564E0@datacomm.iue.it> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:33:38 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?I=F1aki=20L=F3pez=20Mart=EDn?= Organization: RSC-IUE X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr-FR,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B7D47D3C94F06E6CA6EEFD73" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B7D47D3C94F06E6CA6EEFD73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Alfredo for bringing a little bit of common sense to the discussion. Best --------------B7D47D3C94F06E6CA6EEFD73 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="imartin.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Iñaki López Martín Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="imartin.vcf" begin:vcard n:LOPEZ-MARTIN;Iñaki tel;fax:+ 39 055 4685 771 tel;work:+ 39 055 4685 723 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:In-house Academic Publications and Web Assistant;Robert Schuman Centre for Advanced Studies version:2.1 email;internet:imartin@datacomm.iue.it title:Iñaki LOPEZ MARTIN adr;quoted-printable:;;European University Institute=0D=0AVia dei Roccetini, 9=0D=0A(Convento);I-50016 San Domenico di Fiesole (FI);Italy;; end:vcard --------------B7D47D3C94F06E6CA6EEFD73-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 15:50:45 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA20143 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:50:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA03983. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:49:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA03979 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:49:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.6] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA19994 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:48:57 +0100 (MET) From: Snakerog@aol.com Received: from Snakerog@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id l.4.1f6d289 (4158) for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:48:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4.1f6d289.260b88b7@aol.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:48:23 EST Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 67 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Her name was Mrs. Columbus. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 17:17:07 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA26371 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:17:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA04117. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:15:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA04113 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:15:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from mercurio.feedback.net.ar [200.16.157.8] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA03737 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:15:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from [200.41.172.198] (star310.feedback.net.ar [200.41.172.198]) by mail.feedback.net.ar (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA23630 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:20:25 -0300 Message-Id: <200003231620.NAA23630@mail.feedback.net.ar> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:17:49 -0300 Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name From: "Fabian Martin" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Mr. Odden: Perhaps (perhaps) if he couldn't speak italian fluently (and I don't know i= f that was his case) was because, if he grew up in Genova he might have been more accustomed to the Genova dialect, wich still is quite different from "regular" Italian (and was more different at those times). At those years, many regions of Italy have their own dialects (and in some case they are almost a totally different language), as Venetian, Sicilian, Piamontese, etcetera. Best regards -- Fabian Martin ---------- >From: Geir Odden >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name >Date: Thu, Mar 23, 2000, 11:19 AM > > "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" wrote: > >> the man Christopher Columbus >> (called "Cristoforo Colombo" in Italian, "Crist=F3bal Col=F3n" in Spanish, >> Crist=F3vam Colom in old Portuguese, etcS) was the son of a Genoese man >> called Domenico Colombo and a Genoese woman called Susanna Fontanarossa. > > Yes, he grew up in Genova, but why couldn't he speak Italian properly ? > > Geir Odden > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 19:19:30 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA01695 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:19:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA04285. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:17:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA04281 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:17:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from smtp1.libero.it [193.70.192.51] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA04137 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:17:49 +0100 (MET) From: ventifebbraio@iol.it Received: from q2h1u7 (151.15.25.5) by smtp1.libero.it; 23 Mar 2000 19:17:03 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000323191335.007bc340@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: ventifebbraio/popmail.iol.it@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:13:35 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Well, Colombo could not speak a proper Italian for the very simple fact that there was no such a language yet. As a matter of fact, until well into the 1900s Italians have spoken a large number of languages, other than Italian (which is a direct descendent of Tuscanian plus a large in-seed of Roman). Still today, it is far from uncommon to walk through villages and towns all over the country and hear not a word of the official national language. And that does not happen in poor, socially behind, environments only. I myself have quite a few friends with whom conversation takes place in our native language only, and I live just north of Milan, in a city which can count on the third-lowest unemployment rate in the country and on a record-high bank/residents ratio in Italy. =20 Franco Cavalleri=20 At 15.19 23/03/00 +0100, you wrote: >"Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" wrote: > >> the man Christopher Columbus >> (called "Cristoforo Colombo" in Italian, "Crist=F3bal Col=F3n" in= Spanish, >> Crist=F3vam Colom in old Portuguese, etcS) was the son of a Genoese man >> called Domenico Colombo and a Genoese woman called Susanna Fontanarossa. > >Yes, he grew up in Genova, but why couldn't he speak Italian properly ? > >Geir Odden > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 23 19:39:08 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA02146 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:39:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA04328. Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:37:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA04324 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:37:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA04204 (ESMTP). Thu, 23 Mar 2000 19:37:32 +0100 (MET) From: SSavage846@aol.com Received: from SSavage846@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id l.34.2e696ab (3984) for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:36:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34.2e696ab.260bbe48@aol.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:36:56 EST Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 66 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO In a message dated 3/23/00 6:21:52 PM, ventifebbraio@iol.it writes: << Well, Colombo could not speak a proper Italian for the very simple fact that there was no such a language yet. As a matter of fact, until well into the 1900s Italians have spoken a large number of languages, other than Italian (which is a direct descendent of Tuscanian plus a large in-seed of Roman). Still today, it is far from uncommon to walk through villages and towns all over the country and hear not a word of the official national language. And that does not happen in poor, socially behind, environments only. I myself have quite a few friends with whom conversation takes place in our native language only, and I live just north of Milan, in a city which can count on the third-lowest unemployment rate in the country and on a record-high bank/residents ratio in Italy. >> Thanks for the infromation. That's very interesting. I never new that begfore. Stephen From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Mar 24 03:25:41 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA24042 (ESMTP). Fri, 24 Mar 2000 03:25:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id DAA05000. Fri, 24 Mar 2000 03:23:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA04996 (ESMTP). Fri, 24 Mar 2000 03:23:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA05610 (ESMTP). Fri, 24 Mar 2000 03:23:17 +0100 (MET) From: ExJournal@aol.com Received: from ExJournal@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id l.aa.2dcb927 (4391) for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:22:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:22:40 EST Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 66 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO What we call Italy today, did not come into existence until perhaps 140 years ago. Languages spoken throughout what we today call ITALY varied all over the lot, producing an amazing collection of patois, dialects and in fact expressed languages since the collapse of the Empire. Is there one of us today who understands, and can articulate this variety with any accuracy over the last six or seven centuries, much less tha whole span? Carl Schuster From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Mar 24 05:43:44 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA28417 (ESMTP). Fri, 24 Mar 2000 05:43:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA05103. Fri, 24 Mar 2000 05:42:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA05099 (ESMTP). Fri, 24 Mar 2000 05:42:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from f206.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.206] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA28390 (SMTP). Fri, 24 Mar 2000 05:41:58 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 6799 invoked by uid 0); 24 Mar 2000 04:41:26 -0000 Message-ID: <20000324044126.6798.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 63.26.193.232 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 20:41:26 PST X-Originating-IP: [63.26.193.232] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] CC's Language Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 20:41:26 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >Yes, he grew up in Genova, but why couldn't he speak Italian properly ? I do not recall any writings from the fifteenth or sixteenth centuries suggesting that Columbus could not SPEAK Italian (or Ligurian). There are, however, references to his not being able to WRITE in Ligurian-Italian, which is not unusual because he really did not learn to read and write until after he arrived in Portugal in the 1470s as a young adult. There he learned to speak Portuguese and Castilian. These were the more-or-less official languages for transacting government business in the nations of Iberia (Portugal, Castile, Aragon, Navarre, etc.). His written language is an interesting cosmopolitan mixture of Mediterranean Romance languages and is a precursor to modern Spanish in that it had many Portuguese-isms that were later incorporated into Spanish in the sixteenth century. I cannot seem to put my hands on the several references to his thinking language, writing language, and reading language, except the following: Milani, Virgil I. "Itaicisms in Christopher Columbus' First American Bulletin." Forum Italicum 2 (no. 1, March 1968): 40-43. Greg McIntosh ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Mar 24 12:21:46 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA16376 (ESMTP). Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:21:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id MAA05646. Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:19:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA05642 (ESMTP). Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:19:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from fw-us-hou-2.bmc.com [198.207.223.251] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA07140 (ESMTP). Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:19:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from ec01-hou.bmc.com (ec01-hou.bmc.com [172.17.0.150]) by tangelo.bmc.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA20932; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 05:19:27 -0600 (CST) Received: by ec01-hou.bmc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 05:19:27 -0600 Message-ID: From: "Cohen, Izzy" To: Wordplay-L@levels.unisa.edu.au, discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] The 51 Pithas of Parvati Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 05:19:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Sharath -- I'm glad you're here. I want to pick your brain. Specifically, I wonder if the 51 Pithas of Parvati fell to earth so as to form a coherent (anatomically correct) body on the ground? I have reconstructed anthropomorphic body-part maps in the mid East (Hermes?) and north Africa (Aphrodite?). I think the names were given by Phoenician explorers. Perhaps the Phoenicians learned the concept of body-part maps from Hindu (or Buddhist) geographers. The question remains: did these "maps" actually exist in antiquity? I'll send you a copy of the Hermes & Aphrodite maps in a separate email. Hope you can "place" all of the parts listed in the URL below on the map and determine if they form a "body". If so, what is the "lay of the land". That is, what shape / form / configuration does this body have on the subcontinent? The shape may include "bodies of water". Thanks, Israel Cohen izzy_cohen@bmc.com http://www.allindiaguide.com/gplaces/pilgrim/pithas.asp The 51 Pithas of Parvati When Sati, the wife of Shiva and the first incarnation of Parvati, sacrificed herself at a yagna being performed by her father the King Daksha; a very distraught Shiva started dancing with her body. The world was terrorized from this Tandava Nritya and to stop the devastating penance, Vishnu used his Sudarshan chakra (the whirling knife on his finger tip) and completely cut up Sati's body in several pieces. Wherever her body parts fell, a temple was erected to commemorate different manifestations of Shiva and Parvati and became a Hindu pilgrimage. They are called Pitha or Sakti Pithas. These temples are scattered from present day Pakistan to India to Sri Lanka to Bangladesh. Sati is also called Devi or Shakti (Strength). Sati was reborn later as the daughter of the King of Mountains the Himalayas and hence she was called Parvati or the daughter of Parvat (Mountain). Parvati married Shiva on the fourteenth day of the rising moon (Sukla pakcha) in the month of Margashirsha (around Spring) which is the festival of Shiva Ratri (the night of Shiva). From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Mar 24 16:41:27 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA29887 (ESMTP). Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:41:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA06068. Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:38:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA06064 (ESMTP). Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:38:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA08162 (ESMTP). Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:38:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA00239 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:38:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23673 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:38:12 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <38DB8BE4.63910CDE@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:38:12 +0100 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] CC's Language References: <20000324044126.6798.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Gregory McIntosh wrote: > I do not recall any writings from the fifteenth or sixteenth centuries > suggesting that Columbus could not SPEAK Italian (or Ligurian). There are, > however, references to his not being able to WRITE in Ligurian-Italian, > which is not unusual because he really did not learn to read and write until > after he arrived in Portugal in the 1470s as a young adult. How do we know that he did not learn to read and write until after he arrived Portugal in the 1470's ? Is it true that Fernando Colon in his book says: The meaning of our familyname is farmer in another language. The latin interpretion of our familyname is Colunus. ? In Norwegian Colunus means Bondi or Bonde. Karl Knutsson Bonde fought for the Swedish and Norwegian crowns for many years. He was Swedish king for three periods and Norwegian king in one period. Re: http://www.utb.boras.se/uk/se/projekt/history/articles/kalmar/kalmar9.htm In the book: Christopher Columbus : - en europeer fra Norge?__Sannes, Tor Borch__ Oslo_ _Norsk maritimt forl. , cop. 1991__235p__ISBN: 82-90319-12-6 the author says Christopher's father Domenico was closely related to Karl Knutsson Bonde. He was suposed to have come from the Bonde family in Nordfjord, Norway. The coat of arms of the Norfjord Bonde family is an beam like the one used by Christopher and his brothers. The shield on the top of the arm has an cross. There are paintings of the arms in the book. Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 27 01:05:06 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA02293 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:05:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA05249. Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:01:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA05245 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:01:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fep03-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.202] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA14075 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:01:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [194.65.204.185] ([194.65.180.82]) by fep03-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000326230324.CZUV550.fep03-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.204.185]> for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:03:24 +0100 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:01:06 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] Re: Columbus' language, etc. Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" wrote: > the man Christopher Columbus > (called "Cristoforo Colombo" in Italian, "Crist=F3bal Col=F3n" in Spanish, > Crist=F3vam Colom in old Portuguese, etcS) was the son of a Genoese man > called Domenico Colombo and a Genoese woman called Susanna =46ontanarossa. > Yes, he grew up in Genova, but why couldn't he speak Italian properly ? > Geir Odden The recent messages by Carl Schuster, Gregory Macintosh, Andre Engels, =46ranco Cavalleri, Fabian Martin, and others, have answered the question addressed to me by Geir Odden. I would not say it differently, for I too am convinced that the man only could speak (hardly 'speak'... and certainly 'not write'...) in ancient Ligurian (Genoese)... Later, the Portuguese language must have been learnt in Portugal (1476 ? - 1485 ?) and the Castilian language must have been learnt in Portugal and in Castille (1485 ? - 1506). And I am convinced that Columbus' cultural background and his knowledge of ancient authors (the sentences written in the books by his own hand, etc.) must have been a-posteriori realities... (smaller and fewer than most people think... and, most of all, dating from later periods, from 1496-1498 and 1500-150... not dating from the time when he was preparing his project, but, on the contrary, dating from the time when he was preparing himself to justify it a-posteriori... or to justify his failure...). But... in all these matters, dealing with Columbus... who knows...? The debates about Columbus' origins, his family, his name, his signature, his language, his political role, etc., have been in Portugal very fierce (and, unfortunately, very biased, non-academical and bad-tempered...) during the years 1990-1992 (in the eve and during the Columbus 92 international celebrations, held by the Spaniards, the Italians, etc., in Seville, Genoa, etc.). At that time, following my teacher Professor Luis de Albuquerque (who died in the meantime, in 1992), I participated in these debates with some books and articles of mine, published during these years 1990-1992, trying to address myself to the important Portuguese influence on Columbus but refusing the unacceptable and non-scholarly theories (many times very silly theories... politically motivated by right-wing and conservative circles...) which wanted to make him a "Portuguese secret agent" in disguise to fool the Spaniards, etc.... My position at that time had the result for me to be considered by many, in Portugal, as a traitor who was 'giving our Columbus to the Italians' (!), a traitor to my country... an agent of the Genoese and the Italians... a communist historian (together with my teacher Luis de Albuquerque), and things like that... A very silly affair... But this was only the beginning, and it would later be worse, for in the next years (from 1994 onwards), since in Portugal I began more seriously refusing the myths of "Prince Henry the Navigator" and calling attention to the long forgotten and silenced importance of Prince Peter to the Geographical Discoveries, I definitely turned out to be an 'accursed author'... silenced and persecuted by the censorship of almost everybody, including the Portuguese official commemorators, State commissions, etc. My books and articles devoted to Columbus during these years are the folowing: MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, Portugal e o Descobrimento Europeu da Am=E9rica. Crist=F3v=E3o Colombo e os Portugueses, Lisboa: INCM, 1991 (eng. trans. Portugal and the European Discovery of America. Christopher Columbus and the Portuguese, Lisboa: INCM, 1992; deut. =FCb. Portugal und die Europ=E4ische Entdeckung Amerikas. Christoph Kolumbus und die Portugiesen, Lisboa: INCM, 1992; 2 ed. port. Lisboa: C=EDrculo de Leitores, 1992). MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, "Os Objectivos e as Teses deste Livro", in Portugal e o Descobrimento Europeu da Am=E9rica. Crist=F3v=E3o Colombo e os Portugueses, 2 ed., Lisboa: C=EDrculo de Leitores, 1992. MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, As Teorias Fantasiosas do Colombo 'Portugu=EAs', Lisboa: Quetzal, 1991. MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, "Os Antecedentes Portugueses das Viagens de Crist=F3v=E3o Colombo. Tentativa de Sistematiza=E7=E3o e Aprecia=E7=E3o Cr= =EDtica", in Actas do III Col=F3quio Internacional de Hist=F3ria da Madeira (Porto Santo - Funchal, 1992), Funchal: CEHA, 1993, 121-141. MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, "Crist=F3v=E3o Colombo e Portugal. O Projecto Ocidental e a sua Recusa pelos Portugueses", in Congreso de Historia del Descubrimiento. Actas, vol. I, Madrid: Real Academia de la Historia, 1992, 57-76. MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, "Crist=F3v=E3o Colombo e as Informa=E7=F5es de Ru= i de Pina a seu Respeito", Biblos. Revista da Faculdade de Letras da Universidade de Coimbra, Coimbra: FLUC, 1992, vol. LXVIII (Homenagem a Am=E9rico da Costa Ramalho), 357-364. MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, "O Sucesso de Vasco da Gama e a Desgra=E7a de Crist=F3v=E3o Colombo", in CARABIAS TORRES, Ana Maria (ed.), Las Relaciones entre Portugal y Castilla en la Epoca de los Descubrimientos y la Expansion Colonial. Actas del Congresso Hispano-Portugu=EAs (Salamanca, 1992), Salamanca: Universidad de Salamanca - Sociedad V Centen=E1rio del Tratado de Tordesillas, 1994, 181-194 (reed Biblos. Revista da =46aculdade de Letras da Universidade de Coimbra, Coimbra: FLUC, 1994, vol. LXX, 119-137). MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, "Epilogue: Triumph for Da Gama and Disgrace for Columbus" in WINIUS, George (ed.) Portugal: the Pathfinder. Journeys from the Medieval toward the Modern World. 1300-ca.1600, Madison: Luso-Brazilian Review-University of Wisconsin, 1995, 363-372. As I said in a previous message to this discussion group, extensive bibliographical lists on the issues of Columbus -- his voyages, his origins (the so-called 'nationality', etc., including the books and articles with fantasy theories and their refutations) -- can be found in my Bibliography of the Discoveries (http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm), in the Columbus sections. There is an author who dealt specifically with the issue of the language: MENENDEZ-PIDAL, Ramon, "Como Hablaba Col=F3n?", Revista Cubana, La Habana, 1940, n. XIV, 5-18. MENENDEZ-PIDAL, Ramon, La Lengua de Cristob=E1l Col=F3n, Buenos Aires, 1942. More recently, there is: VARELA, Consuelo (ed.), Cristobal Col=F3n. Textos y Documentos Completos, Madrid: Alianza, 1982. Now, for the purpose of illustrating my opinion on this long-going debate, I can only enclose here the text of some pages taken from my book As Teorias Fantasiosas do Colombo 'Portugues' [The Fantasy Theories of the 'Portuguese' Columbus] (Lisbon: Quetzal, 1991). But I'm afraid these pages are in Portuguese... Sorry... Here goes (pages 9-22): (...) INTRODU=C7=C3O A UMA POL=C9MICA Todos os aspectos da biografia de Cristov=E3o Colombo t=EAm feito correr "rios de tinta", no sentido literal das palavras. A bibliografia publicada sobre o navegador =E9 imensa, e nela se cruzam opini=F5es d=EDspares e discuss=F5es cont=EDnuas, levando a controv=E9rsias que muitas vezes se t=EAm tornado azedas e mal-educadas. Nestas disputas t=EAm entrado toda a esp=E9cie de preconceitos - nacionais, pessoais, de escola, etc. Assim sendo, =E9 f=E1cil de compreender que os mist=E9rios colombinos sempre tenham inspirado n=E3o somente os historiadores mas tamb=E9m os romancistas (e, pior ainda: os romancistas disfar=E7ados de historiadores). Como ainda h=E1 algum tempo escrevia um especialista espanhol: a verdade =E9 que sobre Colombo nada mais resta para inventar. Seja o que f=F4r que se possa imaginar, j=E1 foi dito=8A E =E9 um facto que j=E1 lhe foram atribu=EDdas praticamente todas as nacionalidades poss=EDveis. At=E9 j=E1 foi considerado b=FAlgaro ou dinamarqu=EAs! Parece que at=E9 j=E1 houve quem afirmasse que ele seria uma mulher disfar=E7ada=8A Tamb=E9m em Portugal, desde o princ=EDpio deste s=E9culo, t=EAm sido avan=E7= adas teorias fantasiosas acerca de Colombo e da sua rela=E7=E3o com o nosso pa=EDs, trazendo especula=E7=F5es sobre a poss=EDvel nacionalidade= portuguesa - semelhantes a tantas outras teses desenvolvidas noutros pa=EDses, tentando chamar a si o ber=E7o do navegador.=20 Trata-se de especula=E7=F5es de autores sem forma=E7=E3o historiogr=E1fica, = mais ou menos bem intencionados e mais ou menos desqualificados, que sobre Colombo quiseram avan=E7ar fr=E1geis teorias, baseados em coisas como argumentos cabal=EDsticos. N=E3o poder=E3o de maneira nenhuma estas teses se= r vistas como ilustrativas da historiografia portuguesa, pois os seus autores n=E3o utilizam minimamente uma metodologia cient=EDfica, e se tudo isso fosse considerado como s=E9rio s=F3 da=ED resultaria descr=E9dito para = a cultura do nosso pa=EDs. Claro que Colombo tem uma grande rela=E7=E3o com Portugal, e s=F3 pode ser compreendido se for integrado no contexto das navega=E7=F5es atl=E2nticas qu= e os Portugueses haviam iniciado. O genov=EAs saiu de Portugal, onde havia vivido e se havia formado, e fez o seu descobrimento de 1492 ao servi=E7o de Castela devido =E0 recusa portuguesa em aceitar o seu plano e devido =E0 rivalidade ent=E3o existente entre os dois reinos peninsulares. Crist=F3v=E3o Colombo deve ser visto como integrado no seu contexto portugu=EAs e peninsular, que verdadeiramente explica o homem e a dimens=E3o da sua aventura. Deve ser apresentado como aquilo que =E9: um navegador genov=EAs que aprendeu com a nova n=E1utica atl=E2ntica que os Portugueses vinham a desenvolver bem antes da sua chegada =E0 Pen=EDnsula, j=E1 desde os princ=EDpios do s=E9culo. As rela=E7=F5es privilegiadas entre Portugal e G=E9nova eram de resto uma constante, datando j=E1 de h=E1 cerca de dois s=E9culos antes. Colombo veio muito novo para Portugal, que ent=E3o era o centro das navega=E7=F5es atl=E2nticas de alto mar. Aqui se formou como homem e como navegador, e aqui viveu na idade adulta, aperfei=E7oando os conhecimentos n=E1uticos que j=E1 traria do Mediterr=E2neo e aprendendo com os Portugueses o que chegou a efectivamente saber de conhecimentos pr=E1ticos da nova n=E1utica atl=E2ntica, com os quais equilibrou os seus conhecimentos livrescos. A sua forma=E7=E3o portuguesa era t=E3o marcante que a pr=F3pria l=EDngua qu= e falava e escrevia era uma mistura do portugu=EAs com o seu dialecto natal genov=EAs e com o castelhano que aprendeu depois. =C9 esta influ=EAncia t=E3o n=EDtida de Portugal e dos Portugueses que levou= a que, por entre a selva das teorias at=E9 agora expressas sobre a sua enigm=E1tica figura, tenham crescido tamb=E9m as que lhe pretendem atribuir a nacionalidade portuguesa. Tal como in=FAmeras outras que t=EAm sido levantadas acerca da nacionalidade e local de nascimento de Colombo - catal=E3o, galego, corso, grego, franc=EAs, ingl=EAs, dinamarqu=EAs! - estas hip=F3teses portuguesas parecem realmente n=E3o ter fundamento. N=E3o que a figura do navegador n=E3o seja misteriosa e a sua hist=F3ria n= =E3o tenha ainda hoje muitas zonas de sombra. Mas a verdade =E9 que a hist=F3ria se faz com factos e com documentos - com aqueles que existem, sejam muitos ou poucos - e n=E3o com impressionismos sem prova ou com especula=E7=F5es esot=E9ricas. E n=E3o s=E3o necess=E1rios profetismos desl= ocados e chauvinismos prim=E1rios, fr=E1geis e sem base cient=EDfica - e portanto contraproducentes - para provar aquilo que =E9 verdade: que Cristov=E3o Colombo deveu muito a Portugal e aos Portugueses. Em certo sentido, Colombo =E9 realmente "portugu=EAs": no sentido de que aprendeu em Portugal e com os Portugueses muitos dos conhecimentos que lhe permitiram conceber e realizar o seu plano. Mas s=F3 nesse sentido. Porqu=EA tantas pol=E9micas e tanta dificuldade em reunir dados seguros acerca do nascimento e da identidade dessa enigm=E1tica personagem? Sem d=FAvida, desde logo, por uma raz=E3o: n=E3o somente as fontes hist=F3ricas prim=E1rias n=E3o abundam como, al=E9m disso, muitas vezes, elas t=EAm um car=E1cter misterioso ou voluntariamente lacunar. E isso n=E3o pode deixar de ser atribu=EDdo desde logo =E0 vontade do pr=F3prio Colombo (e de seus irm=E3os).=20 =C9 evidente que esse italiano que um dia chegou a Espanha e a=ED conseguiu depois chegar a ser Almirante do Mar Oceano n=E3o queria falar do seu passado. Porqu=EA? Provavelmente por uma raz=E3o =F3bvia: era de extrac=E7= =E3o humilde - filho de um tecel=E3o e taberneiro - e nos altos cargos a que se conseguiu guindar n=E3o gostaria de ser confrontado com esse facto, que preferiu deixar na sombra. A vida de Colombo poder=E1 talvez ser dividida em tr=EAs fases: antes, durante, e depois, do seu triunfo em Castela - respectivamente 1451-1493, 1494-1499, 1500-1506. Durante a primeira fase as dificuldades de identifica=E7=E3o dever-se-=E3o realmente =E0 escassez da documenta=E7=E3o que chegou at=E9 n=F3s; na segunda fase dever-se-=E3o ao mist=E9rio que o Almirante quis voluntariamente deixar adensar sobre o seu passado; mas j=E1 na terceira fase esse mist=E9rio ser=E1 em alguma medida desvendado, pois tendo entretanto ca=EDdo em desgra=E7a - passando dificuldades e n=E3o tendo j=E1 que manter as apar=EAncias e a press=E3o constante em que antes vivia - Colombo ir=E1 deixar algumas pistas e indica=E7=F5es mais ou menos expl=EDcitas quanto =E0 sua origem (e desta =FA= ltima fase nos chegam por isso alguns documentos que, embora n=E3o muito numerosos, s=E3o no entanto suficientes para mostrar a sua liga=E7=E3o inicial a G=E9nova). Provindo do sil=EAncio inicial do interessado, o mist=E9rio acerca do nascimento e da vida passada de Colombo n=E3o fez mais do que avolumar-se depois, desde logo no s=E9culo XVI, sobretudo nas penas dos seus diversos bi=F3grafos. Entre estes, para al=E9m do tamb=E9m importante Bartolom=E9 de = Las Casa, deve ser sobretudo referido o seu segundo filho (ileg=EDtimo) D. =46ernando Colombo, humanista e bibli=F3filo, que sobre o pai escreveu a sua Hist=F3ria do Almirante.=20 Esta obra tem sido um verdadeiro quebra-cabe=E7as. Originalmente escrita em castelhano, s=F3 foi publicada postumamente em italiano, e est=E1 cheia de incongru=EAncias, sobretudo nos primeiros quinze cap=EDtulos, onde trata do nascimento e da primeira fase da vida do biografado. As discuss=F5es t=EAm sido in=FAmeras entre os historiadores, acerca da fidedignidade e das poss=EDveis intromiss=F5es e falsifica=E7=F5es que possa conter. Ela =E9 no entanto uma fonte de irrecus=E1vel valor e utilidade. =46ernando Colombo n=E3o consegue (ou n=E3o quer) dar qualquer informa=E7=E3= o concreta e fi=E1vel acerca do ber=E7o de seu pai. Faz divaga=E7=F5es e= afirma a sua origem numa fam=EDlia de sangue ilustre que alegadamente haveria deca=EDdo, e tenta encontrar-lhe antecessores numa figura da Antiguidade Cl=E1ssica, ou em fam=EDlias nobres italianas da =E9poca. Mas por outro lado reconhece que ele chegou =E0 posi=E7=E3o que veio a ocupar pelos seus pr=F3prios feitos e n=E3o teve necessidade de riquezas dos seus antepassados. Diz que ele mudou o seu nome italiano de Colombo para Col=F3n, com o objectivo de o adequar ao pa=EDs para onde foi viver. Esta quest=E3o do nome e das suas diferentes grafias tem dado muito que falar. De facto, em Espanha, Colombo e os seus descendentes usaram o nome Col=F3n (embora =E0s vezes, no princ=EDpio, o rec=E9m-chegado fosse tam= b=E9m chamado de outra maneira - nomeadamente Colomo, o que j=E1 =E9 mais pr=F3xim= o de Colombo), e antes em Portugal o navegador fora chamado Colom (assim aparece, por exemplo, no cronista Jo=E3o de Barros). O nome Colombo =E9 afirmado por D. Fernando, e a sua atribui=E7=E3o foi desde ent=E3o paralela da atribui=E7=E3o de G=E9nova como local de nascimento. N=E3o h=E1 raz=F5es excessivas para duvidar que isso dever=E1 ter correspond= ido =E0 verdade. Assim foi considerado desde o s=E9culo XVI, e (como adiante voltaremos a referir-nos) modernamente, j=E1 no s=E9culo XX, foram encontrados em It=E1lia documentos que vieram trazer elementos nesse sentido, mostrando a exist=EAncia de um Cristoforo Colombo em G=E9nova antes do per=EDodo em que o Colom ou Col=F3n surgiria em Portugal e em Espanha (embora haja quem possa pretender discutir a autenticidade desses documentos, ou alegar que o Colombo tecel=E3o de G=E9nova nada tem a ver com o Colom, ou Col=F3n, navegador que mais tarde aparecer=E1 na Pen=EDnsula Ib=E9rica). O local do nascimento de Colombo foi considerado como tendo sido G=E9nova, e s=F3 quase dois s=E9culos depois =E9 que come=E7aram a aparecer tentativas de impugnar a origem italiana de Colombo, considerando que a sua atribui=E7=E3o se teria devido =E0 posterioridade e n=E3o ao pr=F3prio, = e afirmando que teria sido outro o ber=E7o do navegador. Mas isto parece ser uma hipercr=EDtica injustific=E1vel, motivada por reivindica=E7=F5es chauvinistas (engendrando pretensas provas e contestando outras, para lhe atribuir diferentes nacionalidades). E a verdade =E9 que para al=E9m de existirem alguns documentos da =FAltima fase da vida de Colombo em que o pr=F3prio afirma claramente que nasceu em G=E9nova (documentos que hoje j=E1 n=E3o podem ser contestados) existem al=E9m disso v=E1rios testemunhos = a que adiante nos referiremos, logo dos primeiros anos do s=E9culo XVI, de Portugal e de Espanha, de pessoas que ainda o conheceram directamente ou que pelo menos pertenceram =E0 sua gera=E7=E3o, e esses testemunhos indicam que ele era genov=EAs. AS CONTROV=C9RSIAS SOBRE A P=C1TRIA DE COLOMBO Sobre a nacionalidade do navegador n=E3o iriam parar de florescer in=FAmeras especula=E7=F5es e teorias, desde 1682 at=E9 =E0 actualidade. Mas= , antes de sobre elas nos debru=E7=E1rmos - o que iremos fazer nas p=E1ginas seguintes, apresentando quer as estrangeiras, quer as portuguesas - gostar=EDamos de fazer aqui um parentesis, notando o car=E1cter bem pouco significativo (e mesmo bizantino=8A) de todas estas pol=E9micas.=20 Com efeito, n=E3o tem sentido, em rela=E7=E3o ao s=E9culo XV, falar-se de nacionalidade nos mesmos termos em que se fala hoje em dia. Nesse tempo n=E3o se era portugu=EAs ou genov=EAs, ou castelhano, e muito menos espanhol, ou italiano, com o mesmo significado que essas express=F5es t=EAm actualmente. Era-se, sobretudo, s=FAbdito do Rei de Portugal, ou s=FAbdito do Rei de Castela, ou de qualquer outro senhor. O que significa que, como =E9 =F3bvio, se podia portanto mudar com bastante facilidade de nacionalidade, quando se mudava de soberano. A no=E7=E3o da terra - do s=EDtio onde se nasceu - j=E1 certamente come=E7ar= ia a ter algum significado (mais com certeza para a burguesia e o povo, menos para a nobreza feudal), mas, acaso j=E1 estavam criados os diversos pa=EDses tal como viriam a existir para futuro? Claro que n=E3o. E s=F3 por isso j=E1 =E9 bastante anacr=F3nico falar-se de nacionalidade nos =FAltimos s=E9culos da Idade M=E9dia. Nestes tempos o essencial era o territ=F3rio onde se vivia e o senhor que se servia. E embora muitas vezes isso n=E3o viesse a acontecer, eles at=E9 podiam =E0s vezes mudar. Bastava que houvesse conquistas, ou viagens. Das primeiras houve muitas na Alta Idade M=E9dia, e das segundas ainda houve mais nos =FAltimos s=E9culos medievos. =C9 o caso de Colombo. O aventureiro foi sucessivamente genov=EAs, portugu=EAs, castelhano, =E0 medida que a roda da fortuna e as vicissitudes do seu percurso o levaram a viver em cada um dos espa=E7os onde se desenrolou a sua vida (e a colocar-se ao servi=E7o dos senhores locais). Colombo =E9 um exemplo do que ent=E3o estava a acontecer: surgia um novo tipo de homem, o burgu=EAs ligado =E0 mercancia e =E0 viagem - que n=E3o tin= ha paralelo em nenhuma categoria da sociedade da Alta Idade M=E9dia, e que iria revolucionar o mundo nos s=E9culos seguintes. Por tudo isto, s=E3o discuss=F5es um pouco acad=E9micas, e que dir=EDamos de lana caprina, as que nascem de se considerar t=E3o importante assim a determina=E7=E3o do s=EDtio exacto onde nasceu um homem no s=E9culo XV para = da=ED lhe querer tirar uma nacionalidade (pois bem mais importante =E9 saber-se onde viveu e com que influ=EAncias se formou!). S=E3o discuss=F5es em que sobretudo se poder=E3o comprazer os divulgadores e os ignorantes - todos os curiosos que tendem a tornar-se presa f=E1cil do chauvinismo - mais do que os verdadeiros historiadores (pois esses preferem dedicar-se a outras coisas, mais importantes: tentar compreender a estrutura e a causalidade das complexas teias da realidade vivida pelos homens do passado). Mas debrucemo-nos ent=E3o a seguir - tal como prometido, mas com a brevidade poss=EDvel=8A - sobre esses vespeiros que s=E3o as infinitas discuss=F5es acerca do lugar de nascimento e a p=E1tria de Colombo=8A Iremo= s faz=EA-lo aqui, em termos sucintos, ora abreviando e reduzindo ao essencial as diversas argumenta=E7=F5es mirabolantes que foram produzidas para provar esta ou aquela teoria colombina, ora simplesmente citando a sua exist=EAncia mas n=E3o perdendo tempo a acompanhr os seus palavrosos desenvolvimentos (e s=F3 nos vamos referir =E0s mais importantes e =E0s que sejam minimamente merecedoras de aten=E7=E3o, pois existem muitas ainda mais abstrusas do que algumas das que vamos aqui citar=8A). O nosso objectivo, ao fazer o apanhado de todas estas teoriza=E7=F5es mais ou menos fantasiosas, foi somente o de usar isso como uma introdu=E7=E3o e um ponto pr=E9vio para aquilo que verdadeiramente nos deve interessar - as explora=E7=F5es de Cristov=E3o Colombo em rela=E7=E3o com as navega=E7=F5= es portuguesas - e que tratamos no nosso livro Portugal e o Reconhecimento da Am=E9rica. Cristov=E3o Colombo e os Portugueses. No entanto, ningu=E9m s= e dever=E1 admirar de que este ponto pr=E9vio nos tenha obrigado a gastar uma muito grande quantidade de p=E1ginas. =C9 que o n=FAmero das teses colombina= s =E9 avassalador, e a complexidade do emaranhado das argumenta=E7=F5es =E9 verdadeiramente insana. Come=E7aremos pelas teorias colombinas mais antigas, estrangeiras, para depois chegarmos =E0 teorias "portuguesas", mais recentes. A estas =FAltimas, deveremos realmente dedicar-lhes muito espa=E7o, para as passar em revista e acompanhar as suas fr=E1geis argumenta=E7=E3oes - segundo o bom princ=EDpio (que vamos praticar) de que a cada um compete podar o jardim das suas pr=F3prias gl=F3rias nacionais, para o manter limpo de todas as silvas e excrec=EAncias chauvinistas, e assim n=E3o terem que ser os estrangeiros a vir faz=EA-lo depois=8A AS TESES DO COLOMBO GALEGO, CATAL=C3O, ETC. Como dissemos atr=E1s, durante quase dois s=E9culos n=E3o foi questionada a origem genovesa de Colombo. Mas desde ent=E3o as teorias n=E3o mais pararam. Em 1682, num livro publicado em Inglaterra, foi defendida a ideia de que nesse pa=EDs havia nascido o futuro Almirante por Castela. Logo em 1697 surgiu em Fran=E7a uma teoria devida a um auto-proclamado descendente do navegador. No s=E9culo XVIII fizeram-no catal=E3o. A partir da=ED as hip=F3teses romperam como ervas daninhas, chegando-se =E0s mais incr=EDveis: grego, corso, etc. Seria por=E9m j=E1 na =C9poca Contempor=E2nea que as reivindica=E7=F5es nacionalistas de Colombo mais iriam florescer. E tal aconteceria sobretudo, como =E9 compreens=EDvel, nas na=E7=F5es =E0s quais efectivamente esteve ligada a vida do navegador - It=E1lia, Portugal e Espanha - onde essas reivindica=E7=F5es poderiam ter portanto mais credibilidade. O grande momento de exacerbamento destas reivindica=E7=F5es seria na proximidade do IV Centen=E1rio, na data de 1892 e nos anos seguintes, at=E9 =E0s primeiras d=E9cadas do s=E9culo XX, no rescaldo das grandes celebra=E7= =F5es que ent=E3o foram feitas. Os Italianos - ent=E3o em =E9poca de unifica=E7=E3= o e afirma=E7=E3o nacional - defenderam com unhas e dentes o seu Colombo, que ent=E3o estavam transformando em s=EDmbolo patri=F3tico. Os Peninsulares tentaram disputar-lho, afirmando um Colombo galego, ou portugu=EAs, ou catal=E3o, e por a=ED adiante (maiorquino, estremenho, etc). Tudo isto tomou muitas vezes uma colora=E7=E3o pol=EDtica e nacionalista, implicando bastante chauvinismo por parte de muitos intervenientes, de todos os quadrantes. N=E3o nos esque=E7amos que nos =FAltimos anos do s=E9cu= lo XIX e nas duas primeiras d=E9cadas do s=E9culo XX era muito grande a emigra=E7=E3o italiana para a Am=E9rica, e muito significativo o peso dos =EDtalo-americanos nas sociedades dos pa=EDses do Novo Mundo (sobretudo nos Estados Unidos, mas tamb=E9m na Argentina e em outros). Quer a=ED, quer em It=E1lia, Colombo foi transformado num s=EDmbolo nacional de um pa=EDs qu= e precisava de os encontrar, pois era recente a sua unifica=E7=E3o e a cria=E7=E3o do seu Estado. E isto depois continuou, sendo articulado com as condi=E7=F5es pol=EDticas dos anos trinta e com os conflitos ent=E3o reinant= es. E mesmo dentro da It=E1lia v=E1rias localidades surgiram tentando disputar a G=E9nova o nascimento do her=F3i, e os exageros para "provar" a sua nacionalidade levaram a n=E3o poucos excessos, e mesmo a mistifica=E7=F5es e falsifica=E7=F5es. Em 1892, por ocasi=E3o do IV Centen=E1rio, na Raccolta Colombiana de Cesare de Lollis foi publicada uma s=E9rie de documentos que mostravam a liga=E7=E3o do descobridor da Am=E9rica a G=E9nova. Mas depois em 1898, no rescaldo das comemora=E7=F5es dos anos anteriores, o espanhol Celso Garcia de la Riega com grande aparato apresentou documenta=E7=E3o in=E9dita onde alegadamente se provava que Colombo havia nascido na Galiza! A ideia ecoou bastante (e como adiante veremos levaria ao despoletar das teorias cong=E9neres "portuguesas"), mas logo depois se soube que=8A essa documenta=E7=E3o era falsa=8A sendo denunciada como tal por El=E1dio Oviedo = y Arce, por Manuel Serrano y Sanz e por outros americanistas, mesmo espanh=F3is. No entanto, a tese "galega" provocou um grande alarido, tendo sido muito defendida por Enrique de Arribas, que apontava mesmo Pontevedra como a terra natal do navegador, baseado em grande medida nos nomes que Colombo haveria dado aos seus descobrimentos, e que corresponderiam a top=F3nimos dessa regi=E3o da Galiza (tudo isto no seguimento das fontes falsificadas por Garcia de la Riega). Nas primeiras d=E9cadas do s=E9culo XX iniciaram-se, por arrastamento, as teorias "portuguesas" (que viriam a usar tamb=E9m argumentos deste tipo). Adiante trataremos especialmente delas. Digamos agora alguma coisa mais sobre as espanholas. Por volta de 1927 o autor peruano Luis Ulloa defendeu a tese de que Colombo era catal=E3o e se chamava realmente Juan Bautista Col=F3n - isto baseou-se na "descoberta" de que Cristov=E3o e Jo=E3o Baptista significariam a mesma coisa=8A Outra tese, que sempre conseguiu bastante aceita=E7=E3o, foi a de que o navegador seria de origem judaica. Seria defendida sob v=E1rias formas. Uma delas foi a de Salvador de Madariaga, que afirmou que se trataria de um filho de uma fam=EDlia de judeus catal=E3es emigrados em G=E9nova, e por isso Colombo falaria castelhano, pois j=E1 seria essa a l=EDngua que utilizava antes quando vivia em It=E1lia (restaria provar como =E9 que judeus catal=E3es na Idade M=E9dia falavam castelhano em vez de catal=E3o=8A= ). Este argumento lingu=EDstico =E9 interessante, embora n=E3o seja inteirament= e correcto. De facto, =E9 verdade que Colombo n=E3o escrevia (e provavelmente n=E3o falava) em nenhum dos ent=E3o numerosos dialectos italianos, nomeadamente no da regi=E3o de G=E9nova. Mas a l=EDngua em que se encontram escritos os seus textos n=E3o =E9 propriamente castelhano. Bem pelo contr=E1rio, Colombo escrevia ou num latim estropiado ou numa estranha mistura entre o portugu=EAs e o castelhano, com algum (muito pouco) italiano genov=EAs =E0 mistura. A ESTRANHA L=CDNGUA DE COLOMBO Os diversos elementos que formariam a "l=EDngua pessoal" de Colombo eram mesclados de uma forma bastante descomplexada e utilit=E1ria (procurando muitas vezes os melhores denominadores comuns das diversas gram=E1ticas e ortografias), mas com clara domin=E2ncia do portugu=EAs (o que foi notado pelo pr=F3prio Ramon Menendez-Pidal, o autor espanhol que mais estudou este problema, e corroborado modernamente por Consuelo Varela e outros). Colombo n=E3o falava nem escrevia com correc=E7=E3o em nenhuma l=EDngua.=20 Misturava v=E1rias, e quando no princ=EDpio foi para Castela, ido de Portugal, era a=ED considerado como estrangeiro ou como portugu=EAs. Esta falta de propriedade na linguagem castelhana foi notada por quantos contactaram com ele, quer funcion=E1rios que o conheceram, quer os seus bi=F3grafos, como Bartolom=E9 de Las Casas, que tiveram nas m=E3os textos seus. E as formas que se detectam na sua escrita, que ainda hoje conhecemos sobretudo nos seus aut=F3grafos (menos nos textos que foram copiados, pois a=ED os copistas alteraram-nos, para os "corrigir" em castelhano) s=E3o claramente formas provindas da l=EDngua portuguesa. Poder=E1 haver quem possa pretender que isto =E9 um argumento suficiente para "provar" que ele seria portugu=EAs. Mas talvez assim n=E3o seja, pois =E9 poss=EDvel que se tenha deixado influenciar de uma forma muito decisiva pela l=EDngua do pa=EDs, quando foi viver para Portugal, com 24 ou 25 anos apenas, contactando a=ED com c=EDrculos portugueses e com c=EDrculos de italianos imigrados em Portugal, que naturalmente falavam a l=EDngua do pa=EDs anfitri=E3o (como por exemplo a fam=EDlia dos Perestrelos, em que viria mesmo a casar). Ser=E1 t=E3o estranho este facto de que um genov=EAs que na juventude saiu d= a sua cidade n=E3o domine a express=E3o escrita da sua l=EDngua? Talvez n=E3o= , porque provavelmente ele n=E3o a teria dominado nunca. Esse dialecto genov=EAs n=E3o se escrevia, e o italiano liter=E1rio s=F3 o leria, e mal, n= =E3o o escrevendo (segundo a opini=E3o de Menendez-Pidal). Embora influenciado pela sua origem burguesa e italiana, a sua forma=E7=E3o ter=E1 sido sobretud= o feita em Portugal, quando a=ED viveu durante muitos anos, e esse per=EDodo portugu=EAs da sua vida ter=E1 sido t=E3o importante, e t=E3o decisivo, que nunca mais se libertou da influ=EAncia portuguesa na sua linguagem. Sobre a quest=E3o da l=EDngua de Colombo muito se tem discutido. Ela comporta de facto uma maioria de formas indubitavelmente portuguesas, algumas castelhanas, algumas poucas italianas e genovesas (embora menos ainda do que muitas vezes se julga e se diz, pois algumas destas formas pretensamente italianas n=E3o s=E3o mais do que=8A portuguesas=8A e isso =E9 ignorado pelos investigadores que n=E3o conhecem bem uma l=EDngua dif=EDcil como =E9 o portugu=EAs). =C9 poss=EDvel que o castelhano o tenha aprendido tamb=E9m em alguma medida em Portugal (pois ele era a=ED conhecido), como afirmou Menendez- Pidal. Mas =E9 =F3bvio que o ter=E1 desenvolvido sobretudo depois, quando foi viver para Castela.=20 Qual seria portanto a sua l=EDngua? N=E3o =E9 f=E1cil responder. Por escri= to, nos documentos conhecidos hoje em dia, e que prov=EAm do seu per=EDodo castelhano, usou somente a tal l=EDngua estranha que =E9 uma mistura de portugu=EAs com castelhano (para al=E9m de uma ou outra espor=E1dica nota, o= u pequeno texto, em latim ou num pretenso italiano que n=E3o chega a s=EA-lo). Estando em Espanha, n=E3o =E9 de admirar que tentasse aproximar o mais poss=EDvel a sua estranha l=EDngua do castelhano. Mas ser=E3o muito excessivas as perspectivas de quem da=ED queira concluir que falava castelhano. A verdade =E9 que as formas que sobretudo se insinuam na sua escrita s=E3o portuguesas. Mas, o mais estranho =E9 que mesmo na correspond=EAncia dirigida ao Embaixador de G=E9nova, ao frade italiano Gaspar Gorricio, ao seu filho Diogo e ao seu irm=E3o Bartolomeu, usa sempre essa l=EDngua estranha, e n=E3= o o italiano=8A J=E1 n=E3o saberia escrev=EA-lo? N=E3o o teria sabido nunca?= Isto tem sido motivo de grandes discuss=F5es, mas remetemos para o que dissemos acima, e que poder=E1 talvez explic=E1-lo. E a verdade =E9 que, embora n=E3o muito numerosas, se encontram tamb=E9m de vez em quando na sua escrita algumas poucas formas italianas e genovesas, que muito dificilmente poderiam ser explicadas se ele nunca tivesse tido contactos com a Lig=FAria. Esta quest=E3o da l=EDngua foi muito usada pelos defensores da ideia de que n=E3o poderia ser genov=EAs, e que deveria ser judeu catal=E3o, como queria Salvador de Madariaga. (...) 0000,0000,FFFFAlfredo Pinheiro Marques =20 ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** ***=20 PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ =20 ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** 0000,7777,0000alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 =46ax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** 6666,3333,0000alfmarq@ci.uc.pt =20 Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras =46ax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm 6666,3333,0000****************************************= ********* DESIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 27 03:36:45 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA07633 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 03:36:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id DAA05463. Mon, 27 Mar 2000 03:35:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA05459 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 03:34:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA06994 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 03:34:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.206.91]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FS24AL00.Y52 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 03:32:45 +0200 Message-ID: <000801bf978b$fc746cc0$5bce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] General bibliography on Portuguese discoveries Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 03:30:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Alfredo M. Marques: Have you any data of two people that maybe arrived to America before Columbus: the portuguese Joao Vaz, and the polish (?) John Scolvus ? Thank You Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es -----Mensaje original----- De: Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR Para: discovery@win.tue.nl Fecha: jueves, 23 de marzo de 2000 1:47 Asunto: [EXP] General bibliography on Portuguese discoveries The bibliography of Portuguese discoveries and cartography exists. It is availabe in the Internet at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm/ Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 Fax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras Fax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* DÉSIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 27 10:55:28 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA02443 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:55:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA06359. Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:53:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA06355 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:53:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA02335 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:53:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA13234 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:53:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29357 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:53:33 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38DF218D.11CE82AE@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:53:33 +0200 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] General bibliography on Portuguese discoveries References: <000801bf978b$fc746cc0$5bce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO "j. anaya" wrote: > Dear Alfredo M. Marques: > Have you any data of two people that maybe arrived to > America > before Columbus: the portuguese Joao Vaz, and the polish (?) John Scolvus Jon Skolp was an Norwegian. Not a Dane and not a Pole. (polonus) -- has been suggested as due to a misreading of "pilotos" as "polono. If the Danish/Portugeese 1477 expedition took place, Columbus probably reached America with Joao Vaz Córte-Real and Jon Skolp. Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 27 15:47:16 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA20626 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:47:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA06974. Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:46:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA06970 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:46:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from IDENT:root@mail.minn.net [216.177.129.2] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA16987 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:46:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default (pm2-1-19.dynamic.minn.net [216.177.137.50]) by mail.minn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA32207 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:46:49 -0600 Message-ID: <008101bf97f3$2109ca00$3289b1d8@default> From: "Keith Pickering" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:48:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Columbus is known to have spoken and read Spanish, since we have Spanish language documents in his hand. He is reliably reported to have been good in Latin. And he gave sworn testimony in a court case in Genoa, indicating that he also spoke Genoese. Keith Pickering -----Original Message----- From: Andre Engels To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name >Geir Odden wrote: > >> Yes, he grew up in Genova, but why couldn't he speak Italian properly ? > >Any evidence for that? He seems to have spoken fluent Castilian, but I have >seen no evidence either way regarding his Italian. > >-- >Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 >http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > >A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. > - Maria Montessori > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Mar 27 22:01:44 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA09326 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:01:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA07613. Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:01:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA07609 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:01:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.5] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA18479 (ESMTP). Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:01:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost2.u.washington.edu (mailhost2.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW00.02/8.9.3+UW99.09) with ESMTP id MAA18774 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:01:09 -0800 Received: from u.washington.edu (cs104-8.fsmodem.washington.edu [140.142.180.62]) by mailhost2.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW00.02/8.9.3+UW00.01) with ESMTP id MAA07681 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:01:08 -0800 Message-ID: <38DFBE01.640CDF1A@u.washington.edu> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:01:05 -0800 From: Walter Keith Percival X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' mother's name References: <008101bf97f3$2109ca00$3289b1d8@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Another point in connection with Columbus's knowledge of Italian is this: In Columbus's day, there was no such thing yet as standard Italian (and no such thing as Italy, other than as a geographical term!). For the most part, the only written language in general use at that time in Italy was Latin, and everybody spoke a different dialect of "Italian" depending on place of birth and upbringing. What was later to become the standard language of Italy was based on the dialect of Tuscany, and Columbus came from Genoa, which has a dialect that differs quite fundamentally from Tuscan. Genoese is closer to Provençal than Tuscan. W. Keith Percival Professor Emeritus of Linguistics Fellow, American Academy of Arts and Sciences 3815 NE 89th Street Seattle, WA 98115 Telephone: (206) 522 4347 E-mail: From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Mar 28 03:08:11 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA21884 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:08:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id DAA08279. Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:07:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA08275 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:07:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.203] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA21854 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:07:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [194.65.180.79] by fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000328010934.MFDO16776.fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.180.79]> for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 02:09:34 +0100 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 02:07:36 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] Re: Joao Vaz & John Scolvus Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >Dear Alfredo M. Marques: > > Have you any data of two people that maybe arrived >to America before Columbus: the portuguese Joao Vaz, and >the polish (?) John Scolvus ? > > Thank you > Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es Dear Mr. Jose Anaya: I am not an expert on the matters of geographical discoveries and cartography in the North Atlantic (namely Canada, Newfoundland, Labrador, etc.), since I work on other areas and I never did any special research on these issues. As far as I know the idea of the so-called 'Portuguese-Danish' exploration, or explorations, has been put forward in the past by some Danish authors (most of all Sofus Larsen), and later accepted by several Portuguese authors (see below quotations of several Larsen's publications, among other authors'). It seems that these issues are very difficult to clarify. There are authors who think there has been one c.1472-1474 voyage by the Portuguese Joao Vaz Corte-Real and Alvaro Martins Homem, navigating to the West Atlantic during two years, arriving to the banks of Newfoundland (this Joao Vaz Corte-Real is the father of the other two Corte-Real,Gaspar and Miguel, who certainly went there later, in 1500-1502). Some other authors think there has been some 'Portuguese-Scandinavian' voyage c.1476-1477, in which took part the Danish captains Pining and Pothorts, or even some other voyage, more or less by the same years, including the Scandinavian captain Skolp (Scolvus in Latin). And then Sofus Larsen identifies all that, and supports the idea that the two Portuguese men could have take part in some 'Scandinavian-Portuguese' expedition sent by King Christian of Dennmark and King Afonso of Portugal, with Pining, Pothorts and Scolvus (expedition dated 1472-1474, and not at all 1476-1477). Sofus Larsen points some cartographical evidence, with toponyms including the name 'Joao Vaz' in these regions of the North (but the maps he quotes are later specimens, of the second half of the 16th century, and therefore can not prove nothing). It seems to me that it is very difficult, from a Portuguese point of view (with Portuguese sources), to have certainties about all this mess. I do not know nothing in relation with Danish or Norwegian sources. The whole affair seems very controversial, with suppositions and unproven claims (and probably motivated, at least in certain cases, by some chauvinistical and political claims... trying to find precursors who went to American waters before Columbus...). I am a little bit tired of Columbian controversies... and of chauvinistical claims in the History of Geographical Discoveries (including, most of all, these kind of claims coming from my own country... as I already explained before...). What we know for sure, from a Portuguese point of view, is that in 1500-1501 the navigator Gaspar Corte-Real, probably followed by his brother Miguel Corte-Real in 1501-1502, crossed the waters of the North Atlantic and went ashore, probably in Newfoundland (and these lands were considered as being located to the east of the Tordesillas Treaty meridian, and so represented in cartography...). These brothers never came back, and the aleged 'proofs' of their instalation among the Indians of New England are very doubtfull (namely the so-called Dighton rock"). In 1496-1498 (most probably in 1496) the Portuguese Joao Fernandes Lavrador and Pedro de Barcelos must have been in these regions of the North, into Greenland and possibly touching nowadays Labrador peninsula. Maybe Joao =46ernandes had already been there before (and was returning?), and it is certain that he went with the English from Bristol, certainly in Cabot's 1497 exploration (we know that because it is clearly written in the anonymous - Diogo Ribeiro / Diego Ribero chart of c.1532 of the Herzog August Bibliothek of Wolfenbuttel). In cartography the name Labrador was first atributed to Greenland, but it is possible that he also made contact with the mainland. Also sure is the fact that the Portuguese Joao Alvares Fagundes, from Viana da Foz do Lima, made fisheries and installations on land, somewhere in the North, during the first two decades of the 16th century (until c.1521). The results of the expeditions by Gaspar and Miguel Corte-Real can be seen in the North-Western part of the famous 'map of Cantino', made at the end of 1502 in Lisbon by some unknown (and bribed...) Portuguese cartographer, taken to Italy by the Italian Alberto Cantino, offered to the Duke of Este, and nowadays kept in the Biblioteca Estense, in Modena, Italy. I can not tell you nothing more. What I can do is send all the bibliographical references which I gathered on these matters and were included in my Bibliography of the Discoveries (http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm/). Here they are: E.III.B.8. PORTUGUESE DISCOVERIES AND THE EXPLORATION OF THE WEST ATLANTIC AGOSTINHO, Jos=E9, "Sobre a Data da Viagem do Descobrimento de P=EAro de Barcelos e Jo=E3o Fernandes Labrador", BIHIT, Angra do Hero=EDsmo: IHIT, 194= 3, vol. I, 41-49. ALBUQUERQUE, Lu=EDs de, "Contribution des Portugais =E0 la D=E9couverte de l=B4Amerique du Nord", in Estudos de Hist=F3ria, vol. V, Coimbra: BGUC, 1977= , 109-134. ALBUQUERQUE, Lu=EDs de, "Contribution des Portugais =E0 la D=E9couverte de l=B4Am=E9rique du Nord", in Atti del I Congresso Internazionale di Storia Americana (Genova, 1976), Genova: Tilgher, 1976, 153-162 (sep.). ALBUQUERQUE, Lu=EDs de, "O Tratado de Tordesilhas e o Descobrimento do Brasil", in Cr=F3nicas de Hist=F3ria de Portugal, Lisboa: Presen=E7a, 1987, = 50-55. BARKHAM, Selma Huxley, "North America", in KEAY, John (ed.), The Royal Geographical Society History of World Exploration, London: Hamlyn - RGS, 1991, 128-163. BR=C1S, Henrique, "Descoberta Pr=E9-Colombina de Terras da Am=E9rica (Jo=E3o= Vaz Corte Real e =C1lvaro Martins Homem)", BIHIT, Angra do Hero=EDsmo: IHIT, 194= 3, vol. I (sep.). CANTO, Ernesto do, "Os Corte Reais - Mem=F3ria Hist=F3rica", Arquivo dos A=E7ores, vol. IV, 1882, 385-590. CORDEIRO, Luciano, "De la Part Prise par les Portugais dans la D=E9couverte de l'Am=E9rique [1876]", in Quest=F5es Hist=F3rico-Coloniais, vol. I, Lisboa= : AGC, 1935, 5-92. CORTE-REAL, Jo=E3o Afonso, "Problem=E1tica das Navega=E7=F5es para= Noroeste", in Actas do Congresso Internacional de Hist=F3ria dos Descobrimentos, vol. III, Lisboa, 1961, 79-92. CORTES=C3O, Armando, "La D=E9couverte de l=B4Am=E9rique et la Science= Nautique", in Esparsos, vol. I, Coimbra: BGUC, 1975, 73-86. CORTES=C3O, Jaime, "Am=E9rica. O Problema do seu Descobrimento e as Novas Ba= ses duma Solu=E7=E3o", in SERR=C3O, J. (ed.), Dicion=E1rio de Hist=F3ria de= Portugal, 2 ed., vol. I, Porto: Iniciativas Editoriais-Figueirinhas, 1975, 128-142. CORTES=C3O, Jaime, Le Trait=E9 de Tordesillas et la D=E9couverte de l=B4Am= =E9rique, Comunication au XXII Congr=E9s International des Americanistes, Rome, 1926, Lisboa: BNL, 1926. CORTES=C3O, Jaime, Os Descobrimentos Portugueses, 3 ed., Lisboa, 1981 (vol. IV Parte V - O Tratado de Tordesilhas e o Descobrimento do Brasil. Cap. II O Problema do Descobrimento da Am=E9rica, 924-938). CORTES=C3O, Jaime, Os Descobrimentos Pr=E9-Colombinos dos Portugueses, [O.C. vol. VIII], Lisboa: Portug=E1lia, 1966. CORTES=C3O, Jaime, "The Pre-Columbian Discovery of America", Geographical Journal, London, 1937, vol. LXXXIX, (1), Jan. (sep.). COSTA, Manuel Fernandes, O Descobrimento da Am=E9rica e o Tratado de Tordesilhas, Lisboa: ICP, 1979. COUTINHO, Alm. Gago, "A=E7ores. A Volta do Mar Largo", in A N=E1utica dos Descobrimentos. Colect=E2nea de Artigos, Confer=EAncias e Trabalhos In=E9dit= os do Alm. Gago Coutinho, ed. Com. Moura Braz, vol. I, Lisboa: AGU, 1956, 165-194. COUTINHO, Alm. Gago, "A Interven=E7=E3o Portuguesa no Descobrimento da Am=E9= rica do Norte", in A N=E1utica dos Descobrimentos. Colect=E2nea de Artigos, Confer=EAncias e Trabalhos In=E9ditos do Alm. Gago Coutinho, ed. Com. Moura Braz, vol. I, Lisboa: AGU, 1956, 263-278. COUTINHO, Alm. Gago, "Henry Harrisse e a Descoberta da Am=E9rica", in A N=E1utica dos Descobrimentos. Colect=E2nea de Artigos, Confer=EAncias e Trab= alhos In=E9ditos do Alm. Gago Coutinho, ed. Com. Moura Braz, vol. II, Lisboa: AGU, 1957, 188-196. DAVIES, Arthur, "The Mainland in the West", RUC, Coimbra, 1978, vol. XXVI (reed. Coimbra: AECA, 1978, sep. CXII). GON=C7ALVES, Ernesto Mar=E7al Martins, "Jo=E3o Afonso do Estreito", Das= Artes e da Hist=F3ria da Madeira, Funchal, 1971, vol. VIII (41). HARRISSE, Henry, D=E9couverte et Evolution Cartographique de Terre Neuve et des Pays Circonvoisins,1497-1501-1769, reed., Amsterdam: Nico Israel, 1968. JOST, T.P., "Portuguese Activity along the Canadian Shore at the Beginning of Modern Times", in Actas do Congresso Internacional de Hist=F3ria dos Descobrimentos, vol. III, Lisboa, 1961, 271-288. LARSEN, Sofus, "A Supposed Danish-Portuguese Voyage in Greenland in the =46iffteenth Century", The Geographical Journal, 1924, 1925, vol. LXIV, vol. LXVI, 424-425, 68-69. LARSEN, Sofus, "Discovery of the North-American Mainland Twenty Years Before Columbus", in Congr=E8s International des Am=E9ricanistes, G=F6teborg= , 1925, 285-293. LARSEN, Sofus, "La D=E9couverte du Continent de l=B4Am=E9rique= Septentrionale en 1472-1473 par les Danois et les Portugais ", Boletim da Segunda Classe da Academia das Ci=EAncias de Lisboa, Coimbra: ACL, 1926, n. 15, 214-223. LARSEN, Sofus, The Discovery of the North-America Twenty Years Before Columbus, K=F8benhavn: Levin & Munksgaard, 1925. LEITE, Duarte, "Viagens para Ocidente", in Hist=F3ria dos Descobrimentos. Colect=E2nea de Esparsos, ed. V. Magalh=E3es Godinho, vol. I, Lisboa: Cosmo= s, 1959, 339-373. LEITE, Jos=E9 Guilherme Reis, "Os Cortes Reais: O Ramo A=E7oriano e o Seu Significado", Oceanos, Lisboa: CNCDP, 1989, n. 1, 87-92. LIMA, Manuel Coelho Baptista de, Deux Voyages Portugais de D=E9couverte dans l=B4Atlantique Ocidental, s.l. [Lisboa], 1946. LOPES, Francisco Fernandes, "Colabora=E7=E3o Portuguesa no Descobrimento da Am=E9rica N=E3o Brasileira", in BAI=C3O, A., et al. (ed.), Hist=F3ria da E= xpans=E3o Portuguesa no Mundo, vol. II, Lisboa: =C1tica, 1939, 331-358. MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, Portugal e o Descobrimento do Atl=E2ntico. S=EDnt= ese e Cronologia - Portugal and the Discovery of the Atlantic. A Summary and a Chronology, Lisboa: INCM, 1990. MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, Portugal e o Descobrimento Europeu da Am=E9rica. Crist=F3v=E3o Colombo e os Portugueses, Lisboa: INCM, 1991 (eng. trans. Portugal and the European Discovery of America. Christopher Columbus and the Portuguese, Lisboa: INCM, 1992; deut. =FCb. Portugal und die Europ=E4isc= he Entdeckung Amerikas. Christoph Kolumbus und die Portugiesen, Lisboa: INCM, 1992; 2 ed. Lisboa: C=EDrculo de Leitores, 1992). MOREIRA, Manuel Ant=F3nio Fernandes, O Porto de Viana do Castelo e as Navega=E7=F5es para o Noroeste Europeu, Viana do Castelo, 1987. MORISON, Samuel Eliot, Portuguese Voyages to America in the Fifteenth Century, Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1940 (reed. Cambridge, 1974, trad. port. As Viagens Portuguesas =E0 Am=E9rica, Lisboa: Teorema, s.d= =2E [1991]). MORISON, Samuel Eliot, The European Discovery of America. The Northern Voyages A.D. 500-1600, New York: Oxford University Press, 1971. MORISON, Samuel Eliot, The European Discovery of America. The Southern Voyages A.D. 1492-1616, New York: Oxford University Press, 1974. MOTA, A. Teixeira da, Portuguese Navigations in the North Atlantic in the =46ifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries, St.John=B4s (Newfoundland): Memorial University of Newfoundland, 1966. PERES, Dami=E3o, Joaquim Bensa=FAde e os Problemas dos Descobrimentos Portugueses a Oeste, Lisboa: APH, 1962. RAMOS, Manuel, "A Tradi=E7=E3o Portuguesa de Terras e Viagens para Ocidente: Cabral e o Brasil", in PERES, Dami=E3o (ed.), Hist=F3ria de Portugal, vol. III (1411-1557), Barcelos: Portucalense Editora, 1931, 590-598. ZECHLIN, Egmont, "O Problema do Pr=E9-Descobrimento Luso-Germano-Dinamarqu= =EAs da Am=E9rica", Boletim do Instituto Alem=E3o, Coimbra, 1935, n. 4, 101-105 (= 1 ed. Forschungen und Fortschritte, n. 9 (14), 1935). E.III.B.8.2. EXPLORATION OF THE WESTERN ATLANTIC IN TIME OF KING JO=C3O II AND KING MANUEL (1481-1495-1521) ALBUQUERQUE, Lu=EDs de, "Sobre o Descobrimento da Am=E9rica: Uma Pedra e Um Mapa - I", in D=FAvidas e Certezas na Hist=F3ria dos Descobrimentos Portugueses, vol. I, Lisboa: Vega, 1990, 67-74. ARA=DAJO, Jos=E9 Rosa de, "Quem era Jo=E3o =C1lvares Fagundes", in Actas do Congresso Internacional Bartolomeu Dias e a sua =C9poca, vol. II, Porto: Universidade do Porto - CNCDP, 1989, 363-368. BRAZ=C3O, Eduardo, Os Corte Reais e o Novo Mundo, Lisboa: AGU, 1965 (eng. trans. The Corte-Real Family and the New World, Lisboa: AGU, 1965; trad. franc. Les Corte-Real et le Nouveau- Monde, Lisboa: AGU, 1967). BRAZ=C3O, Eduardo, Os Descoobrimentos Portugueses nas Hist=F3rias do Canad= =E1, Lisboa: AGU, 1969. CANTO, Ernesto do, "Quem deu o Nome ao Labrador?", Arquivo dos A=E7ores, vol= =2E XII, 1892, 353-371. CORTES=C3O, Jaime, Os Descobrimentos Portugueses, 3 ed. , Lisboa: Livros Horizonte, 1981 (vol. IV , Parte V - O Tratado de Tordesilhas e o Descobrimento do Brasil, cap. X O Rumo do Nordeste, 1140-1169). COUTINHO, Alm. Gago, "A Pedra de Dighton", in A N=E1utica dos Descobrimentos= =2E Colect=E2nea de Artigos, Confer=EAncias e Trabalhos In=E9ditos do Alm. Gago Coutinho, ed. Com. Moura Braz, vol. II, Lisboa: AGU, 1957, 228-232. COUTINHO, Alm. Gago, "Gaspar Corte Real", in A N=E1utica dos Descobrimentos. Colect=E2nea de Artigos, Confer=EAncias e Trabalhos In=E9ditos do Alm. Gago Coutinho, ed. Com. Moura Braz, vol. II, Lisboa: AGU, 1957, 63-91. DELABARRE, Edmund Burke, "A Rocha de Dighton", BAGC, Lisboa: AGC, 1927, n. 20, 143-166. DELABARRE, Edmund Burke, Dighton Rock. A Study of the Written Rocks of New England, New York: Walter Neale, 1928. =46REITAS, Jord=E3o de, "O Descobrimento Pr=E9-Colombino da Am=E9rica= Austral pelos Portugueses", Lusit=E2nia, 1926, vol. III, 315-327. HARRISSE, Henry, Gaspar Corte-Real, Paris, 1883. HARRISSE, Henry, Les Corte Real et Leurs Voyages au Nouveau-Monde, Paris, 18= 83. LARSEN, Sofus, "Danmark og Portugal i det 15. Aarhundrede", Aarb=F8ger for Nordisk Oldkyndighed og Historie, n. 3, t. IX, 1919, 236-312 (trad. port. [ed. Jaime Cortes=E3o] Dinamarca e Portugal no S=E9culo XV, Lisboa: BNL, 198= 3). LIMA, Manuel C. Baptista de, "Uma Tentativa A=E7oriana de Coloniza=E7=E3o da= Ilha Denominada =B4Barcellona=B4 no S=E9culo XVI", in Actas do Congresso Internac= ional de Hist=F3ria dos Descobrimentos, vol. V, 1 part., Lisboa, 1961, 161-180. MAGALH=C3ES, Pedro; N=D3RTON, Manuel Artur, "Fagundes e a Descoberta do Canad=E1", in Actas do Congresso Internacional Bartolomeu Dias e a sua =C9po= ca, vol. II, Porto: Universidade do Porto - CNCDP, 1989, 403-482. MARQUES, Gilberto S., Pedra de Dighton, New York, 1930. PERES, Dami=E3o, "Considera=E7=F5es Relativas ao Projecto de Navega=E7=E3o O= cidental Gizado por Ferdinand Van Olmen em 1486", BSGL, Lisboa: SGL, 1952, 70 ser. (10-12), 343-348. SAUER, Carl O., Sixteenth Century North America, Berkeley - Los Angeles, 197= 5. VASCONCELOS, Ernesto de, "Early Portuguese Exploration of the North American Coast", O Instituto, Coimbra, 1915. VERLINDEN, Charles, Un Pr=E9curseur de Colomb: le Flamand Ferdinand Van Olme= n (1487), Coimbra, 1963. Hope this can be useful (sorry for any duplication, for I have send this message to MapHist and to Discovery, since the asking was made on both lists) Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 =46ax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras =46ax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* DESIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Mar 28 10:19:20 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA08197 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:19:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA09396. Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:18:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA09392 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:18:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA20512 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:18:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA29699 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:18:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12391 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:18:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38E06ACA.D536ADD1@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:18:18 +0200 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Joao Vaz & John Scolvus References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" wrote: > It seems to me that it is very difficult, from a Portuguese point of view > (with Portuguese sources), to have certainties about all this mess. I do > not know nothing in relation with Danish or Norwegian sources. I think you said all what could have been said about this matter. Brilliant ! The only Scandinavian source about this Danish/Portuguese travel I know about is a document from the mayor in Kiel written in the mid 1500's. And one more thing. Didrik Pining was an Norwegian noble man and not a Dane. Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Mar 28 11:03:42 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA10998 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:03:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id LAA09502. Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:03:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA09497 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:03:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA20663 (SMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:03:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 3062 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2000 09:03:15 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 28 Mar 2000 09:03:15 -0000 Message-ID: <38E07525.2894E5FC@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:02:29 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Joao Vaz Corte-Real Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO To José Anaya and Alfredo Marques. Dear José and Alfredo Here is a little more information about the mysterious Joao Vaz Corte-Real. It is extracted directly from my database of expeditions and voyages and gives a little more detail for Pining and Pothorst. I have added a little more bibliography. I have no access to the works of Cordeiro and Francisco de Souza, which seem to me to be quite important in this respect. Perhaps Alfredo can find them. Pre-Columbian voyages to North America have assumed a certain mystique and mythology for the sole reason that so little is known about them, or was recorded at the time. But it must be appreciated that the North Atlantic in the 15th century was awash with Portuguese, English and Nordic sailors and fishermen, who probably knew only too well the geography of the region and the surrounding coasts. As recorded in the "Icelandic Annals", English fishermen first visited Iceland in 1412, and from 1420 there was a continuous English trade with the island. Bristol fishermen were there from 1424. However, their voyages only become truly significant when they began to see the North Atlantic as a sea-route to Asia. Ray Howgego JOAO VAZ CORTE-REAL Portuguese navigator (d. 1496); a native of the Azores, father of GASPAR and MIGUEL CORTE-REAL (q.v.), and subsequently governor of Angra on Terceira. At some time during the 1470s he possibly undertook a voyage across the North Atlantic which resulted in a "discovery" of America some twenty years before Columbus. Documentary evidence is fragmentary (and originates from a much later date) but it appears that King Alfonso of Portugal entered into an agreement with Christian I of Denmark to investigate a westerly route to Asia. As a result a Danish expedition was despatched, commanded by the admirals HANS POTHORST and DIDERIK PINING. It is possible, and even likely, that this expedition was piloted by Joao Vaz Corte-Real, along with the Portuguese navigator ALVARO MARTINS HOMEM. Also present might have been the Norwegian navigator and pilot, JON SKOLP (also rendered as Johannes Scolpus or Scolvus, and sometimes called Scolnus Polonus, suggesting, misleadingly, that he was of Polish origin). The voyage is recorded in a letter from Carsten Grib to Christian III. The expedition proceeded by way of Iceland to Greenland, and then possibly to the coast of Labrador (called Bacalhaos = Stock-fish land). The discovery of Labrador is sometimes credited to Skolp in 1476. The dates most often given for this voyage are either 1472-74 or 1476-77, but it must be appreciated that the navigators concerned were professional seamen who spent most of their lives on the North Atlantic and probably made numerous voyages to the same regions, only one or two of which are recorded. John Barrow actually assumes a date prior to 1464, stating that, on the death of the Azorean captain Jacome Bruges, Corte-Real and Homem were awarded the captaincy of Terceira as a reward for their services, the commission being dated at Evora, 2nd April 1464. Barrow quotes his source for the voyage an early history of Iceland by Antonio Cordeiro, substantiated by Francisco de Souza's "Tratado das Ilhas Novas". Pining and Pothorst were Germans in Danish and Oldenburg service, and devoted many of their voyages to piracy, including that mentioned above. Pining was governor of all or part of Iceland from 1478, though without spending much time in the country. He is last heard of in 1490 as commandant of Vardohus. Pothorst took part in the maritime war between Denmark and England in 1484-90 and, according to the "Dansk Biografisk Leksikon", died at sea in or soon after the latter year. He had settled at Helsingor (in Denmark), where a portrait of him is preserved in the St. Mary church of the Carmelites. Olaus Magnus, in his "Description of the Northern Peoples" (1555), refers to Pining and Pothorst as "two notorious pirates" who had been "totally barred from the communities of men by a very strict decree of the kings of the North", and had been banished in 1494 to "the lofty rock, Hvitsark, which lies in the middle of the sea between Iceland and Greenland". Hvitsark is now regarded as a peak on the mainland of Greenland, south of Angmaggssalik, but the date quoted by Olaus is difficult to place. Bibliography (additional to that of Alfredo Marques): Cordeiro, Antonio: Historia Insulana (Lisbon 1717). Souza, Francisco de: Tradado das Ilhas novas … (Lisbon 1570). Kohl, J.G.: A history of the discovery of the east coast of North America …from 990 to …1578 (Portland, Maine 1869-1909, 8 vols). Barrow, John: A chronological history of voyages into the Arctic regions (London 1818; facsimile edn., Newton Abbot 1971). Dansk Biografisk Leksikon (Copenhagen 1979-84, 16 vols). Olaus Magnus: Historia de gentibus septentrionalibus (Rome 1555; Venice 1565; Basel 1567; Antwerp 1558; English trans., London 1658; Uppsala & Stockholm 1909-25, 4 vols; facsimile edns., Farnborough 1971 & Copenhagen 1972; ed. by P.G. Foote, Hakluyt Society, London 1996-98, 3 vols). From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Mar 28 13:52:53 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA20455 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:52:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA09777. Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:52:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA09773 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:52:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA21406 (SMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:52:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 41589 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2000 11:52:30 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 28 Mar 2000 11:52:30 -0000 Message-ID: <38E09CD4.8D2CF47D@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:51:48 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] An afterthought to Joao Vaz Corte-Real Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Pre-Columbian voyagers For those of you who can read Icelandic, there is a most provocative and scholarly work by B. Thorsteinsson titled "Enska oldin i sogu islendinga" (Reyjavik 1970). In it he provides a convincing argument for the existence of English ships on the west coast of Greenland as early as the 1420s. Even more, he attributes the decimation of the old Norse colonies on the coast of Greenland to English slaving expeditions, not to Eskimo attacks as is generally believed. English slaving voyages in the North Atlantic started in about 1420 and became so bad that in 1432 a treaty was concluded between England and Denmark demanding that all slaves should be returned to their native countries (1). Thorsteinsson even traces houses in the English ports where Icelandic and Eskimo slaves were recorded as being domiciled. By the 1430s the English pirates had assumed a high degree of notoriety on the coast of Iceland, often spending two or three seasons at Breidafjord, where Greenland and Markland voyages terminated. He argues that English seamen could not have failed to learn of the existence of both Markland (Labrador) and Greenland by the early decades of the 15th century. A letter from Pope Nicholas V to Bishop Marcellus, dated 1448 but concerning events some 30 years earlier, apparently refers to Eskimo "fleets" attacking the west Greenland colonies, burning homes and churches, and carrying large numbers into slavery. Thorsteinsson argues that it is inconceivable that the statement refers to the Eskimos, who did not take slaves, did not have fleets, and did not destroy houses with fire. He also cites an oral tradition recorded by Niels Egede (son of Hans Egede)(2) which clearly refers to the arrival of three slaving ships from Europe. This thesis is supported by the eminent historian F. Gad (3) and is considered sympathetically by Marcus (4). Strangely, no mention is made of our old friends Pothorst and Pining, who also must have spent much of their lives in this trade. (1) Diplomatarium Norvegicum, xx, 800 (ed. by Lagebeck and Urger, Oslo 1847 et seq.) (2) Ostermann: Niels Egedes Beskrivelse over Gronland (in Meddedelser om Gronland, bind. 120, Copenhagen) (3) Gad, F.: Gronlands historie (Copenhagen 1967). (4) Marcus, G.J.: The conquest of the North Atlantic (Woodbridge, Suffolk 1980, 1990, 1998). Hope this throws the cat amongst the pigeons ! Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Mar 28 15:10:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA25699 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:10:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA09838. Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:10:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA09834 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:10:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA21973 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:10:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA06284 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:10:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29459 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:10:22 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38E0AF3E.307E97A9@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:10:22 +0200 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] An afterthought to Joao Vaz Corte-Real References: <38E09CD4.8D2CF47D@easynet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Ray Howgego wrote: > Dear Pre-Columbian voyagers > > For those of you who can read Icelandic, there is a most provocative and > scholarly work by B. Thorsteinsson titled "Enska oldin i sogu > islendinga" (Reyjavik 1970). In it he provides a convincing argument > for the existence of English ships on the west coast of Greenland as > early as the 1420s. Even more, he attributes the decimation of the old > Norse colonies on the coast of Greenland to English slaving expeditions, > not to Eskimo attacks as is generally believed. According to Niels Lynnerup's book The Greenland Norse A Biological-anthropological Study DPC 1999 the Greenland Norse might have been raided by pirates, but not extincted because of it. Re: http://www.dpc.dk/Publications/MoG/MS24.1.html Pirates That the Norse were attacked by "pirates", i.e. Europeans, is a theory somewhat akin to the theories of eradication by Eskimos. Researchers have suggested English, Basque, Portuguese and German attackers (Gad 1984; Krogh 1982). This is based on accounts of "pirate" attacks on Iceland, whaling expeditions and early expeditions of discovery (e.g. John Cabot's expeditions to Newfoundland in 1497) (Kleivan 1984; Gad 1984; Fyllingsnes 1990), which suggest that there might have been contact with the Norsemen.15 However, even though an occasional pirate attack cannot be ruled out, it is difficult to imagine how they could have led to the complete extinction of the Norse settlements. As noted above, the Norse settlers lived fairly scattered, so it would only seem worthwhile for any attackers to raid the few major farms, primarily E47 Gardar. Raiding parties would have to spread out along all the fjords and valleys to plunder small farms and hamlets. There is no archaeological evidence for the "pirate" theories: for example no finds of weapons, and no indications that farms had been plundered (Gad 1984). As already mentioned in connection with the Eskimo theories, the osteological evidence suggests that some individuals from the Western Settlement might have been killed by slingshot, but the results were inconclusive. Even assuming high proportions of male deaths during war, much more massive warfare than suggested archaeologically or anthropologically would have to be postulated for this to account for the extinction of the Norse population. Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Mar 28 22:55:27 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA19008 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:55:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA10303. Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:55:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA10299 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:54:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA23835 (ESMTP). Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:54:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.204.246]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FS5GNC01.M2Q for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:52:24 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01bf98f7$2813e600$f6cc3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Re: Joao Vaz & John Scolvus Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:48:58 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO A spaniard, Francisco Lopez de Gomara, wrote a book, in 1551, titled "Historia general de las Indias". Possibly, he had information, now lost, because he says, talking about the Labrador Coast: "...also, men of Norway have gone there, with the pilot Joan Scolvo..." And talking about the "Costa de los bacallaos" (=coast of Newfounland and Labrador), he says: "...also Bretons and Danes (danish men) have gone to the Bacallaos..." ( expedition of Pining and Pothorst ?) These two travels, the first of norwegians, and the second of danes, obviusly, are two different travels. José Anaya anay@arrakis.es | |I think you said all what could have been said about this matter. Brilliant ! |The only Scandinavian source about this Danish/Portuguese travel |I know about is a document from the mayor in Kiel written in the mid 1500's. |And one more thing. Didrik Pining was an Norwegian noble man and not |a Dane. | |Geir Odden | | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 29 00:03:26 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA22975 (ESMTP). Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:03:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA10443. Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:02:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA10439 (ESMTP). Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:02:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f201.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.201] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA22956 (SMTP). Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:02:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 98479 invoked by uid 0); 28 Mar 2000 22:02:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20000328220207.98478.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 12.13.238.139 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:02:07 PST X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.139] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: RE: [EXP] Re: Joao Vaz & John Scolvus Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:02:07 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO We must be careful making distinctions between Danes and Norwegians because at different times in history Norway was a part of Denmark and lost its separate identity for long periods of time such that it may have been appropriate and correct to refer to someone as either or both Danish and/or Norwegian. Greg McIntosh ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 29 09:44:35 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA20488 (ESMTP). Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:44:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id JAA11841. Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:43:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA11837 (ESMTP). Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:43:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA20459 (SMTP). Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:43:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 45099 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2000 07:43:41 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 29 Mar 2000 07:43:41 -0000 Message-ID: <38E1B400.DBE70B21@easynet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:42:56 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Francisco de Ulloa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO A question about Francisco de Ulloa. On a quite different tack to my previous notes, can anybody tell me if the FRANCISCO DE ULLOA who explored the coast of Baja California in 1539-40 is the same person as the FRANCISCO DE ULLOA who explored the islands of southern Chile in 1553 ? The primary sources for these two voyages are quite distinct, and virtually no books cover both voyages in detail within the same pages. I have always regarded the two explorers as quite different, having the first Francisco dying in 1540. However, Ernest J. Goodman, in his "Explorers of South America" regards them as one and the same, but is this a mistake ? I would also be delighted to hear from anybody who can sort out the numerous Pacific pilots bearing the name of JUAN FERNANDEZ. There seem to be at least three, and possibly more. Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 29 13:11:56 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA03088 (ESMTP). Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:11:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA12229. Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:11:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA12225 (ESMTP). Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:11:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA26315 (ESMTP). Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:11:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA21673 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:11:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03320 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:11:13 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38E1E4D1.276DEF08@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:11:13 +0200 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Joao Vaz & John Scolvus References: <20000328220207.98478.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Gregory McIntosh wrote: > We must be careful making distinctions between Danes and Norwegians because > at different times in history Norway was a part of Denmark and lost its > separate identity for long periods of time such that it may have been > appropriate and correct to refer to someone as either or both Danish and/or > Norwegian. Norway was a sovereign nation until the Norwegian Council was purposed in 1536-1537. Until that time Norway and Denmark was two sovereign nations sharing the same king. Re: http://norway.origo.no/culture/guide/history/reformation.html To make history as accurated as possible Norwegians must be called what they were, namely Norwegians. Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Mar 29 17:15:41 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA16959 (ESMTP). Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:15:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA12593. Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:14:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA12589 (ESMTP). Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:14:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from strauss.siteprotect.com [64.26.0.44] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA27291 (ESMTP). Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:14:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from Rene2 (10dyn66.delft.casema.net [212.64.17.66]) by strauss.siteprotect.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA20948; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:14:23 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19700101010000.006a8c10@maphist.nl> X-Sender: maphist@maphist.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:18:49 +0200 To: Map History Discussion List From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: [EXP] Re: Columbus's Mother's Name Cc: discovery@win.tue.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Greg, wrong list. This discussion is on Discovery-list (to which list I "cc" this message, since I started this Columbus Mother's name discussion). (or was it an early April fools day message?) Peter At 14:26 28-3-00 PST, you wrote: >Emiliano Jos, "El Plan y la Genesis del descubrimientos Colombino," >, I [1979-80]. > >I have a note that on page 36 of the above article, "Terra Rubra" is >explained (rightly or wrongly) as the latinized form of Fortanarosa [sic, >Fontanarosa]. As mentioned earlier, Susanna Fontanarosa was Columbus's >mother's name. Terra Rubra is an epithet or cognomen occasionally used by >Bartolomew Columbus or Christopher Columbus or both at various times (do not >have the references handy right now); hence, Bartolomeo Colombo de Terra >Rubra. I seem to recollect that Terra Rubra may also have been a suburb or >district of Genoa, or a nearby town. > >But now we go to far afield again. > >Greg McIntosh >plusultra@hotmail.com >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115 3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands e-mail: p.vanderkrogt@geog.uu.nl Fax +31 15 212 6063 More information: http://cartography.geog.uu.nl/ YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Mar 30 02:25:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA11770 (ESMTP). Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:25:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA13710. Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:25:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA13706 (ESMTP). Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:24:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from uhura.concentric.net [206.173.118.93] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA11744 (ESMTP). Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:24:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff.concentric.net [206.173.118.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.9.1a/(98/12/15 5.12)) id TAA07325; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:24:46 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3 (ts010d37.hil-ny.concentric.net [206.173.16.241]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id TAA15575; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:24:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.20000329151921.008d5b20@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:19:21 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Joao Vaz & John Scolvus In-Reply-To: <38E1E4D1.276DEF08@eto.ericsson.se> References: <20000328220207.98478.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 01:11 PM 03/29/00 +0200, Geir Odden wrote: >Norway was a sovereign nation until the Norwegian Council was purposed in >1536-1537. Until that time Norway and Denmark was two sovereign nations sharing >the same king. > >Re: http://norway.origo.no/culture/guide/history/reformation.html > >To make history as accurated as possible Norwegians must be called what >they were, namely Norwegians. Well ---- Remember that we call all the Scandinavian explorers westward "Norsemen" even though they were politically Icelanders, Greenlanders or whatever. Similarly, in England the Viking raiders were called Danes even if they came from Norway. In fact, the term "Danish" was used for a long time very much the way we now use the term "Scandinavian." There will never be a completely satisfactory solution to this problem, and it's best to keep context in mind always. All best, Jim. James Enterline Author, _Viking America_ New York City Horn, Chelsea Wind Quintet KV2Z@amsat.org Fellow, The Explorers Club From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 5 09:43:56 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA16917 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:43:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id JAA09991. Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:42:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA09987 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:42:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA16863 (SMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:42:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 92092 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2000 07:42:05 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 5 Apr 2000 07:42:05 -0000 Message-ID: <38EAEDDE.3575952B@easynet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 08:40:14 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Pining and Pothorst: last word References: <38E852A4.DFC4606B@easynet.co.uk> <38E8FE36.27E1C413@eunet.at> <38E9920E.F1A88D71@easynet.co.uk> <38E9ADA1.2D6FC08B@eto.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO To Geir Odden: Dear Geir Thank you for the information on Didrik Pining. This leaves me even more confused than ever. I am beginning to wish I had never become involved in this discussion as it appears that we can both quote equal numbers of sources proving the opposite ! My only interest in this matter arose out of a desire to accurately complete a database article on Corte-Real, but nothing is ever that simple, particularly in the North Atlantic. I have not been to Hildesheim for many years, but I have visions of the good people of Hildesheim regarding Pining (as "discoverer of America") as a local hero. And the poor pupils of the Didrik Pining Schule are probably painting pictures of him and writing essays about him. Is it conceivable that they have the wrong man ? Perhaps we have a subscriber from that region who could set the matter straight. There are probably far more sources we could find in the vast literature of the Hanseatic League, but I will need to leave that for another life. I think that other subscribers are growing weary of this repartie, and I will move on to concentrate on other things. I am still waiting in vain for responses to my questions on the two (?) Francisco de Ulloa's, the three (?) Juan Fernandez's, and on the Pacific navigators Thomas Peche and John Strong. Anyway, many thanks for the references, even if they are contradictory. I shall use them all. Ray Howgego. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 5 17:47:40 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA17989 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:47:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA11361. Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:47:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA11357 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:47:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f45.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.45] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA28900 (SMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:47:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 42607 invoked by uid 0); 5 Apr 2000 15:46:55 -0000 Message-ID: <20000405154655.42606.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 12.13.238.140 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 08:46:55 PDT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.140] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Pining and Pothorst: last word Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 08:46:55 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >the three (?) Juan Fernandez's, and on the Pacific navigators Thomas Peche >and John Strong. > >Anyway, many thanks for the references, even if they are contradictory. >I shall use them all. > >Ray Howgego. I have some interest in early sixteenth century exploration in the North Atlantic. What was your question regarding Juan Fernandez? Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Apr 9 21:46:25 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA21144 (ESMTP). Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:46:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id VAA20553. Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:44:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA20549 (ESMTP). Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:44:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id VAA14318 (ESMTP). Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:44:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d052.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.116]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA09864 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:44:39 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <005101bfa25c$2f606280$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "henrique" To: References: <000601bfa23a$74dff360$6ecf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Subject: Re: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:42:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > Dear Jorge: > On the topic of collaboration of Jews in the first discoveries > of Portugal and in the travel of Columbus, I have read in a book titled > "the tordesillas line", of the author Agustin Remesal", > that: In Juan's II Court (of Portugal)...four Jewish astronomers worked... > they invented the "tables of Inclination of the sun for navigators' use". > They was: Masters Moises, Josef (doctor of the King), > Rodrigo and Diego". The last was a Spaniard. Do you know if this is > authentic? > Thanks Jose Anaya > > Master Josef and Rodrigo were with the king John when he died in 1495, and Diego was there too. Neverthless i suppose that Diego was Diego Ortiz, the spanish bishop that went to Portugal after 75-76 war (between Afonso V of Portugal and Isabel/Fernando of Castilla/Aragon). He was astronomer too and teacher in Salamanca before the war. I can't remember (now) the name of Moises, but it is possible that was another King's physician or astronomer/astrologer. All of them worked in astronomy and we know that Master Josef and Rodrigo went to Guinea in 1485 to do some observations, taking heights to the Sun and some notes to an astronomical table (and perhaps for a map). Probably they (every one of them) have done the table that it is in a portuguese almanach of that times (before the translation of almanach perpetuum, done for Master Josef in 96). And certainly the first Sun declination tables for navegation have been done by them. I meen Zacuto (perhaps, because he went to Portugal in 92), Josef, Rodrigo and Ortiz (or more) and i have an intution of a relation ship between the portuguese astronomers/astrologers and a group from Salamanca (from where came Zacuto). That's why Diego Ortiz was been received with open arms in Portugal after the war. We can intuit a kind of scientific team, but we have no evidence about that. I will confirm to you the name of Moises. Jorge Matos