From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu May 4 08:40:26 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA00282 (ESMTP). Thu, 4 May 2000 08:40:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id IAA06549. Thu, 4 May 2000 08:37:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA06545 (ESMTP). Thu, 4 May 2000 08:37:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA00156 (SMTP). Thu, 4 May 2000 08:37:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 61426 invoked from network); 4 May 2000 06:37:33 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 4 May 2000 06:37:33 -0000 Message-ID: <39111A2E.45EF57F7@easynet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 07:35:26 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Information needed References: <38E852A4.DFC4606B@easynet.co.uk> <38E8FE36.27E1C413@eunet.at> <38E9920E.F1A88D71@easynet.co.uk> <38E9ADA1.2D6FC08B@eto.ericsson.se> <3.0.2.32.20000405110020.008d36b0@pop3.concentric.net> <38EC6671.83C3F1D5@eto.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear members of the discussion group. I would be very grateful if somebody could provide me with information on two more travellers about whom I know absolutely nothing apart from the titles of their books: JOHANN ANDERSON (1674-1743), who sailed to Iceland, Greenland and the Davis Strait, and ADOLPH ESCHELSKROON (dates unknown), who explored Ceylon, the Nicobar islands and Sumatra some time before 1781 when his book was published. Best wishes Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 5 00:31:07 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA27807 (ESMTP). Fri, 5 May 2000 00:31:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA07962. Fri, 5 May 2000 00:30:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA07958 (ESMTP). Fri, 5 May 2000 00:30:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA27790 (ESMTP). Fri, 5 May 2000 00:30:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.207.87]) by ssmtp04.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FU23UD01.52K for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 23:30:13 +0100 Message-ID: <000a01bfb617$a9a30740$57cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: [EXP] Corterreal Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 00:25:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Gaspar Corterreal was in Greenland, in the year 1500. It is possible that the good map of Greenland that appears in the Cantino map was made by he ? I have read that when he returned to Europe, he said that it had been in "Terra Verdre" or "Terra Verde"(= green land) although maybe he referred to Newfoundland, perhaps because he confused this last island with Greenland. Does somebody know if he something saw ? I mean, if he had some news of the old scandinavian colonists. jose anaya anay@arrakis.es From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 5 19:53:49 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA18987 (ESMTP). Fri, 5 May 2000 19:53:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id TAA09190. Fri, 5 May 2000 19:50:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA09186 (ESMTP). Fri, 5 May 2000 19:50:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ewwolf@cap1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.10] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA18899 (SMTP). Fri, 5 May 2000 19:50:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from ewwolf@localhost) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id NAA21101; Fri, 5 May 1972 13:55:12 -0400 Date: Fri, 5 May 1972 13:55:12 -0400 Message-Id: <197205051755.NAA21101@cap1.CapAccess.org> From: ewwolf@capaccess.org (Eric W. Wolf) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Reminder Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Just a reminder that the deadline for submitting abstracts is drawing near. If you have not already done so, please send your abstract now - contact me if I can be of assistance. THE SOCIETY FOR THE HISTORY OF DISCOVERIES CALL FOR PAPERS Fortieth Annual Meeting October 12-14, 2000 Library of Congress Washington, DC THEME DOCUMENTING THE PAST - DISCOVERING THE FUTURE PAPERS One-page proposal with title and abstract by May 15, 2000 Papers due by August 15, 2000 Suggestions for Session Chairs Send to: Eric W. Wolf, Program Chairman Society for the History of Discoveries 6300 Waterway Drive Falls Church, VA 22044-1316 USA Fax: 703-256-6837 Email: ewwolf@capaccess.org From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 6 14:28:54 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA06849 (ESMTP). Sat, 6 May 2000 14:28:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA10387. Sat, 6 May 2000 14:28:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA10383 (ESMTP). Sat, 6 May 2000 14:28:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id OAA12438. Sat, 6 May 2000 14:28:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200005061228.OAA12438@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Corterreal In-Reply-To: <000a01bfb617$a9a30740$57cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> from "j. anaya" at "May 5, 2000 0:25:31 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 14:28:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O j. anaya wrote: > Gaspar Corterreal was in Greenland, in the year 1500. > It is possible that the good map of Greenland that appears > in the Cantino map was made by he ? Another possibility would be the voyage of Joao Fernandes in the same year. However, whichever it is, it is unlikely that they saw more than the southern tip of the island > I have read that when he returned to Europe, > he said that it had been in "Terra Verdre" or > "Terra Verde"(= green land) > although maybe he referred to Newfoundland, Whether it was Greenland or Newfoundland which he saw is still a matter of debate, as far as I know. > perhaps because he confused this last island with Greenland. > Does somebody know if he something saw ? > I mean, if he had some news of the old scandinavian colonists. As far as is known, the last time the Scandinavian Greenland colonists have been seen was in 1408, when two priests land on Greenland after having been blown off course and witness a marriage ceremony there. By the time of Corte-Real's and Fernandes's voyages, the colonies had disappeared - both in reality and in European memory. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 8 08:04:59 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA20184 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 08:04:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id IAA13232. Mon, 8 May 2000 08:01:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA13228 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 08:01:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f147.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.147] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA20085 (SMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 08:01:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 16165 invoked by uid 0); 8 May 2000 06:01:14 -0000 Message-ID: <20000508060114.16164.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 63.17.252.248 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 07 May 2000 23:01:14 PDT X-Originating-IP: [63.17.252.248] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: RE: [EXP] Corterreal Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 23:01:14 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Although I cannot claim to know enough about it to judge or defend, Nansen and other scholars claim to have shown (in some fashion) to their satisfaction that Clavus never visited Greenland, i.e., he was a liar. He apparently also lied about having seen a complete manuscript set of Livy. He also lied about the placenames in Greenland. Probably other lies, too. As for the Carelians (Karelians) coming from the other side of the North Pole, this has been understood to mean, not from Alaska to the west, but to the east from the northern Scandinavia peninsula, Bjarmaland, northern Russia, and the landbridge connecting said regions with Greenland. Greg McIntosh >------------------ >It is later visit possibly the visit that did to Greenland >Claudius Clavus in that he narrates that he had seen that the >" pagan carelians" are invading Greenland, entering from the north, >coming from a land located to the other side of the North Pole (Alaska ). >jose anaya anay@arrakis.es ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 8 10:44:20 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA00680 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 10:44:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA13548. Mon, 8 May 2000 10:42:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA13544 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 10:42:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA26707 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 10:42:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA00810 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 10:42:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06085 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 10:42:37 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <39167DFD.AFB1861D@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 10:42:37 +0200 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Corterreal References: <200005061228.OAA12438@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Andre Engels wrote: > As far as is known, the last time the Scandinavian Greenland colonists have > been seen was in 1408, when two priests land on Greenland after having been > blown off course and witness a marriage ceremony there. By the time of > Corte-Real's and Fernandes's voyages, the colonies had disappeared - both > in reality and in European memory. If you read the three volume work Grønlands Historiske Mindesmærker published in Denmark in the early 1800's you will find references which suggests Norse peoples living in Greenland until the 1530's. The Icelanders were no priests, but merchants blown west to Greenland on their way from Norway to Iceland. One of this merchants Thorstein Olafsson married Sigrid Bjornsdaughter in Hvalsey church, Eastern Settllement in Greenland 1408. Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 8 10:47:08 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA00872 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 10:47:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA13556. Mon, 8 May 2000 10:47:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA13552 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 10:47:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA26743 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 10:46:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA01142 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 10:46:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06931 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 10:46:57 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <39167F01.FB3647E3@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 10:46:57 +0200 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Corterreal References: <20000508060114.16164.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Gregory McIntosh wrote: > As for the Carelians (Karelians) coming from the other side of the North > Pole, this has been understood to mean, not from Alaska to the west, but to > the east from the northern Scandinavia peninsula, Bjarmaland, northern > Russia, and the landbridge connecting said regions with Greenland. Reindeers from mainland Europe has been shot at Svalbard. This suggests the Karelians could have followed the reindeers over the ice to Greenland. Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 8 13:15:15 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA11040 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 13:15:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA13749. Mon, 8 May 2000 13:13:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA13745 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 13:13:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id NAA01281. Mon, 8 May 2000 13:13:34 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200005081113.NAA01281@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Corterreal In-Reply-To: <39167F01.FB3647E3@eto.ericsson.se> from Geir Odden at "May 8, 2000 10:46:57 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 13:13:34 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Geir Odden wrote: > Gregory McIntosh wrote: > > As for the Carelians (Karelians) coming from the other side of the North > > Pole, this has been understood to mean, not from Alaska to the west, but to > > the east from the northern Scandinavia peninsula, Bjarmaland, northern > > Russia, and the landbridge connecting said regions with Greenland. > > Reindeers from mainland Europe has been shot at Svalbard. This suggests > the Karelians could have followed the reindeers over the ice to Greenland. A more logical explanation, in my opinion, is that Clavus _was_ talking about Eskimos, which were coming from the north. That he calls them Karelians would then be explained by the contemporary geographical ideas, in which Greenland was connected to northern Russia by a long landbridge. Thus, people coming to Greenland from the north would be expected to come from this landbridge, and because its other end is in the land of the Karelians, therefore either be Karelians or be related to them. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 8 13:44:57 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA12570 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 13:44:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA13799. Mon, 8 May 2000 13:44:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA13795 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 13:44:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA27618 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 13:44:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA04366 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 13:44:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04087 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 13:44:41 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3916A8A9.7399C6A2@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 13:44:41 +0200 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Corterreal References: <200005081113.NAA01281@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Andre Engels wrote: > A more logical explanation, in my opinion, is that Clavus _was_ talking > about Eskimos. Yes, the Eskimos of Southern Greenland calls themselves Kalalit and not Inuit. Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 8 22:30:38 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA11753 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 22:30:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA14504. Mon, 8 May 2000 22:26:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA14500 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 22:26:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA11652 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 22:26:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.204.19]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FU9COJ01.U2O for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 22:24:19 +0200 Message-ID: <000e01bfb92b$0ae56000$13cc3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Corterreal Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:21:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO |Although I cannot claim to know enough about it to judge or defend, Nansen |and other scholars claim to have shown (in some fashion) to their |satisfaction that Clavus never visited Greenland, i.e., he was a liar. He |apparently also lied about having seen a complete manuscript set of Livy. |He also lied about the placenames in Greenland. Probably other lies, too. |Greg McIntosh xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Possibly, in times of Claudius Clavus, he didn't have the same meaning that now to have or not been in Greenland. Possibly to say then (1400) that one had been in Greenland produced indifference. A very different feeling that when Nansen... because it, possibly yes that Clavus was in Greenland. Here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/0146a.htm a good explanation appears about Clavus and about the data that perhaps they do suspect that he has not been in Greenland (the strangers place names of Greenland that Clavus gives, very diff. of the saga's names) jose anaya anay@arrakis.es From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 8 22:47:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA12336 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 22:47:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA14544. Mon, 8 May 2000 22:44:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA14540 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 22:44:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA12284 (ESMTP). Mon, 8 May 2000 22:44:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.201.179]) by ssmtp04.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FU9DMI01.O19; Mon, 8 May 2000 21:44:42 +0100 Message-ID: <000801bfb92d$93c39ac0$b3c93bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: "j. anaya" , Subject: RE: [EXP] Corterreal Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:39:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO an error in the data of the web: this is the correct about Clavus, etc: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01416a.htm ||Although I cannot claim to know enough about it to judge or defend, Nansen ||and other scholars claim to have shown (in some fashion) to their ||satisfaction that Clavus never visited Greenland, i.e., he was a liar. He ||apparently also lied about having seen a complete manuscript set of Livy. ||He also lied about the placenames in Greenland. Probably other lies, too. ||Greg McIntosh |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx |Possibly, in times of Claudius Clavus, he didn't have the same meaning that | now to have or not been in Greenland. Possibly to say then (1400) that | one had been in Greenland produced indifference. A very different |feeling that when Nansen... because it, possibly yes that Clavus was |in Greenland. |Here: |http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01416a.htm | |a good explanation appears about Clavus and about the data that |perhaps they do suspect that he has not been in Greenland (the |strangers place names of Greenland that Clavus gives, very diff. |of the saga's names) | |jose anaya anay@arrakis.es | | From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 9 01:53:19 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA20616 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 01:53:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA14873. Tue, 9 May 2000 01:51:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA14869 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 01:51:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.200] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA20543 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 01:51:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [194.65.180.92] by fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000508235420.EMDH22814.fep01-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.180.92]> for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 00:54:20 +0100 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 00:53:18 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P.Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] Prof. Charles Ralph Boxer's decease Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO (this message was also sent to the MapHist discussion list -- sorry for any cross-posting) It is now being made public the sad news of Professor Charles Ralph Boxer's decease. The great historian of the European Expansion in the East and the Far East during the 16th-18th centuries (namely Portuguese Overseas Expansion and Dutch Overseas Expansion in these regions, including its cartography) passed away some days ago (on April 27, 2000) and the funeral took place today in London (May 8, 2000). Being ninety six years old and almost blind, he lived in Hertforshire during the last years, but he had been brought to London some weeks ago, due to the deterioration of his condition. During the year 1999 (in June) we had the honour of publishing in Portugal the book 'Homenagem ao Professor Charles Ralph Boxer - A Tribute to Professor Charles Ralph Boxer', Figueira da Foz-Montemor-o-Velho: Centro de Estudos do Mar-Associa=E7=E3o Fernao Mendes Pinto, 1999 ISBN 972-8289-13-8 [= in Portuguese and English, including bibliographical lists of his works], and in March 2000 we had the opportunity of announcing that publication through the Internet in the MapHist discussion list and the Discovery discussion list. Taken from that book, as a last tribute to the man and his work, here we transcribe some parts of the text of one of its chapters: CHARLES RALPH BOXER Charles Ralph Boxer was born in England, in the Isle of Wight, on 8 March 1904. Coming of a family with military traditions, he did his preparatory and university studies at Wellington and Sandhurst, already aiming for a career in the Army. Appointed as 2nd Lieutenant in the Lincolnshire Regiment in 1923, he stayed there for the next twenty-four years, throughout the rest of his military life (until 1947). After the first seven years, which he spent in Northern Ireland, from 1930 onwards he was placed in Japan, where he fulfilled diplomatic and military duties as an officer and interpreter in Japanese. In 1936 he was placed in Hong Kong, in the British Military Intelligence Service of the Far East. During World War II, in December 1941, after having been wounded in action, he was made a prisoner of war by the Japanese. Whilst in a Japanese concentration camp he managed to find the time to dedicate himself to deepening his knowledge of the Portuguese language and of the Portuguese History themes concerned with the Far East (in naturally difficult years, but in which, as his biographer J. S. Cummins points out, his reputation amongst the Japanese guards was such that they distributed in the concentration camp a photograph of him with a caption which read "This man is dangerous"). After being released at the end of hostilities, he returned once again to Japan in 1946, as part of the British delegation for the resolution of postwar problems. All through these years in the Far East, before and after the War, together with university scholars or Jesuits from Japan and China, as a self-taught man he carried out historical research and promoted the publication of his first books and articles. These works won him the recognition and admiration of the international scientific community. He specialized mainly in Portuguese overseas history (and also in Dutch history, although on a smaller scale), both in relation to Japan and other Asian countries. As soon as he was taken prisoner, in 1941, his personal library on History of the Far East was considered so significant that it was seized and confiscated by the Japanese who destined it for the Imperial Library in Tokyo (that library was recovered only much later, after the end of the War). In 1947 Boxer went back to civilian life, leaving the Army in order to become responsible for the 'Cam=F5es Chair' (of Portuguese Language and Culture) at King's College, London University (and in 1951-1953 he would also become the first professor in History of the Far East at the School of Oriental and African Studies of that same University). He remained in England fulfilling such teaching duties with great brilliance and prestige up until his retirement, which took place in 1967. Although mainly specialized in matters concerned with the History of Portuguese Expansion Overseas, he never stopped being considered also as the most qualified English researcher specialized in the equivalent matters related with the Dutch Expansion - and that is why the chair of Dutch History and Institutions was offered to him, in 1958, by the University College London (which, nevertheless, he refused, in order to be able to continue to dedicate himself to Portuguese matters). After his early retirement from teaching in England, which he chose to undergo in 1967, he turned his efforts mainly towards the collaborations that were asked of him by several North-American universities. In 1967-1968 he was at the University of Indiana, in Bloomington, and in 1969 he went to Yale University, where he became Professor of History of the Expansion of Europe Overseas. He stayed there until 1972 (the year of his jubilation), and there he also had important administrative and academic duties. In the following years, already less busy with institutional engagements, he continued to lecture at many universities in a large number of countries, namely Portugal, Brazil, Holland, Australia, India, Malaysia, Spain, Spanish-America, United Arab Emirats, etc.. The background from which Major, and then Professor, Charles Ralph Boxer comes is rich and manifold, and has provided him with the dimensions that built his personality of a man of action and culture. Until today, throughout his long and well-lived life, in the most varied milieus (which he created, or in which he moved) his joy for living and the elegance of his attitudes always came through as a proverbial example for all those who knew him - always brightening up History with Life, and always brightening up Life with History (and always ready to tell some amusing story or some burlesque episode of the Portuguese 16th century=8A or even ready to write to his friends in 17th century Portuguese=8A). Indeed, for Professor Boxer it was always in a permanent awareness of life and the realities of the Present (combined and enriched by the meticulous and competent research of the History of the Past) that his humanist spirit was formed and spread. A spirit in which joviality, irreverence, and warmness, went hand in hand with integrity, objectivity and scientific rigour. He undertook a permanent search, in a devoted, good-humoured and competent manner, of the essence of man and of human values, in the History of past centuries. And he favoured the History of the Portuguese, mainly in the East and the Far East, as the main field for that search. Because of his permanent concern with the people themselves (and not with any sort of abstractions or historiographic and sociological fashions), Professor Boxer devoted himself from the beginning, in a pioneering and precursory way (since his initial work, in the 30s, 40s and 50s), to the preparation of splendid and systematic biographical analysis of many of the key figures of the Overseas Expansion in the East. Biographies viewed within their context but not losing sight of the individual. Biographies not just of the main key figures, but also of other characters, of medium or secondary importance. All of them together (and constantly made clearer by a lucid attempt to achieve a global historical view), allow the painting of an impressive fresco of the Portuguese presence in the East during those centuries. Being interested, from an early age, not only in European languages and cultures but also in Japanese themes, Boxer later came to dedicate himself deeply to the language and culture of the Land of the Rising Sun. However, at the same time he travelled and acquired knowledge also in other regions of the East, namely China, Korea, Manchuria, Siberia, Indochina, Indonesia, Philippines, etc.=8A Although having English as his native language, he nevertheless managed to be an extremely gifted speaker of foreign languages, being fluent in Portuguese, Japanese, Dutch, French, German, Spanish and Italian. Although he didn't originally belong to scholarly milieus, it is to Professor Boxer that one owes the decisive launch, in the English university circles, of studies in Portuguese and Brazilian Language and Culture. That happened when he accepted the 'Cam=F5es Chair' in 1947 at King's College (a launch which was achieved with great personal endeavour and generosity by a teacher who always left his office door open, so as not to discourage any of the youngest students from approaching him). He was the one who reorganized and definitely established the Portuguese department in London (which, until then, did not even have students doing first degree courses). As it is mentioned in the biographical note written by J. S. Cummins and published in 1984 (which we are following very closely here), Professor (and ex-Major) Charles Ralph Boxer brought '(=8A) a crisp, direct style, and an eminently commonsensical approach to fuzzy or meandering discussions (=8A)'. Being a man of action and a man of thought - originally an outsider to the ambiances of scholarly milieus - from the beginning he was unanimously recognized, by all those who had the good fortune of learning with him, as a teacher who '(=8A) was not always conventional, but he was - and is - always stimulating (=8A)'. Professor Boxer gave a priceless contribution to Portuguese History studies not just as a teacher, but also as a bibliophile and a collector. Throughout his long life and his wanderings around the world he had the opportunity to acquire more than one specialized library (including manuscripts and rare editions of old books), and these libraries were afterwards made available to the international scientific community, and became decisive in many universities for the deepening of the correspondent specialized studies. As an author, Charles Ralph Boxer produced an extremely vast work, with more than three hundred titles, among books and articles in scientific journals. Many of these works are exceptionally importan -- such as, for instance: 'The Portuguese Seaborne Empire, 1415-1825', New York, 1969; 'Fidalgos in the Far East, 1550-1770. Fact and Fancy in the History of Macao', Den Haag, 1948; 'The Great Ship from Amacon. Annals of Macao and the Old Japan Trade, 1555-1640', Lisbon, 1959; 'The Christian Century in Japan (1549-1650)', Berkeley, 1951; 'Salvador Correia de S=E1 and the Struggle for Brazil and Angola (1602-1686)', London, 1952; 'The Golden Age of Brazil (1695-1750). Growing Pains of a Colonial Society', Berkeley, 1962; 'The Dutch Seaborne Empire (1600-1800)', London, 1965; 'Mary and Misogyny. Women in Iberian Expansion Overseas (1415-1815). Some Facts, =46ancies and Personalities', London, 1975; 'Portuguese Society in the Tropics. The Municipal Coucils of Goa, Macao, Bahia and Luanda, 1510-1800', Madison-Milwaukee, 1965; 'Race Relations in the Portuguese Colonial Empire, 1415-1825', London-New York, 1963. See the lists which we now publish, based on the items included in our computer data-base 'Bibliografia Internacional dos Descobrimentos e Encontros Ultramarinos - International Bibliography of the Discoveries and Overseas Encounters', ed. Alfredo Pinheiro Marques (it is our bibliographical data-base published in Portugal and for which, at the time of its launch in 1992, we had the honour of having a preface written by Professor Boxer himself). Besides our own research carried out through the years, the main source for the preparation of our lists was now the excellent book with the printed bibliography of his publications, which Charles Ralph Boxer himself sent to the author of these lines (and coordinator of the 'Bibliografia dos Descobrimentos'), on 17 November 1989. That splendid book is: WEST, S. George (ed.), A List of the Writings of Charles Ralph Boxer Published Between 1926 and 1984, London: Tamesis, 1984. There the bibliographical research was exemplarily done by George West (and introduced by the biographical note entitled 'C.R. Boxer - A Bio-Bibliographical Note', by J. S. Cummins, which we now also use and quote). Many tributes and distinctions have been granted to Professor Boxer throughout so many years of good work. As to Doctorates honoris causa, they were conferred on him for example in 1950 at the University of Utrecht in Holland, in 1952 at the University of Lisbon in Portugal, in 1959 at the University of Bahia in Brazil, in 1966 at the University of Liverpool in England, in 1971 at the University of Hong Kong, etc. - including the one which would be later conferred on him, in 1988, at the Universidade Nova de Lisboa, in which Professor Lu=EDs de Albuquerque played an important part. A= s to decorations, he received them from several countries, including Portugal (the Orders of Santiago da Espada and of the Infante Dom Henrique), and even from the Vatican (for his studies about the Europeans in the Land of the Rising Sun during the "Christian Century of Japan"). As to scientific societies, he is a member of several Academies, in several countries (including, in his own country, the British Academy, where he took his place in 1957). He always received these distinctions in a very good-natured and detached manner - and not even when the Order of the Infante Dom Henrique was given to him by the Portuguese government did he stop having a very critical view about Prince Henry's myths such as that of the 'School of Sagres' (which, as Kenneth Maxwell would later write in 1993, Boxer 'succintly demolished'), and he kept being able to see the humour in the fact that, being himself an agnostic, his historical studies about some key figures of the Catholic missons in Japan and in the East, because of their unanimously recognized scientific quality, were used in the respective canonizations by the Catholic Church. Since 1926 and up until today, in a life full of personal and professional accomplishment, Professor Charles Ralph Boxer was able to gather round him the greatest and most indisputable scientific prestige, in national and international terms, with an effective continuity of his own work and the spreading of his influence. He helped the birth of new historiographic talents in the area of Portuguese and European Expansion Overseas - talents such as Professor J. Russel-Wood, etc. - developing what must be considered as "schools" that had their origin in Boxer. In Portugal his prestige was always indisputed (it couldn't have been any other way!) - and, because of that, right from the 50s onwards, the well-earned distinctions were gradually conferred on him - but the truth is that his historiographic work, because of its independent and unbiased character, never did please the official circles (and above all the academic ones, connected with the Portuguese government during Salazar's regime). A few amusing stories are told about that displeasure specifically shown by Salazar himself, and it is said that Boxer has always enjoyed these stories. In the Portuguese scientific community, Professor Charles Ralph Boxer had the greatest esteem and affection for his friend Professor Lu=EDs de Albuquerque (the great Historian of Nautical Science who passed away in 1992). They always shared an exemplary dialogue and a deep fellow-feeling. In 1985 Boxer was highly praised by Albuquerque during the IV Seminar on Indo-Portuguese History (which took place in Lisbon), and the same happened afterwards, in 1989, throughout the II International Conference on the History of Madeira, when the Professor from Coimbra paid tribute to the English historian as the main scholar in honour of whom that scientific meeting held in Funchal did homage to. As we have already stated above, in 1988 Professor Albuquerque had a decisive intervention in Boxer's Doctorate honoris causa at the Universidade Nova de Lisboa. In 1992, the Bibliografia Internacional dos Descobrimentos e Encontros Ultramarinos - International Bibliography of the Discoveries and Overseas Encounters (prepared in Coimbra by Alfredo Pinheiro Marques and launched during the Commemorations of the 5th Centenary of the birth of Prince Peter) had the honour of having a preface especially written for the occasion by Professor Charles Ralph Boxer (a preface which is still with it and always will be). When this preface was requested, the intention was, right from the start, not only for it to enrich the quality of the work, but clearly also to pay tribute to the great English historian. And this is how the Bibliografia dos Descobrimentos got a preface by Professor Charles Ralph Boxer. Because of the kindness shown towards us, and because of our special debt of personal esteem towards him (added to the general debt that all historians should feel in relation to his scientific work), Professor Boxer is forever entitled to our deepest gratitude. Therefore, up until the end of the 80s, Portugal paid homage to Professor Charles Ralph Boxer as it should. Nevertheless, unfortunately, from then on - after the disappearance of Professor Lu=EDs de Albuquerque (which occurred in 1991-1992) - it so happened that, throughout the following decade, the tributes which were due to Professor Charles Ralph Boxer by Portugal did not continue to be promoted in the same way, neither as often nor with the dimension that they should have. One must conclude - despite all that there is in it of lamentable, painful, and embarrassing for the Portuguese Culture and those who represent it today - that throughout the last few years, during the 90s, Professor Charles Ralph Boxer, the greatest specialist on the History of Portuguese Expansion Overseas (and above all on the Expansion in the East and the Far East), was almost completely forgotten and ignored by the official Portuguese commemorative circles. Those official circles, controlled by commemorative Commissioners who are complete strangers to this specialized scientific field, and who are placed in office by political appointment, have been carrying out so-called commemorations of India and Vasco da Gama, etc., in situations of great scandal and discredit - and, at the same time, throughout all these years (for almost a decade=8A!), they have not paid any special tribute in honour of Professor Charles Boxer with the monumental dimension and the dignity of State which were due (no new Congress dedicated especially to him=8A no "Festschrift" especially concerned with hi= s life and work=8A no special edition of a scientific journal in his honour, n= o new ceremony, high honorific distinction, or official tribute of any other kind=8A - in short, practically nothing=8A!). So, once again, the Portuguese professional Commemorators missed an opportunity to honour Portugal, and missed the opportunity to honour one of those Men who, by immortal deeds, in his lifetime has conquered death's oblivion, and has dedicated his work to honouring Portugal. Because of that, Portugal's debt towards Professor Charles Ralph Boxer is today as great as it ever was, ou even greater than ever=8A In any case, it is immense. And debts must be paid (or one must try to do something in order to pay them=8A). In time. Professor Charles Ralph Boxer, ninety-five years old, now lives in his home in a small English village near London. It is therefore of the greatest justice and of the greatest opportunity the homage which is now being paid to him by the Associa=E7=E3o Fern=E3o Mendes = Pinto when conferring upon him the title of 'Honorary Member'. The patron of this association is the traveller from Montemor-o-Velho, Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, the greatest Portuguese traveller in the Far East - the same Far East which had in Professor Charles Ralph Boxer its greatest Historian. The Associa=E7=E3o Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto honours itself - and honours= Portugal - when paying such a Tribute. The work of Charles Ralph Boxer will live on for the future generations, when the echoes of all official Commemorations are gone. Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 =46ax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras =46ax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL Visit the Bibliography of the Discoveries at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* DESIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 9 02:57:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA23101 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 02:57:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA14943. Tue, 9 May 2000 02:55:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA14939 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 02:55:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f13.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.13] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA23047 (SMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 02:55:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 94021 invoked by uid 0); 9 May 2000 00:55:03 -0000 Message-ID: <20000509005503.94020.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 129.127.222.6 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 08 May 2000 17:55:02 PDT X-Originating-IP: [129.127.222.6] From: "Stephen McKenzie" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] RE: ENGLAND c16 Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 10:25:02 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO DISCOVERY MEMBERS, I am new to the list, although I've been on MapHist for several years so I know a few of you. I have just finished a long project on fantastic elements on medieval maps, and I am looking to examine similar material in the geographic lore of the 16th century. My initial observation is that much scholarship on geography in Tudor and Elizabethan England is directed towards the Atlantic / New World - the adventurees of Hawkins, Drake, Cabot, Raleigh, et al. I am interested in studying English perceptions of Asia during the sixteenth century. Much of what was available was either taken from Classical or medieval sources translated into English (Polo, Mandeville, Mela, Solinus, Pliny), or from more recent eye-witness Portuguese and Dutch texts also newly translated into English. First hand ENGLISH eye-witness accounts of Asia are quite rare. Obviously, what is found in Mela and Solinus differed greatly from the reports being brought back by the Portuguese. I'm wondering how the two different perceptions of Asia were considered in c16 England. The large number of editions of outdated Classical geography texts intrigues me. I sent a similar e-mail to MapHist recently and did not make my English focus clear enough. As a result, I got back a number of (quite useful) suggestions on Dutch and Portuguese sources. I should make it clear here that what I am really after is secondary works on ENGLISH PERCEPTIONS of ASIA in the sixteeth century. My research list so far is centred on the following writers / travellers / antiquarians. It's a bit of a mixed bag. I am particularly interested in the first two. Did they know each other? Arthur Golding - antiquarian, translator of Solinus, Mela, Ovid, Caesar, Senecca. Thomas Twyne - antiquarian and astrologer (friend of John Dee), translator of Dionysius / Priscian, Appolonius, Virgil. The others on my list are: John Frampton - translator of Marco Polo Thomas Nicholas - translator Richard Pynson - publisher of Mandeville and translator of Haiton of Armenia Richard Guilford - pilgrim Richard Torkington - pilgrim Robert Coverete - traveller to the East, early c17 Ralph Fitch - traveller to the East, late c16 Thomas Coryate - traveller to the East, early c17, friend of Donne John Rastell - author George Abbot - geographer Roger Barlowe - translator / failed explorer Biographical or bibliographical notices on these figures appreciated. In more general terms, has c16 English knowledge of Asia been studied before at length? Regards, Stephen McKenzie, Adelaide steppingsteep@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 9 04:04:28 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA26537 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 04:04:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA15020. Tue, 9 May 2000 04:01:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA15016 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 04:01:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA26049 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 04:01:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from paulstoy (ip-64-38-140-84.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.84]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id TAA27679 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 19:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002201bfb95a$e01a04e0$548c2640@paulstoy> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: References: <20000509005503.94020.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [EXP] RE: ENGLAND c16 Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 19:04:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO You, of course, know the extensive material in Donald Lach, Asia in the Making of Europe? Paul D. Buell From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 9 04:38:11 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA27424 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 04:38:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id EAA15096. Tue, 9 May 2000 04:36:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA15092 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 04:36:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailx2.dacom.co.kr [203.252.3.68] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id EAA00833 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 04:36:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from savenije.pop3.chollian.net ([164.124.165.47]) by mailx2.dacom.co.kr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA03199 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 11:35:24 +0900 (KST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.20000509113002.00bbdee0@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 11:31:27 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] RE: ENGLAND c16 In-Reply-To: <20000509005503.94020.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO At 01:25 AM 5/10/00, Stephen McKenzie wrote: >DISCOVERY MEMBERS, >I am new to the list, although I've been on MapHist for several years so I >know a few of you. I have just finished a long project on fantastic >elements on medieval maps, and I am looking to examine similar material in >the geographic lore of the 16th century. >My research list so far is centred on the following writers / travellers / >antiquarians. It's a bit of a mixed bag. I am particularly interested in >the first two. Did they know each other? > >Arthur Golding - antiquarian, translator of Solinus, Mela, Ovid, Caesar, >Senecca. > >Thomas Twyne - antiquarian and astrologer (friend of John Dee), translator >of Dionysius / Priscian, Appolonius, Virgil. > >The others on my list are: > >John Frampton - translator of Marco Polo >Thomas Nicholas - translator >Richard Pynson - publisher of Mandeville and translator of Haiton of Armenia > >Richard Guilford - pilgrim >Richard Torkington - pilgrim >Robert Coverete - traveller to the East, early c17 >Ralph Fitch - traveller to the East, late c16 >Thomas Coryate - traveller to the East, early c17, friend of Donne >John Rastell - author >George Abbot - geographer >Roger Barlowe - translator / failed explorer Take a look at: http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/Dutch/literatuurl.htm maybe you will find something of interest over there. ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) In Korean http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl/indexk2.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 9 08:26:37 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA06614 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 08:26:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id IAA15335. Tue, 9 May 2000 08:24:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id IAA15331 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 08:23:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id IAA02936. Tue, 9 May 2000 08:23:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200005090623.IAA02936@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] RE: ENGLAND c16 In-Reply-To: <20000509005503.94020.qmail@hotmail.com> from Stephen McKenzie at "May 9, 2000 10:25: 2 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 08:23:55 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Stephen McKenzie wrote: > Biographical or bibliographical notices on these figures appreciated. In > more general terms, has c16 English knowledge of Asia been studied before at > length? Just in case you had not found it yourself yet, one important resource, although focusing on Europe as a whole rather than England, would be Donald Lach's 'Asia in the Making of Europe'. It is a very extensive work (3 volumes, of which volume 3 on its own already spans four books), and well-researched. It's been a few years since I saw the work (I moved 3 1/2 years ago, and know it from the University Library in my former residence), but I do still have bibliographic references for volumes 1 and 3: Donald F. Lach: Asia in the Making of Europe. Volume I. The Century of Discovery (2 books). The University of Chicago Press, Chicago/London, 1965 Donald F. Lach and Edwin J. van Kley: Asia in the Making of Europe. Volume III. A Century of Advance (4 books). The University of Chicago Press, Chicago/London, 1993 -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 9 11:44:09 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA18944 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 11:44:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id LAA15579. Tue, 9 May 2000 11:41:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA15575 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 11:41:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id LAA18843 (SMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 11:41:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 61333 invoked from network); 9 May 2000 09:41:23 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 9 May 2000 09:41:23 -0000 Message-ID: <3917DCCA.712A36F0@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 10:39:22 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Dithmar Blefken (Greenland voyage) References: <200005081113.NAA01281@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <3916A8A9.7399C6A2@eto.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr Can any of our North Atlantic scholars tell me anything about Dithmar Blefken, the German preacher who accompanied Hamburg merchants on a voyage to Iceland (and Greenland ?) in 1563. I have two bibliographic references for him, but neither are available in this country: Blefken, Dithmar: Islandia, sive populorum & mirabilium quae in ea insula reperiuntur accuratior descriptio (Leiden 1607). Blefken, Dithmar: Scheeps-togt na Ysland en Groenland (Leiden 1706). I would also be interested in information about the proposed voyages to Greenland by Archbishop Erik Valkendorf (1516) and Christian II (1520). Many thanks Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 9 13:02:33 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA24587 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 13:02:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA15654. Tue, 9 May 2000 13:01:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA15650 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 13:00:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id NAA03271. Tue, 9 May 2000 13:00:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200005091100.NAA03271@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Dithmar Blefken (Greenland voyage) In-Reply-To: <3917DCCA.712A36F0@easynet.co.uk> from Ray Howgego at "May 9, 2000 10:39:22 am" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:00:55 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Ray Howgego wrote: > I would also be interested in information about the proposed voyages to > Greenland by Archbishop Erik Valkendorf (1516) and Christian II (1520). On Valkendorf (his name is also spelled 'Walkendorf') I have the information that he wrote 'Breuis et summaria descriptio Nidorensis diocesis et specialiter cuisdam ipsius partis que Finmarkia dicitur, externa aquilamaris Christianitatis plaga', which has been published, along with a Norwegian translation, in Det Norske geograf. Selsk, Aarbog, Kristiania (1902). The title does not seem to imply that his proposed Greenland voyage gets any mention, though. Still, it might deserve some place in the history of exploration because the northernmost parts of Scandinavia, and the Saami people living there, were still not very well known in those days. Valkendorf's information on this area, according to my sources, reached a wider audience through the work of Jacob Ziegler, who had met Valkendorf in Rome [1]. Apart from this, the only thing I can find is a fleeting mentioning that such a proposed voyage exists, to wit: "Although the former chancellor of Denmark, Erik Walkendorff - who had become Archbishop of Nidaros [2] - thought of re-establishing contact with his distant Greenland suffragan, he lacked the men and means to do so; he then had to go to Rome to seek help against his former pupil, King Christian II, who had become a cruel despot; while there, he died." [3] On Christian II's expedition, I have some more: "On 10 December 1520, Christian II ordered his admiral Sören Norby to prepare ships for an expedition to Greenland and, among other things, to look for islands on the other side of the Arctic Sea. When he addressed these orders to his admiral the King alluded to the instructions previously given to Dietrich Pining by Christian I [4]. Norby replied that he was prepared to leave for Greenland and to set sail "in whatever direction as pleased His Royal Highness" as soon as his ships were ready to weigh anchor. Christian was particularly worried that the Spanish conquerors ("hispagnoles") were anxious to obtain a foothold in the northern regions, and took it upon himself to watch over Scandinavian interests in the North Atlantic. If possible, Norby was to establish a base to serve as a springboard for further exploration. The King wanted to know whether "Danish immigrants" had established themselves in unknown lands, amongst whom he counted not only the Emperor Aurelius, who was said to have been born at Ribe and to have reached Palmyra during the course of his military campaign, but also Ogier the Dane and Prester John who, according to Mandeville, had Danish ancestors. However, Christian II had given up his arctic projects because he had other immediate worries: Gustavus Vasa had unleashed a revolt in Sweden. With the latter's election to the throne in 1523 the Union was finally broken up. Later, Gustavus Vasa indulged in plans similar to those of Christian II, with the difference that his expedition was destined for the northeast. A French theologian and diplomat called Hubert Languet, who was in Sweden in 1555 and 1557, told the Prince Elector Augustus of Saxony in a letter that the King had asked him to equip two ships for such an expedition. Languet had told the King that "he preferred journeys in inhabited countries to those in unknown and wild regions" [5] " [6] Notes: [1]: J. Ziegler: Schondia. Quae intus continentur Syria [...]. 1532. [2]: I assume this is an old name for Trondheim [3]: L. Rey: The Evangelization of the Arctic in the Middle Ages: Gardar, the "Diocese of Ice". Arctic 37(4): 324-333, 1984. Also in: L. Rey (ed.): Unveiling the Arctic. Arctic Institute of North America, Calgary, 1984. [4]: (original author's note) From a paper by Cardinal Marcus of Senigaglia, representative of Christian II to the Roman Curia. Dated 17 June 1514, this document was published in 'Grönlands historiske Mindesmaerker', Copenhagen, 1845, 3:192-193. A plenary indulgence was granted to the "navigantibus ultra mare glaciale ad insulas concedentis". [5]: Original author's citation on Languet: H. Langueti: Epistolae secretae. I.171. Halae, 1699. [6]: U. Ehrensvärd: Cartographical Representation of the Scandinavian Arctic Regions. Arctic 37(4): 552-561, 1984. Also in: L. Rey, op. cit. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 9 15:42:07 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA04927 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 15:42:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA15840. Tue, 9 May 2000 15:39:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA15836 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 15:39:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@edda.bok.hi.is [130.208.152.1] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA03080 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 15:38:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from loki.bok.hi.is (loki.bok.hi.is [130.208.152.202]) by edda.bok.hi.is (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16956 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 13:38:58 GMT Received: by loki.bok.hi.is with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 9 May 2000 13:41:44 -0000 Message-ID: <1134ACB3DAEDD211ACFE00104B667D9F02BA9A@loki.bok.hi.is> From: Jokull Saevarsson To: "'discovery@win.tue.nl'" Subject: RE: [EXP] Dithmar Blefken (Greenland voyage) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:41:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dithmar Blefken, about whom little is known, wrote a description of a journey to Iceland, Islandia, sive Populorum & mirabilium qu=E6 in ea = Insula reperiuntur accvratior descriptio (Iceland, or an accurate description = of the people and wonders which are to be found on that island) which was = first published in Holland in 1607. It became very well known and greatly influenced foreigners' beliefs about Iceland for centuries to come. It included many lies about the country and its people which greatly = enraged the Icelander Arngrimur Jonsson the Learned. It is not certain, = however, that Blefken ever travelled to Iceland or Greenland. It is more likely = that he pieced together information gained from existing works on Iceland, = mixing this with ideas from his own fanciful imagination.=20 Arngrimur Jonsson the Learned (1568-1648) fought long and hard to = convince foreign scholars of the absurdity of their beliefs about Iceland and = her people. He felt his country's honour was unfairly under attack from = their slander and lies regarding its people and their way of life, and wrote = five books in Iceland's defence. One of them is Anatome Blefkeniana (Blefken dissected), and was published in Iceland in 1612. Nowadays, Anatome Blefkeniana, is best known for the cartoon at the end of it in which = Blefken appears in the likeness of a monkey. Jokull Saevarsson National and University Library of Iceland > -----Original Message----- > From: Ray Howgego [SMTP:howgego@easynet.co.uk] > Sent: 9. ma=ED 2000 09:39 > To: discovery@win.tue.nl > Subject: [EXP] Dithmar Blefken (Greenland voyage) >=20 > Can any of our North Atlantic scholars tell me anything about Dithmar > Blefken, the German preacher who accompanied Hamburg merchants on a > voyage to Iceland (and Greenland ?) in 1563. > I have two bibliographic references for him, but neither are = available > in this country: >=20 > Blefken, Dithmar: Islandia, sive populorum & mirabilium quae in ea > insula reperiuntur accuratior descriptio (Leiden 1607). > Blefken, Dithmar: Scheeps-togt na Ysland en Groenland (Leiden 1706). >=20 > I would also be interested in information about the proposed voyages = to > Greenland by Archbishop Erik Valkendorf (1516) and Christian II = (1520). >=20 > Many thanks >=20 > Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 9 18:24:06 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA15302 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 18:24:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id SAA16081. Tue, 9 May 2000 18:23:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA16077 (ESMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 18:23:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f170.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.170] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id SAA03762 (SMTP). Tue, 9 May 2000 18:23:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 5242 invoked by uid 0); 9 May 2000 16:22:52 -0000 Message-ID: <20000509162252.5241.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 12.13.238.137 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 May 2000 09:22:52 PDT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.137] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] RE: ENGLAND c16 Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 09:22:52 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Two random thoughts: 1) Anthony Jenkins's travels into Russia and Central Asia. 2) Stephen Burroughs voyage to Nova Zembla. There may be material regarding what the English thought these gentlemen would find, or English interpretations of what they reported, that is, English perceptions of Asia. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com > >DISCOVERY MEMBERS, >I am new to the list, although I've been on MapHist for several years so I >know a few of you. I have just finished a long project on fantastic >elements on medieval maps, and I am looking to examine similar material in >the geographic lore of the 16th century. > >My initial observation is that much scholarship on geography in Tudor and >Elizabethan England is directed towards the Atlantic / New World - the >adventurees of Hawkins, Drake, Cabot, Raleigh, et al. I am interested in >studying English perceptions of Asia during the sixteenth century. Much of >what was available was either taken from Classical or medieval sources >translated into English (Polo, Mandeville, Mela, Solinus, Pliny), or from >more recent eye-witness Portuguese and Dutch texts also newly translated >into English. First hand ENGLISH eye-witness accounts of Asia are quite >rare. > >Obviously, what is found in Mela and Solinus differed greatly from the >reports being brought back by the Portuguese. I'm wondering how the two >different perceptions of Asia were considered in c16 England. The large >number of editions of outdated Classical geography texts intrigues me. > >I sent a similar e-mail to MapHist recently and did not make my English >focus clear enough. As a result, I got back a number of (quite useful) >suggestions on Dutch and Portuguese sources. I should make it clear here >that what I am really after is secondary works on ENGLISH PERCEPTIONS of >ASIA in the sixteeth century. > >My research list so far is centred on the following writers / travellers / >antiquarians. It's a bit of a mixed bag. I am particularly interested in >the first two. Did they know each other? > >Arthur Golding - antiquarian, translator of Solinus, Mela, Ovid, Caesar, >Senecca. > >Thomas Twyne - antiquarian and astrologer (friend of John Dee), translator >of Dionysius / Priscian, Appolonius, Virgil. > >The others on my list are: > >John Frampton - translator of Marco Polo >Thomas Nicholas - translator >Richard Pynson - publisher of Mandeville and translator of Haiton of >Armenia > >Richard Guilford - pilgrim >Richard Torkington - pilgrim >Robert Coverete - traveller to the East, early c17 >Ralph Fitch - traveller to the East, late c16 >Thomas Coryate - traveller to the East, early c17, friend of Donne >John Rastell - author >George Abbot - geographer >Roger Barlowe - translator / failed explorer > >Biographical or bibliographical notices on these figures appreciated. In >more general terms, has c16 English knowledge of Asia been studied before >at >length? > >Regards, >Stephen McKenzie, Adelaide > >steppingsteep@hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 14 15:41:14 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA06874 (ESMTP). Sun, 14 May 2000 15:41:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id PAA24588. Sun, 14 May 2000 15:38:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA24584 (ESMTP). Sun, 14 May 2000 15:38:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ewwolf@cap1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.10] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id PAA23540 (SMTP). Sun, 14 May 2000 15:38:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from ewwolf@localhost) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id JAA07664; Sun, 14 May 1972 09:43:22 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 May 1972 09:43:22 -0400 Message-Id: <197205141343.JAA07664@cap1.CapAccess.org> From: ewwolf@capaccess.org (Eric W. Wolf) To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] SHD Conference Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO With the deadline for submitting abstracts fast approaching (some have requested and been given extensions), it is a good time to advise all that many details (including registration information and the preliminary program) about the 41st annual meeting of the Society for the History of Discoveries to be held October 12-14, 2000 at the Library of Congress in Washington, DC can be found at: http://sochistdisc.org From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 14 16:17:11 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA08572 (ESMTP). Sun, 14 May 2000 16:17:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA24630. Sun, 14 May 2000 16:16:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA24626 (ESMTP). Sun, 14 May 2000 16:16:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA08567 (ESMTP). Sun, 14 May 2000 16:16:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from seanet.com (ip-64-38-140-20.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.20]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA22302 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 07:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <391E0DDB.BD8145E9@seanet.com> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:22:19 -0700 From: "Paul D. Buell, Independent Scholar" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] New list References: <197205141343.JAA07664@cap1.CapAccess.org> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------63F08442519D5A83F33F6368" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------63F08442519D5A83F33F6368 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In case those on the discovery list have not heard there is a new list on which a note follows below. Paul D. Buell _____________ 01 May 2000 ECAI-Routes@acl.archaeology.usyd.edu.au mailing list Archaeological Computing Laboratory, University of Sydney, Australia Supplied note: "This moderated electronic forum was established on 30 Apr 2000 by the Old World Traditional Trade Routes (OWTRAD) Project (URL http://www.ciolek.com/owtrad.html). It provides a world-wide communications vehicle for exchange of scholarly and factual information on history, geography, anthropology and logistics of traditional short and long-distance movement, communication and transportation networks of the world. The mailing list has a special focus on research and construction of ECAI (www.ecai.org) compliant geo/chrono-referenced electronic data on the land, river and maritime trade routes of Eurasia and Africa during the period 10,000 BCE - 1815 CE." To join the forum send e-mail to: majordomo@acl.archaeology.usyd.edu.au message: subscribe ECAI-ROUTES your-e-mail-address -------------------------------------------------------- --------------63F08442519D5A83F33F6368 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="pbuell.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Paul D. Buell, Independent Scholar Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pbuell.vcf" begin:vcard n:Buell;Paul D. tel;fax:206-522-2720 tel;work:206-528-0257 x-mozilla-html:FALSE adr:;;6206 25th Ave., N.E.;Seattle;Washington;98115;USA version:2.1 email;internet:pbuell@seanet.com fn:Paul D. Buell end:vcard --------------63F08442519D5A83F33F6368-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 15 22:32:49 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA15672 (ESMTP). Mon, 15 May 2000 22:32:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id WAA27060. Mon, 15 May 2000 22:31:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA27056 (ESMTP). Mon, 15 May 2000 22:31:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from janus-ext.ericsson.no [193.215.242.105] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id WAA15644 (ESMTP). Mon, 15 May 2000 22:31:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (billingstad2.ericsson.no [131.160.240.101]) by janus.ericsson.no (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA15589 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 22:30:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from eto.ericsson.se (hilmar [131.160.247.210]) by billingstad2.eto.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18568 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 22:31:15 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <39205E93.556806EE@eto.ericsson.se> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:31:15 +0200 From: Geir Odden Organization: ETO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Did the Basques Beat Columbus ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Parts of the article "Europe's Mystery people" from the World Monitor magazine 34 September 1992 written by Evan Hadingham. -------------------------------------------- The Basques say their fishermen and whalers regularly visited the New World at least a century before Columbus. This claim first appeared in a French book published in the 1640's. The first and still best-known evidence for an early Basque presence in the New World came in 1977, when Canadian archeologists unearthed whaling stations and dived to explore three sunken galleons at Red Bay, Labrador. The finds dared from the mid-1500',s, when Basque whaling ships regularly undertook a perilous 2000 -mile voyage from their home ports to the Grand Banks. The prize: Whale oil. According to University of Amsterdam linguist Peter Bakker, Basque control of this trade in the 1500's can only be compared with the oil monopoly of the modern OPEC nations. At Ile-aux-Basques Laval University archaeologist Laurier Turgeon located and excavated the foundations of massive stone ovens used to turn whale blubber into oil. This summer he discovered the first hard proof of contacts between Basque whalers and the Iroquis: fragments of Iroquis pottery in the same deposits as glass trade beads and Basque pottery made in south-western France. There are other hints of prolonged contact between Basques and North American tribes. Peter Bakker found a 1710 document alleging that "Eskimos" and Basques had developed a special trading language. He discovered a number of words without roots in tribal language, but with startling similarities to Basque words. He was eaven more surprised to find that the traditional Basque national emblem, a swastika-like design called a lauburu, appears in the needlework and emblazoned on the canoes of Micmac indians at least as far back as the 17th century. The extensive contacts with the tribes suggests that the Basques were involved in trading furs as well as whale oil. But just when did the contact start ? Recently historian Robert Delort of Switzerland's University of Geneva discovered remarkable evidence implying that the New World fur trade may go back long before the whaling expeditions and, for that matter, Columbus. Delort has unearthed British customs records indicating that Basque traders landed a heavy volume of beaver pelts at English ports from 1380 to 1433. Since north European beaver population were already nearly extinct by that time, Delort speculates the source is more likely to have been the New World (the pelts were delivered in rolls--the way Quebec Ondians stored them). Delort emphasizes, however, that his conclusion is preliminary. Certainly the idea is not far-fetched. An Icelandic chronicle from 1412 mentions the presence of Basque whalers in Iceland, a testimony backed up by two contemporary maps depicting Basque whaling ships there. One day perhaps a new find in LAbrador will finally confirm the Basques' proud boast about beating Columbus. -------------------------------------------- Other articles I have gathered relevant to this are: Peter Bakker_Two Basque Loanwords in Micmac_International journal of American linguistics. Jose Ignacio Hualde (University of Illinois)_Icelandic Basque pidgin_ Dipuctaci 'on de Guip' uzcoa 1991. Peter Bakker_The mysterious link between Basque and Micmac art_ European review of Native American studies 5:1 1991. Also have a look at this url from the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/k/kurlansky-cod.html Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 16 01:04:38 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA27191 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 May 2000 01:04:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA27456. Tue, 16 May 2000 01:03:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA27452 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 May 2000 01:03:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA27133 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 May 2000 01:03:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.205.42]) by ssmtp02.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FUMIM501.K0J for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 01:01:17 +0200 Message-ID: <000e01bfbec1$21fc1f40$2acd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: RE: [EXP] Did the Basques Beat Columbus ? Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:58:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO the Basques maybe descend of a people that occupied great part of the Southwest side of Europe in the Neolithic, before the invasions of the people with Indo-European (Celtic, Nordic, Latin, etc.) languages. This people possibly occupied the north and the west of the Iberian peninsula, the west of France, and the south of England and Ireland. (the riversides of the gulf of Biscay), and maybe they are related with the people that built the megaliths of the west Europa in the Neolithic. their language is not Indo-European. It is characteristic their blood group : Rh (-) In Newfounland I believe that alone exists a town with derived name of an old basque name : Port aux Choix, that sounds as their old Basque name: Portutxoa (the small port) . jose anaya anay@arrakis.es |Parts of the article "Europe's Mystery people" from the World Monitor |magazine 34 September 1992 written by Evan Hadingham. |The Basques say their fishermen and whalers regularly visited the New |World at least a century before Columbus. This claim first appeared in a |French book published in the 1640's. |The first and still best-known evidence for an early Basque presence |in the New World came in 1977, when Canadian archeologists unearthed |whaling stations and dived to explore .html | |Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 16 01:51:42 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA28819 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 May 2000 01:51:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id BAA27507. Tue, 16 May 2000 01:51:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA27503 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 May 2000 01:51:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from IDENT:root@mail.minn.net [216.177.129.2] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA29737 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 May 2000 01:51:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from default (pm2-2-21.dynamic.minn.net [216.177.137.84]) by mail.minn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA08812 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:51:24 -0500 Message-ID: <005801bfbec9$1d260c80$5489b1d8@default> From: "Keith Pickering" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the Basques Beat Columbus ? Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:55:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Personally, I'm skeptical. The European Beaver never did go extinct, and remained abundant in remote areas of northern Europe and Siberia into the 19th century. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 16 07:49:39 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA13048 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 May 2000 07:49:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id HAA27847. Tue, 16 May 2000 07:49:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA27843 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 May 2000 07:49:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f59.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.59] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id HAA12995 (SMTP). Tue, 16 May 2000 07:49:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 3286 invoked by uid 0); 16 May 2000 05:48:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20000516054842.3285.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 63.28.165.123 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 15 May 2000 22:48:42 PDT X-Originating-IP: [63.28.165.123] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: RE: [EXP] Did the Basques Beat Columbus ? Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:48:42 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Some past and present place-names in Newfoundland with a Basque origin include: Annguachar (Ingornachoix) Apphorportu (Port au Port) Placentia (Plaisance, near San Sebastian) Portuichoa (Port au Choix) Renews (conjecturally from Orrougne, near Saint Jean de Luz) There were also the following in Newfoundland: Biscay Bay Biscayn Cove Biscayne Bay None of these place-names, however, are known to predate the sixteenth or seventeenth centuries. There are also a lot of place-names in Newfoundland with an origin in the Portuguese, Spanish, English, Bretons, French, etc., much like all the other regions of the world discovered, explored, settled, and conquered by Europeans. The story of the Basques beating Columbus to America has been told so many times, it has taken on the verneer of fact. "If I say a thing three times, it becomes true." Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com >In Newfounland I believe that alone exists a town with derived > name of an old basque name : Port aux Choix, that sounds as > their old Basque name: Portutxoa (the small port) . > >jose anaya anay@arrakis.es ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 16 14:29:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA09679 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 May 2000 14:29:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA28508. Tue, 16 May 2000 14:28:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA28504 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 May 2000 14:28:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from tomts1.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.139] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA01836 (ESMTP). Tue, 16 May 2000 14:28:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sympatico.ca ([207.236.110.147]) by tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with ESMTP id <20000516122804.TTUH28912.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 08:28:04 -0400 Message-ID: <39213ED4.4200E1D9@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:28:07 -0400 From: Alastair Sweeny Organization: Ottawa Researchers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Did the Basques Beat Columbus ? References: <000e01bfbec1$21fc1f40$2acd3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Here's a nice web site detailing Basque whaling in Canada < http://www.labradorstraits.nf.ca/redbay.html> Alastair Sweeny PhD President, Ottawa Researchers Suite 3 - 291 Kirchoffer Ave., Ottawa Ontario CANADA K2A 1Y1 Email: infonauts@sympatico.ca Phone: 613-725-1956 / 2927 Cell: 613-850-0865 "j. anaya" wrote: > > the Basques maybe descend of a people that occupied > great part of the Southwest side of Europe in the Neolithic, > before the invasions of the people with > Indo-European (Celtic, Nordic, Latin, etc.) languages. > This people possibly occupied the north and the west > of the Iberian peninsula, the west of France, and the > south of England and Ireland. (the riversides of the > gulf of Biscay), and maybe they are related with the people that > built the megaliths of the west Europa in the Neolithic. > their language is not Indo-European. It is characteristic their > blood group : Rh (-) > In Newfounland I believe that alone exists a town with derived > name of an old basque name : Port aux Choix, that sounds as > their old Basque name: Portutxoa (the small port) . > > jose anaya anay@arrakis.es > > |Parts of the article "Europe's Mystery people" from the World Monitor > |magazine 34 September 1992 written by Evan Hadingham. > |The Basques say their fishermen and whalers regularly visited the New > |World at least a century before Columbus. This claim first appeared in a > |French book published in the 1640's. > |The first and still best-known evidence for an early Basque presence > |in the New World came in 1977, when Canadian archeologists unearthed > |whaling stations and dived to explore .html > | > |Geir Odden From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 24 02:10:33 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA04620 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 May 2000 02:10:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA13631. Wed, 24 May 2000 02:08:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA13627 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 May 2000 02:08:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.landsraad.net [212.59.199.83] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA03431 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 May 2000 02:08:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hola ([212.59.207.136]) by ssmtp01.melange.isp (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id FV1EXI00.T4B for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 02:05:43 +0200 Message-ID: <000e01bfc513$7776fb40$88cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> From: "j. anaya" To: Subject: [EXP] Thule Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 02:03:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO 1- Plinius the old says that "the historian Timeus affirms that to six days of sailing of Britania is the island of Ictis (in this place the tin is extracted) and that the Britons navigate heading to this island, in boats made with braided sticks and garnished of leather" 2- The old Irishmen called to Iceland Tyle or Tile. 3- Pytheas says that the Thule natives showed him "the place where the sun rests" (the midnight sun? ). ...were these " natives " also British-celtic travelers or British-celtic colonist that were then in Iceland, and as they called to Iceland, Tyle, did Pitheas take the name of Thule?. José Anaya anay@arrakis.es From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 24 02:41:52 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA05492 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 May 2000 02:41:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA13681. Wed, 24 May 2000 02:41:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA13677 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 May 2000 02:41:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f132.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.132] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA05483 (SMTP). Wed, 24 May 2000 02:41:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 27396 invoked by uid 0); 24 May 2000 00:41:05 -0000 Message-ID: <20000524004105.27395.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 12.13.238.137 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:41:05 PDT X-Originating-IP: [12.13.238.137] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Thule Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 17:41:05 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO 2- The earliest record from "the old Irishmen" is Ducuil in the 9th century A.D. --- a thousand years after Pliny and Pytheas, et al. No reason to assume the Irish and the Greeks were referring to exactly the same island over this great period of time. 3- The earliest record of British-Celtic travelers to Iceland is also in the 9th century --- Norse-Icelandic records of Westermann papes, i.e., Irish monks. Again a thousand years after the Greeks may or may not have traveled to Iceland. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com > >1- Plinius the old says that "the historian Timeus > affirms that to six days of sailing of Britania >is the island of Ictis (in this place the tin is extracted) > and that the Britons navigate heading to this island, > in boats made with braided sticks and garnished of leather" >2- The old Irishmen called to Iceland Tyle or Tile. >3- Pytheas says that the Thule natives showed him > "the place where the sun rests" (the midnight sun? ). >...were these " natives " also British-celtic travelers or > British-celtic colonist that were then in Iceland, and as > they called to Iceland, Tyle, did Pitheas take the >name of Thule?. >José Anaya anay@arrakis.es > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 24 03:59:13 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA08301 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 May 2000 03:59:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id DAA13758. Wed, 24 May 2000 03:59:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA13754 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 May 2000 03:58:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id DAA03624 (ESMTP). Wed, 24 May 2000 03:58:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from paulstoy (ip-64-38-140-11.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.11]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA01683 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <004101bfc523$fddab7c0$0b8c2640@paulstoy> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: References: <000e01bfc513$7776fb40$88cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Subject: Re: [EXP] Thule Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:01:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003E_01BFC4E9.50CC17C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BFC4E9.50CC17C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The hint that the geography is confused comes from the reference to the = tin. Obviously this is a mixture of Cornwall, Norway, the Shetlands and = possibly Iceland. Paul D. Buell ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BFC4E9.50CC17C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The hint that the geography is confused comes from = the=20 reference to the tin. Obviously this is a mixture of Cornwall, Norway, = the=20 Shetlands and possibly Iceland. Paul D. Buell
------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BFC4E9.50CC17C0-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu May 25 13:45:13 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA27779 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 May 2000 13:45:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA17441. Thu, 25 May 2000 13:41:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA17437 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 May 2000 13:41:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA26933 (SMTP). Thu, 25 May 2000 13:41:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 24505 invoked from network); 25 May 2000 11:41:28 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 25 May 2000 11:41:28 -0000 Message-ID: <392D10D8.45B64466@easynet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:39:04 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma References: <000e01bfc513$7776fb40$88cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Is there any chance that one of our Portuguese scholars could provide me with a few notes on the presence of the Portuguese in Pegu (Burma, Myanmar) in the early 16th century ? I am particularly interested in the embassy of Ruy Nunes da Cunha (1511, or 1512), the voyage of Antonio Correia (1519), and a voyage into the delta of the River Irrawady in 1521. I have very little information at present beyond a few bibliographic references, so anything would be very much appreciated. I would also be interested to receive any information on the Portuguese presence in the Nicobar Islands, and on any European landings or settlement in the Andaman Islands prior to Archibald Blair's survey of 1788. Hope this is not too obscure. Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu May 25 14:47:05 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA02124 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 May 2000 14:47:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA17638. Thu, 25 May 2000 14:46:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA17634 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 May 2000 14:46:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA27275 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 May 2000 14:46:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d047.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.111]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA04483 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 13:46:37 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <002601bfc647$8b6fc980$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "Luís Jorge Matos" To: References: <000e01bfc513$7776fb40$88cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> <392D10D8.45B64466@easynet.co.uk> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:48:19 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO If you can read portuguese you have a lot of works from Luiz Filipe Thomaz, but you can find from Sanjay Subrahmanyam, The Portuguese Empire in Asia 1500-1700, London, 1993. Luis Jorge Matos ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Howgego To: Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 12:39 PM Subject: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma > Is there any chance that one of our Portuguese scholars could provide me > with a few notes on the presence of the Portuguese in Pegu (Burma, > Myanmar) in the early 16th century ? > > I am particularly interested in the embassy of Ruy Nunes da Cunha (1511, > or 1512), the voyage of Antonio Correia (1519), and a voyage into the > delta of the River Irrawady in 1521. > > I have very little information at present beyond a few bibliographic > references, so anything would be very much appreciated. > > I would also be interested to receive any information on the Portuguese > presence in the Nicobar Islands, and on any European landings or > settlement in the Andaman Islands prior to Archibald Blair's survey of > 1788. > > Hope this is not too obscure. > > Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu May 25 16:51:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA10124 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 May 2000 16:51:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA17916. Thu, 25 May 2000 16:51:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA17912 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 May 2000 16:51:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA10097 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 May 2000 16:50:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from paulstoy (ip-64-38-140-48.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.48]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA01675 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 07:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002b01bfc659$04de9bf0$308c2640@paulstoy> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: References: <000e01bfc513$7776fb40$88cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> <392D10D8.45B64466@easynet.co.uk> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 07:53:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFC61E.57A54270" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFC61E.57A54270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Burma: Mendes Pinto is the place to start. Also look at the = appropriate sections of Lach, Asia in the Making of Europe. I assume you = already know about Daya da Silva's excellent bibliography, Portuguese in = Asia. Paul D. Buell ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFC61E.57A54270 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Burma: Mendes Pinto is the place to start. Also = look at the=20 appropriate sections of Lach, Asia in the Making of Europe. I assume you = already=20 know about Daya da Silva's excellent bibliography, Portuguese in Asia. = Paul D.=20 Buell
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFC61E.57A54270-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu May 25 23:59:32 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA01230 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 May 2000 23:59:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA18552. Thu, 25 May 2000 23:59:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA18548 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 May 2000 23:58:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA29430 (ESMTP). Thu, 25 May 2000 23:58:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d055.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.119]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA13000 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 22:58:45 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <00e101bfc694$b6bf19e0$f3bdfea9@principal> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lu=EDs_Jorge_Matos?= To: References: <000e01bfc513$7776fb40$88cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> <392D10D8.45B64466@easynet.co.uk> <002b01bfc659$04de9bf0$308c2640@paulstoy> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:41:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007B_01BFC69A.6B127C20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BFC69A.6B127C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mendes Pinto is not a source. Jorge Matos ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul D. Buell To: discovery@win.tue.nl Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma On Burma: Mendes Pinto is the place to start. Also look at the appropriate sections of Lach, Asia in the Making of Europe. I assume you already know about Daya da Silva's excellent bibliography, Portuguese in Asia. Paul D. Buell ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BFC69A.6B127C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mendes Pinto is not a source.
 
Jorge Matos
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Paul D. = Buell=20
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 = 3:53=20 PM
Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: = Portuguese in=20 Burma

On Burma: Mendes Pinto is the place to start. Also = look at=20 the appropriate sections of Lach, Asia in the Making of Europe. I = assume you=20 already know about Daya da Silva's excellent bibliography, Portuguese = in Asia.=20 Paul D. Buell
------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BFC69A.6B127C20-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 26 00:49:20 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA03901 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 00:49:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA18805. Fri, 26 May 2000 00:49:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA18800 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 00:49:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA29741 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 00:49:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dante22.u.washington.edu (megellan@dante22.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.72]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW00.05/8.9.3+UW00.01) with ESMTP id PAA12198 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 15:49:02 -0700 Received: from localhost (megellan@localhost) by dante22.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW00.05/8.9.3+UW99.09) with ESMTP id PAA79518 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 15:49:01 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:49:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Buell" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma In-Reply-To: <00e101bfc694$b6bf19e0$f3bdfea9@principal> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Jorge, Why is Mendes Pinto not a source? John Buell On Thu, 25 May 2000, [iso-8859-1] Lu=EDs Jorge Matos wrote: > Mendes Pinto is not a source. >=20 > Jorge Matos > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul D. Buell > To: discovery@win.tue.nl > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 3:53 PM > Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma >=20 >=20 > On Burma: Mendes Pinto is the place to start. Also look at the appropri= ate > sections of Lach, Asia in the Making of Europe. I assume you already know > about Daya da Silva's excellent bibliography, Portuguese in Asia. Paul D. > Buell >=20 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 26 00:50:22 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA03949 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 00:50:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id AAA18813. Fri, 26 May 2000 00:50:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA18809 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 00:50:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id AAA03943 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 00:50:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from paulstoy (ip-64-38-140-73.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.73]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA08116 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 15:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001201bfc69b$f7f089b0$498c2640@paulstoy> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: References: <000e01bfc513$7776fb40$88cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> <392D10D8.45B64466@easynet.co.uk> <002b01bfc659$04de9bf0$308c2640@paulstoy> <00e101bfc694$b6bf19e0$f3bdfea9@principal> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:52:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFC661.4AD42E10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFC661.4AD42E10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jorge: Mendes Pinto is most certainly a source, you just have to use it = carefully with other materials in mind. The information that Mendes = Pinto provides on Burma is based upon real events and real people. He = most certainly did not make it all up and he was an eye witness to many = of the events he describes, even when he embellishes the truth. Paul D. = buell ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFC661.4AD42E10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jorge: Mendes Pinto is most certainly a source, you = just have=20 to use it carefully with other materials in mind. The information that = Mendes=20 Pinto provides on Burma is based upon real events and real people. He = most=20 certainly did not make it all up and he was an eye witness to many of = the events=20 he describes, even when he embellishes the truth. Paul D.=20 buell
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BFC661.4AD42E10-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 26 10:24:51 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA04476 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 10:24:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id KAA20327. Fri, 26 May 2000 10:23:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA20323 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 10:23:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id KAA01171 (SMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 10:22:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 36338 invoked from network); 26 May 2000 08:22:58 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 26 May 2000 08:22:58 -0000 Message-ID: <392E33B9.7146962A@easynet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:20:09 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma References: <000e01bfc513$7776fb40$88cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> <392D10D8.45B64466@easynet.co.uk> <002b01bfc659$04de9bf0$308c2640@paulstoy> <00e101bfc694$b6bf19e0$f3bdfea9@principal> <001201bfc69b$f7f089b0$498c2640@paulstoy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Thanks to those who replied to my initial query, but I was really hoping for some original information, possibly from someone who has researched the field from primary documents, or who has access to the few published articles in Portuguese. Yes, I have most of the standard texts, including Subrahmanyam, Professor Hall's monumental "History of South East Asia", Russell-Wood's "Portuguese Empire", Prestage's "Portuguese Pioneers", Clifford's "Further Asia", Cortesao's "Mendes Pinto", Earle & Villiers' "Albuquerque", &c, &c., and I am also aware of virtually every source on the history of exploration since the invention of the printing press ! However, none of them contain much more than passing references to the period of interest. I would most certainly regard Mendes Pinto as a "source" - but obviously one to be treated with care. A good annotated edition is essential - I know of at least 17 such editions published in the past 80 years alone, so there are plenty to choose from ! Unfortunately, only that of Rebecca Catz remains in print. Can anybody come up with anything on the Andaman Islands before 1788 ? Apart from early sightings and landings by Sulaiman el-Tagir (ca. 850), Marco Polo, Yi-jing, Niccolo di Conti and Odoric of Pordenone, I cannot trace one single document referring to these islands prior to British colonization. Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 26 14:12:17 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA19055 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 14:12:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA20605. Fri, 26 May 2000 14:11:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA20596 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 14:11:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA02085 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 14:10:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d035.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.99]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA26330 for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 13:10:53 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <000701bfc70b$b69a5ac0$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "henrique" To: References: <000e01bfc513$7776fb40$88cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> <392D10D8.45B64466@easynet.co.uk> <002b01bfc659$04de9bf0$308c2640@paulstoy> <00e101bfc694$b6bf19e0$f3bdfea9@principal> <001201bfc69b$f7f089b0$498c2640@paulstoy> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:05:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFC70A.A4ED9FE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFC70A.A4ED9FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorge: Mendes Pinto is most certainly a source, you just have to use it carefully with other materials in mind. The information that Mendes Pinto provides on Burma is based upon real events and real people. He most certainly did not make it all up and he was an eye witness to many of the events he describes, even when he embellishes the truth. Paul D. buell Yes, you are right but we must take care. Jorge Matos ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFC70A.A4ED9FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
Jorge: Mendes Pinto is most certainly a source, = you just=20 have to use it carefully with other materials in mind. The information = that=20 Mendes Pinto provides on Burma is based upon real events and real = people. He=20 most certainly did not make it all up and he was an eye witness to = many of the=20 events he describes, even when he embellishes the truth. Paul D.=20 buell
 
Yes, you are right but we must take care.
 
Jorge Matos
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BFC70A.A4ED9FE0-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 26 14:12:17 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA19057 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 14:12:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA20608. Fri, 26 May 2000 14:11:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA20601 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 14:11:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from individual.EUnet.pt [193.126.4.67] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA02087 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 14:10:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from principal (d035.QtaConde.EUnet.pt [193.126.33.99]) by mail.EUnet.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA26335 for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 13:10:55 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <000801bfc70b$b763c540$f3bdfea9@principal> From: "henrique" To: References: <000e01bfc513$7776fb40$88cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> <392D10D8.45B64466@easynet.co.uk> <002b01bfc659$04de9bf0$308c2640@paulstoy> <00e101bfc694$b6bf19e0$f3bdfea9@principal> <001201bfc69b$f7f089b0$498c2640@paulstoy> <392E33B9.7146962A@easynet.co.uk> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:12:38 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO You must take a look to the works of Sanjay Subrahmanyam. Specialy "A Presenca Portuguesa No Golfo De Bengala: Comercio E Conflito". I suppose that the original was in english. About Andamn islands i'm not sure but that islands were in traditional routes to Malaca. Before the arriving of portuguese, the ships took the latitude of the islands and had a special place near andaman and nicobar to go south to Malaca, and i suppose that was the way for portuguese ships in XVI th century. I'm going to check that for you. Jorge Matos ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Howgego To: Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma > Thanks to those who replied to my initial query, but I was really hoping > for some original information, possibly from someone who has researched > the field from primary documents, or who has access to the few published > articles in Portuguese. > Yes, I have most of the standard texts, including Subrahmanyam, > Professor Hall's monumental "History of South East Asia", Russell-Wood's > "Portuguese Empire", Prestage's "Portuguese Pioneers", Clifford's > "Further Asia", Cortesao's "Mendes Pinto", Earle & Villiers' > "Albuquerque", &c, &c., and I am also aware of virtually every source on > the history of exploration since the invention of the printing press ! > However, none of them contain much more than passing references to the > period of interest. > > I would most certainly regard Mendes Pinto as a "source" - but obviously > one to be treated with care. A good annotated edition is essential - I > know of at least 17 such editions published in the past 80 years alone, > so there are plenty to choose from ! Unfortunately, only that of > Rebecca Catz remains in print. > > Can anybody come up with anything on the Andaman Islands before 1788 ? > Apart from early sightings and landings by Sulaiman el-Tagir (ca. 850), > Marco Polo, Yi-jing, Niccolo di Conti and Odoric of Pordenone, I cannot > trace one single document referring to these islands prior to British > colonization. > > Ray Howgego From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 26 16:44:55 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA28539 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 16:44:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA20922. Fri, 26 May 2000 16:44:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA20918 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 16:44:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA28519 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 16:44:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from paulstoy (ip-64-38-140-91.dialup.seanet.com [64.38.140.91]) by dns2.seanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA22122 for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 07:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001701bfc721$459f01c0$5b8c2640@paulstoy> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: References: <000e01bfc513$7776fb40$88cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> <392D10D8.45B64466@easynet.co.uk> <002b01bfc659$04de9bf0$308c2640@paulstoy> <00e101bfc694$b6bf19e0$f3bdfea9@principal> <001201bfc69b$f7f089b0$498c2640@paulstoy> <392E33B9.7146962A@easynet.co.uk> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:47:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01BFC6E6.986D4960" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BFC6E6.986D4960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On the Andaman islands, I recall reading somewhere about early contacts = with the area. Was it in Lach? Sorry not to be of more help. I will = search my books when I have a moment. I don't own Lach (can't afford it) = but think it is certainly worth exploring. There might be something on = the Andamans in the early history of anthropology literature too, since = the people were regarded as so distinct by early Europeans. The problem for Burma too is that very little of the native source = material has been translated. Even the early Chinese sources, such as = the most valuable account of the Mongol invasion of Burma in the late = 13th century (Yuan Wen-lei, also in separate editions), remain = untranslated and largely unexplored.=20 On Pinto: someone should do the world a real service and put one of the = annotated editions on line.=20 Paul D. Buell ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BFC6E6.986D4960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On the Andaman islands, I recall reading somewhere = about early=20 contacts with the area. Was it in Lach? Sorry not to be of more help. I = will=20 search my books when I have a moment. I don't own Lach (can't afford it) = but=20 think it is certainly worth exploring. There might be something on the = Andamans=20 in the early history of anthropology literature too, since the people = were=20 regarded as so distinct by early Europeans.
 
The problem for Burma too is that very little of the = native=20 source material has been translated. Even the early Chinese sources, = such as the=20 most valuable account of the Mongol invasion of Burma in the late 13th = century=20 (Yuan Wen-lei, also in separate editions), remain untranslated and = largely=20 unexplored.
 
On Pinto: someone should do the world a real service = and put=20 one of the annotated editions on line.
 
Paul D. Buell
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BFC6E6.986D4960-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 26 17:16:37 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA00912 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 17:16:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA20974. Fri, 26 May 2000 17:16:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA20970 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 17:16:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mercurio.feedback.net.ar [200.16.157.8] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA00890 (ESMTP). Fri, 26 May 2000 17:16:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [200.41.158.57] (star057.feedback.net.ar [200.41.158.57]) by mercurio.feedback.net.ar (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e4QFMnq01909 for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 12:22:50 -0300 Message-Id: <200005261522.e4QFMnq01909@mercurio.feedback.net.ar> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:09:06 -0300 Subject: Re: [EXP] Antique Map Archive - CD ROM From: "Fabian Martin" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Mr. Hess: I'm interested in your CD roms, but there's a thing I don't quite understand: you say that the first edition has about 1000 items and 700 illustrations, and the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th editions have increasing numbers of items each, with a total of 9000 items and +2000 images. Nevertheless, you state this total as "over five thousand...". Please, escuse my ignorance, my english is still terrible, but, as I wrote, I'm very interested in your CDs, specially if they cover southern South America (Argentina, La Plata, Patagonia), wich is my main interest, comercially. Best wishes, -- Fabian Martin ---------- >From: Heritage Map Museum >To: discovery@win.tue.nl >Subject: [EXP] Antique Map Archive - CD ROM >Date: Fri, May 26, 2000, 10:37 AM > > > WWW.CARTO.COM > > CD ROM ARCHIVE. SPECIAL LAUNCH PRICE UNTIL MAY 31st. The Map Collector > Library Series CD ROMS. 2000. Announcing the Launch of the FIRST CD ROM to > present a Significant Archive of Maps, Atlases, Illustrations and Market > Values. This Reference Archive will compose a listing of over five thousand > 15th to 19th Century Maps and include a significant quantity of > illustrations. BROWSE a world-wide Geographical Index. MATCH mapmakers, > titles, dates and images. COMPARE market prices realized in specific time > periods. RESEARCH maps from your personal collection. REVIEW editions & > states. OBTAIN cartobibliographic annotations and references. ENJOY the > beauty of the map illustrations. EXTRACT & CONSTRUCT your own personalized > data. Launch Price $125. The Launch Price is 46% off of the Full/Final Price > of $225 until May 31st. You will receive a total of 4 CDs on the following > schedule: First Edition, available now: 1000 items and 700 images. Second > Edition, available July 30th: 2000 items and 1140 images. Third Edition, > available September 30th: 3000 items and 1500 images. Fourth Edition, > available December 20th: 5000 items and 2000+ images. The CD ROM responds to > PC and MAC Platforms. > If you purchase at this time you can receive 10% off an order of the June 17th > Antique Map Auction Catalogue or Annual Subscription. For all Orders, a Donation > of $10 will be made in your name to The History of Cartography Project, The > Univerity of Wisconsin Foundation. If you wish to Donate a CD ROM Map > Archive Set to your local Library or School, please, 1) note the full > Quantity of your order to the LEFT, and, 2) in the Special Instructions > Section of the Check Out Stand note the School, Library or Contact Person. > If desired, we will be glad to research and obtain the full information > needed in order to complete the shipping and > Donation Card in your name. Regular Price: $225 Launch Price: $125 (plus, > $5.00 shipping and insurance in the United States. International: as > International Air Parcel Post Rate) > > The CD ROM can be ordered from our WEB Site Retail Gallery Index. (Remember > to place a > "1" in the Quantity Box next to the item description, then "Add to Cart"; > then, when finished, "Check Out." > > www.carto.com > > James E. Hess > Curator & Owner > Heritage Map Museum > 49 N. Broad St. (Rear) > PO Box 412 > Lititz, Pa 17543 > 717-626-5002 > FAX 626-8858 > http://www.carto.com > > A child is not a glass that is filled but a fire that is set ablaze. > Maria Montessori > > > > > This mailing list is brought to you courtesy of: > Barry Lawrence Ruderman > Old Historic Maps & Prints > http://www.raremaps.com/ > > James E. Hess > Curator & Owner > Heritage Map Museum > 49 N. Broad St. (Rear) > PO Box 412 > Lititz, Pa 17543 > 717-626-5002 > FAX 626-8858 > http://www.carto.com > > A child is not a glass that is filled but a fire that is set ablaze. > Maria Montessori > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 29 02:31:30 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA16765 (ESMTP). Mon, 29 May 2000 02:31:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id CAA22868. Mon, 29 May 2000 02:28:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA22864 (ESMTP). Mon, 29 May 2000 02:28:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from fep02-svc.mail.telepac.pt [194.65.5.201] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id CAA08865 (ESMTP). Mon, 29 May 2000 02:28:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [194.65.202.60] by fep02-svc.mail.telepac.pt (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000529003136.HBOO10337.fep02-svc.mail.telepac.pt@[194.65.202.60]> for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 01:31:36 +0100 X-Sender: np01hd@mail.telepac.pt Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <392D10D8.45B64466@easynet.co.uk> References: <000e01bfc513$7776fb40$88cf3bd4@hola.arrakis.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 01:30:49 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Alfredo P. Marques - CEMAR" Subject: [EXP] Re: Portuguese in Burma Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Mr. Ray Howgego: Please excuse me for the delay in answering to your query (I have been absent from my place, and only today I was able to check my E-mailbox). I think I can give you the reference you are looking for. The book exists (devoted to the theme you are interested in), it is made by two reputed authors, and it is in French (maybe French is better for you, if you can read it, because probably it would be even worse if it were in Portuguese, a difficult language). The reference is as follows: BOUCHON, Genevi=E8ve; THOMAZ, Lu=EDs Filipe Reis, Voyage dans les Deltas du Gange et de l=B4Irraouaddy, 1521, Paris: Fondation Calouste Gulbenkian-Centr= e Culturel Portugais, 1988. Besides that, other bibliographic references on the Portuguese in that geographical area: CAMPOS, J.J.A., History of the Portuguese in Bengal, Calcutta, 1919. CORTES=C3O, Armando, A =B4Cidade de Bengala=B4 do S=E9culo XVI e os Portugue= ses, Lisboa: Sociedade de Geografia de Lisboa, 1945 (reed. in CORTES=C3O, Armando= , Esparsos, vol. I, Coimbra: Biblioteca geral da Universidade de Coimbra, 1979, 365-404). RODRIGUES, Victor Lu=EDs Gaspar, "Os Portugueses em Malaca e no Golfo de Bengala (s=E9culos XVI e XVII)", in ALBUQUERQUE, Lu=EDs de (ed.), Portugal= no Mundo, vol. IV, Lisboa: Alfa, 1990, 148-168. These are the only references which I know (dealing with the Gulf of Bengal as a whole, but certainly including pages on 'Pegu' - Burma) -- in my Bibliography of the Discoveries at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm. I'm afraid I will not be able to tell you more by myself, namely on the Portuguese contacts with Nicobar Islands and Andaman Islands (I have never studied these regions especially, and they are very far from my historical and cartographical interests). On the importance of Fernao Mendes Pinto, his travels and his wonderful book 'Peregrinacao' considered as an historical and antropological source (namely on the doubts and bad-will which were sowed in the past against him by Jesuits and Portuguese conservative authors, and on the importance which is nowadays increasingly been given to his accounts as being indeed very rich, informative and full of truth), I have a section in my Bibliography of the Discoveries (at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm), whose contents are more or less like this: E.II.D.3.2. FERN=C3O MENDES PINTO E A "PEREGRINA=C7=C3O" * AIRES, Cristov=E3o, Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, Subs=EDdios para a sua Biografia = e para o Estudo da sua Obra, Lisboa, 1904. AYRES, Christovam, "Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto", in Hist=F3ria e Mem=F3rias da Academia Real das Sci=EAncias de Lisboa, Nova S=E9rie 2=AA Classe. Sci=EAnci= as Moraes e Pol=EDticas, e Bellas Lettras, t. X, Lisboa, 1905-1906. BARRETO, Lu=EDs Filipe, "Introdu=E7=E3o =E0 Peregrina=E7=E3o de Fern=E3o= Mendes Pinto", in DOMINGUES, Francisco Contente; BARRETO, Lu=EDs Filipe (ed.), A Abertura d= o Mundo: Estudos de Hist=F3ria dos Descobrimentos Europeus em Homenagem a Lu= =EDs de Albuquerque, vol. I, Lisboa: Presen=E7a, 1986, 101-118. CASTILHO, Jos=E9 Feliciano, Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto. Excerptos Seguidos de uma Not=EDcia sobre sua Vida e Obra, um Ju=EDzo Cr=EDtico. Aprecia=E7=F5es de= Belezas e Defeitos e Estudos de L=EDngua, Lisboa, 1865. CASTRO, Joaquim Mendes de, "Relendo a Peregrina=E7=E3o", Brot=E9ria, Lisboa, 1978, vol. 107, 162-186. CATZ, Rebeca (ed.), The Travel of Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, Chicago-London: University of Chicago Press, 1989. CATZ, Rebeca, Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, Lisboa: ICP, 1981. CHARIGNON, A.J.H.; MENARD, M., A Propos des Voyages Aventureux de Fern=E3o Mendes PInto, Pekin: Imprimerie des Lazaristes, 1936. CIRILLO, Teresa, "Francisco de Herrera Maldonado Apologeta di Fern=E3o Mende= s Pinto", Quaderni Portoghesi, Pisa: Giardini Editori e Stampatori, 1978, n. 4 Autunno, 183-198. COELHO, Lydia Guerreiro, A Estrutura da Narrativa na Peregrina=E7=E3o, Lisbo= a, 1971 (thes. dactil. FLUL). COLLIS, Maurice, The Great Peregrination, London: Faber & Faber, 1949 (trad. port. A Viagem Maravilhosa, Porto, 1951). CORTES=C3O, Armando, "Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto N=E3o Era de Origem Judaica", Se= ara Nova, Lisboa, 1943, n. 842, 2 Out. (reed. in Esparsos, vol. I, Coimbra: BGUC, 1974, 355-364). CORTES=C3O, Jaime, "Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto e o Humanismo Cr=EDtico", in O Humanismo Universalista dos Portugueses, [O.C., vol. VI], Lisboa: Portug=E1lia, 1965. DOMINGUES, M=E1rio, Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, 4 ed., Porto: Civiliza=E7=E3o, 19= 77. D=D3RIA, Ant=F3nio =C1lvaro, "Um Aventureiro Portugu=EAs no s=E9culo XVI: Fe= rn=E3o Mendes Pinto", Revista Gil Vicente, Guimar=E3es, 1951, n. 9-10, Set-Out, 137-148. =46REITAS, Jord=E3o A. de, "Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, sua =DAltima Viagem =E0= China", in Arquivo Hist=F3rico Portugu=EAs, vol. III, (11-12), Nov. - Dez., 1905, 466-4= 50. =46REITAS, Jord=E3o de, Subs=EDdios para a Bibliografia Portuguesa e para a Biografia de Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, Coimbra, 1905. =46REYRE, Gilberto, "Em Torno da Peregrina=E7=E3o de Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto",= in Vida, Forma e C=F4r, Rio de Janeiro: Livraria Jos=E9 Ol=EDmpio, 1962, 373-39= 0. GOMES, J. Pereira, "Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto Historiador", Brot=E9ria, Lisboa, 1942, vol. XXXV, fasc. 4, 271-289. KAMMERER, Albert, "Le Problematique Voyage en Abyssinie de Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, 1537", in La Mer Rouge, l=B4Abyssinie et l=B4Arabie aux XV =E9me et X= VI =E9me Si=E8cles et la Cartographie des Portulans, Parte I, Le Caire, 1947, 21-30. KORINMANN, M., "Les Sens de la Peregrination de Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto", Litterature, 1976, n. 21, Fev., 20-34. LAGOA, Visconde de, "A Peregrina=E7=E3o de Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto (Tentativa = de Reconstitui=E7=E3o)", Anais, 1947, vol. II, t. I. LAPA, Rodrigues, "Pref=E1cio", in Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, Peregrina=E7=E3o [Excertos], ed. Rodrigues Lapa, Lisboa: Seara Nova, 1946, V-XIX. LE GENTIL, Georges, Les Portugais en Extreme Orient: Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto. Un Precurseur de l=B4Exotisme au XVI Si=E8cle, Paris: Hermam et Cie., 1947. LEITE, Duarte, "Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto", in Hist=F3ria dos Descobrimentos, Colect=E2nea de Esparsos, ed. V. Magalh=E3es Godinho, vol. II, Lisboa: Cosmo= s, 1960, 319-328. LOUREN=C7O, Eduardo, "Le Livre de l=B4=C9merveillement", in CHANDEIGNE, Mic= hel (ed.), Lisbonne Hors les Murs, 1415-1580. L`Invention du Monde par les Navigateurs Portugais, Paris: Autrement, 1990, 268-276. MARGARIDO, Alfredo, "Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto - Um H=E9roi do Quotidiano", Col=F3quio - Letras, Lisboa: FCG, 1983, n. 74, Jul.. MARGARIDO, Alfredo, "La Multiplicit=E9 des Sens dans l=B4=C9criture de Fern= =E3o Mendes Pinto et Quelques Problemes de la Literature de Voyages au XVI Si=E8cle", in Arquivos do Centro Cultural Portugu=EAs, Paris: CCP- FCG, 1977= , vol. XI, 159-199. MAUR=CDCIO, Domingos, "A Peregrina=E7=E3o de Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto e Algumas Opini=F5es Peregrinas", Brot=E9ria, Lisboa, 1962, vol. 74, 636-650. MONTEIRO, Adolfo Casais, "Pref=E1cio [da Edi=E7=E3o de 1952]", in PINTO, Fer= n=E3o Mendes, Peregrina=E7=E3o, facsim. reed., Lisboa: INCM, 1983, 751-758. MORAES, Wenceslau de, "Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto no Jap=E3o", O Com=E9rcio do Po= rto, 1920 (sep.). NYLL, A.R., "Algumas Observa=E7=F5es sobre as L=EDnguas Citadas na Peregrina= =E7=E3o de Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto", Petrus Nonius, Lisboa, 1941, vol III, fasc.3-4. PINHO, Clemente Segundo, "Introdu=E7=E3o =E0 Lexicologia: Considera=E7=F5es = a Prop=F3sito da Representatividade da Peregrina=E7=E3o de Fern=E3o Mendes Pin= to, como Objecto de An=E1lise de Vocabul=E1rio, Atrav=E9s de um Sistema de Conceitos", Revista de Portugal, S=E9rie A - L=EDngua Portuguesa, Lisboa, 19= 70, vol. XXXV, 149-160. PINHO, Clemente Segundo, "O Homem -Ser F=EDsico- a Alimenta=E7=E3o, a Vida Sexual, o Vestu=E1rio na Peregrina=E7=E3o - Aprecia=E7=E3o de Campos= Lexicais. Exame Parcial de Amostras do Universo Vocabular de Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto segundo u= m Sistema de Conceitos", Ocidente, 1973, n. 420, Abr., 271-296. R=C1K=D3CZI, Istv=E1n, A XVI. Sz=E1zadi Portug=E1l Gyarmatos=EDt=E1s Egykor= =FA Forr=E1sai - =46ern=E3o Mendes Pinto Peregrina=E7=E3o-ja., Budapest: ELTE, 1985 (thes. da= ctil.). REALI, Erilde Melillo, "Una =B4Peregrina=E7=E3o=B4 Inconclusa", Quaderni Portoghesi, Pisa, 1978, n. 4, Outono, 101-133. REALI, Erilde Melillo, "Una =B4Peregrina=E7=E3o=B4 Inconclusa", Quaderni Portoghesi, Pisa: Giardini Editori e Stampatori, 1978, n. 4 Autunno, 101-134. RIBEIRO, Aquilino Gomes, "Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto e a sua M=E1scara de Pirata"= , in Portugueses das Sete Partidas, Lisboa: Bertrand, 1969, 223-248. RIBEIRO, Aquilino, "Quem Era Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto?", in Peregrina=E7=E3o de =46ern=E3o Mendes Pinto. Aventuras Extraordin=E1rias de um Portugu=EAs no Or= iente, 8 ed., Lisboa: S=E1 da Costa, 1976, 199-212. SARAIVA, Ant=F3nio Jos=E9, Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, Lisboa: Europa-Am=E9rica, = 1958. SARAIVA, Ant=F3nio Jos=E9, "Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto ou a S=E1tira Picaresca da Ideologia Senhorial", in Hist=F3ria da Cultura em Portugal, vol. III, Lisboa= , 1962, 343-496. SCHURHAMMER, Georg, Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto und Seine =B4Peregrina=E7am=B4, Le= ipzig, 1927. TRULLEMANS, Ulla M., "Peregrina=E7=E3o de Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, Obra P=EDca= ra de la Literatura Portuguesa?", in Huellas de Picaresco em Portugal, Madrid: Insula, 1968, 77-101. Probably the best edition to use nowadays, for an English-speaking reader, is in fact: CATZ, Rebeca (ed.), The Travel of Fern=E3o Mendes Pinto, Chicago-London: University of Chicago Press, 1989. The lady Catz is a plagiarist... -- everybody knows it, since some years ago, in 1994, I had to reveal it... reveal the way how the book CATZ, Rebeca, Christopher Columbus and the Portuguese (Westport-London: Greenwood Press, 1993) plagiarized chapter after chapter of the book MARQUES, Alfredo Pinheiro, Portugal and the European Discovery of America. Christopher Columbus and the Portuguese (Lisbon: National Press-State Mint 1992)... The scandal was very well known at that time in 1994... and there were interesting pages in books and newspapers about that curious episode.... The lady is a plagiarist, but in fact she knows well these Fernao Mendes Pinto issues, she knows well the Portuguese language (she had been translating texts by Portuguese sholars, even mine..., since a long time ago...), and therefore her translation must certainly be good (she even received a decoration, given by the Portuguese government, in the aftermath of that Fernao Mendes Pinto translation... though that happenned before the scandal of the revelation of her plagiarism of my book... a very curious situation...) Nowadays it is probably the better and most available English translation of the 'Peregrinacao', and of course people should use it (though the author is a known plagiarist...). I hope that these informations can be useful. With best wishes for your research. Alfredo Pinheiro Marques ** ** * Centro de Estudos do Mar ******** *** PORTUGAL ** ******** ***** ** ************* * * * * ** ************ ************* **** ****************** * *** ** * ** ** ****************************** ** ** * **** ************************************************************** alfmarq.cemar@mail.telepac.pt CEMAR-Centro de Estudos do Mar Phone: (351) 233434450 Urb. Monfoz, Lote 15 =46ax: (351) 233434450 Buarcos PORTUGAL 3080-238 FIGUEIRA DA FOZ ************************************************************** alfmarq@ci.uc.pt Alfredo Pinheiro Marques Phone: (351) 2394109900 Faculdade de Letras =46ax: (351) 239836733 Universidade de Coimbra Phone Home: (351) 233433258 3004-530 COIMBRA - PORTUGAL Visit the Bibliography of the Discoveries at http://www.uc.pt/bd.apm http://alf.ci.uc.pt/fluc/docent/currdoc/alfmarq.htm ************************************************* DESIR ****** From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 30 13:41:31 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA10860 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 13:41:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA26208. Tue, 30 May 2000 13:39:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA26204 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 13:39:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id NAA04229. Tue, 30 May 2000 13:39:41 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200005301139.NAA04229@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Hudson primary resources To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:39:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Here an email I recently received, asking for information. Could someone here help this person further (I found some things myself, but nothing much). ----- Forwarded message from ShayneQ@aol.com ----- I'm a student in highschool, and have been assigned a project on Henry Hudson. I have been required to find Primary Sources related to Henry Hudson. So far, I have not found one single document. If you provide me with some information, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you. ----- End of forwarded message from ShayneQ@aol.com ----- -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 30 13:43:31 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA10929 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 13:43:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA26229. Tue, 30 May 2000 13:43:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA26225 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 13:43:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id NAA04241. Tue, 30 May 2000 13:43:23 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200005301143.NAA04241@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Juan de Iturbe To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:43:23 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Another one based on an email request: Does anyone here know an explorer by the name of Juan de Iturbe? He seems to have been shipwrecked on the Sea of Cortez (Gulf of California) in or or around 1615, and returned to Mexico on foot. He may have been sailing with someone going by the name of Francisco de Ortega in a later voyage in Baja California. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 30 13:51:28 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA11330 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 13:51:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id NAA26254. Tue, 30 May 2000 13:51:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id NAA26250 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 13:51:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery id NAA04266. Tue, 30 May 2000 13:51:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200005301151.NAA04266@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Charles Duncan To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:51:18 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Finally, a request out of my own interest: Does someone have information on a late 18th century explorer by the name of Charles Duncan? The reason he drew my interest, is that his name came up in two seemingly unrelated contexts: One book mentions that in 1788, he drew the entrance of Strait Juan de Fuca (probably in service of John Meares), while another says that in 1791 he was in temporary service of the Hudson's Bay Company to search for the northwest passage. The latter mention at least gives the impression that he had already made a voyage for that purpose. Is this the same person? And what exactly were the voyages he made? -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 30 14:02:58 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA12761 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 14:02:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA26290. Tue, 30 May 2000 14:02:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA26286 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 14:02:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from tomts2.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.140] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA12745 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 14:02:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sympatico.ca ([207.236.110.147]) by tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with ESMTP id <20000530120214.OAAW25209.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 08:02:14 -0400 Message-ID: <3933ADC7.9B2185E8@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:02:15 -0400 From: Alastair Sweeny Organization: Ottawa Researchers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Charles Duncan References: <200005301151.NAA04266@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO I have done wide ranging HBC and North West Company work but his name does not ring a bell. Contact Anne Morton at the Hudson's Bay Company Archives in Winnipeg and see if she can help. Alastair Sweeny PhD President, Ottawa Researchers Suite 3 - 291 Kirchoffer Ave., Ottawa Ontario CANADA K2A 1Y1 Email: infonauts@sympatico.ca Phone: 613-725-1956 / 2927 Cell: 613-850-0865 Andre Engels wrote: > > Finally, a request out of my own interest: Does someone have information > on a late 18th century explorer by the name of Charles Duncan? > > The reason he drew my interest, is that his name came up in two seemingly > unrelated contexts: One book mentions that in 1788, he drew the entrance > of Strait Juan de Fuca (probably in service of John Meares), while another > says that in 1791 he was in temporary service of the Hudson's Bay Company to > search for the northwest passage. The latter mention at least gives the > impression that he had already made a voyage for that purpose. > > Is this the same person? And what exactly were the voyages he made? > > -- > Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 > telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) > http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > > A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. > - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 30 16:26:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA22816 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 16:26:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA26538. Tue, 30 May 2000 16:26:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA26534 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 16:25:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA22798 (SMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 16:25:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 36786 invoked from network); 30 May 2000 14:25:53 -0000 Received: from howgego.easynet.co.uk (HELO easynet.co.uk) (193.131.251.131) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 30 May 2000 14:25:53 -0000 Message-ID: <3933CED8.FD7BEF20@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:23:20 +0100 From: Ray Howgego X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Duncan, Iturbe, Hudson References: <200005301139.NAA04229@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Dear Andre Some information from Ray Howgego... CHARLES DUNCAN: English naval master who attempted possibly the last of the 18th century voyages in search of a Northwest Passage. He had previously, in 1787, sailed to Nootka Sound (in Vancouver I.) in the ship "Princess Royal". His sloop was confiscated by the Spanish in Nootka Sound and possibly renamed "Princesa" (the voyage is associated with JAMES COLNETT). In 1790 he was commissioned by the Hudson's Bay Company to seek a passage along the northwest coast of the Hudson Bay. He sailed from England in 1790 in the company ship "Seahorse" with the intention of transferring to the sloop "Churchill". On arrival in the bay he found the company's employees unwilling to attempt any further voyages of this type, declaring that the "Churchill" was unseaworthy. Duncan returned to England where the disappointed governors of the company fitted him a stronger ship, the "Beaver", in which he left the Thames on 2.5.91. He met so much ice in the Hudson Strait that he did not reach Churchill until 5.9.91. He wintered in the Churchill R. until 15.7.92, sailed N into Chesterfield Inlet and, his crew having mutinied, returned to Churchill in late Aug 1792. His failure severely effected his health, but he remained in the employ of the navy and by 1818 was master-attendant of the Chatham dockyard. Barrow, John: A Chronological History of Voyages into the Arctic Regions (London 1818, reprint David & Charles 1971). Walker, Alexander: An account of a voyage to the North West Coast of America in 1785 & 1786 (ed. by Robin Fisher and J.M. Bumsted, University of Washington Press, Seattle 1982 [for Duncan's Nootka voyage]). JUAN DE ITURBE: He sailed as the accountant with the voyage of Pedro Fernandez de Quiros in 1605-06. I have no other record of him, but if you find anything, I would be delighted to know. HENRY HUDSON - primary sources: As far as I know, there are no books attributed to Henry Hudson, and therefore no primary sources. All records of his voyages seem to be by either first or second-hand communication. The only primary document known to me is Robert Juet's journal of the 1609 voyage (see below). The closest are: Hudson, Henry (atributed): Descriptio ac delineatio geographica detectionis freti, transitus ad oceanum, supra terras Americanas, in Chinam atque Japonem ducturi. Recens investigati ab M. Henrico Hudsono Anglo (Amsterdam 1612). [Anon.]: Historische Relation und Entdeckung der Newen Schiffahrt, gegen Nord Osten, uber die Amerische Inseln, in Chinam und Iapponiam führende, so von einem Engellender mit Nahmen Heinrich Hudson newlich erfunden worden (Oppenheim 1614). Purchas, Samuel: Purchas his Pilgrimes (London 1625, 4 vols; Hakluyt Society-James MacLehose, Glasgow, 1905-7, 20 vols; New York 1965, 20 vols). DeCosta, Benjamin F.: Sailing directions of Henry Hudson, prepared for his use in 1608, from the Old Danish of Ivar Bardson ...(Albany, N.Y. 1869). L'Honoré Naber, S.P. (ed.): Henry Hudson's reize onder Nederlandsche vlag van Amsterdam naar Nova Zembla ... 1609 (in Werken uitgegeven door de Linscoten-Vereeniging, XIX, 1921 [this reproduces the journal of Robert Juet]). Commelin, Isaak: Begin ende Voortgangh van de Vereenighde Nederlandtsche Geoctroyeerde Oost-Indische Compagnie ... (Amsterdam 1646). Commelin, Isaak: A collection of voyages undertaken by the Duch East India Company, for the improvement of trade and navigation ...(London 1703). Hulsius, Levinus: Zwölffte Schiffahrt oder Kurtze Beschreibung der Newen Schiffahrt gegen Nord Osten, uber die Amerische Inseln in Chinam und Japponiam, von einem Engellender Heinrich Hudson newlich erfunden … (Oppenheim 1614, 1627). Asher, G.M. (ed.): Henry Hudson the navigator: the original documents in which his career is recorded (Hakluyt Society, London 1860 [but these are not primary sources]). From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 30 14:40:37 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA14645 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 14:40:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id OAA26360. Tue, 30 May 2000 14:40:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA26356 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 14:40:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from IDENT:postfix@uno.bcn.net [209.213.0.60] by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA17170 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 14:40:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from bcn.net (max-1-psf-65.bcn.net [208.238.84.65]) by uno.bcn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB94930A8 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 08:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3933B41F.949813E2@bcn.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:29:19 -0400 From: Overlee Farm Books X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Hudson primary resources References: <200005301139.NAA04229@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Andre Engels wrote: > Here an email I recently received, asking for information. Could someone > here help this person further (I found some things myself, but nothing > much). > > ----- Forwarded message from ShayneQ@aol.com ----- > > I'm a student in highschool, and have been assigned a project on Henry > Hudson. I have been required to find Primary Sources related to Henry > Hudson. So far, I have not found one single document. If you provide me > with some information, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you. > > ----- End of forwarded message from ShayneQ@aol.com ----- > > -- > Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 > telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) > http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > > A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. > - Maria Montessori The best easily available primary source is HENRY HUDSON THE NAVIGATOR: THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS IN WHICH HIS CAREER IS RECORDED. Collected, partly translated, and annotated, with an introduction by G. M. Asher. London: Hakluyt Society, Series I, No. 27, 1860. Martin Torodash From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 30 16:41:47 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA23827 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 16:41:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id QAA26639. Tue, 30 May 2000 16:41:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA26635 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 16:41:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailx3.dacom.co.kr [203.252.3.75] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id QAA23811 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 16:41:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from savenije.pop3.chollian.net ([210.120.187.189]) by mailx3.dacom.co.kr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA05172 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 23:40:03 +0900 (KST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.20000530233028.00d202f0@pop3.demon.nl> X-Sender: henny-savenije@pop3.demon.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:41:37 +0900 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Henny Savenije Subject: Re: [EXP] Hudson primary resources In-Reply-To: <200005301139.NAA04229@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: ROr At 08:39 PM 5/30/00, you wrote: >Here an email I recently received, asking for information. Could someone >here help this person further (I found some things myself, but nothing >much). > >----- Forwarded message from ShayneQ@aol.com ----- > >I'm a student in highschool, and have been assigned a project on Henry >Hudson. I have been required to find Primary Sources related to Henry >Hudson. So far, I have not found one single document. If you provide me >with some information, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you. > >----- End of forwarded message from ShayneQ@aol.com ----- Mm, I remember finding a webpage on the web which was full of info about Hudson, but problem was I don't know where anymore ----------------------------- Henny (Lee Hae Kang) Feel free to visit http://www.henny-savenije.demon.nl and feel the thrill of Hamel discovering Korea (1653-1666) http://user.chollian.net/~savenije Western maps about Korea (1500~1800) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 30 17:00:32 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA24814 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 17:00:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA26681. Tue, 30 May 2000 17:00:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA26677 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 17:00:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery@win.tue.nl id RAA04591. Tue, 30 May 2000 17:00:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <200005301500.RAA04591@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Hudson primary resources In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20000530233028.00d202f0@pop3.demon.nl> from Henny Savenije at "May 30, 2000 11:41:37 pm" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:00:18 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Henny Savenije wrote: > Mm, I remember finding a webpage on the web which was full of info about > Hudson, but problem was I don't know where anymore You undoubtedly mean Ian Chadwick's biography of Henry Hudson, http://www.georgian.net/rally/hudson -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 telephone: +31-40-2474628 (work), +31-6-27174384 (mobile) http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A child is not a glass that is filled, but a fire that is set ablaze. - Maria Montessori From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 30 23:53:59 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA15666 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 23:53:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA27560. Tue, 30 May 2000 23:53:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA27556 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 23:53:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.deltacable.com [207.230.239.70] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA15624 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 23:53:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dccnet.com (unverified [216.13.236.15]) by yoda.dccnet.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 3.4.6) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 14:50:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3933D5C0.6ACE3A0F@dccnet.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:52:51 +0000 From: jwood Organization: Joseph Wood Construction X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP]Juan de Fuca References: <200005301151.NAA04266@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <3933ADC7.9B2185E8@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Greetings: The straight named after a person interviewed in Italy , who said that he was Greek , but that under a Spanish flag he found the straight and at that time probably the entrance to the Northwest passage and a way for northern Europe to get to the asian markets. Drake ventured north to find this passage, the Spanish followed with many voyages both official and for personal profit going back to 1578, Comments about the regular flowing and refolding of the tide ,and that a fair wind blew them into a straight , gives me thought that this location was known in England from Elizabethan times. A map showing Drake's voyage produced in 1583 by Nicola Von Sype (British Library, Maps C.2.(1)) shows the northern course of the voyage and a group of small islands below, that outline Cape Flattery the entrance to de Fuca's straight. Travelling north up the Pacific Northwest coast any sailing and most powered vessels steer well to sea avoiding the rocky Cape Flattery, from out at sea the entrance to the straight appears as another inlet or bay. By the time you have made the coast you have moved north the entrance is lost. Captain Cook is an example of how even during a voyage of discovery, common sense gives lots of sea room to this part of the coast. By contrast coasting south as was Meares, the wind and the current push you in and your only choice is what shore to follow. In 1790 the Spanish explorer Quimper entered into the straight but stopped near the San Juan Islands depicting the straight as only an inlet and not the entrance to a body of water that defines Vancouver Island I happen to live at the bottom of the straight at the American/Canadian border in a bay that has as much history as you can fit into an area. Ralph Heading From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 30 23:58:12 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA15833 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 23:58:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id XAA27588. Tue, 30 May 2000 23:58:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA27584 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 23:58:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail.deltacable.com [207.230.239.70] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id XAA15828 (ESMTP). Tue, 30 May 2000 23:58:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dccnet.com (unverified [207.230.252.154]) by yoda.dccnet.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 3.4.6) with ESMTP id for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 14:55:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3933D6DE.48DE2DC0@dccnet.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:57:38 +0000 From: jwood Organization: Joseph Wood Construction X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Charles Duncan References: <200005301151.NAA04266@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <3933ADC7.9B2185E8@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO Greetings: A Canadian historical writer Hillary Stewart found the original diary of Meares wife and reproduced it along with drawings that she had made , probably the best source material , her name was Francis Meares and as a young woman had a most exciting life. Ralph Heading From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 31 05:50:40 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA05318 (ESMTP). Wed, 31 May 2000 05:50:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id FAA28189. Wed, 31 May 2000 05:49:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svfile1 [131.155.70.217] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA28185 (ESMTP). Wed, 31 May 2000 05:49:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.9] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id FAA05242 (ESMTP). Wed, 31 May 2000 05:49:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: WJWarren@aol.com Received: from WJWarren@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.9.) id l.ac.5c3f813 (4562) for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 23:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:49:29 EDT Subject: [EXP] Juan de Iturbe To: discovery@win.tue.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 105 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO One of the best sources of information on Spanish exploration of the west coast of North America is Henry Raup Wagner. In "Cartography of the Northwest Coast of America to 1800", Volume 1, page 145, he mentions Juan de Iturbe. He notes that Iturbe made a voyage in 1615 to Lower (Baja) California in search of pearls. A Nicholas de Cardona wrote about this voyage, although Wagner does not believe he had first hand information from accompanying Iturbe on the voyage. Cardona's manuscript in the Biblioteca Nacional in Madrid asserts Iturbe went as far north as the mouth of the Colorado River, but again Wagner has doubts about that information. On return, one of the two ships used went to Mazatlan, the other was sent on to Navidad and that ship was captured by Joris van Spielbergen. Wagner felt some information about the Iturbe voyage was probably aboard, which was brought back to the Netherlands and MAY have been the source of the title page map in Herrera "Descripcon de las Indias Occidentales", by some thought to be the first depiction of California as an Island. Note lots of conjecture here and no first hand information about Iturbe, except that he went on a pearl hunting expedition. Bill Warren, President, California Map Society From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 31 17:33:21 2000 Received: from svin12 [131.155.71.135] by svfile1.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA24618 (ESMTP). Wed, 31 May 2000 17:33:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for discovery-list id RAA29396. Wed, 31 May 2000 17:31:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from svbcf01 [131.155.71.86] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA29392 (ESMTP). Wed, 31 May 2000 17:31:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hsh-52-60-107-207.hyperlinx.net [207.107.60.52] (may be forged) by svbcf01.win.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id RAA23038 (ESMTP). Wed, 31 May 2000 17:31:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from emeillon (EMEILLON.msf.org [192.168.2.38]) by msf.msf.org (post.office MTA v1.9.3b ID# 0-11128) with SMTP id AAB184 for ; Wed, 31 May 2000 06:04:47 -0400 From: emeillon@stewart-museum.org (Eileen Meillon) To: Subject: [EXP] Globe symposium, Stewart Museum Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:46:38 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFCAF5.E17C9620" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFCAF5.E17C9620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "The Stewart Museum Globe Symposium" Stewart Museum, Ile Sainte-Hélène, Montreal 19-22 October 2000 The Stewart Museum is organizing a symposium concentrating on early globes, to be held 19-22 October 2000. The symposium will give participants an opportunity to hear presentations by various globe experts as well as to study the 50 terrestrial and celestial globes and 70 globe-related works in the museum's exhibition of early globes, "Yes! The World is Round." Invited speakers will include Peter van der Krogt and Elly Dekker from The Netherlands, Catherine Hofmann and Christian Jacob from France, Jan Mokre from Vienna, and Robert Derome, an art historian from Montreal. The registration fee which will include lunches and dinners during the symposium is $285 (Canadian). The registration deadline is 8 September 2000. (If space is still available after that date, the fee will be $325.) Participation will be limited to 75 persons. English will be the principal language of the symposium. In order to receive the second circular and registration form, please contact the globe symposium secretary: Nadia Hammadi - nhammadi@stewart-museum.org Stewart Museum, PO Box 1200, Station A, Montreal (Qc), H3C 2Y9, CANADA Tel: (514) 861-6703, ext. 260 / Fax: (514) 284-0123 Please feel free to contact one of the three symposium organizers for further information: Ed Dahl -- edahl@iosphere.net Jean-François Gauvin -- jfgauvin@stewart-museum.org Eileen Meillon - emeillon@stewart-museum.org ***** ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFCAF5.E17C9620 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IiYPAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANAHBQAfAAsAKwAAAAMANAEB A5AGAEgRAAAlAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAB4AcAAB AAAAIAAAAEdsb2JlIHN5bXBvc2l1bSwgU3Rld2FydCBNdXNldW0AAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb/LFwGw TWEVMTbcEdSQ3gCqAFvdWQAAAgEdDAEAAAAhAAAAU01UUDpFTUVJTExPTkBTVEVXQVJULU1VU0VV TS5PUkcAAAAACwABDgAAAABAAAYOAFoc5hbLvwECAQoOAQAAABgAAAAAAAAAmzI6ARcz0BGNawAA 6NEpTMKAAAALAB8OAQAAAAIBCRABAAAACQ0AAAUNAACMHwAATFpGdbgi12wDAAoAcmNwZzEyNXIy DGBjMQMwAQcLYG6RDhAwMzMPFmZlD5JPAfcCpANjAgBjaArAc4RldALRcHJxMgAAkioKoW5vElAg MAHQhQHQNg+gMDUwNBQh8wHQFBA0fQdtAoMAUAPU+xH/EwtiE+EUUBOyGPQU0BsHEwKDMw5QEZ0y MzjFF1QgB20gQ0UaBA/ATxqOFEAbrxy1eXIaBDW5EY4xNhYxHv8DgkcJ0eprGgQ2IO82GmEiPwOC 1lQIcBoENyRPNydxJZ8hA4IoSGViCXB3Kf8aBBuRJ64bnym2BxABoA3gdSqVOSsfOCQxLG8DgkL9 B0B0DeACgxRQFk4beAcTvR0GNBY/HqgztSBVNB2R7xZsIegztCOINB7BN24lZvsztCbmNCDRN20o lzO0KiveNCQxPM4zPC27NCdxN21fL7cztDFGApEI5jsJbzD1Rb9lDjA1RupIAUe/SMn/RtRI8kdf Sy9K7UpvSJ9G7/kQYDI4ULpR0VGPUplG1H9SwlEvVP9UvVQ/Um9WNDk/DlBZhFrhUwNa4AKCc3RU eWwHkGgJ4HQAAHF5AyFsaQFABRABQAPwZNhjdGwKsQBgcwqwXiAjFuBeYm51bQIAYWGIdXRvAGBk anVcUPEFEGdodF2BCgFdUAoB8mkBkHAwAzE0kgwBD1L/NIAUIGIjEFQI0AnAXeBiIzxucGJ5ZBAP kgMwc278ZXgXMAewBbAAwAJzExBcY3MPkAMwX+BkYUBpOnYTgEQBEF+QMWAgUI0KwGEJwGFgaCBG AiGNXBMxINBdEmZpLQ+Qnjhg0mnTXZwqUGRyCVD3a3IWoGtydzyBKlBegAHQ/2bRXo9fn2CmadNh T2JfY2/9ZH5ibTAJgAIgcHFlY2kws2fwYKF0LWiQA2E6MDBCb3YwU3ViagWQdMF2MERhdGU6aOQk MP9pb2p/a49sn22vbr9vzFyg/30wC4AOEnBxDDBwpA5QcS/Pcj9zT3RfdWdSZWdQFwH+ICowfTAE kGjkJ3B3/3kPv3ofey98PghgXhALgGVcgL1nUGwBQH0/fk9/VDCPcOUI0GIKsHQ4f+hxBA+QfjIe wBAWkTGB5BNQF3Bv/G9mgj+DT4RXkACFcAtQvHkvaKCJ0AsRheVzaOT/LDCG34fviP+KD3w/jQ9v z/9w34Fvky+UP5VPllJ2UnX0/3cpLpBdH14vnB9gT55kj7N+OZ6vn7+gz6HfhEiq4ETcb2OoIAnw BUBNnnBmNvebE2cGqwdjAECuqGayp2CfhaECIDPhXEAFoG1wE2J2RQDAAxBTXGIB0FwTMv8AUKX/ pw+oH6kvnm+rz6zf763vhAu18LTQLbTyBgC5YPW0AHQIcGW1pA5Qti+3P/+4T7lfumSAAQvwkUS7 jCQwu7yPZIk2vl8bYDAgQgRw/nkwMGWBsLdlMbF4Z8CygfMwILLaSHmzsboBI8FmQ8VF0HYCUSB7 Vc4gE1AKdxXRfQCxcmdsMfc54AFAz+Jy0DIDMMHhz3D3whCZwQGAbnawAGAJ8GcAm7AAkmF4C2AC QG95CfD6XGWAcFygACALkBNQZ8E/mcDCkADhAjACYACAYmT3DDATUQqwYwEQBbDMgdXRom1/MmVc aAWwetJy3GRnz+ILgddQaNWDL6B5AUFndtgZ1tHEYJ3hN84wAFDYodmVOTgewNfi/dbQd9oj21R2 wNOAAHALMC/ScVxgs7AOUHYIkHdr/QuAZB7A3VIE8AdAEGEBQL8OAJmSXLDD8N61AhBvxJD7wpCV 4HTPgIxR0cLgR8SA/wDAw7DCkJJh1PDEgMPxCTL/xCCMcAJQB0ALkONRAlHdod/BUOBQ3kHCEAJg d+QTAlHPACAJwMFQ0fBya9XxseI/FyES8ndAtIDS4ROAQzrUXFx1gG9oQW1okAMQeweQ55BNDeAD YLPgAYAg7k8BIA3g1rBc6UYPk9Ng9bTyLoQgdM/AFxDCEJZw37nyZYABQN8iBJB50DPf0vfsdutT Z5RjzwETAgCABZD8bHbQIO7BDnBl8O7CAZD/ACDvUt2hsEEBwe7BFuAPcM8AAMMwDNABkCAuzlTu 1r8OUO9y1DHv3/Dv8f9sD8DfwzAFgfOv9L/1z2wewMMw7+SA83/4P/lEKfI8IND3D/v77/kkYioQ ApH9D+8DJDD/+r//fwCPAZ/vMCdwAuLvv/8ETwVf8jwsMALvCG8JfwqP/+8wLpAHbwz/Dg8PFBfh 36D/32DGMMUQwUDBL8I/w0/EX3+6b7t/x39ki2kAkDCykg3+ChPiHWYT3MDvFY8WnxevP8UvGd/H T8heRRGyoSJU/98gwAB3QJZBsGHi8SGgOTBVRVBiKDF5tIJpIaAio+uzKE0sIEnmIVMUYcF3QC1I 6WzoZXArgL5NaLFF0ORwKkRa0C3KYf5PIGApYR3AsmCPgSpTHXVXKB/oEDeAINmQZ9yAaap6f3Eg +YBzKbYgtGC+btWwLPF3MDFyaLAghgDfmcDKwB110BApYXMrgCIQNiApcd8gbJZwLb8wLu4gL5Mx 2DowbB+A16BnUfsgkUSxadxx4eAdZtyAMPD2cLSQ5WB1EWC1QDTC3yF/HcA98OhgsEEy8WiwMOBi /crAdiCgO5Di8DREM3DTgP+W0DjxINA3oIxwH4A9cTTR6x11EOB1yrF0L7F/we0h/zsRIpFBYdyB MmCMcRDgRELvNFRAQ9oANEQtRdDnIpZwenfZkGsw4BRxPyIddW1zKONQwHF17RExwDzhaHxpYmch M1GSwDN1NFaT6lnoYCEvk1fZkDVRMNEmUowQ0lAulB18SW7n3VBCsrOhYWuW0TekI2D37mA+4OdQ UOZwLmE8EBSAuZbBIEvnwbBgQFJFN9DLysBngGtKMSBmdgEvKr5O5nA/MJnA3IE0oUN3MNtOwSpi SJLAv8BuFIBAUt5D07Aw0EDhFIBK2PApYP9NhHXw3IDVsCuAUWAUgB11byzQ5fDnUE2TVt1gUFBh /yuAQFJIIC5RsGBngHYBLKH/OZEokkVQEODZkTmRTZMs1v82oB18L6JaoNegIoE7c02A91swN6BF UGNogEqLSwAykN8/MEGEf2FlcEpRZMBwMXLHPyIx2DDRJDI4dWAddd4oT2C0AGcQ3IApNqBYj98R kCJAKlMw0ZAAU5XA5uH5NikoSUXw1YMwwkDRN9G3OSY8EOrQYeLA51Bh0dD/LmE/IHcwS+B3MTSx PzFZk5M3wilxJDN/sC4pNrDeUDhmRZNmFh+wbUmjHXVNNNE3dWCztHMuHXxF/3+AH7DWcGYHPyKS kErROLHjH4AkgnVhZ+dQReFcu/9qPUlwMPFL8jTRWMDVsLHCz1yzdtBXEEBxaXKwECSA/zlylnBY zNZBK4DnEIYAtLH/MnHicCBgaOc/MTyUMdjrUdNYwBDxeToddU5ewoXg/+gAv8CxkB+Q0kEg0FoQ HkDvhnCXwDVB7pJmNVAjYBDgAyeVheBZUEVSTEncTksn8L/CIhA6+MF3o15AEOAoc7+wKOMuMQEi /3iCspLukmUxZIB40n/h2dIBhOAA0Mnqefm6AM4RjIIAqgBLUKkLAgCAIBeAIRwBgCFuAGgAYQBt A4EhgRBkAGkAQACAcwB0AGUAd4EB6nKCAS2BIXWB4YIwgxBRgTAuAG+CgWeAIeDdfy1GgCGBUoGw bIIBg9D+OoDPgd+C74P0z7B4kjVQ/7PQDBAnksuRzHZ7b3x4ifPTHTkqrlBPyoF4NXAukTcrgLUw WTRBLLgS8FFjIikrgEgzQy6AWTnBT0FBTkFEQS8nPbAZpQAoNdDQZuA4NjF0LTbaADMrgKNBNqAy EjbNkCAvNrBGYXjnpQCTdV3QNC3aEMugHXz+UHOEWZEfgE2QWaE00XPm/1cQbXc/IJhCMdgxBUpC 1dE/TYDAcE6yHdcnoyRzMzD/2vElGSYknXJDQdYyO3N2phZFVJClIGgfgCAtLf94j3mXnS+ePXo/ e0CvAKCRTkA7kCDgTsFlLq+AdLt9H34pM6rgfw+AFhOAIf+H0IcwhrCGkIXwh3CHUIPQ/YeQcIaB h9CIMIfQg7CGcOeH0IewhD8LNIVvqr+rz/+s0on/iweir549pd/rII1ll7M/nj0ddUrsQG4tUhL0 528w0Uch8N1QFICg38+h77cvpA96qmpmMSC6Qh+ML3z/fg+o/4ApagBm94QBhrCIsHaHQYZwh3+I j/+D/4UPhhTFD8Yfxy+Jr7Jf/7yfnmq/n4y/vF+332rF6EH/eBBTMHBwN9CQcXgPu1/T//+9f76P 5vDW5NJPwS/CP8NP/4ApzACG0MwAhdKF8MgAy4//zJ/ID8kfrrjiP+NP5F/N///PD9nPtJncv9Lv 7N/VDx2b/SekKvRSHe8UfyBPIV8ib/8YvyR/Gt8b7xz99RT13/bvv/f/+Q8jlYrDI4D+en2AIQIA BbAAAAALAAGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAAAAMAA4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG AAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAGgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAACdqAQAeACaACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA5LjAAAwAngAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAAYUAAAAA AAALADCACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAMYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA ABGFAAAAAAAAAwAzgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAAeAEKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAA AAAARgAAAAA2hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBDgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAN4UAAAEAAAAB AAAAAAAAAB4ARIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAALANWACCAGAAAA AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAGhQAAAAAAAAsA1oAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAIKFAAABAAAAAgH4 DwEAAAAQAAAAmzI6ARcz0BGNawAA6NEpTAIB+g8BAAAAEAAAAJsyOgEXM9ARjWsAAOjRKUwCAfsP AQAAAFEAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAAUFNUUFJYLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAATklUQfm/uAEA qgA32W4AAABDOlxFeGNoYW5nZVxtYWlsYm94LnBzdAAAAAADAP4PBQAAAAMADTT9NwAAAgF/AAEA AAA7AAAAPE5BQkJJTkdMSkxEQ05DTkFET0hQT0VKTUNHQUEuZW1laWxsb25Ac3Rld2FydC1tdXNl dW0ub3JnPgAAAwAGEGmRTVIDAAcQaQUAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAAAiVEhF U1RFV0FSVE1VU0VVTUdMT0JFU1lNUE9TSVVNIlNURVdBUlRNVVNFVU0sSUxFU0FJTlRFLUjpTOhO RSxNT05UUkVBTDE5LTIyT0NUT0JFUjIwMDBUSEVTVEVXQVJUTVVTAAAAAM9i ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFCAF5.E17C9620--