From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Apr 2 09:36:43 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA07803 (ESMTP). Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:36:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id JAA03451. Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:35:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA03447 (ESMTP). Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:35:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay8.Austria.EU.net [193.154.160.146] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA07780 (ESMTP). Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:34:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eunet.at (dialup001.ap05-wien.at.eu.net [193.80.106.1]) by relay8.Austria.EU.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16304 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:34:57 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38E6F83E.725A0D40@eunet.at> Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:35:26 +0200 From: HFK Organization: Castaway Network Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] Austria update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Ladies and Gentlemen, I just want to let you know, that I updated the History of the Austrian Polar Exploration on my site http://www.arctic.at (sorry - in German only) Regards Hermann F. Koerbel ****************************************** ARCTIC and ANTARCTIC Advice Agency Austria NEW http://www.arctic.at NEW the only true POLAR INFORMATION in Austria ****************************************** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Apr 2 20:42:44 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA00491 (ESMTP). Sun, 2 Apr 2000 20:42:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id UAA04068. Sun, 2 Apr 2000 20:42:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA04064 (ESMTP). Sun, 2 Apr 2000 20:42:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fep03-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.202] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA12761 (ESMTP). Sun, 2 Apr 2000 20:42:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [194.65.204.177] ([194.65.202.20]) by fep03-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000402184447.BOAN495.fep03-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.204.177]> for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:44:47 +0100 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38E06ACA.D536ADD1@eto.ericsson.se> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:42:54 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Joao Vaz & John Scolvus Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >"Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" wrote: > >> It seems to me that it is very difficult, from a Portuguese point of view >> (with Portuguese sources), to have certainties about all this mess. I do >> not know nothing in relation with Danish or Norwegian sources. > >I think you said all what could have been said about this matter. Brilliant ! >The only Scandinavian source about this Danish/Portuguese travel >I know about is a document from the mayor in Kiel written in the mid 1500's. >And one more thing. Didrik Pining was an Norwegian noble man and not >a Dane. > >Geir Odden It is a good thing when it is possible to keep discussions focused in its true objectives, and to maintain a polite tone with other people who we don't know personnaly and against whom we don't have any complaint. And it is apropriate for a scholar to speak about what he knows, to shut up about what he does not knows, and to say so (honestly admit and state that, from the beginning). That is what I did. Of course, from a specialized point of view, I don't know nothing (unfortunately) on the History of Norway or the History of Denmark. Exactly the same as Norwegian or a Dane who don't know nothing on Portuguese History, or Genoese History. Of course that does not mean that I have less simpathy for Norway or the Norwegians in general (or Denmark and the Danes). On the contrary, I admire them very much, not only by their courage as sailors in the past but also by other reasons (such as their international humanitarian efforts in the present). When I don't know the exact identification of a navigator, either Norse or Dane, I usually prefer to use the expression 'Scandinavian', which, as far as I know, can be used for both without any distortion, but it is possible that, following some other previous authors who made the mistake of considering a proven Norwegian as a 'Dane', or a proven Dane as a 'Norwegian', I can make that same mistake (but that is not any effort, on my behalf, to steal glories from the Norwegians and give them to the Danes... it is only a general way of referring to both). And my ignorance of Scandinavia's History is not so big as to ignore what in the previous postings by Gregory McIntosh and James Enterline was so well defined: i.e. the fact that through out their Medieval History Denmark and Norway had many time very close links, and their sailors were many times named by others, generally, as Danes or Norwegians (depending on the place where they are, and not the place from where they came from). That is the only reason why I prefer to use the more general term of 'Scandinavians'. I don't think there is any deliberate error, or any deliberate distortion, on that. And when I learn that some navigator is not a 'Dane', and he is a proven Norwegian, of course I am grateful for the information, and I will prefer to call him, in the future, a 'Scandinavian' or a 'Norwegian'. If that sailor called Pining was a proven Norwegian, of course I will prefer to call him, in the future, as a 'Scandinavian' or a 'Norwegian' sailor. Would Mr. Odden like it, if other people would comment on the brilliance of his philological and historical conclusions, based on what he thinks it is the meaning, in Norwegian language, of the Genoese name of a Genoese woman? The name 'Fontanarossa' is a typical Mediterranean (Italian and Genoese), family name, and it means, literally, 'Red Fountain'. How many theories, from how many 'nationalities', have been put forward, since last century big international and national Commemorations, about the 'real name' and the 'real nationality' of Columbus, and his family name, and the origins of his family and him? Salvador de Madariaga wanted to consider them as Catalan Jews... some Galician authors wanted to consider them as Galicians from Pontevedra... more than half dozen Portuguese authors wanted to consider Columbus as coming from Portugal... (including those who wanted to consider his family as coming from a Portuguese village in the south called 'Vila Ruiva' (Red Village) which is similar to the Italian, or Genoese, or Catalan, or Portuguese, 'Terra Rubra' (Red Land). So what shall we conclude? Are these any proofs? Is there any real evidence? I don't think so. I think that the Norwegians, and the Portuguese (and some other nations through out History) have been great navigators in the past -- and the truth is that they don't need the man and the myth Christopher Columbus... (who, in fact, in his time, was a mediocre navigator, from a technical point of view... and was responsible for a 'fruitful accumulation of errors'... and who ended up discovering nothing... since he didn't knew what he had discovered... and he kept deluding himself, and deluding others, until the end, about the true identification of the 'discovered' new land... and he commited the enormous error of caling 'Indians' to these people over there... etc.). I think that the Norwegians, and the Portuguese, etc., don't need that kind of glories. Most of all if the 'evidence' proving the Portuguese, or Norwegian (or Catalan, or Galician, or French, etc....) theories is so fragile such as philological meanings and semblances of names, cabalistic signatures, hidden misteries, and similar things. I prefer concrete, contemporary and indisputable evidence, such as the fact that in 1507 the cartographer Martin Waldsemuller wrote clearly in his map that the man was Genoese... I really have not much more to say on questions related to 'Columbus real identity' (most of all after the inflamed controversies held up by the time of the 1992 Celebrations...), and I prefer to move forward to other issues on the history of geographical discoveries. With best wishes. Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 Fax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras Fax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* DESIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 3 10:15:25 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA05291 (ESMTP). Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:15:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA05446. Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:15:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA05442 (ESMTP). Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:14:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA05262 (SMTP). Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:14:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 49475 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2000 08:14:54 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 3 Apr 2000 08:14:54 -0000 Message-ID: <38E852A4.DFC4606B@easynet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:13:24 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Pining and Pothorst: Germans? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The Dansk Biografisk Leksikon, and other sources, give both Pining and Pothorst "German" nationality. The Leksikon contains an article on both (vol. XI, pp. 381, 459): Diderick Pining and Hans Pothorst were Germans in Danish and Oldenburg service, chiefly as privateers. (Oldenburg is now in Schleswig-Holstein) They took part in voyages of exploration to Greenland waters c.1472, engaging as piracy as they went. Pining was governor of all or part of Iceland from 1478, though without spending much time in the country. He is last heard of in 1490 as commandant of Vardohus. Pothorst took part in the maritime war between Denmark and England in 1484-90 and died at sea in or soon after the latter year. He had settled at Helsingor (in Denmark), where a portrait of him is preserved in the St. Mary church of the Carmelites. [summarised from a note in P.G. Foote's Hakluyt Society edn. of Olaus Magnus, London 1996] See also: Dietrich KOHL, Dietrich Pining und Hans Pothorst. Zwei Schiffsführer aus den Tagen der Hanse und der großen Entdeckungen, in: Hansische Geschichtsblätter ll. 57, 1932, S. 152 See also: Gunnar GUNNARSON, Das Ratzel um Didrik Pining, Reyjavik?, 1939. [The Mystery of Didrik Pining] There is actually a school in Hildesheim, near Hanover, called the Didrik Pining Schule. Olaus Magnus, in his "Description of the Northern Peoples" (1555), refers to Pining and Pothorst as "two notorious pirates" who had been "totally barred from the communities of men by a very strict decree of the kings of the North", and had been banished in 1494 to "the lofty rock, Hvitsark, which lies in the middle of the sea between Iceland and Greenland". Hvitsark is now regarded as a peak on the mainland of Greenland, south of Angmaggssalik, but the date quoted by Olaus is difficult to place. Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 3 10:15:40 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA05300 (ESMTP). Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:15:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA05438. Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:14:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA05434 (ESMTP). Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:14:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA14346 (ESMTP). Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:14:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA19019 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:14:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23253 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:14:03 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38E852CA.E146C0F@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:14:03 +0200 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Joao Vaz & John Scolvus References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" wrote: > Would Mr. Odden like it, if other people would comment on the brilliance of > his philological and historical conclusions, based on what he thinks it is > the meaning, in Norwegian language, of the Genoese name of a Genoese woman? > The name 'Fontanarossa' is a typical Mediterranean (Italian and Genoese), > family name, and it means, literally, 'Red Fountain'. It is not the speculations of Mr. Odden, but years of study of a man called Svein-Magnus Grodys. An author, Tor Borch Sannes, used his material about Columbus, added some of his own and wrote a book about it nine years ago: Christopher Columbus : - en europeer fra Norge?__Sannes, Tor Borch__ Oslo_ _Norsk maritimt forl. , cop. 1991__235p__ISBN: 82-90319-12-6 They think Roos af Ervalla could have been "Genoesed" to Fontanarossa. According to Sannes the families Roos af Ervalla and Bonde had thight relations with eachother. And the relations between Domenico Bonde and Susanna Roos af Ervalla was maybe so thight that a Christopher Bonde was made in Nordfjord, Norway around 1450. Earlier there was an Norwegian Domenico working as an tax collector in the Columba monastery in Iona, Scotland. According to the author some documents contains the name Dominicus de Columbo refering to Columbus's father. Could the professions Taxator and Texator have been mixed up ? At the time when king Karl Knutsson Bonde was elected as a king of Norway in 1448-50 Domenico left his job as a guardian of the town gate in Genoa. He returned Genoa after king Karls defeat in Norway and got his earlier job back. > I think that the Norwegians, and the Portuguese, etc., don't need that kind > of glories. Most of all if the 'evidence' proving the Portuguese, or > Norwegian (or Catalan, or Galician, or French, etc....) theories is so > fragile such as philological meanings and semblances of names, cabalistic > signatures, hidden misteries, and similar things. What about the Colon coat of arms ? An beam slantwise with three stars. Also used by the Nordfjord Bonde family. Can somebody tell the list some more about this Colon coat of arms and its origin ? And the statement of Fernando Colon in his book that the meaning of their familyname was farmer in another language. The latin interpretion of their familyname was Colonus meaning farmer, just like the Norwegian Bonde. It must be possible to turn down some (all) of the statements above for the fine scholars on this list. If you can't, maybe there is some truth in the book. Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 3 22:25:37 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA16305 (ESMTP). Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:25:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA06895. Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:25:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA06891 (ESMTP). Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:24:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay8.Austria.EU.net [193.154.160.146] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA16281 (ESMTP). Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:24:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eunet.at (dialup248.ap08-wien.at.eu.net [193.80.106.248]) by relay8.Austria.EU.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29019 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:24:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38E8FE36.27E1C413@eunet.at> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:25:26 +0200 From: HFK Organization: Castaway Network Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Pining and Pothorst: Germans? References: <38E852A4.DFC4606B@easynet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO You answered the question I just wanted to ask, because I found the the same information in a brochure of the "Deutsches Schiffahrtsmuseum Bremerhaven" (published 1976) and could not find out more about Pining and Pothorst. Thanks Hermann F. Koerbel ****************************************** ARCTIC and ANTARCTIC Advice Agency Austria NEW http://www.arctic.at NEW the only true POLAR INFORMATION in Austria ****************************************** Ray Howgego wrote: > The Dansk Biografisk Leksikon, and other sources, give both Pining and > Pothorst "German" nationality. The Leksikon contains an article on both > (vol. XI, pp. 381, 459): > > Diderick Pining and Hans Pothorst were Germans in Danish and Oldenburg > service, chiefly as privateers. (Oldenburg is now in > Schleswig-Holstein) They took part in voyages of exploration to > Greenland waters c.1472, engaging as piracy as they went. Pining was > governor of all or part of Iceland from 1478, though without spending > much time in the country. He is last heard of in 1490 as commandant of > Vardohus. Pothorst took part in the maritime war between Denmark and > England in 1484-90 and died at sea in or soon after the latter year. He > had settled at Helsingor (in Denmark), where a portrait of him is > preserved in the St. Mary church of the Carmelites. [summarised from a > note in P.G. Foote's Hakluyt Society edn. of Olaus Magnus, London 1996] > > See also: Dietrich KOHL, Dietrich Pining und Hans Pothorst. Zwei > Schiffsführer aus den Tagen der Hanse und der großen Entdeckungen, in: > Hansische Geschichtsblätter ll. 57, 1932, S. 152 > > See also: Gunnar GUNNARSON, Das Ratzel um Didrik Pining, Reyjavik?, > 1939. [The Mystery of Didrik Pining] > > There is actually a school in Hildesheim, near Hanover, called the > Didrik Pining Schule. > > Olaus Magnus, in his "Description of the Northern Peoples" (1555), > refers to Pining and Pothorst as "two notorious pirates" who had been > "totally barred from the communities of men by a very strict decree of > the kings of the North", and had been banished in 1494 to "the lofty > rock, Hvitsark, which lies in the middle of the sea between Iceland and > Greenland". Hvitsark is now regarded as a peak on the mainland of > Greenland, south of Angmaggssalik, but the date quoted by Olaus is > difficult to place. > > Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Apr 4 08:58:41 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA15449 (ESMTP). Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:58:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id IAA07735. Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:58:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA07731 (ESMTP). Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:58:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA15443 (SMTP). Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:58:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 15961 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2000 06:57:40 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 4 Apr 2000 06:57:40 -0000 Message-ID: <38E9920E.F1A88D71@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 07:56:14 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Pining and Pothorst: Germans? References: <38E852A4.DFC4606B@easynet.co.uk> <38E8FE36.27E1C413@eunet.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO To Hermann Koerbel et al.: A search through the online catalogue of the Hildesheim University Library brought up the following book: P. PINI: Der Hildesheimer Didrik Pining als Entdecker Amerikas, als Admiral und Gouverneur von Island im Dienste der Könige von Dänemark, Norwegen u. Schweden (Hildesheim 1971). I think this might have established his nationality for good. This book is also listed as available from a bookseller in Hanover (for DM 12). Unfortunately the Didrik Pining Schule in Hildesheim has no Internet link. Best wishes Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Apr 4 10:55:25 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA22042 (ESMTP). Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:55:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA07961. Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:54:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA07957 (ESMTP). Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:53:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA20321 (ESMTP). Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:53:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA07613 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:53:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16354 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:53:54 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38E9ADA1.2D6FC08B@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:53:53 +0200 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Pining and Pothorst: Germans? References: <38E852A4.DFC4606B@easynet.co.uk> <38E8FE36.27E1C413@eunet.at> <38E9920E.F1A88D71@easynet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Ray Howgego wrote: > P. PINI: Der Hildesheimer Didrik Pining als Entdecker Amerikas, als > Admiral und Gouverneur von Island im Dienste der Könige von Dänemark, > Norwegen u. Schweden (Hildesheim 1971). > > I think this might have established his nationality for good. This book > is also listed as available from a bookseller in Hanover (for DM 12). Some Polish peoples claims the same about Jon Skolp being a Polish man that discovered America. According to Helge Ingstad, Jon Skolp and Didrik Pining was Norwegians. Here is what Ingstad says about Didrik Pining in his book The Norse Discovery of America__Volume two__Universitetsforlaget 1985__ISBN 82-00-07039-5 According to Daae (1882:234ff), Didrik Pining was a Norwegian nobleman, he is described as having been governor, hirdstjori, of all Iceland and, in 1478, as one of the most famous men there. He also gained fame as a matchless freebooter in the northern waters; it seems that the King of Denmark for some time employed him to seize English and Hanseatic ships. The sources have several references to him as a prominent member of the circle close to the king. When King Hans seized Gotland in 1487, Pining took part in the campaign, probably as commander of the Dano- Norwegian squadron. In 1489 he was one of the Norwegian noblemen who acclaimed the King's son, Christian II, in Copenhagen. In 1490 he was apparently stationed as officer at Vardoehus, probably he was commander in chief of northern Norway at that time. A.W Brøgger and Fridtjof Nansen also tells almost the same story. In Nansen's "In Northern Mists" he also adds: In August and September of 1490 Didrik Pining took part at the decision of a large inheritance case in Bergen. Pothorst was a man from Hildesheim, Gemany, Pining is most likely Norwegian. Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Apr 4 20:09:42 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA06241 (ESMTP). Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:09:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id UAA08662. Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:09:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA08658 (ESMTP). Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:09:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mercurio.feedback.net.ar [200.16.157.8] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA23920 (ESMTP). Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:09:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [200.41.173.84] (versa080.feedback.net.ar [200.41.173.84]) by mail.feedback.net.ar (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA28555 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:08:58 -0300 Message-Id: <200004041808.PAA28555@mail.feedback.net.ar> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 15:12:08 -0300 Subject: [EXP] Latin interpretation From: "Fabian Martin" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > >The latin interpretion of their > familyname was Colonus meaning farmer, just like the Norwegian Bonde. The "latin interpretation" for Colombo/Colon/Columbus should be dove or pidgeon, not farmer, I think. -- Fabian Martin From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 5 05:48:01 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA06745 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 05:48:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA09707. Wed, 5 Apr 2000 05:46:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA09703 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 05:46:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA06713 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 05:46:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from portolangroup.com ([12.77.132.186]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000404182218.LXHD14995.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@portolangroup.com> for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:22:18 +0000 Message-ID: <38EA32D7.D7822E72@portolangroup.com> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 14:22:16 -0400 From: Phil Stover Organization: The Portolan Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Several questions Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------DA8F06B6064B6D05E2628F6B" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------DA8F06B6064B6D05E2628F6B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: I just subscribed to the discovery list. I look forward to reading and learning. Several questions: 1. Does anyone have an email address for Charles Hudson of the University of Georgia? I would like to ask him a few questions regarding his de Soto book. 2. Is anyone aware of any current ongoing research into de Soto's journey, especially the Florida portion? I know this route business has been studied ad nauseum. I am interested in that I have gathered a library of many of the books written on the subject going back to the early 19th century. I have yet to find a study of the route issue that really impresses me as scholarly and not designed to validate an already held opinion. I really thought I had found it in Hudson's book. However, he has de Soto in a small brigantine in Charlotte harbor unable to get back to his ship. In the next paragraph, de Soto is off Longboat Key and sailing into Tampa Harbor, still apparently in his brigantine! The distance from Charlotte Harbor to Longboat to Tampa is many many miles. There are no transitional statements as to how he got from Charlotte Harbor to Longboat to Tampa. Sorry for going on so. I would appreciate any insight into current scholarship. Perhaps all has been said that can be said. I have no ax to grind on this issue. I am surprised however that some of the books in my library that are the self-published "amateurish" "stuff" seem to be the most carefully researched. It is all very confusing to me. my best, Phil Stover --------------DA8F06B6064B6D05E2628F6B Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="pstover.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Phil Stover Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pstover.vcf" begin:vcard n:Stover;Phil tel;fax:941 322 0458 tel;work:941 322 8427 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.portolangroup.com org:The Portolan Group adr:;;4464 Hidden River Road;Sarasota;FL;34240; version:2.1 email;internet:pstover@portolangroup.com title:President end:vcard --------------DA8F06B6064B6D05E2628F6B-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 5 08:26:53 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA13268 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:26:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id IAA09861. Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:25:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA09857 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:25:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fw-us-hou-2.bmc.com [198.207.223.251] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA13195 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:25:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ec01-hou.bmc.com (ec01-hou.bmc.com [172.17.0.150]) by tangelo.bmc.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA25486 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:24:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: by ec01-hou.bmc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2G8N6SLQ>; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:24:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Cohen, Izzy" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:24:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The Hebrew interpretation of Colombo would be aiyin-lamed-oh-mem bet-alef 3olam ba? = the next world, the world to come The 3=aiyin had a G/K velar sound as in Gaza. Compare globe < late ME < MF globe < L globus = round body, ball, sphere izzy_cohen@bmc.com -----Original Message----- From: Fabian Martin [mailto:fmartin@dd.com.ar] Sent: Tuesday, 04 Apr 2000 20:12 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Latin interpretation >The latin interpretion of their > familyname was Colonus meaning farmer, just like the Norwegian Bonde. The "latin interpretation" for Colombo/Colon/Columbus should be dove or pidgeon, not farmer, I think. Fabian Martin From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 5 11:59:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA25214 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:59:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id LAA10191. Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:57:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA10187 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:57:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailx3.dacom.co.kr [203.252.3.75] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA25097 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:57:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from savenije.pop3.chollian.net ([164.124.202.210]) by mailx3.dacom.co.kr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA23390 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:56:17 +0900 (KST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.20000405185953.02897af0@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 19:00:18 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Are you trying to tell us Colombus came from Israel ;-) At 03:24 PM 4/5/00, you wrote: >The Hebrew interpretation of Colombo would be >aiyin-lamed-oh-mem bet-alef 3olam ba? = >the next world, the world to come > >The 3=aiyin had a G/K velar sound as in Gaza. >Compare globe < late ME < MF globe < L globus >= round body, ball, sphere > >izzy_cohen@bmc.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: Fabian Martin [mailto:fmartin@dd.com.ar] >Sent: Tuesday, 04 Apr 2000 20:12 >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: [EXP] Latin interpretation > > >The latin interpretion of their > > familyname was Colonus meaning farmer, just like the Norwegian Bonde. > >The "latin interpretation" for Colombo/Colon/Columbus should be dove or >pidgeon, not farmer, I think. >Fabian Martin > ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 5 13:17:39 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA00790 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:17:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA10430. Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:15:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA10426 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:15:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fw-us-hou-1.bmc.com [198.207.223.250] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA27260 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:15:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ec01-hou.bmc.com (ec01-hou.bmc.com [172.17.0.150]) by tangelo.bmc.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA14237; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 06:15:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: by ec01-hou.bmc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2G8N66VP>; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 06:15:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Cohen, Izzy" To: discovery@win.tue.nl, adam&eve@henny-savenije.demon.nl Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo --> 2 corrections to my body-part maps Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 06:15:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Henny Savenije wrote: > Are you trying to tell us Colombus came from Israel ;-) No. But maybe some of his ancestors were well-traveled Phoenicians :-?=20 I found the following two errors on my (thought to be Phoenician) anthropomorphic maps: 1- Cappadocia was wrongly identified as KaF-YaD =3D palm of hand.=20 It should be KiFooF-YaD =3D elbow. In addition to being spelled with two Ps, Cappadocia is located precisely where [Hermes'] elbow needs to be. 2- Algeria was wrongly identified as eL + GaRon =3D the throat.=20 It should be derived from LeXi =3D cheek (of face). By both shape and location, cheek is a better match than throat.=20 The het in lamed-het-yod LeXi became a (French) J-sound.=20 A similar change occurred with the het in het-bet-shin=20 XaBaSH which became the J in Djibouti. [Both Algeria and Djibouti were French colonies.] XaBaSH is the Hebrew name for the area now known as Ethiopia. It is a reversal of SHoFKHah =3D urethra. Eritrea is derived from Greek our=E9thra =3D urethra. Ethiopia, Eritrea and Djibouti are all adjacent to the Red Sea. The Hebrew name for the Red Sea is Yam SooF =3D Reed Sea, a euphemism for its reversal, Yam PoS =3D the vaginal sea. Now you know why it was called=20 Mare Rubio =3D the Red Sea. If you want a complete up-to-date copy of these body-part maps=20 [a male body from the Ukraine to Yemen =3D right, and a female body=20 from Morocco to Somalia =3D left], I will send them to you by email. Best regards, Israel Cohen izzy_cohen@bmc.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 5 14:19:12 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA05162 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:19:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA10685. Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:13:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA10681 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:12:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailx3.dacom.co.kr [203.252.3.75] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA04928 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:12:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from savenije.pop3.chollian.net ([164.124.165.49]) by mailx3.dacom.co.kr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA20043; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 21:11:26 +0900 (KST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.20000405211315.00c4cb30@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:15:24 +0900 To: "Cohen, Izzy" , discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo --> 2 corrections to my body-part maps In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 08:15 PM 4/5/00, Cohen, Izzy wrote: >Henny Savenije wrote: > > Are you trying to tell us Colombus came from Israel ;-) > >No. But maybe some of his ancestors were well-traveled >Phoenicians :-? Actually the chances that this is so, are not unlikely, with the low population figures every now and then chances are even pretty high. >I found the following two errors on my (thought to be >Phoenician) anthropomorphic maps: Actually I have seen this before, but do you have this somewhere on a website?? ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 5 16:19:52 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA12495 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:19:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA10990. Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:18:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA10986 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:17:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA12395 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:17:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from seanet.com (ip-64-38-140-67.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.67]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA28324; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <38EB3E9D.18D96875@seanet.com> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 06:24:45 -0700 From: "Paul D. Buell" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl CC: adam&eve@henny-savenije.demon.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo --> 2 corrections to mybody-part maps References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO And here I thought Colombus was really an Icelander. We live and learn. PDBuell "Cohen, Izzy" wrote: > Henny Savenije wrote: > > Are you trying to tell us Colombus came from Israel ;-) > > No. But maybe some of his ancestors were well-traveled > Phoenicians :-? > > I found the following two errors on my (thought to be > Phoenician) anthropomorphic maps: > > 1- Cappadocia was wrongly identified as KaF-YaD = palm of hand. > It should be KiFooF-YaD = elbow. In addition to being spelled > with two Ps, Cappadocia is located precisely where [Hermes'] > elbow needs to be. > > 2- Algeria was wrongly identified as eL + GaRon = the throat. > It should be derived from LeXi = cheek (of face). By both > shape and location, cheek is a better match than throat. > The het in lamed-het-yod LeXi became a (French) J-sound. > A similar change occurred with the het in het-bet-shin > XaBaSH which became the J in Djibouti. [Both Algeria and > Djibouti were French colonies.] > > XaBaSH is the Hebrew name for the area now known as Ethiopia. > It is a reversal of SHoFKHah = urethra. Eritrea is derived > from Greek ouréthra = urethra. Ethiopia, Eritrea and Djibouti > are all adjacent to the Red Sea. The Hebrew name for the Red > Sea is Yam SooF = Reed Sea, a euphemism for its reversal, > Yam PoS = the vaginal sea. Now you know why it was called > Mare Rubio = the Red Sea. > > If you want a complete up-to-date copy of these body-part maps > [a male body from the Ukraine to Yemen = right, and a female body > from Morocco to Somalia = left], I will send them to you by email. > > Best regards, > > Israel Cohen > izzy_cohen@bmc.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 5 17:39:43 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA17630 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:39:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA11321. Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:39:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA11317 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:39:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mercurio.feedback.net.ar [200.16.157.8] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA28856 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:39:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [200.41.173.80] (versa076.feedback.net.ar [200.41.173.80]) by mail.feedback.net.ar (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA14880 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:38:53 -0300 Message-Id: <200004051538.MAA14880@mail.feedback.net.ar> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:24:25 -0300 Subject: Re: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo From: "Fabian Martin" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I think there might be something I'm missing here: I wrote about the Latin meaning of the word Columbus' name derivated from. Why should be a Hebrew "interpretation"? I mean, it's not an Hebrew name. Columbus could mean anything in, for example, Maori's language, but that shouldn't suggest anything. Or it should? Am I missing some important information here? -- Fabian Martin ---------- >From: "Cohen, Izzy" >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo >Date: Wed, Apr 5, 2000, 3:24 AM > > The Hebrew interpretation of Colombo would be > aiyin-lamed-oh-mem bet-alef 3olam ba? = > the next world, the world to come > > The 3=aiyin had a G/K velar sound as in Gaza. > Compare globe < late ME < MF globe < L globus > = round body, ball, sphere > > izzy_cohen@bmc.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Fabian Martin [mailto:fmartin@dd.com.ar] > Sent: Tuesday, 04 Apr 2000 20:12 > To: discovery@win.tue.nl > Subject: [EXP] Latin interpretation > >>The latin interpretion of their >> familyname was Colonus meaning farmer, just like the Norwegian Bonde. > > The "latin interpretation" for Colombo/Colon/Columbus should be dove or > pidgeon, not farmer, I think. > Fabian Martin > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 5 19:55:27 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA24431 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:55:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA11644. Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:54:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA11640 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:54:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id TAA06419. Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:54:42 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200004051754.TAA06419@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Phoenician Coins To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:54:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The sender of the original message has been added to the list of permitted posters. Andre Engels, list manager. ----- Forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- Speaking of Phoenicians, I made a troubling discovery recently that perhaps some of you could help me out with. While visiting an antiques store in Northampton, I came across a familiar looking coin or medallion for sale. Closer inspection showed it to be a specimen of the coins discussed by Barry Fell and Gloria Farley as Carthaginian coins, evidence for early transatlantic crossings. I have also published on this series of coins, see: http://hometown.aol.com/mamca/myhomepage/index.html http://phoenicia.org/press.html Coins of this type (many with interesting variations) are reportedly found scattered over the eastern USA from Connecticut to Nebraska. Trouble is, the Northampton specimen is in excellent condition, not corroded like many of the others in the series. This leds me to believe that these coins are some type of fake or hoax, but I am not certain about this and it is still possible that the coin dates from antiquity. It has a thin coat of lacquer that might help explain its good preservation. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to directly date bronze coins of this type. If it is a phoney, some one went to a lot of trouble to scatter these specimens across America. What was the motive? If they prove genuine then they would represent the best evidence yet for Atlantic crossings in antiquity. Many thanks, Mark McMenamin ----- End of forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 5 20:13:07 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA25846 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:13:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id UAA11675. Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:13:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA11671 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:12:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from darius.concentric.net [207.155.198.79] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA25841 (ESMTP). Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:12:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.198.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.9.1a/(98/12/15 5.12)) id OAA07498; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:12:51 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3 (ts012d11.nyh-ny.concentric.net [208.36.124.71]) by newman.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id OAA24874; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.20000405110020.008d36b0@pop3.concentric.net> X-Sender: jenterli@pop3.concentric.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:00:20 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: James Enterline Subject: Re: [EXP] Pining and Pothorst: last word In-Reply-To: <38EAEDDE.3575952B@easynet.co.uk> References: <38E852A4.DFC4606B@easynet.co.uk> <38E8FE36.27E1C413@eunet.at> <38E9920E.F1A88D71@easynet.co.uk> <38E9ADA1.2D6FC08B@eto.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 08:40 AM 04/05/00 +0100, Ray Howgego wrote: > ... >I think that other subscribers are growing weary of this repartie, and I >will move on to concentrate on other things. Certainly not me. I'd be very interested in a common resolution. Jim. James Enterline Author, _Viking America_ New York City Horn, Chelsea Wind Quintet KV2Z@amsat.org Fellow, The Explorers Club From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Apr 6 10:42:07 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA07475 (ESMTP). Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:42:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA13142. Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:41:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA13138 (ESMTP). Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:41:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fw-us-hou-2.bmc.com [198.207.223.251] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA01991 (ESMTP). Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:41:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ec01-hou.bmc.com (ec01-hou.bmc.com [172.17.0.150]) by tangelo.bmc.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA29759 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 03:41:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: by ec01-hou.bmc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2G8N88NF>; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 03:41:20 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Cohen, Izzy" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 03:40:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Fabian -- As I suggested to Henny Savenije, maybe some of Columbus' ancestors were well-traveled Phoenicians :-? If so, there may have been some oral-history relating to exploratory voyages in the family. Your name does have some influence on how others perceive and relate to you. For an exposition of this topic, see the (non-Jewish) Kabalarians website at http://www.kabalarians.com/ ciao, Israel Cohen izzy_cohen@bmc.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 01:23:38 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA00020 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:23:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA14623. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:23:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA14619 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:23:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA05933 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:23:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d051.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.115]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA22704 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:23:07 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <00b301bfa01f$3b1622c0$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "henrique" To: References: <000601bfa013$54439040$dccf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Subject: Re: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:03:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > > Two surprising details of the first Columbus travel , > for that time, were: one, that did not go any catholic > priest neither catholic monk or similar, in the travel. > Other: alone a translator man went in the travel, > and he was a translator of jewish language. > > Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es > > That's very interesting. Normaly the travel's to Guinea took arab or berber translater's and, if they suppose that they go to India, they must take one. Nevertheless if they took a jewish translator we must think about it But you can not be sure that any catholic priest or monk was in the travel. Jorge Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 01:40:14 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA00479 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:40:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA14641. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:40:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA14637 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:40:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f61.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.61] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA00458 (SMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:39:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 95591 invoked by uid 0); 6 Apr 2000 23:39:27 -0000 Message-ID: <20000406233927.95590.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 63.26.190.194 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:39:27 PDT X-Originating-IP: [63.26.190.194] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:39:27 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The translator, Luis de Torres, was a converto, who was brought along because he spoke Arabic, not primarily because he spoke Hebrew. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com > > > Two surprising details of the first Columbus travel , > for that time, were: one, that did not go any catholic >priest neither catholic monk or similar, in the travel. >Other: alone a translator man went in the travel, >and he was a translator of jewish language. > > Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 03:47:26 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA05427 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:47:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id DAA14814. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:47:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA14810 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:47:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA05420 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:47:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.204.64]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FSMI6Z03.4A6 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:44:59 +0200 Message-ID: <000601bfa032$85ebdf20$40cc3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: [EXP] the salomo island Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:42:22 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO In Micronesia, in the Pacific ocean , it exists an island named Ponape, or Pohnpei. This island is very interesting, and strange: it is a circular island, sorrounded by a ring of reefs. To the northwest there is the Oroluk atoll. These two islands appear in maps of 1600, with the names of "isla de San Pedro" (Ponape) and "baxos (bajos=reef) de san Bartolome" (Oroluk) It seem that some crews of the first "Galleons of Manila" had some mutinies when they are near this island, because they want to go to the island. They believe that this island was Offir, or Ophir, the "mine of King Salomo", perhaps because the extrange form of the island, circular and with a reef around, or perhaps because in the island exists an strange ruins named Nang Magdol. Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 05:03:32 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA09172 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 05:03:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA14994. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 05:03:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA14990 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 05:03:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from IDENT:root@ambr.mtholyoke.edu [138.110.1.10] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA06338 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 05:03:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mhc.mtholyoke.edu (mhc.mtholyoke.edu [138.110.1.1]) by ambr.mtholyoke.edu (8.9.1/v990319-1150) with ESMTP id XAA17140 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (mmcmenam@localhost) by mhc.mtholyoke.edu (8.7.3/v991002-2136) with ESMTP id XAA16213 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:02:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Mark A. McMenamin" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Phoenician Coins In-Reply-To: <20000405182706.63252.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Greg, The only way these coins could have been lost by accident is if they were lost by Indians in 300 BC after having received them from the Phoenicians. Other than that, I am in general agreement with your comments. All the coins lack archeological context. But if they are not genuinely ancient, they must represent some type of deliberate plant or hoax (either by a single party or by different people over time). The coins are sufficiently strange and distinctive (most have a palm tree with roots on the reverse) that they catch the eye of numismatists who are aware of the problem. I am not aware of any specimens occuring in the Old World. Thus there are only two options. 1, the coins are genuine. 2, the coins are a deliberate plant to fool people. Right now I am favoring number two, and I would very much like to learn who perpetrated this hoax. I would also like to know why they did it. I don't have much of an opinion about ancient coins found in America that belong to types familiar from the Old World, although these seem to be rather more abundant than chance modern losses would suggest. Mark || Mark McMenamin || Department of Earth and Environment || Mount Holyoke College || South Hadley, MA 01075 || 413 538-2280 FX-2239 On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Gregory McIntosh wrote: > Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:27:06 PDT > From: Gregory McIntosh > Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl > To: discovery@win.tue.nl > Subject: Re: [EXP] Phoenician Coins > > In my opinion, coins by themselves do not "represent the best evidence yet > for Atlantic crossings in antiquity." They are, however, pretty good > evidence of people losing coin collections. > > Ancient Roman coins in Britain have been good evidence of Roman presence in > Britain --- when they have been found in situ with other Roman artifacts, > e.g., pottery, weapons, buildings, etc. Similarly, ancient Greek coins in > western India have been pretty good evidence of Greek presence in western > India when they have been found in situ with other Greek artifacts. > > But coins found in a vacuum (if you will) are not very good evidence of > transatlantic crossings --- unless they are found with other physical > evidence. When all of the other places in the world that have ancient coins > scattered about usually have other corroborating physical evidence, the mere > fact that so many ancient coins have (supposedly) been found scattered > across the Americas without any other associative physical evidence makes me > question their value. > > Why is it that voyagers to America have a prediliction for losing coins but > never anything else? > > Respectfully, > > Greg McIntosh > plusultra@hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 10:35:55 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA23468 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:35:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA15397. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:34:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA15393 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:34:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id KAA10643. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:34:10 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200004070834.KAA10643@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Phoenician Coins In-Reply-To: from "Mark A. McMenamin" at "Apr 6, 2000 11: 2:58 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:34:10 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Mark A. McMenamin wrote: > The only way these coins could have been lost by accident is if they were > lost by Indians in 300 BC after having received them from the > Phoenicians. Which of course does allow for weakening Greg's requirement that there must be other Phoenician finds in situ to validate these as evidence for Phoenician trans-Atlantic crossings: Finding them in situ with contemporary Native American objects would also provide a good degree of validation. In this, the case is different from his cited cases of Greek coins in India or Roman in England, because those could have come there through dispersion. If these coins genuinely existed in America at the time claimed, someone must have brought them across the Atlantic. > Other than that, I am in general agreement with your > comments. All the coins lack archeological context. But if they are not > genuinely ancient, they must represent some type of deliberate plant or > hoax (either by a single party or by different people over time). The > coins are sufficiently strange and distinctive (most have a palm > tree with roots on the reverse) that they catch the eye of numismatists > who are aware of the problem. I am not aware of any specimens occuring in > the Old World. If they do indeed not occur in the Old World that would be an indication that this is indeed a hoax rather than a true archaeological find or an accidental modern loss. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 14:32:09 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA07435 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:32:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA15845. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:31:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA15841 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:31:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from BATCH15.UNI-MUENSTER.DE [128.176.188.113] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA08397 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:31:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pop1.uni-muenster.de (POP1.UNI-MUENSTER.DE [128.176.188.74]) by batch15.uni-muenster.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982201079 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:31:10 +0200 (MES) Received: from p1l7r9 (RAS22-218.UNI-MUENSTER.DE [128.176.235.219]) by pop1.uni-muenster.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA37030 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:31:02 +0200 Message-ID: <003101bfa08d$47fc1940$dbebb080@p1l7r9> From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Henning_T=FCrk?=" To: "discovery" Subject: [EXP] WWW-Page about German colonialism Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:32:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01BFA09E.0ABB7EC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BFA09E.0ABB7EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi folks, I've created a www-page with links to sites about german colonialism. = So, if you are interested have a look at http://www.muenster.de/~thedude Henning T=FCrk ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BFA09E.0ABB7EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi folks,
I've created a www-page with links = to sites=20 about german colonialism. So, if you are interested have a look at http://www.muenster.de/~thedude<= /A>
Henning Türk
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BFA09E.0ABB7EC0-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 14:40:02 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA07716 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:40:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA15865. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:39:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA15861 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:39:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fw-us-hou-2.bmc.com [198.207.223.251] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA08421 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:39:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ec01-hou.bmc.com (ec01-hou.bmc.com [172.17.0.150]) by tangelo.bmc.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA07038 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:39:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: by ec01-hou.bmc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2G83AH9T>; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:39:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Cohen, Izzy" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:39:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO j. anaya [mailto:anay@arrakis.es] wrote: >> Two surprising details of the first Columbus travel , for that time, were: one, that did not go any catholic priest neither catholic monk or similar, in the travel. Other: alone a translator man went in the travel, and he was a translator of jewish language. Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es << According to: http://www.nbufront.org/html/FRONTalView/ArticlesPapers/CMcIntyre_SlaveSyste m2.html ...Colon's crew included Consersos (Jews who converted to Christianity, usually by having been tortured into doing so) and Marranos (secret Jews). The man who charted the course, Judah Cresques, was "known as 'the map Jew' head of the Portuguese School of Navigation in Lisbon," and provided for Colon. "Abraham ben Zacuto, a Jewish professor at the University of Salamanca," provided "almanacs and astronomical tables." Both the ship's physician, Mestre Bernal, and Marco, the surgeon, were Jews. Luis de Torres, "the official interpreter for the expedition," also was Jewish and probably stepped on the Caribbean islands first.42 This close association with so many Jews and his own obscure background, coupled with his inability to speak Italian well but Spanish very proficiently, have led to the speculation that Columbus probably was a Sephardic Jew. In fact, Portugal finally admitted some connection to him, acknowledging his Portuguese wife and erecting a small statue on the island of Madeira. ... Israel Cohen izzy_cohen@bmc.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 16:11:52 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA15358 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:11:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA16089. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:11:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA16085 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:11:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id QAA11690. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:11:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200004071411.QAA11690@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Phoenician Coins In-Reply-To: <38EDE605.AE753EFD@future.dreamscape.com> from D Donath at "Apr 7, 2000 9:43:33 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:11:35 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O D Donath wrote: > Could these "lost" coins have been introduced by some early > coastal trader in the Indian trade? If they are made of > non precious metal they may not have had any value in Europe > but would have made a good trade trinket. We know that the > Indians retraded some items inland so the coins could > show up anywhere on the inland trade route. Certainly possible. However, it does not get very far in increasing the chance that these finds are genuine. The only problem that it might solve is when the coins were found far from the seaboard. Because of that I had not mentioned it separately. The problems that existed still keep their strength, this theory does nothing to explain that: 1. There are no other Phoenician founds, and 2. No finding is known of any of the coins being found in situ with other archaeological material believed to be from the same time. I also would like to use this message to make clear that I have no prior knowledge about this. Any information I have on these coins is what was sent over this list. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 16:33:33 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA16582 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:33:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA16149. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:33:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA16145 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:33:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA09038 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:33:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from seanet.com (ip-64-38-140-5.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.5]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA19952 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <38EDE535.F99BFF9@seanet.com> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 06:40:06 -0700 From: "Paul D. Buell" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Phoenician Coins References: <200004070834.KAA10643@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <38EDE605.AE753EFD@future.dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The debate on coins reminds me of some who have used early Chinese coins found in the US northwest as evidence of early contacts between the New World and china. The coins were absolutely genuine but the problem is that they came to the US much later, as ballast in British and other ships visiting what is now Vancouver, Canada, and points south. This is evidenced by the fact that, among other things, the range of coins found is more or less identical to that of a typical string of 1000 cash. That is to say, the leather bands holding the coins have rotted leaving coins from a long spread of history, as is the case with 18th and 19th century strings, scattered about. No early contacts at all. A student of mine did her MA thesis on this and has, hopefully, laid the myth of such coins to rest. Now if one finds a T'ang coin in a dated early context, that would be something else. But so far there are no such finds. Paul D. Buell D Donath wrote: > Could these "lost" coins have been introduced by some early > coastal trader in the Indian trade? If they are made of > non precious metal they may not have had any value in Europe > but would have made a good trade trinket. We know that the > Indians retraded some items inland so the coins could > show up anywhere on the inland trade route. > Don > > Andre Engels wrote: > > > > Mark A. McMenamin wrote: > > > > > The only way these coins could have been lost by accident is if they were > > > lost by Indians in 300 BC after having received them from the > > > Phoenicians. > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 17:39:37 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA20641 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:39:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA16300. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:39:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA16296 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:39:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id RAA12279. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:39:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200004071539.RAA12279@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:39:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Original sender (jahurtado@pagina.de added to the list of allowed posters. Andre Engels, list manager ----- Forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl [mailto:owner-discovery@win.tue.nl]En nombre de Cohen, Izzy Enviado el: viernes, 07 de abril de 2000 12:39 Jose Para: discovery@win.tue.nl Asunto: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo The man who charted the course, Judah Cresques, was "known as 'the map Jew' head of the Portuguese School of Navigation in Lisbon," and provided for Colon. This information is a bad "plagio" (because my name isn´t mentioned) of mi Web page issue in 1997, and I probe it with the La Laguna University files. These page was added a Odden's bookmark in 1998. During 1988 the "High Spanish Council o Sciencies Investigation" published some studies in his historical magazine "Clio" about the theme, and in 1999 the Canary Islands Gouvernement edited my book "La Ruta TyD", because it´s the first part of my investigation. My Web page its actualizated in: José Antonio Hurtado García http://pagina.de/jahurtado ----- End of forwarded message from owner-discovery@win.tue.nl ----- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 19:06:58 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA25414 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:06:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA16424. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:06:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA16420 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:06:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA09667 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:06:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dante09.u.washington.edu (megellan@dante09.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.19]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.09/8.9.3+UW00.01) with ESMTP id KAA31522 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:06:23 -0700 Received: from localhost (megellan@localhost) by dante09.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.09/8.9.3+UW99.09) with ESMTP id KAA45600 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:06:23 -0700 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:06:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Buell" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Phoenician Coins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO One of the other ways coins of this type have been deposited in the past is due to the following: A ship from the old world takes on ballast for the sake of argument, in Italy in the form of rubble or rocky material. The ship travels to a New World port (say in 1700) and removes its ballast to take on cargo. If the ballast included archaelogical artifacts from a pre-columbian era, then finding a roman coin might appear to provide evidence of pre-columbian contact. As anyone who turns a spade in some parts of the Old World knows, due to the long human presence at some sites, it is virtually impossible to dig without running into evidence of several thousand years of human presence. Thus, as others have noted, the context is an absolute necessity when it comes to accurately dating. There are a million reasons why a genuine artifact such as a coin could be deposited, but that does not necessarily mean that there was contact during the period from which the artifact is dated. John Buell Graduate Student UW School of Library & Information Science "Words are fingers pointing at the moon; if you watch the finger you can't see the moon..." http://students.washington.edu/megellan On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Mark A. McMenamin wrote: > Greg, > > The only way these coins could have been lost by accident is if they were > lost by Indians in 300 BC after having received them from the > Phoenicians. Other than that, I am in general agreement with your > comments. All the coins lack archeological context. But if they are not > genuinely ancient, they must represent some type of deliberate plant or > hoax (either by a single party or by different people over time). The > coins are sufficiently strange and distinctive (most have a palm > tree with roots on the reverse) that they catch the eye of numismatists > who are aware of the problem. I am not aware of any specimens occuring in > the Old World. > > Thus there are only two options. 1, the coins are genuine. 2, the coins > are a deliberate plant to fool people. Right now I am favoring number two, > and I would very much like to learn who perpetrated this hoax. I would > also like to know why they did it. > > I don't have much of an opinion about ancient coins found in America that > belong to types familiar from the Old World, although these seem to be > rather more abundant than chance modern losses would suggest. > > > Mark > > > > || Mark McMenamin > || Department of Earth and Environment > || Mount Holyoke College > || South Hadley, MA 01075 > || 413 538-2280 FX-2239 > > > On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Gregory McIntosh wrote: > > > Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:27:06 PDT > > From: Gregory McIntosh > > Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl > > To: discovery@win.tue.nl > > Subject: Re: [EXP] Phoenician Coins > > > > In my opinion, coins by themselves do not "represent the best evidence yet > > for Atlantic crossings in antiquity." They are, however, pretty good > > evidence of people losing coin collections. > > > > Ancient Roman coins in Britain have been good evidence of Roman presence in > > Britain --- when they have been found in situ with other Roman artifacts, > > e.g., pottery, weapons, buildings, etc. Similarly, ancient Greek coins in > > western India have been pretty good evidence of Greek presence in western > > India when they have been found in situ with other Greek artifacts. > > > > But coins found in a vacuum (if you will) are not very good evidence of > > transatlantic crossings --- unless they are found with other physical > > evidence. When all of the other places in the world that have ancient coins > > scattered about usually have other corroborating physical evidence, the mere > > fact that so many ancient coins have (supposedly) been found scattered > > across the Americas without any other associative physical evidence makes me > > question their value. > > > > Why is it that voyagers to America have a prediliction for losing coins but > > never anything else? > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Greg McIntosh > > plusultra@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 19:18:57 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA25777 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:18:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA16445. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:18:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA16441 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:18:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.visto.com [206.79.140.96] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA25772 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:18:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mp6 (206.79.140.186) by smtp.visto.com (NPlex 4.0.058) id 38E3ECE00008AC02 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:17:54 -0700 Message-ID: <38E3ECE00008AC02@smtp.visto.com> (added by administrator@visto.com) From: "George & Dana Brown" Subject: [EXP] THE HIDDEN CITY PreExilic Jerusalem Located Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 10:18:44 -0700 X-Mailer: Visto To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Visto Server Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The Hidden City PreExilic Jerusalem Located The PreBabylonian Jerusalem has remained hidden for thousands of yea= rs;=20 prominent archaeologists admit they haven=92t found it. Yet, Scripture a= nd logic=20 explain where it lays hidden. It=92s the ancient Jebus, an early Canaani= te City,=20 with an historic castle that subsequently became the majestic royal palac= e for=20 the world=92s most famous kings: Saul, David, Solomon, and the many that = followed=20 them. It=92s also the ancient site of the early Levitical City wherein t= he=20 preserved Holy of Holies and other preserved inner recesses of the glorio= us=20 Solomonic Temple await reentry. A colossal find! Even the abundant anc= ient=20 records stored therein and the wealth of Temple treasures described in th= e=20 intriguing Copper Scroll await recovery. But GOD=92S Holy Ark is not the= re as=20 the Prophet Jeremiah hid it before King Nebuchadnezzar attacked the City=20 (Jeremiah 43:8-10; II Maccabees 2:4-8). The PreExilic City is also the coveted site raided by marauding armi= es of=20 ancient Egypt, Assyria, Persia, and Babylon. And the new Jerusalem creat= ed=20 when Jewry returned from Babylon is not atop this ancient City. Note again: People will soon unearth the remnants of Jebus, the grea= t=20 castle (fortress) of David, the Solomonic and other Temples. Findings th= erein=20 should provide substantial treasures and historical records concerning th= e=20 Middle East, Egypt, Mesopotamia, ancient India, perhaps China, the Phoeni= cians,=20 etc. This discovery should also confirm the skeletal history of the anci= ent=20 world and much more. For details see: =93The Hidden City: The PreBabylonian Jerusalem=94: http://www.angelfire.com/fl/BriansHouse/hiddencity.html Or http://Brians_Annex_II.tripod.com/hiddencity.html Help reopen Solomon's Temple. Feel free to link to this site and/or= =20 forward this email to your mailing lists and interested parties. Geo. & Dana brianshouse@visto.com ______________________________________________________________________ Get Visto.com! Private groups, event calendars, email, and much more. =20 Visto.com. Life on the Dot. Check it out @ http://www.visto.com/info From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 7 19:40:07 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA26419 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:40:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA16488. Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:40:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA16484 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:39:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA09771 (ESMTP). Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:39:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d035.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.99]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA07609 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:39:48 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <00e501bfa0b8$712770a0$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "henrique" To: References: Subject: Re: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:38:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > According to: > > http://www.nbufront.org/html/FRONTalView/ArticlesPapers/CMcIntyre_SlaveSyste > m2.html > > ...Colon's crew included Consersos (Jews who converted to Christianity, > usually by having been tortured into doing so) and Marranos (secret Jews). > The man who charted the course, Judah Cresques, was "known as 'the map Jew' > head of the Portuguese School of Navigation in Lisbon," and provided for > Colon. "Abraham ben Zacuto, a Jewish professor at the University of > Salamanca," provided "almanacs and astronomical tables." Both the ship's > physician, Mestre Bernal, and Marco, the surgeon, were Jews. Luis de Torres, > "the official interpreter for the expedition," also was Jewish and probably > stepped on the Caribbean islands first.42 > I don't know where you found this information, but there are here a lot of speculation in it. "Judah Cresques was known as the map jew head of Portuguese School of Navigation in Lisbon". Where did you found this information? Where was exactly this school of navigation?... He charted the course?... How did you know that? "Abraham ben Zacuto, a jewish professor at the University of Salamanca provided almanacs and astronomical tables"?... You mean, to Colombo?... Have you seen those almanacs?... > This close association with so many Jews and his own obscure background, > coupled with his inability to speak Italian well but Spanish very > proficiently, have led to the speculation that Columbus probably was a > Sephardic Jew. He didn't speak italian well?... Did you talked with him? In fact, Portugal finally admitted some connection to him, > acknowledging his Portuguese wife and erecting a small statue on the island > of Madeira. > ... > Israel Cohen > izzy_cohen@bmc.com Really?... Jorge Semedo de Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Apr 8 00:07:20 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA08016 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:07:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA17028. Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:06:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA17024 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:06:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA07998 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:06:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.205.79]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FSO2MN07.23J for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:03:59 +0200 Message-ID: <001001bfa0dc$d0a09f60$4fcd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:01:22 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The money of the Columbus expedition was this: Luis de Santangel (this man was jew) put 1.140.000 "maravedis" Columbus put 500.000 "maravedis" The town of Palos put 350.000 maravedis (this money was because an old "fine" of the Crown to that town). In total, about two million "maravedis". Ten maravedis was approx. one dollar: approximately 200.000 $. Abraham ben Zacuto (also Jew) invented or designed the calculation or calculus , of the geographical latitude measuring the altitude of the Sun over the horizon. It was an order of the Portugal Crown. This calculation of latitude using the altitude of the Sun was necessary because in the other side (in the South) of the Equator, it was not possible to calculate the latitude with the Polar Star's altitude. Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es | |...Colon's crew included Consersos (Jews who converted to Christianity, |usually by having been tortured into doing so) and Marranos (secret Jews). |The man who charted the course, Judah Cresques, was "known as 'the map Jew' |head of the Portuguese School of Navigation in Lisbon," and provided for |Colon. "Abraham ben Zacuto, a Jewish professor at the University of |Salamanca," provided "almanacs and astronomical tables." Both the ship's |physician, Mestre Bernal, and Marco, the surgeon, were Jews. Luis de Torres, |"the official interpreter for the expedition," also was Jewish and probably |stepped on the Caribbean islands first.42 | |This close association with so many Jews and his own obscure background, |coupled with his inability to speak Italian well but Spanish very |proficiently, have led to the speculation that Columbus probably was a |Sephardic Jew. In fact, Portugal finally admitted some connection to him, |acknowledging his Portuguese wife and erecting a small statue on the island |of Madeira. |... |Israel Cohen |izzy_cohen@bmc.com | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Apr 8 00:43:52 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA09279 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:43:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA17275. Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:43:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA17271 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:43:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA09261 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:43:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d060.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.124]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA29714 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:43:31 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <020601bfa0e2$e2069b00$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "henrique" To: References: <001001bfa0dc$d0a09f60$4fcd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Subject: Re: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:44:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > > Abraham ben Zacuto (also Jew) invented or designed the calculation > or calculus , of the geographical latitude measuring the altitude of the > Sun over the horizon. It was an order of the Portugal Crown. > This calculation of latitude using the altitude of the Sun was > necessary because in the other side (in the South) of the > Equator, it was not possible to calculate the latitude with > the Polar Star's altitude. > > Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es > > This is not true. Jorge Semedo de Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Apr 8 02:45:19 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA18121 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 02:45:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA17438. Sat, 8 Apr 2000 02:44:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA17434 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 02:44:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA18081 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 02:44:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.205.76]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FSO9Z501.TBI for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 02:42:41 +0200 Message-ID: <005301bfa0f2$fc024440$4ccd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 02:40:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Jorge Semedo, or Henrique: About Abraham Zacuto, you can look this in english http://www.cncdp.pt/oceanos/n29/artigos/crespo/crespoi.html The same in portuguese: http://www.cncdp.pt/oceanos/n29/artigos/crespo/crespo.html and more: http://www.thornr.demon.co.uk/kchrist/discpde.html http://wise-obs.tau.ac.il/judaism/sefarad.html Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es -----Mensaje original---- De: henrique Para: discovery@win.tue.nl > Abraham ben Zacuto (also Jew) invented or designed the calculation > or calculus , of the geographical latitude measuring the altitude of the > Sun over the horizon. It was an order of the Portugal Crown. > This calculation of latitude using the altitude of the Sun was > necessary because in the other side (in the South) of the > Equator, it was not possible to calculate the latitude with > the Polar Star's altitude. > > Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es This is not true. Jorge Semedo de Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Apr 8 05:31:37 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA25080 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 05:31:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA17855. Sat, 8 Apr 2000 05:31:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA17851 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 05:31:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lorica.ucc.usyd.edu.au [129.78.64.15] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA25072 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 05:31:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.usyd.edu.au (p6258.net10.usyd.edu.au [10.0.24.114]) by lorica.ucc.usyd.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02681 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 13:30:58 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <38EEA7A9.DF8802D6@mail.usyd.edu.au> Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 13:29:45 +1000 From: Robin Anscomb X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------105515934FEA64A19FFFBF3C" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO --------------105515934FEA64A19FFFBF3C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a thought. When people cite other works, it has always been my habit to follow up in order to gain some idea of the depth of scholarship and integrity applied, and the strength of the connection of the source with the topic. In this regard I think it would be reasonable to say that the quotation given was accurately, and completely, drawn from FRONTALview, the electronic journal of the National Black United Front [USA]. However, that text appears to be an anti-jewish polemic by Charshee McIntyre, who was was very loosely citing some of the words used by Stephen Birmingham, America's Sephardic Elite, the Grandees (New York: Harper & Row, 1971), at 45-46. I do not know the thrust or Birmingham's work or how much reliance could be placed on it as a source of reliable knowledge in regard to this topic, especially since it seems to have been selectively quoted. If we continue to pour old wine into new bottles it can become delightfully consumable, but of quite different character from the original. Robin Anscomb "Cohen, Izzy" wrote: > j. anaya [mailto:anay@arrakis.es] wrote: > >> > Two surprising details of the first Columbus travel , > for that time, were: one, that did not go any catholic > priest neither catholic monk or similar, in the travel. > Other: alone a translator man went in the travel, > and he was a translator of jewish language. > Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es > << > According to: > > http://www.nbufront.org/html/FRONTalView/ArticlesPapers/CMcIntyre_SlaveSyste > m2.html > > ...Colon's crew included Consersos (Jews who converted to Christianity, > usually by having been tortured into doing so) and Marranos (secret Jews). > The man who charted the course, Judah Cresques, was "known as 'the map Jew' > head of the Portuguese School of Navigation in Lisbon," and provided for > Colon. "Abraham ben Zacuto, a Jewish professor at the University of > Salamanca," provided "almanacs and astronomical tables." Both the ship's > physician, Mestre Bernal, and Marco, the surgeon, were Jews. Luis de Torres, > "the official interpreter for the expedition," also was Jewish and probably > stepped on the Caribbean islands first.42 > > This close association with so many Jews and his own obscure background, > coupled with his inability to speak Italian well but Spanish very > proficiently, have led to the speculation that Columbus probably was a > Sephardic Jew. In fact, Portugal finally admitted some connection to him, > acknowledging his Portuguese wife and erecting a small statue on the island > of Madeira. > ... > Israel Cohen > izzy_cohen@bmc.com --------------105515934FEA64A19FFFBF3C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a thought.
When people cite other works, it has always been my habit to follow up in order to gain some idea of the depth of scholarship and integrity applied, and the strength of the connection of the source with the topic.  In this regard I think it would be reasonable to say that the quotation given was accurately, and completely, drawn from FRONTALview, the electronic journal of the National Black United Front [USA].  However, that text appears to be  an anti-jewish polemic by Charshee McIntyre, who was was very loosely citing some of the words used by Stephen Birmingham, America's Sephardic Elite, the Grandees (New York: Harper & Row, 1971), at 45-46.

I do not know the thrust or Birmingham's work or how much reliance could be placed on it as a source of reliable knowledge in regard to this topic, especially since it seems to have been selectively quoted.

If we continue to pour old wine into new bottles it can become delightfully consumable, but of quite different character from the original.

Robin Anscomb

"Cohen, Izzy" wrote:

j. anaya [mailto:anay@arrakis.es] wrote:
>>
Two surprising details of the first Columbus travel ,
for that time, were: one, that did not go any catholic
priest neither catholic  monk or similar, in the travel.
Other: alone a translator man went in the travel,
and he was a translator of jewish language.
Jose Anaya  anay@arrakis.es
<<
According to:

http://www.nbufront.org/html/FRONTalView/ArticlesPapers/CMcIntyre_SlaveSyste
m2.html

...Colon's crew included Consersos (Jews who converted to Christianity,
usually by having been tortured into doing so) and Marranos (secret Jews).
The man who charted the course, Judah Cresques, was "known as 'the map Jew'
head of the Portuguese School of Navigation in Lisbon," and provided for
Colon. "Abraham ben Zacuto, a Jewish professor at the University of
Salamanca," provided "almanacs and astronomical tables." Both the ship's
physician, Mestre Bernal, and Marco, the surgeon, were Jews. Luis de Torres,
"the official interpreter for the expedition," also was Jewish and probably
stepped on the Caribbean islands first.42

This close association with so many Jews and his own obscure background,
coupled with his inability to speak Italian well but Spanish very
proficiently, have led to the speculation that Columbus probably was a
Sephardic Jew. In fact, Portugal finally admitted some connection to him,
acknowledging his Portuguese wife and erecting a small statue on the island
of Madeira.
...
Israel Cohen
izzy_cohen@bmc.com

--------------105515934FEA64A19FFFBF3C-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Apr 8 06:45:56 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA27821 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 06:45:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id GAA17945. Sat, 8 Apr 2000 06:45:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA17941 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 06:45:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from cordoba.cyberia.net.lb [207.240.177.153] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA27811 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 06:45:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sand.cyberia.net.lb ([195.112.195.75]) by cordoba.cyberia.net.lb (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-0U10L2S100V35) with ESMTP id lb for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:30:30 -0400 Received: from SeaWorthy ([195.112.203.3]) by sand.cyberia.net.lb (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA4683 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 07:46:55 +0200 X-Sender: geoassal@inco-TR.com.lb X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 06:37:18 +0200 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: chartering & s+p Subject: Re: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo In-Reply-To: <38EEA7A9.DF8802D6@mail.usyd.edu.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <77363365122A.AAA4683@sand.cyberia.net.lb> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO




please delete <echoship@inco-tr.com.lb> from your list

thx in advance




At 01:29 ã 08/04/00 +1000, you wrote:
Just a thought.
When people cite other works, it has always been my habit to follow up in order to gain some idea of the depth of scholarship and integrity applied, and the strength of the connection of the source with the topic.  In this regard I think it would be reasonable to say that the quotation given was accurately, and completely, drawn from FRONTALview, the electronic journal of the National Black United Front [USA].  However, that text appears to be  an anti-jewish polemic by Charshee McIntyre, who was was very loosely citing some of the words used by Stephen Birmingham, America's Sephardic Elite, the Grandees (New York: Harper & Row, 1971), at 45-46.

I do not know the thrust or Birmingham's work or how much reliance could be placed on it as a source of reliable knowledge in regard to this topic, especially since it seems to have been selectively quoted.

If we continue to pour old wine into new bottles it can become delightfully consumable, but of quite different character from the original.

Robin Anscomb

"Cohen, Izzy" wrote:
j. anaya [mailto:anay@arrakis.es] wrote:
>>
Two surprising details of the first Columbus travel ,
for that time, were: one, that did not go any catholic
priest neither catholic  monk or similar, in the travel.
Other: alone a translator man went in the travel,
and he was a translator of jewish language.
Jose Anaya  anay@arrakis.es
<<
According to:

http://www.nbufront.org/html/FRONTalView/ArticlesPapers/CMcIntyre_SlaveSyste
m2.html

...Colon's crew included Consersos (Jews who converted to Christianity,
usually by having been tortured into doing so) and Marranos (secret Jews).
The man who charted the course, Judah Cresques, was "known as 'the map Jew'
head of the Portuguese School of Navigation in Lisbon," and provided for
Colon. "Abraham ben Zacuto, a Jewish professor at the University of
Salamanca," provided "almanacs and astronomical tables." Both the ship's
physician, Mestre Bernal, and Marco, the surgeon, were Jews. Luis de Torres,
"the official interpreter for the expedition," also was Jewish and probably
stepped on the Caribbean islands first.42

This close association with so many Jews and his own obscure background,
coupled with his inability to speak Italian well but Spanish very
proficiently, have led to the speculation that Columbus probably was a
Sephardic Jew. In fact, Portugal finally admitted some connection to him,
acknowledging his Portuguese wife and erecting a small statue on the island
of Madeira.
...
Israel Cohen
izzy_cohen@bmc.com

From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Apr 8 14:16:52 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA15319 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:16:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA18418. Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:16:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA18414 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:16:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA15313 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:16:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d038.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.102]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA29221 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 13:16:22 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <003801bfa154$66ed0f40$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "henrique" To: References: <005301bfa0f2$fc024440$4ccd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Subject: Re: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 13:14:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: j. anaya To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 1:40 AM Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo > Dear Jorge Semedo, or Henrique: > > About Abraham Zacuto, you can look this in english > > http://www.cncdp.pt/oceanos/n29/artigos/crespo/crespoi.html > > The same in portuguese: > http://www.cncdp.pt/oceanos/n29/artigos/crespo/crespo.html > > and more: > http://www.thornr.demon.co.uk/kchrist/discpde.html > > http://wise-obs.tau.ac.il/judaism/sefarad.html > > Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es > > -----Mensaje original---- > De: henrique Para: discovery@win.tue.nl > > > Abraham ben Zacuto (also Jew) invented or designed the calculation > > or calculus , of the geographical latitude measuring the altitude of > the > > Sun over the horizon. It was an order of the Portugal Crown. > > This calculation of latitude using the altitude of the Sun was > > necessary because in the other side (in the South) of the > > Equator, it was not possible to calculate the latitude with > > the Polar Star's altitude. > > > > Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es > > > > Yes. I know the text and the writer and a lot of studies about Zacuto and his almanac, thats why i say it is not true that "Abraham ben Zacuto (also Jew) invented or designed the calculation or calculus , of the geographical latitude measuring the altitude of the Sun over the horizon". It's not true that he invented the tecnic of calculation the latitude measuring the altitude of the Sun. this is a older geographic tecnic that need the values of Sun declination in the day of measure. Zacuto have done an special almanac or tables with that values for four years with a tecnic to transform them for other four years and so on. It was the Almanach Perpetuum published in Portugal in 1496, probably used by Vasco da Gama in his travel to India in 1997-99. Zacuto went to Portugal in 1492, after de Spanish lay agains the Jews, and went out of Portugal in 1496 when King Manuel have done a similar lay. His relation ships with Portugal, perhaps came from Diogo Ortiz, a spanish bishop that went to Portugal after the war of 75-76, and stayed in King John court. Certainly he was very important to XVth century navegations but he did not invented the calculation of latitude using the altitude of the Sun. The Colombo travel's were in North were he could use the tecnic of measuring the altitude of Pole Start well known for the sailors in second half of XV century (the first direct reference came from 1456). All things that we write trying to say that they know this tecnics before or some other considerations as the direct influence of jews, are speculations without direct documents to prouve it. We have a lot of jews in Salamanca and in Portugal (and we can make the relation with Diogo Ortiz - we have a study by Carabias Torres about that), but we must take care before taking conclusions. There are lot of others influences in Xvth century iberian astronomical studies. Jorge Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Apr 8 16:36:34 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA20130 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:36:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA18599. Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:34:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA18595 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:34:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA20102 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:34:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.205.70]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FSPCEC05.731 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:32:36 +0200 Message-ID: <000501bfa166$ec7219a0$46cd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:29:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Jorge Thank you for your information. I have been mistaken in my data. Please, Who did invent or design the calculation of the Latitude, by means of the measure of the altitude of the sun on the horizon ?. Or who used that technique before Zacuto ? Thank you Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es |Yes. I know the text and the writer and a lot of studies about Zacuto and |his almanac, thats why i say it is not true that "Abraham ben Zacuto (also |Jew) invented or designed the calculation or calculus , of the geographical |latitude measuring the altitude of the Sun over the horizon". It's not true |that he invented the tecnic of calculation the latitude measuring the |altitude of the Sun. this is a older geographic tecnic that need the values |of Sun declination in the day of measure. Zacuto have done an special |almanac or tables with that values for four years with a tecnic to transform |them for other four years and so on. It was the Almanach Perpetuum published |in Portugal in 1496, probably used by Vasco da Gama in his travel to India |in 1997-99. |Zacuto went to Portugal in 1492, after de Spanish lay agains the Jews, and |went out of Portugal in 1496 when King Manuel have done a similar lay. |His relation ships with Portugal, perhaps came from Diogo Ortiz, a spanish |bishop that went to Portugal after the war of 75-76, and stayed in King John |court. | |Certainly he was very important to XVth century navegations but he did not |invented the calculation of latitude using the altitude of the Sun. | |The Colombo travel's were in North were he could use the tecnic of measuring |the altitude of Pole Start well known for the sailors in second half of XV |century (the first direct reference came from 1456). | |All things that we write trying to say that they know this tecnics before or |some other considerations as the direct influence of jews, are speculations |without direct documents to prouve it. We have a lot of jews in Salamanca |and in Portugal (and we can make the relation with Diogo Ortiz - we have a |study by Carabias Torres about that), but we must take care before taking |conclusions. There are lot of others influences in Xvth century iberian |astronomical studies. | |Jorge Matos | | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Apr 8 17:54:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA22539 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:54:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA18690. Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:53:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA18686 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:52:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA12081 (ESMTP). Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:52:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d037.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.101]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA08454 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:52:49 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <000701bfa172$a659a620$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "henrique" To: References: <000501bfa166$ec7219a0$46cd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Subject: Re: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:53:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: j. anaya To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 3:29 PM Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo > Dear Jorge > > Thank you for your information. I have been mistaken in my data. > > Please, > Who did invent or design the calculation of the Latitude, by > means of the measure of the altitude of the sun on the horizon ?. > Or who used that technique before Zacuto ? > > Thank you Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es > I don't know exactly (and i suppose nobody know) but i'm going to translate you a text from Luis Albuquerque: "De Compositione et Utilitate Astrolabi, wrote by the astronomer (or astrologer) Massahala, who lived in VIII and IX centuries, in XXI chapter, talk about the height of north pole or latitude of a place, and saying that to calculate it, there are three rules that concerns when the Sun is in North, the sun in Equinoctial and the Sun in South, and so on... you can see the tecnic of taking the latitude by measuring the altitude of the Sun. You can see the text published by G. Gunter, named Chaucer and Messahala on the Astrolabe (Oxford 1923). I suppose that the tecnic come from old Midle Age times For nautical use the only think that i can say is that in 1497 Pero de Alenquer (Vasco da Gama pilot) took the height of Sun in South Africa (as it is wrote), and we can suppose that he have done the same in 1487-88 during the Bartolomeu Dias travel over the Cape of Goog Hope. Jorge Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Apr 9 08:41:22 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA23559 (ESMTP). Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:41:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id IAA19801. Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:40:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA19797 (ESMTP). Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:40:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fw-us-hou-2.bmc.com [198.207.223.251] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA13375 (ESMTP). Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:40:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ec01-hou.bmc.com (ec01-hou.bmc.com [172.17.0.150]) by tangelo.bmc.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA26622 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:40:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: by ec01-hou.bmc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2G83C1PL>; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:40:22 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Cohen, Izzy" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:37:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Jorge Semedo de Matos asked: > Where did you found this information?=20 > Where was exactly this school of navigation? > He charted the course? How did you know that? > He didn't speak Italian well? Did you talk with him? Obviously, there is misinformation on the web.=20 And just as obviously, this is not my website. Your questions should be directed to the owner of:=20 http://www.nbufront.org/html/FRONTalView/ArticlesPapers/CMcIntyre_SlaveS= yste m2.html About this same information, Jos=E9 Antonio Hurtado Garc=EDa =20 jahurtado@pagina.de wrote: >> This information is a bad "plagio" (because my name isn=B4t mentioned) = of my Web page issue in 1997, and I probe it with the La Laguna University = files. These page was added a Odden's bookmark in 1998. During 1988 the "High Spanish Council of Sciencies Investigation" published some studies in = the historical magazine "Clio" about the theme, and in 1999 the Canary = Islands Gouvernement edited my book "La Ruta TyD", because it=B4s the first = part of my investigation. My Web page its actualizated in: http://pagina.de/jahurtado << end of quote Israel Cohen izzy_cohen@bmc.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Apr 9 10:36:07 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA27270 (ESMTP). Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:36:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA19919. Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:35:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA19915 (ESMTP). Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:35:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mech.Sharif.AC.IR [194.225.40.105] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA27263 (SMTP). Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:35:42 +0200 (MET DST) From: zarea@MECH.SHARIF.AC.IR Received: by mech.sharif.ac.ir (MX V4.1 VAX) id 5; Sun, 09 Apr 2000 13:05:13 +0430 (IDT) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 13:05:12 +0430 (IDT) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-ID: <009E85AC.B47ACEE0.5@mech.sharif.ac.ir> Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO thanks for your massage From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Apr 9 17:51:07 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA12342 (ESMTP). Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:51:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA20283. Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:49:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA20279 (ESMTP). Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:48:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA13942 (ESMTP). Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:48:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.207.110]) by ssmtp02.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FSRAI004.M06 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:46:48 +0200 Message-ID: <000601bfa23a$74dff360$6ecf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:44:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Jorge: On the topic of collaboration of Jews in the first discoveries of Portugal and in the travel of Columbus, I have read in a book titled "the tordesillas line", of the author Agustin Remesal", that: In Juan's II Court (of Portugal)...four Jewish astronomers worked... they invented the "tables of Inclination of the sun for navigators' use". They was: Masters Moises, Josef (doctor of the King), Rodrigo and Diego". The last was a Spaniard. Do you know if this is authentic? Thanks Jose Anaya | |I don't know exactly (and i suppose nobody know) but i'm going to translate |you a text from Luis Albuquerque: "De Compositione et Utilitate Astrolabi, |wrote by the astronomer (or astrologer) Massahala, who lived in VIII and IX |centuries, in XXI chapter, talk about the height of north pole or latitude |of a place, and saying that to calculate it, there are three rules that |concerns when the Sun is in North, the sun in Equinoctial and the Sun in |South, and so on... you can see the tecnic of taking the latitude by |measuring the altitude of the Sun. You can see the text published by G. |Gunter, named Chaucer and Messahala on the Astrolabe (Oxford 1923). | |I suppose that the tecnic come from old Midle Age times | |For nautical use the only think that i can say is that in 1497 Pero de |Alenquer (Vasco da Gama pilot) took the height of Sun in South Africa (as it |is wrote), and we can suppose that he have done the same in 1487-88 during |the Bartolomeu Dias travel over the Cape of Goog Hope. | |Jorge Matos | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 10 06:04:33 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA12478 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:04:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id GAA21254. Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:02:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA21250 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:02:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from SGI3974ef1.iddeo.es [62.81.31.132] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA15323 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:02:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ret000xh ([62.82.236.78]) by smtp1.retemail.es (InterMail v4.00.03.01 201-229-104-101) with SMTP id <20000410040059.FSAZ137212.smtp1@ret000xh> for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:00:59 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Antonio_Hurtado_Garc=EDa?= To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 04:59:20 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000601bfa23a$74dff360$6ecf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO About these topic you can read some book the Science's History; Marino of Tiro, and Ptolemy known exactily the method for determinate the latitude , and they tryed make a chart in the system latitude-longitude. José Antonio Hurtado García jahurtado@pagina.de http://pagina.de/jahurtado -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl [mailto:owner-discovery@win.tue.nl]En nombre de j. anaya Enviado el: domingo, 09 de abril de 2000 15:44 Jose Para: discovery@win.tue.nl Asunto: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Dear Jorge: On the topic of collaboration of Jews in the first discoveries of Portugal and in the travel of Columbus, I have read in a book titled "the tordesillas line", of the author Agustin Remesal", that: In Juan's II Court (of Portugal)...four Jewish astronomers worked... they invented the "tables of Inclination of the sun for navigators' use". They was: Masters Moises, Josef (doctor of the King), Rodrigo and Diego". The last was a Spaniard. Do you know if this is authentic? Thanks Jose Anaya | |I don't know exactly (and i suppose nobody know) but i'm going to translate |you a text from Luis Albuquerque: "De Compositione et Utilitate Astrolabi, |wrote by the astronomer (or astrologer) Massahala, who lived in VIII and IX |centuries, in XXI chapter, talk about the height of north pole or latitude |of a place, and saying that to calculate it, there are three rules that |concerns when the Sun is in North, the sun in Equinoctial and the Sun in |South, and so on... you can see the tecnic of taking the latitude by |measuring the altitude of the Sun. You can see the text published by G. |Gunter, named Chaucer and Messahala on the Astrolabe (Oxford 1923). | |I suppose that the tecnic come from old Midle Age times | |For nautical use the only think that i can say is that in 1497 Pero de |Alenquer (Vasco da Gama pilot) took the height of Sun in South Africa (as it |is wrote), and we can suppose that he have done the same in 1487-88 during |the Bartolomeu Dias travel over the Cape of Goog Hope. | |Jorge Matos | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 10 07:55:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA15325 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:55:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id HAA21347. Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:54:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA21343 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:54:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay8.Austria.EU.net [193.154.160.146] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA15462 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:54:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eunet.at (dialup036.ap01-wien.at.eu.net [193.154.184.36]) by relay8.Austria.EU.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15175 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:53:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38F16C8B.59D50BBD@eunet.at> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:54:19 +0200 From: HFK Organization: Castaway Network Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] another Columbus question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Hi, there is a rumor, that Columbus once created a map of Antarctica ! Can anybody verify this - or is it just a rumor ? ****************************************** ARCTIC and ANTARCTIC Advice Agency Austria NEW http://www.arctic.at NEW the only true POLAR INFORMATION in Austria ****************************************** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 10 14:12:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA07771 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:12:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA21868. Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:10:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA21864 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:10:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from SGI3974ef1.iddeo.es [62.81.31.132] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA07665 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:10:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ret000xh ([62.82.236.179]) by smtp1.retemail.es (InterMail v4.00.03.01 201-229-104-101) with SMTP id <20000410120837.IBDI137212.smtp1@ret000xh> for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:08:37 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Antonio_Hurtado_Garc=EDa?= To: Subject: RE: [EXP] another Columbus question Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:06:33 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <38F16C8B.59D50BBD@eunet.at> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO That is a old story involving the Piris Reis Map, and now Mr Thor Eyerdalh has a new theory about norwengian navigatios with Columbus near to the Artic. José Antonio Hurtado García jahurtado@pagina.de http://pagina.de/jahurtado -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl [mailto:owner-discovery@win.tue.nl]En nombre de HFK Enviado el: lunes, 10 de abril de 2000 05:54 Jose Para: discovery@win.tue.nl Asunto: [EXP] another Columbus question Hi, there is a rumor, that Columbus once created a map of Antarctica ! Can anybody verify this - or is it just a rumor ? ****************************************** ARCTIC and ANTARCTIC Advice Agency Austria NEW http://www.arctic.at NEW the only true POLAR INFORMATION in Austria ****************************************** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 10 15:18:15 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA12427 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:18:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA21960. Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:16:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA21956 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:16:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id PAA18847. Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:16:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200004101316.PAA18847@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] another Columbus question In-Reply-To: <38F16C8B.59D50BBD@eunet.at> from HFK at "Apr 10, 2000 7:54:19 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:16:31 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO HFK wrote: > there is a rumor, that Columbus once created a map > of Antarctica ! > Can anybody verify this - or is it just a rumor ? It is certainly not more than a rumor, perhaps not even that. I don't know of any map having been created by Columbus personally, and any claims of early maps of Antarctica have (in my opinion) more to do with the fact that if one looks at enough maps, chances are that some of them will have some resemblance with a given other map or real physical feature, and with a willingness by some people to describe such similarities in stronger terms than the actual similarity would warrant, than with any actual knowledge of Antarctica. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 10 22:13:59 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA07338 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:13:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA22707. Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:13:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA22703 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:13:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f7.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.7] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA19516 (SMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:13:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 7294 invoked by uid 0); 10 Apr 2000 20:13:20 -0000 Message-ID: <20000410201320.7293.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 12.13.238.141 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:13:20 PDT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.141] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] another Columbus question Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:13:20 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >Hi, >there is a rumor, that Columbus once created a map >of Antarctica ! >Can anybody verify this - or is it just a rumor ? One of the inscriptions on the Piri Reis (Re'is) map of 1513 states that the delineation of islands and coasts in the New World were copied from a map of Columbus. Actually, some of the islands and coasts (northern West Indies) were copied from a map probably made under Columbus's supervision. The Columbian source map was made about 1495-96 at the end of the second voyage when Columbus was an admiral and had many cartographers with him. It was above his station by then to put the pen to vellum but he no doubt directed the design of the map. After Charles H. Hapgood's book, , other writers accepted what he wrote without checking the facts (it must be true, a college professor wrote it in a book!), and confused and confounded some of the things Hapgood said. One of the things Hapgood said (actually repeated what Arlington Mallery wrote) was that the coast of Queen Maud Land in Antarctica was the landmass at the south end of the Atlantic Ocean on the Piri Reis map (it's not, but that's another story). Cyrus Gordon (or maybe it was Charles Berlitz) wrote a book after Hapgood (sorry but I don't have any references with me right now) in which, not uncharateristically, he misunderstood what Hapgood said, didn't go back to the primary sources, and jumped to all sorts of conclusions (that were wrong). One of them was that the New World and "Antarctica" on the Piri Reis map was copied from a map Columbus had before his first voyage!!! This is how this rumor, if you will, got started. It's not even a rumor. It's a posting by someone on a webpage who is totally relying upon something he read that was taken from someone else that was taken from someone else that was taken from someone else . . . . These sorts of writers (I hestitate to call them researchers or historians) never seem to go back to the primary sources, such as the inscriptions on the map, to see what they say but, instead, rely upon something said at fifth or sixth hand. Believe me, by that time there's very little truth left but there's a whole bunch of stuff about how "this will shake human knowledge about the past to its foundations" and "it's those narrow-minded university professors who are conspiring to suppress the truth." Sigh. For more on this, order the following: by Gregory C. McIntosh, foreword by Norman J. W. Thrower, Athens, Georgia: University of Georgia Press, July 2000, hardcover, 232 pages, ISBN 0820321575, $40.00. from: The University of Georgia Press 330 Research Drive Athens, GA 30602-4901 USA Tel: 1-800-BOOK-UGA (1-800-266-5842) Fax: 706-369-6131 E-mail: books@ugapress.uga.edu Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 10 23:54:42 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA11451 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:54:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA22829. Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:54:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA22825 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:54:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA19820 (ESMTP). Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:54:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.204.176]) by ssmtp01.arrakis.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FSTM3008.882 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:52:12 +0200 Message-ID: <000e01bfa336$aba2d500$b0cc3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:49:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I believe that in the calculation of the latitude, measuring the altitude of a star over the horizon, when this star is in the meridian line, there are several matter: This calculation is very different using a star that always is in the same declination (the star-star) that using the sun, that continually is changing their declination (=altitude over the celestial equator). To use the sun, it is necessary to use a much more complex table that for a star-star. [ here I have a problema of translation: in spanish, "star" has two senses "estrella" and "astro". "Astro" are all big bodies of the space. "estrella" are only distant suns. I translate as star-star, a thing similar to Canopus or Sirius, distant suns. ] It is also very different to do a calculation in "land", in a "a astronomical observatory", that in a ship and by a navigator. I believe that the Jewish astronomers or Portugal were that designed the means to calculate the Latitude by the altitude of sun in the meridian line (at noon), not by Pole star, and for navigators, not for scholars. Before, perhaps, no navigator had made this calculation in a erudite level. But they are only scholars, erudite men. Before, the altitude of the pole star had been used in navigation, or also, the crossing of stars-stars by the meridian line ( in the astrolabes ), by navigators, but not the sun. Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx |About these topic you can read some book the Science's History; Marino of |Tiro, and Ptolemy known exactily the method for determinate the latitude , |and they tryed make a chart in the system latitude-longitude. | |I don't know exactly (and i suppose nobody know) but i'm going to translate |you a text from Luis Albuquerque: "De Compositione et Utilitate Astrolabi, |wrote by the astronomer (or astrologer) Massahala, who lived in VIII and IX |centuries, in XXI chapter, talk about the height of north pole or latitude |of a place, and saying that to calculate it, there are three rules that |concerns when the Sun is in North, the sun in Equinoctial and the Sun in |South, and so on... you can see the tecnic of taking the latitude by |measuring the altitude of the Sun. You can see the text published by G. |Gunter, named Chaucer and Messahala on the Astrolabe (Oxford 1923). | |I suppose that the tecnic come from old Midle Age times | |For nautical use the only think that i can say is that in 1497 Pero de |Alenquer (Vasco da Gama pilot) took the height of Sun in South Africa (as it |is wrote), and we can suppose that he have done the same in 1487-88 during |the Bartolomeu Dias travel over the Cape of Goog Hope. | |Jorge Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Apr 11 01:33:59 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA20347 (ESMTP). Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:33:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA23110. Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:33:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA23106 (ESMTP). Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:33:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA20215 (ESMTP). Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:33:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d040.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.104]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA01547 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:33:27 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <002301bfa345$535f7920$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "henrique" To: Subject: Fw: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:34:05 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: j. anaya To: Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 10:49 PM Subject: RE: [EXP] Latin interpretation of Colombo > I believe that in the calculation of the latitude, measuring the altitude > of > a star over the horizon, when this star is in the meridian line, there > are > several matter: > This calculation is very different using a star that always is in the > same > declination (the star-star) > that using the sun, that continually is changing their declination > (=altitude > over the celestial equator). To use the sun, it is necessary to use a much > more complex table that > for a star-star. > of course it is. But before using some other stars or the sun, the XVth century sailors used the pole star with a special sistem (regimento) to transform the height of the star in to the height of the north pole (latitude). The problem was when they were in low latitudes (low then 9 or 8 degrees). > [ here I have a problema of translation: in spanish, "star" has two > senses > "estrella" and "astro". In portuguese, "estrela" meas star and "astro" means all big bodies of the space as stars or planets. Astro is a generical designation > It is also very different to do a calculation in "land", in a "a > astronomical observatory", that in a ship and by a navigator. > I believe that the Jewish astronomers or Portugal were that > designed the means to calculate the Latitude by the altitude of sun in the > meridian line (at noon), not by Pole star, > and for navigators, not for scholars. Before, perhaps, > no navigator had made this calculation in a erudite level. > But they are only scholars, erudite men. The first exactly reference of using the height of a star to calculate the latitude in Atlantic Ocean (in Indian Ocean the sailors used the stars to navigate, from early times) comes from1456, but it is possible that they have done it before. For the sun was certainly after 80, perhaps after the travel of master Josef and Rodrigo to guinea golf in 85-86. I suppose that they have done a first sun declination table (for mariners) and they corrected that table with the notes of that travel. They worked with Zacuto too. > Before, the altitude of the pole star had been used in navigation, > or also, the crossing of stars-stars by the meridian line > ( in the astrolabes ), by navigators, but not the sun. > > Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es > > The oldest direct reference (that i remember) of using the astrolabe to take the height of sun (zenithal distance, because it is easier to do the calculation (90-a) + d, (90-a) - d or d - (90-a). With the XVIth century astrolabe we can take imediatly the 90-a) was in Gama voyage when Pero de Alenquer took the height of sun in South Africa, before crossing Good Hope Cape. But it is supposed that the travels of Diogo Cão and Dias (82 to 88) exploring al the west coast of Africa used some metod of astronomical navegation. But in Colombo's travels was not necessary to use the sun. They could calculate the latitude directly with the height of pole star corrected by a easy sistem (the regimento). Jorge Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Apr 11 17:30:45 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA15671 (ESMTP). Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:30:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA24946. Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:29:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA24942 (ESMTP). Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:29:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.pittstate.edu [198.182.243.14] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA15524 (ESMTP). Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:28:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.pittstate.edu (cblatchley-pc.pittstate.edu [198.248.212.228]) by mail.pittstate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA41540 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:28:46 -0500 Message-ID: <38F3440C.39D777F3@mail.pittstate.edu> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:26:04 -0500 From: Chuck Blatchley Organization: Pittsburg State University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting References: <002301bfa345$535f7920$f3bdfea9@principal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO henrique wrote: > > The oldest direct reference (that i remember) of using the astrolabe to > take the height of sun ... was in Gama voyage > when Pero de Alenquer took the height of sun in South Africa, ... I am puzzled by this discussion, since we have astrolabes and armillary spheres dating back at least to Hipparcus with both solar and stellar calibrations built into the retes. The earliest Greek versions had less than a dozen stars, but they all had the Sun and its annual cycle above and below the celestial equator. Surviving Islamic astrolabes were used to find prayer times, and this certainly included daylight hours, when stars were not available. Even without an elaborate astrolabe, figuring solar latitude is not all that difficult. I taught an introductory physical science class how to do it just yesterday, and only a few of them have had any algebra. You just need a calculator that will handle trigonometric functions. Scales for these were typically incorporated graphically into early astrolabes for solving the "shadow square" problem and even cotangents on the Islamic versions, used for setting prayer times. Chuck Blatchley From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Apr 11 19:42:43 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA22118 (ESMTP). Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:42:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA25114. Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:42:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA25109 (ESMTP). Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:41:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@datacomm.iue.it [149.139.6.101] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA22074 (ESMTP). Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:41:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from datacomm.iue.it (lafond.iue.it [149.139.8.29]) by datacomm.iue.it (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA21755 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:42:23 +0200 (METDST) Message-ID: <38F3638D.D47A32E1@datacomm.iue.it> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:40:29 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?I=F1aki=20L=F3pez=20Mart=EDn?= Organization: RSC-IUE X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr-FR,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting References: <002301bfa345$535f7920$f3bdfea9@principal> <38F3440C.39D777F3@mail.pittstate.edu> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6465A18DDC5F79AF783EADA7" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6465A18DDC5F79AF783EADA7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everybody Does any one in this list know a good reference (book) regarding Isaac LeMaire's voyages in the Southern Atlantic and the Pacific during the late sixteenth century. I have a lot of information on the illegal economic activities of his firm (together with his brothers) in the Iberian Peninsula. I will appreciate any information about his voyages of "discovery". Best wishes http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/ms_room/martin_coll/welcome.html http://www.iue.it/LIB/SISSCO/VL/hist-spain/Index.html --------------6465A18DDC5F79AF783EADA7 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="imartin.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Iñaki López Martín Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="imartin.vcf" begin:vcard n:LOPEZ-MARTIN;Iñaki tel;fax:+ 39 055 4685 771 tel;work:+ 39 055 4685 723 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:In-house Academic Publications and Web Assistant;Robert Schuman Centre for Advanced Studies version:2.1 email;internet:imartin@datacomm.iue.it title:Iñaki LOPEZ MARTIN adr;quoted-printable:;;European University Institute=0D=0AVia dei Roccetini, 9=0D=0A(Convento);I-50016 San Domenico di Fiesole (FI);Italy;; end:vcard --------------6465A18DDC5F79AF783EADA7-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 00:47:34 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA06798 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:47:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA25621. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:47:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA25617 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:47:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA24833 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:47:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d061.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.125]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA08826 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:47:04 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <00a501bfa408$127def40$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "henrique" To: References: <002301bfa345$535f7920$f3bdfea9@principal> <38F3440C.39D777F3@mail.pittstate.edu> Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:39:13 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Blatchley To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 4:26 PM Subject: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting > henrique wrote: > > > > The oldest direct reference (that i remember) of using the astrolabe to > > take the height of sun ... was in Gama voyage > > when Pero de Alenquer took the height of sun in South Africa, ... > > I am puzzled by this discussion, since we have astrolabes and armillary > spheres dating back at least to Hipparcus with both solar and stellar > calibrations built into the retes. [...] yes, of course, but not to use in navegation. We are talking about a nautical astrolabe. Jorge Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 03:35:10 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA17940 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 03:35:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id DAA25783. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 03:34:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA25779 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 03:34:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA25140 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 03:34:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.206.218]) by ssmtp01.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FSVQY405.N6K for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 03:32:28 +0200 Message-ID: <000601bfa41e$9a17fa20$dace3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 03:29:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Hola Chuck. With total regard the old astrolabes, Arabs, etc., I imagine that they didn't have enough accuracy for the sailing necessities that were necessary in the time of the discoveries: about 1500. The new nautical astrolabe, and the new nautical tables of calculation of latitude that were designed for those new circumstances, they allowed precisions of half a degree in the mensuration of the latitude, and maybe bigger, and on board a ship. I don't believe that the old astrolabes of the middle age allow that accuracy. The marine astrolabe, of astrolabe, alone had the name. It was really a primitive sextant that the only thing that did, it was to measure angles of altitude. Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es |henrique wrote: |> |> The oldest direct reference (that i remember) of using the astrolabe to |> take the height of sun ... was in Gama voyage |> when Pero de Alenquer took the height of sun in South Africa, ... | |I am puzzled by this discussion, since we have astrolabes and armillary |spheres dating back at least to Hipparcus with both solar and stellar |calibrations built into the retes. The earliest Greek versions had less |than a dozen stars, but they all had the Sun and its annual cycle above |and below the celestial equator. Surviving Islamic astrolabes were used |to find prayer times, and this certainly included daylight hours, when |stars were not available. | |Even without an elaborate astrolabe, figuring solar latitude is not all |that difficult. I taught an introductory physical science class how to |do it just yesterday, and only a few of them have had any algebra. You |just need a calculator that will handle trigonometric functions. Scales |for these were typically incorporated graphically into early astrolabes |for solving the "shadow square" problem and even cotangents on the |Islamic versions, used for setting prayer times. | |Chuck Blatchley From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 06:55:35 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA26262 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:55:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id GAA25989. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:53:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA25985 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:53:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from crow.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.7] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA25536 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:53:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default (dialup-209.246.111.108.NewYork2.Level3.net [209.246.111.108]) by crow.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA29806 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000901bfa46f$c09b6dc0$6c6ff6d1@default> From: "John Flint" To: References: <000601bfa41e$9a17fa20$dace3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:10:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO The marine astrolabe, dependent upon the sun being aligned with the upper peephole onto the lower sight vane, was not a viable instrument for noon observations of the sun on a small rolling vessel. The cross staff was also of minimal value when the sun's elevation was above 50 deg. The quadrant, had it been equipped with a sun shade, would have been a usable instrument, but to the best of my knowledge, such an instrument was never developed. A few cross staffs were equipped with a detachable smoked glass sun shade which unfortunately could not be held simultaneously with the astrolabe or quadrant, thus making blindness a common affliction of these early navigators. This problem was finally resolved by the introduction of the back staff. Circumpolar stars or polar star sights were probably the norm for latitude sights and accurate altitude observations were made with these instruments. These instruments were predated by the use of the thumb and forefinger and, in the Chinese version, small blocks called fingers were aligned with the sea horizon. Such observations under optimum conditions were accurate within a degree. John Flint ----- Original Message ----- From: "j. anaya" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 9:29 PM Subject: RE: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting > Hola Chuck. > > With total regard the old astrolabes, Arabs, etc., I imagine that they > didn't have enough accuracy for the sailing necessities that were > necessary in the time of > the discoveries: about 1500. The new nautical astrolabe, and the new > nautical > tables of calculation of latitude that were designed > for those new circumstances, they allowed precisions > of half a degree in the mensuration of the latitude, and > maybe bigger, and on board a ship. I don't believe that the old astrolabes > of the middle age allow that accuracy. > The marine astrolabe, of astrolabe, alone had the name. It was really a > primitive sextant that the only thing that did, it was to measure angles > of altitude. > Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es > > > |henrique wrote: > |> > |> The oldest direct reference (that i remember) of using the astrolabe to > |> take the height of sun ... was in Gama voyage > |> when Pero de Alenquer took the height of sun in South Africa, ... > | > |I am puzzled by this discussion, since we have astrolabes and armillary > |spheres dating back at least to Hipparcus with both solar and stellar > |calibrations built into the retes. The earliest Greek versions had less > |than a dozen stars, but they all had the Sun and its annual cycle above > |and below the celestial equator. Surviving Islamic astrolabes were used > |to find prayer times, and this certainly included daylight hours, when > |stars were not available. > | > |Even without an elaborate astrolabe, figuring solar latitude is not all > |that difficult. I taught an introductory physical science class how to > |do it just yesterday, and only a few of them have had any algebra. You > |just need a calculator that will handle trigonometric functions. Scales > |for these were typically incorporated graphically into early astrolabes > |for solving the "shadow square" problem and even cotangents on the > |Islamic versions, used for setting prayer times. > | > |Chuck Blatchley > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 08:53:32 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA01820 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:53:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id IAA26159. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:51:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA26155 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:51:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from flaunden.mail.easynet.net [195.40.0.161] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA25745 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:51:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by flaunden.mail.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 52722A53E4 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:51:49 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 69511 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2000 06:51:48 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 12 Apr 2000 06:51:48 -0000 Message-ID: <38F41C9E.B8380E60@easynet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:50:06 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re:Jacob Le Maire References: <002301bfa345$535f7920$f3bdfea9@principal> <38F3440C.39D777F3@mail.pittstate.edu> <38F3638D.D47A32E1@datacomm.iue.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO To Inaki Lopez Martin Regarding Jacob Le Maire's voyage, the Australian Maritime Museuem has just reprinted the journal of Le Maire, together with the English translation by Alexander Dalrymple. The details are: Title: Jacob Le Maire's Mirror of the Australian Navigation Publisher: Hordern House, 77 Victoria Street, Potts Point, Sydney NSW 2001, Australia Price: 248 Australian dollars + 15 dollars post !!! As far as I know there is nothing else in print at present, but below is a complete bibliography for Le Maire Best wishes Ray Howgego Le Maire, Jacob: Spieghel de Australische navigatie door…Jacob le Maire (Amsterdam 1622). Le Maire, Jacob: Mirror of the Australian navigation [Dutch edn., above, with introductory essay and facsimile of Dalrymple's English text, below] (Sydney 1999). Schouten, Willem Cornelis: Journal ofte beschryinghe van de wonderlijke reyse ghedaen door Willem Cornelisz Schouten…inde jaren 1615…1617 (Amsterdam 1618). Schouten, Willem Cornelis: The relation of a wonderful voyage, tr. by William Phillip (London 1619; trans. of edn. Amsterdam 1618). Herrer y Tordesillas, Anthonio de, Caballos, P. Ordonez de & Le Maire, Jacques: Nieuwe Werelt, anders ghenaemt West-Indien.... [bound with:] Eyghentlijcke Beschryvinghe van West Indien. [bound with:] Spieghel der Australische Navigatie.... (Amsterdam 1622). Engelbrecht, W.A. & Van Herwerden, P.J. (eds.): De ontdekkingsreis van Jacob Le Maire en Willem Cornelisz. Schouten (The Hague 1945; 2 vols). Colenbrander, H.T. & Coolhaas, W. Ph.: Jan Pietersz Coen. Bescheiden Omtrent Zijn Bedriff in Indie (The Hague 1919-23 & 1934, 7 vols. in 8 parts). Purchas, Samuel: Purchas his Pilgrimes (London 1625, 4 vols; Hakluyt Society-James MacLehose, Glasgow, 1905-7, 20 vols; New York 1965, 20 vols). Barlaeus, Caspar [Kaspar van Baerle]: Descriptio Indiae (Amsterdam). Dalrymple, Alexander: An historical collection of the several voyages and discoveries in the South Pacific Ocean. Being chiefly a literal translation from the Spanish writers (London 1770-71, 2 vols in one; London 1775; French trans., Paris 1774; German trans., Hamburg 1786; Amsterdam 1967). Villiers, John A.J. de (ed.): The East and West Indian mariner, being an account of Joris van Speilbergen's voyage round the world (1614-1617), and the Australian navigations of Jacob le Maire (Hakluyt Society, London 1906). Hair, P.E.H.: Sources on early Sierra Leone: (10) Schouten and Le Maire, 1615 (in Africana Research Bulletin, VII, pt. 2, 1977). Parry, J.H.: The discovery of South America (New York 1979). Beaglehole, J.C.: The exploration of the Pacific (London 1934). Jack-Hinton, Colin: The search for the Islands of Solomon 1567-1838 (Oxford 1969) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 10:13:11 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA07142 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:13:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA26259. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:12:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA26255 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:12:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@datacomm.iue.it [149.139.6.101] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA07116 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:12:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from datacomm.iue.it (lafond.iue.it [149.139.8.29]) by datacomm.iue.it (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26659 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:13:12 +0200 (METDST) Message-ID: <38F42FA6.CED33CFF@datacomm.iue.it> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:11:18 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?I=F1aki=20L=F3pez=20Mart=EDn?= Organization: RSC-IUE X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr-FR,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re:Jacob Le Maire References: <002301bfa345$535f7920$f3bdfea9@principal> <38F3440C.39D777F3@mail.pittstate.edu> <38F3638D.D47A32E1@datacomm.iue.it> <38F41C9E.B8380E60@easynet.co.uk> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------75C0B3B83DBC1BA7E900A3E0" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------75C0B3B83DBC1BA7E900A3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Mr. Helmink and Mr. Howgego. The references you gave me through the list are extremely useful. In my view, LeMarie's commercial activities are still relatively unknown. Paradoxically, many scholars have undermined the importance of their intra-european trade level of trade. However, their commercial activities in the Mediterranean, namely in the Iberian and the Italian peninsula, during the late sixteenth and the early seventeenth centuries were huge (not to say a good source of information). As a matter of fact, secret reports elaborated by the Spanish crown in the late 1590s considered LeMaire's company (together with Flemish merchants such as "Francisco de Conique" and "Nicholas Vanderort") the richest company in Seville. LeMaire's commercial network, agents and interlopers extended throughout Portugal, Andalusia, Genoa, the Caribbean, and Mexico. In 1595, when the Spanish commissar Diego de Armenteros confiscated the books and accounts of more than 200 Flemish merchant houses in Seville his eyes pointed out immediately to the activities of Isaac, Jacob, and Abraham LeMaire. In the letter exchange between the them and their commercial partners in Italy, England, Antwerp and the United Provinces he found that these brothers had full access to "confidential" information regarding the arrival of the Spanish silver fleets and that they participated actively in the Atlantic business (of course illegally that was the reason of the inquire). Under these circumstances, and having access to such a privileged Spanish information (as the sources demonstrate) I wonder whether or not we should establish a direct relation between their "discovery" expeditions in the Pacific and their intra-european trade. In my Ph.D. dissertation on "The Origins of Dutch presence in the Mediterranean" (forthcoming) I dedicate a lot of space to the importance of Mediterranean trade for Dutch merchants, and the relation between Dutch trade in the Iberian and the Italian Peninsula and Dutch expansion. Intra-european trade was an excellent source of information and profit that later could be invested in the so-called Dutch "discovery" expeditions overseas. The exercise is very simple, have a look at the the names of Dutch merchants with strong interests in the Mediterranean (Iberia and Italy) and match them with the names of the merchants leading the first Dutch overseas expansion and later the East India Company. The results (believe me) are striking! Best. PS. Again, thank you. --------------75C0B3B83DBC1BA7E900A3E0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="imartin.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Iñaki López Martín Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="imartin.vcf" begin:vcard n:LOPEZ-MARTIN;Iñaki tel;fax:+ 39 055 4685 771 tel;work:+ 39 055 4685 723 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:In-house Academic Publications and Web Assistant;Robert Schuman Centre for Advanced Studies version:2.1 email;internet:imartin@datacomm.iue.it title:Iñaki LOPEZ MARTIN adr;quoted-printable:;;European University Institute=0D=0AVia dei Roccetini, 9=0D=0A(Convento);I-50016 San Domenico di Fiesole (FI);Italy;; end:vcard --------------75C0B3B83DBC1BA7E900A3E0-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 11:48:12 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA12760 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:48:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id LAA26388. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:47:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA26384 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:47:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id LAA23218. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:47:47 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200004120947.LAA23218@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting In-Reply-To: <38F3638D.D47A32E1@datacomm.iue.it> from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?I=F1aki_L=F3pez_Mart=EDn?= at "Apr 11, 2000 7:40:29 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:47:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Iñaki López Martín wrote: > Does any one in this list know a good reference (book) regarding Isaac > LeMaire's voyages in the Southern Atlantic and the Pacific during the > late sixteenth century. I have a lot of information on the illegal > economic activities of his firm (together with his brothers) in the > Iberian Peninsula. I will appreciate any information about his voyages > of "discovery". I know of two such voyages. One is the famous voyage by his son Jakob LeMaire together with Willem Schouten, being the first to round Cape Horn. It can be found in: Samuel Eliot Morison: The European Discovery of America: The Southern Voyages, A.D. 1492-1616. New York: Oxford University Press (1974). Boies Penrose: Travel and Discovery in the Renaissance, 1430-1620. New York: Harvard University Press (1952), New York: Atheneum (1965). If you happen to speak Dutch, the original report of the voyage has been re-released as: W.A. Engelbrecht and P.J. van Herwerden (eds.): De ontdekkingsreis van Jacob Le Maire en Willem Cornelisz. Schouten in de jaren 1615-1617. (2 vols.) 's Gravenhage: Van Linschoten Vereniging (1945). WLV part 49. On the Internet, the following pages might give you some information: http://pacific.vita.org/pacific/dutch/maire.htm http://www.mercatormag.com/304_son.htm The second is probably of extra interest to you because it deals with Isaac more than with Jakob. A second (or rather, first, because it was before the other) voyage was the one by Melchior van den Kerckoven in 1509. Isaac, of Huguenot descent himself, had secretly been a party in the founding of the Compagnie francaise du Pole Arctique. LeMaire and this company first tried to get Hudson to command an expedition for them, but while Hudson and LeMaire were still negotiating, the VOC, afraid of losing its monopoly, had contracted Hudson. LeMaire and the French company still went through with their plans, but now with Dutchman Melchior van den Kerckoven as their captain. Although officially in LeMaire's Dutch service, and sailing out from the Netherlands under Dutch flag, he was to fly the French flag and call on a French harbour if successful. He was to try to find the Northeast passage, build forts to control it, and sail through it to China and possibly Japan and the Moluccas. Van den Kerckoven left in 1609, one month after Hudson. Not much is known about this expedition, but he did visit Nova Zembla, probably being forced back by ice at the Kara Gate. He may also have called on Spitsbergen. Sources used: Helen Wallis: England's Search for the Northern Passages in the Sixteenth and Early Seventeenth Centuries. In: Louis Rey (ed.): Unveiling the Arctic. Calgary: Arctic Institute of North America (1984). Also in: Arctic 37:4 (1984). V.D. Roeper & G.J.D. Wildeman: Ontdekkingsreizen van Nederlands (1590-1650). Utrecht/Antwerpen: Kosmos (no year). I found the following bibliographic references for van den Kerckoven's voyage: C. de La Ronciere: Les premieres explorations francaises aux poles. Journal des savants 5 (1907). M. Emmanuel: La France et l'exploration polaire. Vol 1. De Verrazzano a La Perouse 1523-1788. Paris: Nouvelle Editions latines (1959) -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 12:19:27 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA15381 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:19:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id MAA26460. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:19:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA26453 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:19:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mech.Sharif.AC.IR [194.225.40.105] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id MAA27407 (SMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:19:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mech.sharif.ac.ir (MX V4.1 VAX) id 7; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:48:18 +0430 (IDT) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:48:16 +0430 (IDT) From: zarea@mech.sharif.ac.ir To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-ID: <009E8816.992CED00.7@mech.sharif.ac.ir> Subject: RE: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO thanks From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Apr 11 18:05:01 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA17930 (ESMTP). Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:05:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA24989. Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:04:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA24985 (ESMTP). Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:04:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from crow.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.7] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA23567 (ESMTP). Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:04:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default (dialup-209.246.101.196.NewYork2.Level3.net [209.246.101.196]) by crow.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA28123 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000401bfa3d1$4cac0ee0$c465f6d1@default> From: "John Flint" To: References: <002301bfa345$535f7920$f3bdfea9@principal> <38F3440C.39D777F3@mail.pittstate.edu> Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:03:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO You are correct. The references indicate a total lack of knowledge in ancient astronomy and navigation. One of the interesting navigational texts relates to Amerigo Vespucci who claimed and indeed attempted to take luna/star sights to provide time for his longitude observations. He had neither the instruments or accurate log tables to be able to perform this the most difficult of navigational observations. John Flint Ancient Navigation Historian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Blatchley" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 11:26 AM Subject: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting > henrique wrote: > > > > The oldest direct reference (that i remember) of using the astrolabe to > > take the height of sun ... was in Gama voyage > > when Pero de Alenquer took the height of sun in South Africa, ... > > I am puzzled by this discussion, since we have astrolabes and armillary > spheres dating back at least to Hipparcus with both solar and stellar > calibrations built into the retes. The earliest Greek versions had less > than a dozen stars, but they all had the Sun and its annual cycle above > and below the celestial equator. Surviving Islamic astrolabes were used > to find prayer times, and this certainly included daylight hours, when > stars were not available. > > Even without an elaborate astrolabe, figuring solar latitude is not all > that difficult. I taught an introductory physical science class how to > do it just yesterday, and only a few of them have had any algebra. You > just need a calculator that will handle trigonometric functions. Scales > for these were typically incorporated graphically into early astrolabes > for solving the "shadow square" problem and even cotangents on the > Islamic versions, used for setting prayer times. > > Chuck Blatchley > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 13:56:15 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA21847 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:56:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA26639. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:54:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA26635 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:54:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailx3.dacom.co.kr [203.252.3.75] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA27815 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:54:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from savenije.pop3.chollian.net ([164.124.133.130]) by mailx3.dacom.co.kr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA28652 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:53:04 +0900 (KST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.20000412204944.00ae0470@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:57:24 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting In-Reply-To: <200004120947.LAA23218@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> References: <38F3638D.D47A32E1@datacomm.iue.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr >http://www.mercatormag.com/304_son.htm Hi there must be something wrong with this link, since it doesn't work, I get a 404 message, but if I make a search the following URL shows up http://www.mercatormag.com/304_son.html which is the same however with an extra L at the end. Cheers ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 14:27:44 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA24453 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:27:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA26754. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:27:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA26750 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:27:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) id OAA23514. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:27:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200004121227.OAA23514@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20000412204944.00ae0470@pop3.demon.nl> from Henny Savenije at "Apr 12, 2000 8:57:24 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:27:30 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: discovery@win.tue.nl X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Henny Savenije wrote: > >http://www.mercatormag.com/304_son.htm > > Hi there must be something wrong with this link, since it doesn't work, I > get a 404 message, but if I make a search the following URL shows up > http://www.mercatormag.com/304_son.html > which is the same however with an extra L at the end. Thanks, might well be. Not having WWW-access at the time I wrote the message I copied the URL without first checking it. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 16:25:17 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA02849 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:25:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA26843. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:24:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA26839 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:24:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.pittstate.edu [198.182.243.14] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA02828 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:24:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.pittstate.edu (cblatchley-pc.pittstate.edu [198.248.212.228]) by mail.pittstate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA72954 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:24:39 -0500 Message-ID: <38F4868A.14F77F4D@mail.pittstate.edu> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:22:02 -0500 From: Chuck Blatchley Organization: Pittsburg State University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting References: <000601bfa41e$9a17fa20$dace3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> <000901bfa46f$c09b6dc0$6c6ff6d1@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I suppose most of the truly ancient navigation was by dead reckoning, even though astrolabes were available, since most of the Mediterranean is near the same latitude. However, Arabic mariners did venture down the eastern African coast, where latitude would have been helpful. I don't know whether they took readings at sea, however. If so, I would expect solar readings to be as useful as stellar ones, since the limitation was accuracy of altitude readings on a rolling deck and not a limitation in knowledge of how the Sun's altitude varied during the year. At any rate, in the 10th century, Abd al-Rahmân b. Umar al-Sufî (d. 986-7) wrote 386 chapters, describing 1000 uses for the astrolabe, including finding latitude. Chaucer wrote the first English technical manual (1391?) on the astrolabe with similar procedures for solar sightings, although I could not see any implication that the readings were to be made at sea. Altitude readings could be taken with any available instrument and then applied to an astrolabe to used it as an analog calculator rather than a sighting instrument. Stereographic projections were certainly available in the earliest versions, although only for a few stars and the Sun. The marine astrolabe was therefore a stripped down version, really just a protractor and plumb without the calculator, designed only for measuring under adverse conditions. A measured angle could then be used with either an astrolabe as calculator or with tables, when those were available. You can read Chaucer's Middle English text at: http://art-bin.com/art/oastro.html This month's (April) Sky and Telescope also has an interesting article on Chaucer's astronomical interests expressed in the Franklin's Tale concerning an unusually high tide in the 14th c. As I recall the paper shows him using an astrolabe, although clearly on terra firma, not a ship. Chuck Blatchley John Flint wrote: > > The marine astrolabe, dependent upon the sun being aligned with the > upper peephole onto the lower sight vane, was not a viable instrument > for noon observations of the sun on a small rolling vessel. ... From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 16:53:54 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA04297 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:53:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA26879. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:53:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA26875 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:53:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from flaunden.mail.easynet.net [195.40.0.161] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA04271 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:53:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by flaunden.mail.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id B922DA5477 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:53:31 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 54778 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2000 14:53:29 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 12 Apr 2000 14:53:29 -0000 Message-ID: <38F48AD9.4BCCB35D@easynet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:40:25 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re: Jacob Le Maire References: <002301bfa345$535f7920$f3bdfea9@principal> <38F3440C.39D777F3@mail.pittstate.edu> <38F3638D.D47A32E1@datacomm.iue.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO To Inaki Lopez Martin: Just in case you can't find any of the books mentioned in my other e-mail, here is a brief summary of Le Maire's voyage. If you have any information about the life of Jacob Le Maire before and after his voyage, I would be delighted to receive it. No books in English say anything much about the rest of his life. Best wishes Ray Howgego JACOB LE MAIRE (= Jacques Le Maire) Dutch navigator (1585-1616) who commanded the first voyage to round Cape Horn. He was the eldest son (of 22 children) of the merchant ISAAC LE MAIRE, who in 1614 had founded the Australische of Zuid Compagnie (= Compagne Australe) for the purpose of discovering an "Unknown Southern Land" and breaking the monopoly of the Dutch East India Company on trade routes to the East Indies. His navigators were authorised to enter the Pacific under the Dutch flag, but were forbidden from trespassing on the routes used by the Dutch East India Company, including the passage through the Strait of Magellan. Jacob Le Maire sailed from Texel on 14.6.15 with two ships, the "Eendracht" (with Le Maire, and captained by WILLEM CORNELIS SCHOUTEN (q.v.) with 65 crew), and the "Hoorn" (commanded by JAN CORNELIS SCHOUTEN (brother of Willem) with 22 crew). Jacob's two sons JACOB LE MAIRE and DANIEL LE MAIRE accompanied the voyage as accountants. Sailing via Plymouth, passing Madeira and Tenerife, and calling at the Cape Verde Is., the ships reached Cape Sierra Leone (21.8-18.9.15) where they traded for 750 lemons, "all for a few beads and some poor Nuremberg knives", as a preventative against scurvy. (This practice had become well established by the early years of the 17th century among the Spanish and Dutch navies, as well as by some English merchantmen, but was not accepted by the British admiralty until 1795.) After being detained by adverse winds the Dutch ships sailed for Patagonia, passing Ascension I., and crossing the equator on 25.10.15, where the crew were informed of their mission: to find a new passage to the South Sea and to India. Tragedy struck on the coast of Patagonia when the two ships ran aground at Port Desire (= Puerto Deseado) (8.12.15). Both were refloated but the "Hoorn" caught fire during breaming, and sunk after the crew had been evacuated. Sailing south in the "Eendracht", Le Maire passed the Strait of Magellan well out to sea (20.1.16), struck the north-eastern coast of Tierra del Fuego (called Mauritius de Nassau) and continued through the Le Maire Strait (= Estrecho de Le Maire) (25.1.16), sighting and naming Staten Landt (= I. de los Estados), which was believed to be part of a southern continent. Sailing erratically SW, and driven by storms to 57degS, Le Maire sighted, named and rounded Caep Hoorn (= Cape Horn, Cabo de Hornos) for the first time (29.1.16). Cape Horn was named after the town of Den Hoorn, where the expedition had been organised, while the Strait of Le Maire was named by a council of pilots on 12.3.16. Steering north into the Pacific the ship put in at the Juan Fernandez Is. (left 3.3.16), then sailing northwest then west encountered the islands of the Tuamotu archipelago. Jan Schouten died during this part of the voyage on 9.3.16. Passing through the Tuamotus, Le Maire landed on Honden Eylandt (Dog I. = Puka Puka) (10.4.16), Sonder Grondt (14.4.16), Waterlandt and Vliegen Eylandt. On 9.5.16 the ships reached Cocos (= Tafahi in the north Tonga group) and Verraders Eylandt (= Niuatoputapu). Sailing W then N, Le Maire discovered the Hoornse Eylandten (= Futuna and Alofi in the Horn Is.) (18.5.16) where he was cordially received by the natives. Proceeding west, then north, then west again, Le Maire discovered and landed on the eastern coast of New Ireland (25.6.16), where the crew was attacked by natives. Sailing on, he discovered the island of New Hanover and the Admiralty group, and put in on the northeast coast of New Guinea at Vulkan Eylandt (in the Schouten Is.) (7.7.16). During July and August 1616 he coasted New Guinea, navigated to the north of Halmahera, and eventually reached Ternate, in the Moluccas, on 17.9.16. >From there he sailed directly to Batavia (= Djakarta in Java), arriving on 28.10.16. Because Le Maire's presence in the East Indies was regarded as an infringement of the monopoly of the Dutch East India Company, the "Eendracht" was seized by the governor, JAN PIETERZOON COEN. Le Maire, Schouten and twenty of his crew were sent back to Holland in the "Amsterdam" under JORIS VAN SPIELBERGEN (q.v.) who was at that time in the course of a circumnavigation via the Strait of Magellan. Willem Schouten arrived back safely in Holland on 7.7.17, but Jacob Le Maire died at Mauritius on the homeward passage through the Indian Ocean. Schouten's passage of 2 years and 23 days had set a new record for a circumnavigation. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 19:03:40 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA12493 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:03:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA27022. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:02:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA27018 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:02:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA29187 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:02:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from oemcomputer (user-2inigle.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.66.174]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA30193 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:02:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Elizabeth Duran Gessner" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Re: Jacob Le Maire Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:02:15 -0400 Message-ID: <001b01bfa4a0$da8d9e20$274579a5@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <38F48AD9.4BCCB35D@easynet.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO It might be of interest to the cartographically inclined to know that the first _published_ maps of California as an island appeared in 1622 in the Dutch publisher Colijn's account of LeMaire's voyage to the Pacific, as well as in his publication of de Herrera's Descriptio Indiae Occidentalis. The theory of California as an island probably re-entered European thought after the capture by the Dutch of an erroneous Spanish map based on theories developed by Ascensión after the 1602 Spanish expedition sent to explore California. The Spanish ship San Francisco was captured by Spilbergen in 1615, and there is some speculation that the map was found aboard it and then passed on to Le Maire, and that it eventually returned to Europe and once again gave credibility to the island theory. Elizabeth Duran -----Original Message----- From: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl [mailto:owner-discovery@win.tue.nl] On Behalf Of Ray Howgego Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:40 AM To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re: Jacob Le Maire To Inaki Lopez Martin: Just in case you can't find any of the books mentioned in my other e-mail, here is a brief summary of Le Maire's voyage. If you have any information about the life of Jacob Le Maire before and after his voyage, I would be delighted to receive it. No books in English say anything much about the rest of his life. Best wishes Ray Howgego JACOB LE MAIRE (= Jacques Le Maire) Dutch navigator (1585-1616) who commanded the first voyage to round Cape Horn. He was the eldest son (of 22 children) of the merchant ISAAC LE MAIRE, who in 1614 had founded the Australische of Zuid Compagnie (= Compagne Australe) for the purpose of discovering an "Unknown Southern Land" and breaking the monopoly of the Dutch East India Company on trade routes to the East Indies. His navigators were authorised to enter the Pacific under the Dutch flag, but were forbidden from trespassing on the routes used by the Dutch East India Company, including the passage through the Strait of Magellan. Jacob Le Maire sailed from Texel on 14.6.15 with two ships, the "Eendracht" (with Le Maire, and captained by WILLEM CORNELIS SCHOUTEN (q.v.) with 65 crew), and the "Hoorn" (commanded by JAN CORNELIS SCHOUTEN (brother of Willem) with 22 crew). Jacob's two sons JACOB LE MAIRE and DANIEL LE MAIRE accompanied the voyage as accountants. Sailing via Plymouth, passing Madeira and Tenerife, and calling at the Cape Verde Is., the ships reached Cape Sierra Leone (21.8-18.9.15) where they traded for 750 lemons, "all for a few beads and some poor Nuremberg knives", as a preventative against scurvy. (This practice had become well established by the early years of the 17th century among the Spanish and Dutch navies, as well as by some English merchantmen, but was not accepted by the British admiralty until 1795.) After being detained by adverse winds the Dutch ships sailed for Patagonia, passing Ascension I., and crossing the equator on 25.10.15, where the crew were informed of their mission: to find a new passage to the South Sea and to India. Tragedy struck on the coast of Patagonia when the two ships ran aground at Port Desire (= Puerto Deseado) (8.12.15). Both were refloated but the "Hoorn" caught fire during breaming, and sunk after the crew had been evacuated. Sailing south in the "Eendracht", Le Maire passed the Strait of Magellan well out to sea (20.1.16), struck the north-eastern coast of Tierra del Fuego (called Mauritius de Nassau) and continued through the Le Maire Strait (= Estrecho de Le Maire) (25.1.16), sighting and naming Staten Landt (= I. de los Estados), which was believed to be part of a southern continent. Sailing erratically SW, and driven by storms to 57degS, Le Maire sighted, named and rounded Caep Hoorn (= Cape Horn, Cabo de Hornos) for the first time (29.1.16). Cape Horn was named after the town of Den Hoorn, where the expedition had been organised, while the Strait of Le Maire was named by a council of pilots on 12.3.16. Steering north into the Pacific the ship put in at the Juan Fernandez Is. (left 3.3.16), then sailing northwest then west encountered the islands of the Tuamotu archipelago. Jan Schouten died during this part of the voyage on 9.3.16. Passing through the Tuamotus, Le Maire landed on Honden Eylandt (Dog I. = Puka Puka) (10.4.16), Sonder Grondt (14.4.16), Waterlandt and Vliegen Eylandt. On 9.5.16 the ships reached Cocos (= Tafahi in the north Tonga group) and Verraders Eylandt (= Niuatoputapu). Sailing W then N, Le Maire discovered the Hoornse Eylandten (= Futuna and Alofi in the Horn Is.) (18.5.16) where he was cordially received by the natives. Proceeding west, then north, then west again, Le Maire discovered and landed on the eastern coast of New Ireland (25.6.16), where the crew was attacked by natives. Sailing on, he discovered the island of New Hanover and the Admiralty group, and put in on the northeast coast of New Guinea at Vulkan Eylandt (in the Schouten Is.) (7.7.16). During July and August 1616 he coasted New Guinea, navigated to the north of Halmahera, and eventually reached Ternate, in the Moluccas, on 17.9.16. >From there he sailed directly to Batavia (= Djakarta in Java), arriving on 28.10.16. Because Le Maire's presence in the East Indies was regarded as an infringement of the monopoly of the Dutch East India Company, the "Eendracht" was seized by the governor, JAN PIETERZOON COEN. Le Maire, Schouten and twenty of his crew were sent back to Holland in the "Amsterdam" under JORIS VAN SPIELBERGEN (q.v.) who was at that time in the course of a circumnavigation via the Strait of Magellan. Willem Schouten arrived back safely in Holland on 7.7.17, but Jacob Le Maire died at Mauritius on the homeward passage through the Indian Ocean. Schouten's passage of 2 years and 23 days had set a new record for a circumnavigation. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 12 23:29:45 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA24405 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:29:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA27290. Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:29:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA27286 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:29:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA29875 (ESMTP). Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:29:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.206.40]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FSXA9C02.BCD for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:27:12 +0200 Message-ID: <001401bfa4c5$8145a180$28ce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Re: Jacob Le Maire Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:24:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO (about the Lemaire travel:) In some way, the Spaniards had knowledge of the travel of Lemaire and Schouten to the Pacific ocean by another pass, located more to the south that the magellan strait. To see if it was certain, they order to two galician navigators, the Nodal brothers, "go to see if in the south of the "Tierra de Fuego", there was another pass between the Atlantic ocean and the Pacific". These two navigators hired as pilot a Dutchman that had navigated with Lemaire and Schouten, named Janssen. And the three mariners made the first inverse "travel" : they crossed from the Pacific to the Atlantic, crossing at south of Cape Horn, without special problems. This ship, of Nodal brothers, was the first one that made the route from the Pacific to the Atlantic ocean. These men, Nodal brothers, wrote a book of this travel. Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es |Just in case you can't find any of the books mentioned in my other |e-mail, here is a brief summary of Le Maire's voyage. If you have any |information about the life of Jacob Le Maire before and after his |voyage, I would be delighted to receive it. No books in English say |anything much about the rest of his life. | |Best wishes |Ray Howgego | |JACOB LE MAIRE | |(= Jacques Le Maire) Dutch navigator (1585-1616) who commanded the |first voyage to round Cape Horn. He was the eldest son (of 22 children) |of the merchant ISAAC LE MAIRE, who in 1614 had founded the Australische |of Zuid Compagnie (= Compagne Australe) for the purpose of discovering |an "Unknown Southern Land" and breaking the monopoly of the Dutch East |India Company on trade routes to the East Indies. His navigators were |authorised to enter the Pacific under the Dutch flag, but were forbidden |from trespassing on the routes used by the Dutch East India Company, |including the passage through the Strait of Magellan. Jacob Le Maire |sailed from Texel on 14.6.15 with two ships, the "Eendracht" (with Le |Maire, and captained by WILLEM CORNELIS SCHOUTEN (q.v.) with 65 crew), |and the "Hoorn" (commanded by JAN CORNELIS SCHOUTEN (brother of Willem) |with 22 crew). Jacob's two sons JACOB LE MAIRE and DANIEL LE MAIRE |accompanied the voyage as accountants. |Sailing via Plymouth, passing Madeira and Tenerife, and calling at the |Cape Verde Is., the ships reached Cape Sierra Leone (21.8-18.9.15) where |they traded for 750 lemons, "all for a few beads and some poor Nuremberg |knives", as a preventative against scurvy. (This practice had become |well established by the early years of the 17th century among the |Spanish and Dutch navies, as well as by some English merchantmen, but |was not accepted by the British admiralty until 1795.) After being |detained by adverse winds the Dutch ships sailed for Patagonia, passing |Ascension I., and crossing the equator on 25.10.15, where the crew were |informed of their mission: to find a new passage to the South Sea and to |India. Tragedy struck on the coast of Patagonia when the two ships ran |aground at Port Desire (= Puerto Deseado) (8.12.15). Both were |refloated but the "Hoorn" caught fire during breaming, and sunk after |the crew had been evacuated. |Sailing south in the "Eendracht", Le Maire passed the Strait of Magellan |well out to sea (20.1.16), struck the north-eastern coast of Tierra del |Fuego (called Mauritius de Nassau) and continued through the Le Maire |Strait (= Estrecho de Le Maire) (25.1.16), sighting and naming Staten |Landt (= I. de los Estados), which was believed to be part of a southern |continent. Sailing erratically SW, and driven by storms to 57degS, Le |Maire sighted, named and rounded Caep Hoorn (= Cape Horn, Cabo de |Hornos) for the first time (29.1.16). Cape Horn was named after the |town of Den Hoorn, where the expedition had been organised, while the |Strait of Le Maire was named by a council of pilots on 12.3.16. |Steering north into the Pacific the ship put in at the Juan Fernandez |Is. (left 3.3.16), then sailing northwest then west encountered the |islands of the Tuamotu archipelago. Jan Schouten died during this part |of the voyage on 9.3.16. Passing through the Tuamotus, Le Maire landed |on Honden Eylandt (Dog I. = Puka Puka) (10.4.16), Sonder Grondt |(14.4.16), Waterlandt and Vliegen Eylandt. On 9.5.16 the ships reached |Cocos (= Tafahi in the north Tonga group) and Verraders Eylandt (= |Niuatoputapu). Sailing W then N, Le Maire discovered the Hoornse |Eylandten (= Futuna and Alofi in the Horn Is.) (18.5.16) where he was |cordially received by the natives. |Proceeding west, then north, then west again, Le Maire discovered and |landed on the eastern coast of New Ireland (25.6.16), where the crew was |attacked by natives. Sailing on, he discovered the island of New |Hanover and the Admiralty group, and put in on the northeast coast of |New Guinea at Vulkan Eylandt (in the Schouten Is.) (7.7.16). During |July and August 1616 he coasted New Guinea, navigated to the north of |Halmahera, and eventually reached Ternate, in the Moluccas, on 17.9.16. |>From there he sailed directly to Batavia (= Djakarta in Java), arriving |on 28.10.16. Because Le Maire's presence in the East Indies was |regarded as an infringement of the monopoly of the Dutch East India |Company, the "Eendracht" was seized by the governor, JAN PIETERZOON |COEN. Le Maire, Schouten and twenty of his crew were sent back to |Holland in the "Amsterdam" under JORIS VAN SPIELBERGEN (q.v.) who was at |that time in the course of a circumnavigation via the Strait of |Magellan. Willem Schouten arrived back safely in Holland on 7.7.17, but |Jacob Le Maire died at Mauritius on the homeward passage through the |Indian Ocean. Schouten's passage of 2 years and 23 days had set a new |record for a circumnavigation. | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Apr 13 15:22:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA20364 (ESMTP). Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:22:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA29318. Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:21:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA29314 (ESMTP). Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:21:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from flaunden.mail.easynet.net [195.40.0.161] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA20325 (ESMTP). Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:21:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by flaunden.mail.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 68175A55A5 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:21:38 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 13897 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2000 13:21:36 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 2000 13:21:36 -0000 Message-ID: <38F5C981.F661262A@easynet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:20:01 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: The first around Cape Horn References: <001401bfa4c5$8145a180$28ce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO To José Anaya: Thanks for your reply regarding the voyage of Jacob Le Maire, which was the first to round Cape Horn in January 1616. The expedition of Bartolome Garcia and Gonzalo de Nodal in 1618 also rounded Cape Horn while passing from the Atlantic to the Pacific, but actually returned to the Atlantic in February to March 1619 through the Strait of Magellan. The voyage is important as being the first to circumnavigate Tierra del Fuego, and many of the surviving place-names originate from the Nodal voyage. The remarkably accurate chart produced by the Nodals was the first to show the southernmost coasts of South America with a shape that resembles modern maps. It was not really improved upon until the survey of Amedée Francois Frezier a hundred years later. As far as I know, the first voyage through the Strait of Magellan from the Pacific to the Atlantic was by Juan Fernandez Ladrillero in February to July 1558. He had already surveyed the islands of the Chilean Archipelago and had spent several months searching for the entrance to the strait from the Pacific side (it is particularly difficult to find from that direction). He sailed through the strait until he could see the opening into the Atlantic, then sailed back to Chile. The next well-documented voyage through the strait from the Pacific side was that of Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa in 1579. He later returned to establish a colony there, the famous "Ciudad Rey Don Felipe". By that time, or soon after, the strait was probably used, both ways, by numerous Spanish ships. The first "intentional" rounding of Cape Horn from the Pacific to the Atlantic appears to be by the Dutchman, Elias Herckmans, in November 1643. He was second-in-command to Hendrick Brouwer, and took command to bring the ships back to Holland after the death of Brouwer off the coast of Chile in August 1643. There are many "unintentional" roundings of Cape Horn from the Pacific to the Atlantic, when ships passing in the opposite direction were blown back to the Atlantic. Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Apr 13 18:39:08 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA03568 (ESMTP). Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:39:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA29554. Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:38:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA29550 (ESMTP). Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:38:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA04095 (ESMTP). Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:38:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d054.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.118]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA11644 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:38:39 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <015f01bfa566$e5efabc0$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "Luís Jorge Matos" To: References: <000601bfa41e$9a17fa20$dace3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:36:29 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > Hola Chuck. > > With total regard the old astrolabes, Arabs, etc., I imagine that they > didn't have enough accuracy for the sailing necessities that were > necessary in the time of > the discoveries: about 1500. The new nautical astrolabe, and the new > nautical > tables of calculation of latitude that were designed > for those new circumstances, they allowed precisions > of half a degree in the mensuration of the latitude, and > maybe bigger, and on board a ship. I don't believe that the old astrolabes > of the middle age allow that accuracy. > The marine astrolabe, of astrolabe, alone had the name. It was really a > primitive sextant that the only thing that did, it was to measure angles > of altitude. > Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es > > I know two works (in portuguese language) (the first by Gago Coutinho and the second by Malhao Pereira)about the use of the astrolabe on board. Bouth of them suppose that the accurace of the nautical astrolabe was 1/4 to 1/6 of degree, depend the sea and the ship. Jorge Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Apr 13 19:46:19 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA06920 (ESMTP). Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:46:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA29629. Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:45:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA29625 (ESMTP). Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:45:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fep02-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.201] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA06894 (ESMTP). Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:45:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [194.65.204.176] ([194.65.200.126]) by fep02-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000413174554.IELF809.fep02-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.204.176]> for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:45:54 +0100 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000901bfa46f$c09b6dc0$6c6ff6d1@default> References: <000601bfa41e$9a17fa20$dace3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:44:23 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] Re: Navigation by solar sighting Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO >The marine astrolabe, dependent upon the sun being aligned with the upper >peephole onto the lower sight vane, was not a viable instrument for noon >observations of the sun on a small rolling vessel. The cross staff was als= o >of minimal value when the sun's elevation was above 50 deg. The quadrant, >had it been equipped with a sun shade, would have been a usable instrument, >but to the best of my knowledge, such an instrument was never developed. A >few cross staffs were equipped with a detachable smoked glass sun shade >which unfortunately could not be held simultaneously with the astrolabe or >quadrant, thus making blindness a common affliction of these early >navigators. This problem was finally resolved by the introduction of the >back staff. Circumpolar stars or polar star sights were probably the norm >for latitude sights and accurate altitude observations were made with thes= e >instruments. These instruments were predated by the use of the thumb and >forefinger and, in the Chinese version, small blocks called fingers were >aligned with the sea horizon. Such observations under optimum conditions >were accurate within a degree. > John Flint Dear Mr. John Flint and others: The 15th and 16th centuries maritime astrolabe obviously was not so precise as other instruments later developed (such as de sextant), and its use was made even more dificult by the fact that most of the metal (bronze) specimens were small (and therefore a degree corresponded to something like one or two milimeters), and many times it had to be used on board with the vessel rolling. But the fact is that it was effectively used, and it was with that rudimentary technology that the Portuguese invented astronomical navigation in the Atlantic during the second half of the 15th century, in time of King John II, the 'Perfect Prince', with the effort of his collaborators Bishop Diego Ortiz de Vilhegas (Doctor Calzadilha), Master Rodrigo (Doctor Rodrigo de Lucena, who was not himself a Jew), and the great Jewish astronomers Master Abraham Zacuto and Master Jose Vizinho, together with the Portuguese navigators who explored the gulf of Guinea, Angola, Namibia and South Africa, namely Diogo de Azambuja (1482-1484), Diogo Cao (1480, 1482-1484, 1485-1486), Bartolomeu Dias (1487-1488), and perhaps including Duarte Pacheco Pereira (a man who was present in the signing of the Traty of Tordesillas in 1494, and later wrote a book on navigation) and Martin Behaim (a german who lived in Lisboa and the Azores, and was close to several Portuguese overseas initiaves, and later produced his famous globe in 1492 in Nuremberg). This invention of the astronomical navigation in the Atlantic by the Portuguese, using Jewish astronomy and Portuguese navigators (with the help of instruments such as the quadrant and the maritime astrolabe, rudimentary, but in any case more precise than the 'kamal' used by the Arab pilots in the Indian Ocean) was done by creating the nautical astrolabe by way of the simplification of the more complex planispheric astrolabes, and using it to only to determine latitude, and thus obtain the correspondence of the astronomical degrees with the land and water distance-measuring units, such as Portuguese 'leguas', or Mediterranean 'miles', by the process of 'Alturas-Distancias' [Latitudes-Distances]). In this way the Portuguese went further than the 'dead-reckoning' navigation practised until then in the Mediterranean and the Atlantic. The difficulty of looking directly to the Sun trough the small peepholes of the astrolabe was overcame by not looking at all, and instead aligning the Sun, the two peepholes and the palm of the pilot's hand. That was called 'wheigting the Sun' (at least by the mariners and other people who watched the pilot performing a so strange ritual...). We don't have nowadays any maritime astrolabe (neither Portuguese nor foreigner) dating from the 15th century, but we have mentions of its use dating from the end of the century and the first years of the 16th century. =46rom the 16th century and the beginning of the 17th century there are some dozens of astrolabes surviving nowadays, and most of them are Portuguese made (and a good number was aquired by the Portuguese in the 20th century, in auctions of Art, antiquities and shiprecks, and is nowadays kept in the Navy Museum in Lisbon, that being, as far as I know, the biger collection of maritime astrolabes kept in one single place). Please find very extensive bibliography lists (with a somewhat sophisticated thematic structure and automatic links), on all the aspects of astronomical navigation, nautical instruments, technical nautical literature, pilots, etc. (most of all from a Portuguese point of view), in my Bibliography of the Discoveries, at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm The sections dealing with this, in that 'Bibliography', are most of all the following: E.IV.A.1. General Views of Portuguese Nautical Science E.IV.A.1.1. Portuguese Glossaries and Dictionaries of Nautical Terms E.IV.A.2. The Portuguese Creation and Development of Astronomical Navigati= on E.IV.A.2.1. The Supposed German Influence on Portuguese Nautical Science E.IV.A.2.2. Iberian Astrology / Astronomy in the 14th-15th-16th C. E.IV.A.3. Oceanic Navigation and its Physical Conditions E.IV.A.4. Astronomical and Nautical Instruments in Portugal E.IV.A.4.1. The Compass Needle in Portugal (and the Problem of Longitude) E.IV.A.4.2. The Mariner=B4s Astrolabe and its Use in Portugal E.IV.A.4.3. The Mariner=B4s Quadrant and its Use in Portugal E.IV.A.5. Nautical Literature in Portugal E.IV.A.5.1. Portuguese Nautical Guides and Astronomical Regiments ("Guias N=E1uticos") E.IV.A.5.2. Portuguese "Books of Seamanship" ("Livros de Marinharia") E.IV.A.5.3. Portuguese Rutters ("Roteiros") and "Artes de Navegar" E.IV.A.5.4. Portuguese Ship=B4s Journals and Reports E.IV.A.6. Portuguese Routes and Scales (Nautical Aspects) E.IV.A.6.1. Nautical Aspects of the Portuguese Route to India E.IV.A.7. Pilots and Pilotage in Portugal E.IV.A.8. The Teaching of Cosmography and Nautical Science in Portugal E.IV.A.9. The Influence of Portuguese Nautical Science Abroad I hope this can be useful. With best wishes Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 =46ax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras =46ax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL Visit the Bibliography of the Discoveries at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* DESIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Apr 13 22:05:08 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA15306 (ESMTP). Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:05:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA29793. Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:04:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA29789 (ESMTP). Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:04:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from magpie.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.8] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA15274 (ESMTP). Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:04:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default (dialup-209.246.77.146.NewYork2.Level3.net [209.246.77.146]) by magpie.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA15290 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000501bfa5b8$25ae2b00$924df6d1@default> From: "John Flint" To: References: <000601bfa41e$9a17fa20$dace3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Navigation by solar sighting Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:21:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO It is interesting to note that the earliest cross staffs were marked not in degrees of altitude but by marks labeled with the names of seaports. This would preclude the use of the cross staff for noon meridian altitude sights. Later cross staffs and other instruments were marked in degrees of altitude. As the solution of Latitude by the sun requires the sun's declination in degrees and minutes for a given hour and date, I would assume that seamen's rutters contained that information We do, of course, have printed declination tables for the fourteen hundreds. The seaman's astrolabe, averaging some 6 inches in diameter, was widely used for latitude determination on land. The preferred method of use was hanging the instrument from a low tripod about a foot from the ground, aligning the azimuth to the sun, and setting the sight vane so thata ray of light passed through both peep holes and shone upon the ground. John Flint ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 1:44 PM Subject: [EXP] Re: Navigation by solar sighting > >The marine astrolabe, dependent upon the sun being aligned with the upper > >peephole onto the lower sight vane, was not a viable instrument for noon > >observations of the sun on a small rolling vessel. The cross staff was also > >of minimal value when the sun's elevation was above 50 deg. The quadrant, > >had it been equipped with a sun shade, would have been a usable instrument, > >but to the best of my knowledge, such an instrument was never developed. A > >few cross staffs were equipped with a detachable smoked glass sun shade > >which unfortunately could not be held simultaneously with the astrolabe or > >quadrant, thus making blindness a common affliction of these early > >navigators. This problem was finally resolved by the introduction of the > >back staff. Circumpolar stars or polar star sights were probably the norm > >for latitude sights and accurate altitude observations were made with these > >instruments. These instruments were predated by the use of the thumb and > >forefinger and, in the Chinese version, small blocks called fingers were > >aligned with the sea horizon. Such observations under optimum conditions > >were accurate within a degree. > > John Flint > > Dear Mr. John Flint and others: > > The 15th and 16th centuries maritime astrolabe obviously was not so precise > as other instruments later developed (such as de sextant), and its use was > made even more dificult by the fact that most of the metal (bronze) > specimens were small (and therefore a degree corresponded to something like > one or two milimeters), and many times it had to be used on board with the > vessel rolling. But the fact is that it was effectively used, and it was > with that rudimentary technology that the Portuguese invented astronomical > navigation in the Atlantic during the second half of the 15th century, in > time of King John II, the 'Perfect Prince', with the effort of his > collaborators Bishop Diego Ortiz de Vilhegas (Doctor Calzadilha), Master > Rodrigo (Doctor Rodrigo de Lucena, who was not himself a Jew), and the > great Jewish astronomers Master Abraham Zacuto and Master Jose Vizinho, > together with the Portuguese navigators who explored the gulf of Guinea, > Angola, Namibia and South Africa, namely Diogo de Azambuja (1482-1484), > Diogo Cao (1480, 1482-1484, 1485-1486), Bartolomeu Dias (1487-1488), and > perhaps including Duarte Pacheco Pereira (a man who was present in the > signing of the Traty of Tordesillas in 1494, and later wrote a book on > navigation) and Martin Behaim (a german who lived in Lisboa and the Azores, > and was close to several Portuguese overseas initiaves, and later produced > his famous globe in 1492 in Nuremberg). > This invention of the astronomical navigation in the Atlantic by the > Portuguese, using Jewish astronomy and Portuguese navigators (with the help > of instruments such as the quadrant and the maritime astrolabe, > rudimentary, but in any case more precise than the 'kamal' used by the Arab > pilots in the Indian Ocean) was done by creating the nautical astrolabe by > way of the simplification of the more complex planispheric astrolabes, and > using it to only to determine latitude, and thus obtain the correspondence > of the astronomical degrees with the land and water distance-measuring > units, such as Portuguese 'leguas', or Mediterranean 'miles', by the > process of 'Alturas-Distancias' [Latitudes-Distances]). In this way the > Portuguese went further than the 'dead-reckoning' navigation practised > until then in the Mediterranean and the Atlantic. > > The difficulty of looking directly to the Sun trough the small peepholes of > the astrolabe was overcame by not looking at all, and instead aligning the > Sun, the two peepholes and the palm of the pilot's hand. That was called > 'wheigting the Sun' (at least by the mariners and other people who watched > the pilot performing a so strange ritual...). > > We don't have nowadays any maritime astrolabe (neither Portuguese nor > foreigner) dating from the 15th century, but we have mentions of its use > dating from the end of the century and the first years of the 16th century. > >From the 16th century and the beginning of the 17th century there are some > dozens of astrolabes surviving nowadays, and most of them are Portuguese > made (and a good number was aquired by the Portuguese in the 20th century, > in auctions of Art, antiquities and shiprecks, and is nowadays kept in the > Navy Museum in Lisbon, that being, as far as I know, the biger collection > of maritime astrolabes kept in one single place). > > Please find very extensive bibliography lists (with a somewhat > sophisticated thematic structure and automatic links), on all the aspects > of astronomical navigation, nautical instruments, technical nautical > literature, pilots, etc. (most of all from a Portuguese point of view), in > my Bibliography of the Discoveries, at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm > > The sections dealing with this, in that 'Bibliography', are most of all the > following: > > E.IV.A.1. General Views of Portuguese Nautical Science > E.IV.A.1.1. Portuguese Glossaries and Dictionaries of Nautical Terms > > E.IV.A.2. The Portuguese Creation and Development of Astronomical Navigation > E.IV.A.2.1. The Supposed German Influence on Portuguese Nautical Science > E.IV.A.2.2. Iberian Astrology / Astronomy in the 14th-15th-16th C. > > E.IV.A.3. Oceanic Navigation and its Physical Conditions > > E.IV.A.4. Astronomical and Nautical Instruments in Portugal > E.IV.A.4.1. The Compass Needle in Portugal (and the Problem of Longitude) > E.IV.A.4.2. The Mariner´s Astrolabe and its Use in Portugal > E.IV.A.4.3. The Mariner´s Quadrant and its Use in Portugal > > E.IV.A.5. Nautical Literature in Portugal > E.IV.A.5.1. Portuguese Nautical Guides and Astronomical Regiments ("Guias > Náuticos") > E.IV.A.5.2. Portuguese "Books of Seamanship" ("Livros de Marinharia") > E.IV.A.5.3. Portuguese Rutters ("Roteiros") and "Artes de Navegar" > E.IV.A.5.4. Portuguese Ship´s Journals and Reports > > E.IV.A.6. Portuguese Routes and Scales (Nautical Aspects) > E.IV.A.6.1. Nautical Aspects of the Portuguese Route to India > > E.IV.A.7. Pilots and Pilotage in Portugal > > E.IV.A.8. The Teaching of Cosmography and Nautical Science in Portugal > > E.IV.A.9. The Influence of Portuguese Nautical Science Abroad > > I hope this can be useful. > > With best wishes > > > Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * > Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** > PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** > ************* * * * * > ** ************ > ************* **** > ****************** * *** ** > * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** > ************************************************************** > alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar > Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 > Fax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos > PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ > ************************************************************** > alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques > Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras > Fax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra > Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL > > Visit the Bibliography of the Discoveries at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm > http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm > ************************************************* DESIR ****** > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 14 02:44:26 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA02496 (ESMTP). Fri, 14 Apr 2000 02:44:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA00259. Fri, 14 Apr 2000 02:44:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA00255 (ESMTP). Fri, 14 Apr 2000 02:44:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA02477 (ESMTP). Fri, 14 Apr 2000 02:44:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.204.69]) by ssmtp01.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FSZDXY08.35C for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 02:41:58 +0200 Message-ID: <001001bfa5a9$e19bbf80$45cc3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: [EXP] New Guinea Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 02:39:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Ray Howgego (about the Dutch travels in the Pacific ) If you look with attention the Dutch maps of New Guinea, of the xvii and xviii centuries, you can look that in all these maps it appears as half west part of N. Guinea that is really the half east part, but reversed (north as south, etc) of this island. That indicates, I believe, that had about 1650 a meticulous travel of dutchmen around the half east of new Guinea, North and South coasts, at the moment, a unknown travel. And this first map, of this half part, it has been erroneously put in the map as half west part of n.guinea. Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Apr 15 20:34:33 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA11835 (ESMTP). Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:34:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id UAA03241. Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:32:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA03237 (ESMTP). Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:32:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from IDENT:root@mail.minn.net [216.177.129.2] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id UAA11771 (ESMTP). Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:32:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default (pm2-2-7.dynamic.minn.net [216.177.137.70]) by mail.minn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA14456 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:32:10 -0500 Message-ID: <036801bfa709$1e14ff20$5c89b1d8@default> From: "Keith Pickering" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:33:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I'm sorry that I was out of town during the past week when much of this interesting discussion occurred. A few points: 1). The earliest known table of solar declinations is found in the Almagest of Ptolemy, Book I.15 (about 145 AD). However, since most of the astronomy in the Almagest was plagiarized, it is likely that such tables existed long before this, very likely back to the time of Hipparchos (fl. 140 BC). The Almagest also contains a theory of solar motion that is taken from Hipparchos. Therefore, an educated person of that time could have computed latitude from a noon sight, if he had reason to do so. 2) Columbus undoubtedly navigated by dead reckoning, not celestial navigation. (See http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/dr.htm for the still unrefuted argument.) Columbus did carry an almanac, but it was used for astrological, rather than astronomical, purposes (e.g., predicting the weather.) The almanac carried on the First Voyage was probably that of Johann Muller ( a.k.a. Regiomontanus); a copy of this almanac exists in the remains of Columbus's personal library, and contains marginal notes in Columbus's hand. Abraham Zacuto did not publish his first almanac until 1499. 3) A good English translation of "estrella" would be "fixed star" in this context. "Astro" can be translated as "celestial body". Keith Pickering The Columbus Navigation Homepage http://www1.minn.net/~keithp From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Apr 16 01:44:10 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA28129 (ESMTP). Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:44:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA03707. Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:43:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA03703 (ESMTP). Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:43:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA12400 (ESMTP). Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:43:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d039.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.103]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA26981 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:43:06 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <005301bfa734$8a5aaec0$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "Luís Jorge Matos" To: References: <036801bfa709$1e14ff20$5c89b1d8@default> Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:44:16 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > > 2) Columbus undoubtedly navigated by dead reckoning, not celestial > navigation. > > Keith Pickering > The Columbus Navigation Homepage > http://www1.minn.net/~keithp Dead reckoning?... you mean he didn't observed the pole star to check up the latitude? Jorge Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Apr 16 02:59:05 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA00876 (ESMTP). Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:59:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA03789. Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:58:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA03780 (ESMTP). Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:58:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.203] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA00859 (ESMTP). Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:58:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [194.65.202.46] ([194.65.180.80]) by fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000416010124.YICX582.fep04-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.202.46]> for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:01:24 +0100 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000501bfa5b8$25ae2b00$924df6d1@default> References: <000601bfa41e$9a17fa20$dace3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:59:51 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] Re: Navigation by solar sighting Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO "John Flint" wrote: >It is interesting to note that the earliest cross staffs were marked not in >degrees of altitude but by marks labeled with the names of seaports. Dear Mr. John Flint: That is very interesting indeed (as proof of the rudimentary, but effective, state of development of that technique at the time) and I can tell you that probably the same happened with the quadrant in its first mentions of use by the Portuguese. We have a mention, not very clear, but that seems to suggest that a portuguese navigator, around 1462 (when navigating to Senegal and Guinea), was doing the same, marking places in the wood of his quadrant (and was indeed using a quadrant!). The text was narrated c.1495 (?) by the author, the Portuguese Diogo Gomes de Sintra, and written in a sort of latin by the German living in Portugal Martin Behaim (and included in a manuscript of c. 1507 sent to Germany by another German also living in Portugal, called Valentim Fernandes Alemao). It says: 'Et ego habebam quadrantem, quando iui ad partes istas, et scripsi in tabula quadrantis altitudinem poli arctici, et ipsum meliori inueni quam cartam'. TENTATIVE PORTUGUESE TRANSLATION: 'E eu tinha um quadrante, quando fui a estas partes [Guine], e escrevi na tabua do quadrante a altura do polo artico, e assim =E9 melhor do que com a carta'. TENTATIVE TRANSLATION I= N ENGLISH: 'And I had a quadrant when I went to these parts [Guinea], and I wrote in the quadrant's wood the height of the artic pole, and this way is better than with the chart'. This document is published in BAI=C3O, Ant=F3nio (ed.), 'O Manuscrito "Valen= tim =46ernandes"', Lisboa: Academia Portuguesa da Historia, 1940, p. 200 (in Latin), and in GOMES, Diogo, 'As Rela=E7=F5es do Descobrimento da Guin=E9 e = das Ilhas dos A=E7ores, Madeira e Cabo Verde', ed. Gabriel Pereira, s/l, s/d (in a bad portuguese traslation). That is the first documented use of an astronomical instrument on board a Portuguese ship of the time of the great discoveries, but does it indeed refers to c.1462 (when he went to Guinea in his youth), or does it refers to c.1495 (when he was old, and these things were more common in Portuguese maritime circles, and he was telling his story to Martin Behaim)...? We are not completely sure. Note that this mention is referred only to the observation of the Pole Star. The observation of the Sun, the preparation of tables of declination of the Sun for maritime purposes, and the creation of the text of the 'Regiment of the Sun', were processes only developed later by the Portuguese, in time of the 'Perfect Prince' King John II, c.1485. They were developed by Diego Ortiz de Vilhegas (the Portuguese Bishop that was a Spaniard by birth, and previously professor of astronomy in the University of Salamanca), Doctor Rodrigo de Lucena (the 'cosmografo-mor' of King John II and the same man that previously had been the physician of his grand-father Prince Peter of Coimbra, regent of Portugal, murdered in 1449), and the Jews Master Jose Vizinho and Master Abraham Zacuto. Abraham Zacuto only come to Portugal in 1492, and the first tables of declination based in his manuscript 'Almanach Perpetuum' were prepared in Portugal in 1493 and referred to the years 1493-1496. There was a previous one-year table, prepared in 1485 only by Diego Ortiz, Master Rodrigo and Master Jose, but certainly also based in the knowledge of Zacuto's manuscript (that was the table who served to the invention of astronomical navigation in Guinea by that year 1485). Later, with Zacuto already living in Portugal, the 'Almanach Perpetuum' was published in a printed version, in 1496, in a Portuguese town called Leiria (and new tables were produced at that time, referred to the years 1497-1500). > seamen's >rutters contained that information We do, of course, have prin= ted >declination tables for the fourteen hundreds. The oldest surviving Portuguese texts dealing with that (including tables of declination used for navigation) are the 'Guias Nauticos (the so-called 'Guia Nautico of Munich' c.1509, and the so-called 'Guia Nautico de Evora, c.1516). They have been studied by several historians during this century, and in the end they were published and studied in very good works (in critical editions) by my dear teacher and friend, the late Professor Luis de Albuquerque (deceased 1992). We can find the references in my Bibliography of the Discoveries, at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm , namely in the sections E.IV.A.1. General Views of Portuguese Nautical Science, E.IV.A.2. The Portuguese Creation and Development of Astronomical Navigation, E.IV.A.5. Nautical Literature in Portugal (General), E.IV.A.5.1. Portuguese Nautical Guides and Astronomical Regiments ("Guias N=E1uticos"), E.IV.A.5.2. Portuguese "Books of Seamanship" ("Livros de Marinharia"). I am not a researcher specialized in Astronomy or Astronomical Navigation (nor do I have the mathematical preparation needed for that), as my field of specialization is Cartography (portolan-charts, mappae-mundi, etc.), but my teacher Luis de Albuquerque was undoubtely the last (and also the greatest) of the Portuguese scholars devoted to Astronomical Navigation. > The seaman's astrolabe, >averaging some 6 inches in diameter, was widely >used for latitude >determination on land. The preferred method of use was >hanging the >instrument from a low tripod about a foot from the ground, aligning the >azimuth to the sun, and setting the sight vane so thata ray of light passed >through both peep holes and shone upon the ground. As far as we know that is exactly what the Portuguese with Vasco da Gama did, on shore, in South Africa, when preparing his ships for the rounding of the Cape of Good Gope, during Paulo and Vasco da Gama 1497-1499 voyage (with a big astrolabe in a tripod). In my previous posting I mentioned a similar process, most probably with smaller bronze astrolabs, with the pilot's hand in front of both peep holes (the hand being used for the same purpose as the ground, in a kind of 'coreography' similar to 'wheigting the Sun', for profane eyes, with the instrument in the hands of the pilot as if it was a balance). Hope these comments can be useful. With best wishes. Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 =46ax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras =46ax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL Visit the Bibliography of the Discoveries at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* DESIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Apr 16 02:59:05 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA00875 (ESMTP). Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:59:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA03792. Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:58:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA03785 (ESMTP). Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:58:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.200] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA12508 (ESMTP). Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:58:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [194.65.202.46] ([194.65.180.80]) by fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000416010153.RYEK8788.fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.202.46]> for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:01:53 +0100 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <036801bfa709$1e14ff20$5c89b1d8@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:00:21 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] Columbus, Zacuto, etc. Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO "Keith Pickering" wrote: >2) Columbus undoubtedly navigated by dead reckoning, not celestial >navigation. (...) Abraham Zacuto did not publish his first almanac until 1499. Dear Prof. Keith Pickering: I absolutelly agree with you, for in fact it seems to me that Columbus undoubtedly only navigated in 1492 (and even later) by dead reckoning, and was not familiar with astronomical navigation. And that would be one of the reasons -- or probably the main reason... -- for him to commit so huge errors, when giving latitudes... possibly being also another reason for that his will to 'locate' his new discovered lands more and more to the North... so that they stood far from Guinea and the South belonging to the Portuguese under the Portuguese-Castillian Treaty of Alcacovas-Toledo, of 1479-1480...). Please allow me only one minor correction to the contents of your last posting (certaily due to a mis-spell of the number in your typewriting): Abraham Zacuto's 'Almanach Perpetuum' was not published in 1499. It was printed in 1496, in Portugal (in a little Portuguese town called Leiria, by a printer, also Jew, called Tomas de Orta), when Zacuto himself was already living in Portugal (after he fled from Castile in 1492). But even before that (at least since 1485 ?), in manuscript versions Zacuto's tables were certainly already known in this side of the border -- and were the inspiration for the Portuguese astronomical navigation developments of that time, certainly by way of Diego Ortiz de Vilhegas (Calcadilha/Calzadilla) and probably Jose Vizinho. With best wishes. Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 Fax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras Fax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL Visit the Bibliography of the Discoveries at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* DESIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Apr 16 19:20:39 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA10246 (ESMTP). Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:20:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA04638. Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:20:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA04634 (ESMTP). Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:20:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from IDENT:root@mail.minn.net [216.177.129.2] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA13864 (ESMTP). Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:20:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default (pm2-3-17.dynamic.minn.net [216.177.137.112]) by mail.minn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA16927 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:20:09 -0500 Message-ID: <002a01bfa7c8$3dab5680$5289b1d8@default> From: "Keith Pickering" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Navigation by solar sighting Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:21:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > >Dead reckoning?... you mean he didn't observed the pole star to check up the >latitude? > >Jorge Matos > Jorge, That is correct. Colombus made no celestial latitude observations at all during the westbound transatlantic crossing. During the inter-island part of the voyage, he >attempted< celestial checks of latitude several times, but his results were faulty (and he realized that they were faulty on at least one of those occasions: see http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/cn.htm for details). On the eastbound passage, Columbus attempted a celestial latitude check once by quadrant and astrolabe (on February 3, 1493), but could not get a result because the waves were too high. My thanks also to Dr. Marques for correcting my faulty memory regarding the publication date of Abraham Zacuto's first Almanac. By the way, I have now added a link to Dr. Marques' exceptionally fine Bibliography of the Discoveries (http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm) to my pages. Keith Pickering The Columbus Navigation Homepage http://www1.minn.net/~keithp From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 17 01:07:07 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA29625 (ESMTP). Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:07:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA05175. Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:06:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA05171 (ESMTP). Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:06:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fep02-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.201] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA14597 (ESMTP). Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:06:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [194.65.202.37] by fep02-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000416230900.CCMT809.fep02-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.202.37]> for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:09:00 +0100 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002a01bfa7c8$3dab5680$5289b1d8@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:07:57 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] Re: Navigation by solar sighting Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO "Keith Pickering" wrote: > By the way, I have now added a link to (...) Bibliography >of the >>Discoveries (http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm) to my pages. Dear Prof. Keith Pickering: Thank you very much for your appreciation. It is a pleasure and an honour for me to see my Bibliography included as a link available in such a significant and useful resource as your Columbus page. With best wishes. Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 Fax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras Fax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL Visit the Bibliography of the Discoveries at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* DESIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Apr 18 06:29:36 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA10803 (ESMTP). Tue, 18 Apr 2000 06:29:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id GAA07235. Tue, 18 Apr 2000 06:27:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA07231 (ESMTP). Tue, 18 Apr 2000 06:27:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from panchito.Austria.EU.net [193.154.160.103] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id GAA10772 (ESMTP). Tue, 18 Apr 2000 06:27:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eunet.at (dialup012.ap01-wien.at.eu.net [193.154.184.12]) by panchito.Austria.EU.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19401 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 06:27:32 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38FBE48F.C9B7E780@eunet.at> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 06:29:03 +0200 From: HFK Organization: Castaway Network Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "discovery@win.tue.nl" Subject: [EXP] Austrian Polar History - update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Ladies and Gentlemen, this is just to let you know, that my History of the Austrian Polar Exploration 1761-1937 is now also available in English at www.arctic.at Regards Hermann F. Koerbel ****************************************** ARCTIC and ANTARCTIC Advice Agency Austria NEW http://www.arctic.at NEW the only true POLAR INFORMATION in Austria ****************************************** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 19 09:43:52 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA13179 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:43:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id JAA23961. Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:39:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA23957 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:39:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from flaunden.mail.easynet.net [195.40.0.161] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA12966 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:39:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by flaunden.mail.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CF7CA4D19 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:39:28 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 35907 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 07:39:25 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 19 Apr 2000 07:39:25 -0000 Message-ID: <38FD624B.C4279D3F@easynet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:37:47 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re:Spanish botanical expeditions References: <001001bfa5a9$e19bbf80$45cc3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I would be delighted if one of our Spanish scholars could provide me with information on VICENTE CERVANTES, MARTIN DE SESSE and JOSE LONGINO MARTINEZ. They were scientists sent by Carlos III to Mexico in the 18th century, on an expedition to collect plants for the Royal Botanical Gardens in Madrid. I so far have only their names. None of my books mention them, and, as far as I know, nothing of their work has been translated into English. Any information would be very much appreciated. Best wishes Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 19 13:15:49 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA27827 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:15:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA25275. Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:15:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA25271 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:15:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from beothuk.swgc.mun.ca [198.165.18.1] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA27805 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:15:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from woodstock.swgc.mun.ca ([198.165.18.9]) by beothuk.swgc.mun.ca with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id JHMW7XAB; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:45:15 -0230 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:45:13 -0230 (NDT) From: Olaf Janzen To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re:Spanish botanical expeditions In-Reply-To: <38FD624B.C4279D3F@easynet.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is just a stab in the dark (I don't have a copy of the book myself), but might John Kendrick's recent book on Malaspina have information on these three? John Kendrick, "Alejandro Malaspina: Portrait of a Visionary," Montreal and Kingston: McGill-Queen's University Press, 1999. xi + 200 pp., illustrations, map, notes, bibliography, index. CAN $34.95, cloth; ISBN 0-7735-1830-4. Olaf Janzen Corner Brook, Newfoundland **************************************************************************** On Wed, 19 Apr 2000, Ray Howgego wrote: > I would be delighted if one of our Spanish scholars could provide me > with information on VICENTE CERVANTES, MARTIN DE SESSE and JOSE LONGINO > MARTINEZ. They were scientists sent by Carlos III to Mexico in the 18th > century, on an expedition to collect plants for the Royal Botanical > Gardens in Madrid. > > I so far have only their names. None of my books mention them, and, as > far as I know, nothing of their work has been translated into English. > > Any information would be very much appreciated. > > Best wishes > > Ray Howgego > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Apr 19 15:31:49 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA06978 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:31:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA25536. Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:31:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA25532 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:31:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from plutonium.uunet.be [194.7.15.87] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA06958 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:31:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pub00721 (pool056-194-7-42-16.uunet.be [194.7.42.16]) by plutonium.uunet.be (8.9.1/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA25626 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:31:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004201bfaa03$867c9a80$102a07c2@pub00721> From: "Johan Deckers" To: "discoverylist" Subject: [EXP] expedition to New Guinea Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:31:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I'm looking for more information about an expedition by the Melbourne Argus to New Guinea in 1883 led by William Edington Armit and an eccentric American scientist Professor William Denton. Denton didn't survive the expedition. Kind regards Johan Deckers From owner-frc@trolltech.com Wed Apr 19 15:51:00 2000 Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA07938 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:51:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lupinella.troll.no [195.0.254.19] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA28065 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:50:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by trolltech.com id ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:50:16 +0200 Sender: owner-frc@trolltech.com Precedence: list X-Loop: frc X-Lotus-FromDomain: ADP From: cleonhar@adpims.com To: frc@trolltech.com Message-ID: <852568C6.004BDD71.00@mail.adpims.com> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:48:38 -0400 Subject: 135:7 VALID +1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Status: RO 135:7 [v] (Ronald Kunne, 2000-04-19 09:59:19 GMT) VALID +1 >>>>>>>>>> The next valid rule shall contain the exact text of an earlier valid rule except for replacement of at least five words containing the letter 'x'. The resulting rule must be grammatically correct and describe how the next rule must be formed. >>>>>>>>>> Validity: If this rule is valid then "the sixth rule" mentioned in 135:6 cannot plausibly have referred to 135:6 itself (since this rule is not a rearrangement of that one), and must therefor refer to the next valid rule after this one (i.e., the sixth valid rule). This seems fine to me. VALID. Style: By feeding back into the next valid rule (which 135:6 already restricts), an opportunity has been squandered to establish a second, independent "thread of execution," but I won't penalize for this. STYLE +1. -W/J Christian -- Rule Date: 2000-04-19 13:50:16 GMT From owner-frc@trolltech.com Wed Apr 19 16:10:21 2000 Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA09574 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:10:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lupinella.troll.no [195.0.254.19] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA28094 (ESMTP). Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:01:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by trolltech.com id ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:01:11 +0200 Sender: owner-frc@trolltech.com Precedence: list X-Loop: frc X-Lotus-FromDomain: ADP From: cleonhar@adpims.com To: frc@trolltech.com Message-ID: <852568C6.004CE85E.00@mail.adpims.com> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:00:01 -0400 Subject: Re: 135:7 VALID +1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Status: RO 135:6 states that: >The sixth rule shall contain the exact text of this one except for the >possible addition, deletion, or modification of seven of the words in this >one. *In the next rule the words may be rearranged.* They may be >repunctuated. Obviously, if Ronald's 135:7 is valid, then the "next rule" referred to here must refer to the next rule *after the sixth*, which is how I interpreted it on first reading. Andre's 135:7 (now 135:8) suggests another reasonable interpretation of this (i.e., the next rule after 135:6), but my original interpretation remains plausible to me, and has the virtue of permitting 135:7 to be valid. Just wanted to clear up any confusion as to whether or not I may have overlooked this. -W/J Christian -- Rule Date: 2000-04-19 14:01:11 GMT From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Apr 20 09:58:10 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA28737 (ESMTP). Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:58:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id JAA26997. Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:57:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA26991 (ESMTP). Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:57:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from flaunden.mail.easynet.net [195.40.0.161] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id JAA01357 (ESMTP). Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:57:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by flaunden.mail.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D8ABA4E31 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 08:57:15 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 27986 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2000 07:57:14 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 20 Apr 2000 07:57:14 -0000 Message-ID: <38FEB7EF.53D50ECF@easynet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 08:55:27 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] expedition to New Guinea References: <004201bfaa03$867c9a80$102a07c2@pub00721> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Johan In my library I have Ian Stuart's "Port Moresby, yesterday and today" (Sydney 1970). This has four pages on the Armit-Denton expedition to New Guinea. As I don't have time to copy it, I will send a scanned image of the pages to your personal e-mail address as a gif file, later today. As the file is large (200kb) I will forward it to other members of the group only if they express an interest. Best wishes Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Apr 20 22:04:33 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA11459 (ESMTP). Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:04:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA29262. Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:04:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA29258 (ESMTP). Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:03:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA11412 (ESMTP). Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:03:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.205.90]) by ssmtp01.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Apr 11 2000 15:38:15) with SMTP id FTBZMV06.V2U for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:01:43 +0200 Message-ID: <002a01bfab02$e43499c0$5acd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Re:Spanish botanical expeditions Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 21:59:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I do not know these people, sorry, but I believe that "the plants" was carried to "royal botanic gardens of Tenerife ( Canary I.)"...the weather of Madrid is not very tropical...I remember this gardens in Tenerife J. anaya Asunto: [EXP] Re:Spanish botanical expeditions |I would be delighted if one of our Spanish scholars could provide me |with information on VICENTE CERVANTES, MARTIN DE SESSE and JOSE LONGINO |MARTINEZ. They were scientists sent by Carlos III to Mexico in the 18th |century, on an expedition to collect plants for the Royal Botanical |Gardens in Madrid. | |I so far have only their names. None of my books mention them, and, as |far as I know, nothing of their work has been translated into English. | |Any information would be very much appreciated. | |Best wishes | |Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Apr 20 23:12:01 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA14378 (ESMTP). Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:12:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA29985. Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:11:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA29981 (ESMTP). Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:11:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA05415 (ESMTP). Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:11:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d057.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.121]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA03443 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:11:32 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <00e801bfab0d$417b7e00$f3bdfea9@principal> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lu=EDs_Jorge_Matos?= To: References: <004201bfaa03$867c9a80$102a07c2@pub00721> <38FEB7EF.53D50ECF@easynet.co.uk> <38FEAA8B.C0B94032@dccnet.com> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:12:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E2_01BFAB15.8A01CD20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E2_01BFAB15.8A01CD20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Greetings: Sir Francis Drake captured a ship on the Pacific coast of Central America and this ship was reported to belong to a Rodrigo Tello. Sincerely Ralph Heading I just read the first sentence of your question and i felt that you must learn one thing (and i'm not spanish): if you say "Sir Francis Drake" you must say "Don Rodrigo Telo" too. If you say "Rodrigo Telo" you must cut the "sir" in Francis Drake. OK?... Sincerely Jorge Matos ------=_NextPart_000_00E2_01BFAB15.8A01CD20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings:=20
    Sir Francis Drake captured a ship on the = Pacific coast=20 of Central America and this ship was reported to belong to a Rodrigo=20 Tello. 
=
           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;  =20 Sincerely=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;          =20 Ralph   Heading
 
I just read the first sentence of your question and i felt that you = must=20 learn one thing (and i'm not spanish): if you say "Sir Francis Drake" = you must=20 say "Don Rodrigo Telo" too. If you say "Rodrigo Telo" you must cut = the=20 "sir" in Francis Drake. OK?...
 
Sincerely
 
Jorge Matos
------=_NextPart_000_00E2_01BFAB15.8A01CD20-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 21 00:48:42 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA18140 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:48:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA06216. Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:48:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA06212 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:48:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA18073 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:48:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.206.141]) by ssmtp04.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FTC7BW07.MJ3 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:47:56 +0100 Message-ID: <000b01bfab19$d5765f60$8dce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:43:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Thank you..Jorge Matos... but... maybe that this title..."Don"... is much less used in Spain that what is believed in others countries...To spaniards, today, it sounds strange. Nobody calls to the Premier ot to other minister "Don..." for example... It is a bit similar with the "Dear" or the "sire"... very formal and a little bit folkloric.. Maybe that in that time, when Drake, the "Don" (=fron Latin " dominus "), it was a I title reserved to "earth proprietors or persons with high studies." Maybe that this sailor didn't enter in these two groups... but...thank you... Jose Anaya Asunto: Re: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains | |-------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- |-- | | | Greetings: | Sir Francis Drake captured a ship on the Pacific coast of Central |America and this ship was reported to belong to a Rodrigo Tello. | |Sincerely | |Ralph Heading | |I just read the first sentence of your question and i felt that you must |learn one thing (and i'm not spanish): if you say "Sir Francis Drake" you |must say "Don Rodrigo Telo" too. If you say "Rodrigo Telo" you must cut the |"sir" in Francis Drake. OK?... | |Sincerely | |Jorge Matos | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 21 01:14:30 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA23511 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:14:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA06241. Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:14:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA06237 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:14:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA05953 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:14:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [139.142.113.60] (helo=[139.142.113.60]) by mail.islandnet.com with ESMTP id 12iQ99-0007sJ-00 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:14:08 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38FEAA8B.C0B94032@dccnet.com> References: <004201bfaa03$867c9a80$102a07c2@pub00721> <38FEB7EF.53D50ECF@easynet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:12:45 -0700 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: baytext Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Ralph Heading stated: > Sir Francis Drake captured a ship on the Pacific coast of Central >America and this ship was reported to belong to a Rodrigo Tello. Jorge Matos got cross because Rodrigo Tello didn't get entitled "don". In fact, Drake wasn't "Sir Francis" at the time, but was only raised to the noble rank of knight, justifying the honorific "Sir", upon his return in 1579. In Spanish custom, the use of "don" does not necessarily require high birth or elevation by the Monarch, no? Perhaps nearer the term "Esquire". Michael Layland (just plain mister, will suffice) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 21 01:57:53 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA24577 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:57:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA06292. Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:57:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA06288 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:57:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA24568 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:57:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d051.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.115]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA12696 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:57:16 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <003901bfab24$603631c0$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "Luís Jorge Matos" To: References: <000b01bfab19$d5765f60$8dce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:57:41 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: j. anaya To: Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 11:43 PM Subject: RE: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains > Thank you..Jorge Matos... but... > maybe that this title..."Don"... is much less used in Spain > that what is believed in others countries...To spaniards, > today, it sounds strange. Nobody calls to the Premier > ot to other minister "Don..." for example... > It is a bit similar with the "Dear" or the "sire"... > very formal and a little bit folkloric.. > Perhaps it is very formal or folkloric, but it is so formal or folkloric then "sir". Specialy i find that is no way to talk. I agreed that is not important to put the "don" or the "sir" but if we use one we must use the other too. I'm sorry Jorge Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 21 02:03:45 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA25673 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 02:03:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA06320. Fri, 21 Apr 2000 02:03:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA06316 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 02:03:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA25634 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 02:03:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d051.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.115]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA13012 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:03:26 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <004101bfab25$3cde3b40$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "Luís Jorge Matos" To: References: <004201bfaa03$867c9a80$102a07c2@pub00721><38FEB7EF.53D50ECF@easynet.co.uk> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:04:53 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: baytext To: Sent: Friday, April 21, 2000 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains > Ralph Heading stated: > > Sir Francis Drake captured a ship on the Pacific coast of Central > >America and this ship was reported to belong to a Rodrigo Tello. > > Jorge Matos got cross because Rodrigo Tello didn't get entitled "don". No you are wrong. I've got cross because Mr. Ralph Heading put the title "sir" in Francis Drake and just clled the spainish captain by Rodrigo Telo. If he found that was necessary to use the sir, i suppose that he should use de don too. (just) Jorge Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 21 04:12:34 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA00943 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:12:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA13765. Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:12:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA13761 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:12:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.deltacable.com [207.230.239.70] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA00937 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:12:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dccnet.com (unverified [216.13.237.19]) by yoda.dccnet.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 3.4.6) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:10:44 -0700 Message-ID: <38FF484B.91ABC346@dccnet.com> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:11:26 +0100 From: jwood Organization: Joseph Wood Construction X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains References: <004201bfaa03$867c9a80$102a07c2@pub00721> <38FEB7EF.53D50ECF@easynet.co.uk> <38FEAA8B.C0B94032@dccnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Drake: Let's see if this man Tello is entitled to be called anything , Drake earned his title by stealing silver from the Spanish, and being the first captain to round the clock , how these men met is history if indeed they encountered each other again , that is serendipity , and that's what makes this all so interesting. Now Don Rodrigo Tello, was captain of a barque which was stolen from him by Sir Francis Drake. Drake seems to have been a good judge of ships, and is it possible that he migrated back to Spain and moved north with the Armada. Drake the English hero or Drake the Spanish criminal ? Ralph Heading From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Apr 21 05:28:43 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA03752 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 05:28:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA13851. Fri, 21 Apr 2000 05:28:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA13847 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 05:28:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA03741 (ESMTP). Fri, 21 Apr 2000 05:28:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.205.224]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FTCK7N00.U0X for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 05:26:11 +0200 Message-ID: <000401bfab40$fba7d480$e0cd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 05:23:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This seaman "Don Tello" or similar, is unknow person in Spain. When Drake arrived to the Pacific, already enough time before the Spaniards navigated for this ocean. There was even a regular line of ships among Mexico and Philipine islands, before Drake... This Tello was possibly one more seaman dedicated to maritime transport (he was not a discoverer neither a conqueror) It is as the giving of the name of a " truck driver" and to ask if he is a famous man... Regarding Drake, there was not " phobia " against him in Spain. Even in Spain was eulogized because his courage, his bravery (by strange that seems), something like with Rommel in England, or with German submarines of the Second World War, in England : certain admiration. Frecuently the captured english pirate-mariners of the Pacific was engaged as sailors by spaniards, if they change to catholicism, because the big deficit of mariners that existed in the Pacific Ocean. The first captain to round the globe, was not Drake but a spanish basque man named "Juan Sebastian Elcano". Jose Anaya xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Asunto: Re: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains |Drake: | Let's see if this man Tello is entitled to be called anything , Drake |earned his title by stealing silver from the Spanish, and being the |first captain to round the clock , how these men met is history if |indeed they encountered each other again , that is serendipity , and |that's what makes this all so interesting. Now Don Rodrigo Tello, was |captain of a barque which was stolen from him by Sir Francis Drake. |Drake seems to have been a good judge of ships, and is it possible that |he migrated back to Spain and moved north with the Armada. | Drake the English hero or Drake the Spanish criminal ? | |Ralph Heading | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Apr 23 04:16:10 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA23312 (ESMTP). Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:16:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA16932. Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:14:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA16928 (ESMTP). Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:14:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA22975 (ESMTP). Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:14:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.206.104]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1) with SMTP id FTG64O05.51T for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:12:24 +0200 Message-ID: <000601bfacc9$01ca43a0$68ce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:09:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO More about the title of "Don"...It is also a english title (!)..: " Don": title of the professor in Oxford or Cambridge... The original I believe is of latin "dominus": man with "dominion" (of land, of slaves, of science..) j.anaya Asunto: RE: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains | Thank you..Jorge Matos... but... |maybe that this title..."Don"... is much less used in Spain |that what is believed in others countries...To spaniards, |today, it sounds strange. Nobody calls to the Premier |ot to other minister "Don..." for example... |It is a bit similar with the "Dear" or the "sire"... |very formal and a little bit folkloric.. | |Maybe that in that time, when Drake, |the "Don" (=fron Latin " dominus "), it was a I title reserved |to "earth proprietors or persons with high studies." | Maybe that this sailor didn't enter in these two groups... |but...thank you... | |Jose Anaya | |Asunto: Re: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains | | || ||------------------------------------------------------------------------- - |-- ||-- || || || Greetings: || Sir Francis Drake captured a ship on the Pacific coast of Central ||America and this ship was reported to belong to a Rodrigo Tello. || ||Sincerely || ||Ralph Heading || ||I just read the first sentence of your question and i felt that you must ||learn one thing (and i'm not spanish): if you say "Sir Francis Drake" you ||must say "Don Rodrigo Telo" too. If you say "Rodrigo Telo" you must cut |the ||"sir" in Francis Drake. OK?... || ||Sincerely || ||Jorge Matos || | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Apr 23 05:23:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA25673 (ESMTP). Sun, 23 Apr 2000 05:23:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA17045. Sun, 23 Apr 2000 05:23:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA17041 (ESMTP). Sun, 23 Apr 2000 05:23:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA25665 (ESMTP). Sun, 23 Apr 2000 05:22:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d055.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.119]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA17196 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:22:30 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <000901bfacd3$6c52b5e0$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "Luís Jorge Matos" To: References: <000601bfacc9$01ca43a0$68ce3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:23:39 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: j. anaya To: Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 3:09 AM Subject: RE: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains > > More about the title of "Don"...It is also a english > title (!)..: " Don": title of the professor in Oxford or Cambridge... > The original I believe is of latin "dominus": > man with "dominion" (of land, of slaves, of science..) > j.anaya > > I beleve it comes from the "dominus, domini" and that can mean the owner of something, but it is a respectable designation too, like mister. It was used in old portuguese language for noble men and it is used in spanish and italian for a respectable person. But my question was the difference of treatment (Sir Francis Drake vs Rodrigo Telo). It's not the problem of the hero or the criminal, it's the attitude of the historian. You can do as you wish, but (in my opinion) the treatment difference suppose that you have a connotation in the study. Jorge Matos From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 24 02:38:22 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA15789 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:38:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA18131. Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:38:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA18127 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:37:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA15784 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:37:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.205.122]) by ssmtp01.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Apr 11 2000 15:38:15) with SMTP id FTHWBK02.U19 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:35:44 +0200 Message-ID: <000601bfad84$abbde360$7acd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: [EXP] Sebastian Cabot Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:33:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Sebastian Cabot said that "he had discovered the secret of the sailing to the China" : The strait of Hudson?. That in 1508, in América, he had arrived to a land, beyond 58°N, with bears, foxes and partridges, of white color: Baffin island? and that his father John had arrived to America in 1493 (not 1497) . j.anaya anay@arrakis.es From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 24 04:49:11 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA24059 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Apr 2000 04:49:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA18300. Mon, 24 Apr 2000 04:48:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA18296 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Apr 2000 04:48:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f161.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.161] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA13903 (SMTP). Mon, 24 Apr 2000 04:48:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 10480 invoked by uid 0); 24 Apr 2000 02:47:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20000424024756.10479.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 63.17.252.124 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 19:47:56 PDT X-Originating-IP: [63.17.252.124] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Sebastian Cabot Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 19:47:56 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO j. anaya wrote: >Sebastian Cabot said that "he had discovered the secret >of the sailing to the China" : The strait of Hudson?. >That in 1508, in América, he had arrived to a land, > beyond 58°N, with bears, foxes and partridges, > of white color: Baffin island? >and that his father John had arrived to America > in 1493 (not 1497) . The first two claims (of the many contradictory claims Sebastian made and his contemporaries made about him) are fairly well-kinown. Of the scholars, primarily English and American, who chose to ignore the statements he made that do not support his going to Hudson Strait in 1508, these two stements are about all the supporting evidence there is. Of those scholars who do not believe that Sebastian went to Hudson Strait, there are plenty of other statements by Sebastian and by his contemporaries to indicate he did not go. If he said everthing that his contemporaries said he had said, then, at times, he was a bald-faced liar. In short, an impartial analysis of all potentially significant evidence regarding Sebastian's maritime activities (excepting the well-known and disastrous voyage to La Plata) still remains to be done -- at least to my satisfaction (if I may be the judge). I do not believe Sebastian ever specified the year of 1508. I think it's an inference others have made from what he said and from what others said he said. Also, notice how much of what we "know" about Sebastian is hearsay. But, where did you read that he said his father, John (Giovanni; Zuan), arrived in America in 1493? Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Apr 24 23:51:02 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA06592 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:51:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA19356. Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:50:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA19352 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:50:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA06572 (ESMTP). Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:50:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.204.93]) by ssmtp01.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.1 Apr 11 2000 15:38:15) with SMTP id FTJJ8305.J49 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:48:03 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01bfae36$6971dcc0$5dcc3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Sebastian Cabot Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:44:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I was mistaken, in that year (1493). the year that appears is the date of "1494" I believe that this date appears written in two old maps: one is in the map that made Sebastian Cabot. In the note 8 of this map. (this map of Sebastian Cabot was printed in Antwerp, in 1544. In this map Sebastian also indicates that his father touched in North America in 50° N. (in cape S. John, in Newfounland, in Baie Verte Peninsula?) This map is in Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris. This map is interesting because they appear in it meridians and parallels. The date 1494 appears in another map: "Carta Universal " of Sancho Gutierrez, made in Seville, in 1551. This chart is in National Library of Vienna. In the superior part of this map, in North America, it appears a poster that says: "This land was discovered by Joan Caboto Venetian and Sebastian Caboto his son the year of the birth of our saving Jesuchristo MCCCCXCIIII, June 24 in the morning to which they put name "first land seen"... and to this big island that is part of this land it was put the name of Saint John because to have been discovered the same day. [Cape S. John of East Coast of Newfounland ? first land seen of North America ?] (the date of 1494, obviously is a mistake of S.Cabot) Jose Anaya anay@arrakis.es |Asunto: Re: [EXP] Sebastian Cabot | |But, where did you read that he said his father, John (Giovanni; Zuan), |arrived in America in 1493? | |Greg McIntosh |plusultra@hotmail.com |________________________________________________________________________ |Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Apr 25 11:51:13 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA10825 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:51:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id LAA20323. Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:47:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA20319 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:47:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id LAA02589. Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:47:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200004250947.LAA02589@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Sebastian Cabot In-Reply-To: <000601bfad84$abbde360$7acd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> from "j. anaya" at "Apr 24, 2000 2:33:10 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:47:43 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO j. anaya wrote: > Sebastian Cabot said that "he had discovered the secret > of the sailing to the China" : The strait of Hudson?. This is often claimed, but in my opinion the information is too vague to be conclusive. There are many more features on the American coastline that could be believed to be the strait - Cumberland Sound, Frobisher Bay, Groswater Bay, Strait of Belle Isle, Cabot Strait, Bay of Fundy, Long Island Sound, the mouth of the Hudson, Delaware Bay, Chesapeake Bay. As far as I know, no evidence exists to point which strait or bay Sebastian actually saw. > That in 1508, in América, he had arrived to a land, > beyond 58°N, with bears, foxes and partridges, > of white color: Baffin island? Quite possible. > and that his father John had arrived to America > in 1493 (not 1497) . My first reaction was that this was mis-remembered, or perhaps mis-copied. But it sounds improbable that such an important date were misremembered. Might be a copyist's error, or a deliberately false statement to make his father's exploits even grander. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Apr 25 17:32:11 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA03100 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:32:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA20676. Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:31:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA20672 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:31:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA20707 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:30:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from 209-122-203-52.s306.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([209.122.203.52] helo=sanderva) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12k7IG-0002Jk-00 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:30:33 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.20000425112117.006a995c@pop.erols.com> X-Sender: sanderva@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) -- [Cornell Modified] Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:21:17 -0400 To: From: Jeanne & Tom Sander Subject: [EXP] "The Portolan" (Washington Map Society) - Issue 47 - Early Japanese Maps; A New Look at the Vinland Map; How the Library of Congress collects maps; Women on maps; A Review of "The British Library Map Catalogue on CD-ROM." and more. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO "THE PORTOLAN": JOURNAL OF THE WASHINGTON MAP SOCIETY ISSUE 47 (Spring 2000) -------------------------------------------------------------- Issue 47 (Spring 2000), consisting of 64 pages, including numerous illustrated articles, was published in April 2000 and has been sent to all subscribers and members in good standing of the Washington Map Society. This issue contains a fascinating article on Japanese maps that won honorable mention in the1999 Ristow Prize competition, and a comprehensive review of the new British Library Map Catalogue on CD-ROM. Also, a detailed article by a scientist/geographer just permitted access to the Vinland Map in preparation for a major exhibition on Vikings opening in late April in Washington, D.C. The Library of Congress reveals how it collects maps, and Professor Darby Lewes gives a lengthy expose of how men have depicted women on maps in the last several hundred years. "The Portolan" is published three times per year; issue 48 is expected to be released in September 2000. ---------------------------------------------------------------- CONTENTS OF ISSUE 47 - Spring 2000 ARTICLES "Geographic Representations of the T=F4kaid=F4 from Edo to Meiji Japan." by Jilly Traganou, Ph. D. This paper received honorable mention in the 1999 Ristow Prize Competition in Cartographic History and Map Librarianship. "What's New About the Vinland Map?" by Douglas McNaughton. "Acquisition of Cartographic Material from the Viewpoint of an Institutional Collector - The Library of Congress." by James Flatness. "The Feminine Landscape, or Gynocartography: Treating Women Like Dirt." by Dr. Darby Lewes. CD-ROM REVIEW "The British Library Map Catalogue on CD-ROM" (Review by John W. Docktor). RECENT PUBLICATIONS A regular feature in "The Portolan," this is a bibliographic listing of articles and books appearing worldwide on antique maps and globes and the history of cartography. By Eric W. Wolf.=20 SHORTER ITEMS 1. Washington Map Society Meetings, May - September 2000. 2. Exhibitions and Meetings, Into the Year 2001. 3. New Washington Map Society Membership Chair - Bert Johnson. 4. Ristow Prize Competition 2000. 5. Map Site Seeing, key World Wide Web map sites. 6. "Cartographic Notes." By Thomas F. Sander. AUTHORS OF ARTICLES IN THIS ISSUE=20 JILLY TRAGANOU, Ph.D., is a post-doctorate researcher at Tokyo Keizai University in Japan. She holds a doctorate from the University of Westminster in London, UK, and received a degree in Architecture from Aristotle University in Thessaloniki, Greece. Dr. Traganou taught in England and the United States. Her theoretical work focuses mainly on issues of spatial representation and the traveling cultures of Japan. DOUGLAS McNAUGHTON is a retired Defense analyst currently engaged in researching various historical charts and navigation problems. He has a dual educational background in classical studies and high energy physics and has had previous associations with the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and various programs with the Department of Defense and outside research institutes. Mr. McNaughton was given authority to select maps from European collections for the Smithsonian's "Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga" exhibit and was permitted special access to the Vinland Map at Yale. He shares his observations and those of many experts on the subject. JAMES FLATNESS is the lead cartographic acquisition specialist at the Geography and Map Division, Library of Congress. He is also past president of the Washington Map Society. DR. DARBY LEWES earned her Ph.D. from the University of Chicago with a dissertation entitled "Gynotopia 1860-1920: Genre and Gender." Her "Portolan" article is part of her forthcoming book "Nudes from Nowhere: Utopian Sexual Landscapes." Dr. Lewes currently serves as Associate Professor of English at Lycoming College in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. =20 JOHN W. DOCKTOR, M.D., is past-president of the Washington Map Society. His special interest is the mapping of Pennsylvania and his articles in "The Portolan" include "Mapping the Borders of Pennsylvania, 1681-1921" (Issue 39 - Fall 1997) and "John Adlum -- Tanner, Soldier, Surveyor, Cartographer, Viticulturist" (Issue 46 - Winter 1999-2000). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Web Site for more information about the Washington Map Society is=20 http://users.supernet.com/pages/jdocktor/washmap.htm Web Site with a listing of the contents of all issues of "The Portolan" to date is http://users.supernet.com/pages/jdocktor/portolan.htm Membership Cost: Membership in the Washington Map Society may be commenced at any time. For U.S. and Canadian addressees, membership is US $28.00 per year. For foreign addressees, the cost is US $ 34.00, which includes airmail posting of "The Portolan". Payment is accepted in US dollars only. Not able to accept credit cards. A membership form can be found at the Washington Map Society Web Site. Contact Membership Chairman Bert Johnson, 2101 Huntington Avenue, Alexandria, VA 22303-1547, USA or e-mail him at mandraki@erols.com Subscription Cost. Subscription cost is the same as membership. Sample Copies: Sample copies of "The Portolan" beginning with issue 44 = cost US$ 9.00 postpaid for US and Canadian addressees; the cost is US$ 11.00 to other countries, which includes airmail posting. Payment is accepted in US dollars only. Issues 43 and earlier are available at a lower cost. Inquiries concerning "The Portolan" should be directed to the Editor. **************************************** Posted By: =20 Thomas F. Sander Editor, The Portolan Washington Map Society P.O. Box 10793 Burke, VA 22009-0793 USA =20 =20 Phone: 703 426 2880 International: +1 703 426 2880 Fax: 703 426 2881 International: +1 703 426 2881 E-mail: Sanderva@erols.com ************************************************** excuse cross posting From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Apr 25 18:03:55 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA05199 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:03:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA20764. Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:03:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA20760 (ESMTP). Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:03:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f59.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.59] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA05174 (SMTP). Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:03:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 99784 invoked by uid 0); 25 Apr 2000 16:03:03 -0000 Message-ID: <20000425160303.99783.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 12.13.238.140 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:03:03 PDT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.140] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Sebastian Cabot Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:03:03 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO > > and that his father John had arrived to America > > in 1493 (not 1497) . > >My first reaction was that this was mis-remembered, or perhaps mis-copied. >But it sounds improbable that such an important date were misremembered. >Might be a copyist's error, or a deliberately false statement to make his >father's exploits even grander. The 1494 date on the Cabot Map of 1544 is usually attributed to a copyist error. But the same "error" occurs on the later Spanish-made Guiterrez map. And in the writings of John Dee in England in the later part of the sixteenth century. Robert Thorne made a claim for this date also. Too many coincidental copyist errors? Or repeated recopying of the same error? Harry Kelsey wrote on well-researched article on this issue of the 1494 date in Terrae Incognitae (The Journal of the Society for the History of Discoveries). He leans toward accepting the 1494 as the date for aome voyage. Kelsey, Harry, "The Planispheres of Sebastian Cabot and Sancho Gutiérrez," Terrae Incognitea, vol. 19 (1987): 41-58. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 6 22:41:33 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA25666 (ESMTP). Sat, 6 May 2000 22:41:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA10849. Sat, 6 May 2000 22:40:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA10845 (ESMTP). Sat, 6 May 2000 22:40:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA21680 (ESMTP). Sat, 6 May 2000 22:40:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.207.105]) by ssmtp04.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FU5O2R07.L37 for ; Sat, 6 May 2000 21:40:03 +0100 Message-ID: <000601bfb79a$996a7280$69cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Corterreal Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 22:35:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO |As far as is known, the last time the Scandinavian Greenland colonists have |been seen was in 1408, when two priests land on Greenland after having been |blown off course and witness a marriage ceremony there. By the time of |Corte-Real's and Fernandes's voyages, the colonies had disappeared - both |in reality and in European memory. |Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 ------------------ It is later visit possibly the visit that did to Greenland Claudius Clavus in that he narrates that he had seen that the " pagan carelians" are invading Greenland, entering from the north, coming from a land located to the other side of the North Pole (Alaska ). jose anaya anay@arrakis.es From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Apr 20 17:00:15 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA25813 (ESMTP). Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:00:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA28745. Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:59:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA28741 (ESMTP). Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:59:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.deltacable.com [207.230.239.70] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA25747 (ESMTP). Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:59:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dccnet.com (unverified [216.13.237.117]) by yoda.dccnet.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 3.4.6) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 07:57:41 -0700 Message-ID: <38FEAA8B.C0B94032@dccnet.com> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 07:58:20 +0100 From: jwood Organization: Joseph Wood Construction X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re: 17th c. Spanish captains References: <004201bfaa03$867c9a80$102a07c2@pub00721> <38FEB7EF.53D50ECF@easynet.co.uk> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------007B16707003451377D42B13" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------007B16707003451377D42B13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------007B16707003451377D42B13 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"; name="tello letter" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Netscape Communicatorª Document Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tello letter" Content-Base: "file:///Macintosh%20HD/Desktop%20Folde r/tello%20letter" Greetings:
    Sir Francis Drake captured a ship on the Pacific coast of Central America and this ship was reported to belong to a Rodrigo Tello.
    During the attack upon Eng. by the Spanish Armada the ship which carried correspondence from the fleet admiral to the waiting army and back again was Rodrigo Tello. Is this the same person and does anyone have any insight into the type of ship favoured by this captain.
    Drake claimed that the ship he captured in the New World inapprox. 1578, was so useful to him , that even if it was his father's he would have taken it. Further to move through such dangerous waters as the English channel with such important information must have required an exceptional craft , but I await  the confirmation that these persons named Tello are one and the same and that the task of  courier is an accurate description of his role during that conflict.
                                                                                                                            Sincerely
                                                                                                                        Ralph   Heading --------------007B16707003451377D42B13--