From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 5 14:57:53 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04 (8.8.7) for id OAA07718 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:57:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id OAA28604. Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:52:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id OAA28600 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:52:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id OAA26509. Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:52:23 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199801051352.OAA26509@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Re: Reis van Mahu en De Cordes 1598 - 1600 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:52:22 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <34A6CB35.1434@helsingborg.se> from "Bertil Haggman" at Dec 28, 97 01:57:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Bertil Haggman wrote: > > Bertil Haggman wrote: > > > > As this is my first contribution to the > > list I would like to introduce myself. > > Am a Swedish author (member, Swedish Authors > > Association) and independent researcher > > in history. My main interests are the > > search for the North West and North East > > passages but am interested in historic > > discovery and exploration in general. > > > > Presently I am writing an article > > on a Dutch stamp issue of 1996 > > (Voyages of discovery). The > > 100 cents stamp has the text "Reis > > van Mahu en De Cordes 1598 - 1600". > > Have not been able to find any > > information on this. And the Dutch > > ptt did not print any information > > on that stamp in its "Collect" No.1, > > November 1996 but did on the three > > other stamps of the issue. Any help would be > > much appreciated. If anything > > on that journey can be found on > > the Internet I would > > be grateful for tips. As the > > text Americae Pars appears on the > > stamp in large letters I assume it > > was a journey to the Americas. > > > > Season's Greetings > > > > Bertil Haggman > > bertil.haggman@helsingborg.se > > I found a report of this voyage in the following book: Dr. M.G. de Boer: Van Oude Voyagien. Amsterdam: Joost van den Vondel, no year. The book appears to be a 1950s reprint of a work somewhere from the 1930s or so. The text is too long to copy here as a whole (one chapter of about 30 pages), so I will just give an overview of the voyage. Around 1598 several expeditions were set out from the Netherlands to the east, by various routes. Pieter van den Hagen and Johan van der Veken sent out an expedition, consisting of 5 ships and 494 that was to reach the east by way of the Straits of Magelhaes. The ships with their captains were: the 'Hoop' (hope), captain Jacques Mahu, leader of the expedition the 'Liefde' (love), captain Simon de Cordes, second-in-command the 'Geloof' (belief), captain Gerrit van Beuningen the 'Trouwe' (faith), captain Van Boekhout the 'Blijde Boodschap' (happy message, dutch translation of gospel), captain Sebald de Weert. Even before they had reached the Brasilian coast, fevers had broken out on board. One of the victims was admiral Mahu. Cordes now took over command, van Beuningen becoming vice-admiral. Because of an outbreak of scurvy, the expedition landed on the coast of Guinea to receive fresh supplies. Finally in January 1599 they decided to cross the Atlantic. At the Straits of Magelhaes, the winds were adverse, and remained that way for four months. Although there was enough food, the fierce climat still took another 120 lifes, while the Patagonians were hostile too. Finally, in September 1599, the Pacific was reached. The troubles were not over though, and the ships were trapped in a storm. The ships were separated, only the 'Geloof' and the 'Trouwe' remained together, but they were swept back into the Straits, and lost sight as well. The crew was starting to get sick of it all. They wanted to return home and the threat of mutiny was felt. Then the last two ships lost sight of one another too. The crew of the 'Liefde' met Olivier van Noort, another dutchman who tried to reach the east through the Straits of Magelhaes (and indeed succeeded, completing the first dutch (fourth overall) circumnavigation). Sebald de Weert (who after Mahu's dead had been moved to the 'Liefde') now tried to join forces with Olivier van Noort, and reach the Indies that way. However, his men were too weak, and could therefore not keep up with the ships of van Noort's fleet. Once again they were blown back into the Straits, and after another visit by Van Noort, who too was blown back, De Weert decided to hunt for pinguins at the Pinguin Islands, at the eastern end of the Straits When adverse winds and streams again blew them east, De Weert decided to sail back home. They discovered the Sebald de Weert islands, but were unable to land there to replenish their food supplies. Only 36 out of 105 crewmembers were left when they returned to the Netherlands. The 'Trouwe' did manage to beat through the Straits, and landed on Chiloe, an island on the Chilean coast. On request of the local population the dutchmen took a Spanish fortress. The Spanish were locked into the church, and the dutch plundered the fortress. However, when the Chileans came and started to kill the Spanish, captain Balthasar de Cordes (Van Boekhout had died in Patagonia) protected the Spanish, the Spanish got back their arms, and the dutch vacated the fortress. The Spanish took their revenge on the Chileans. The dutch went for the fortress a second time, and again succeeded in capturing it. The Spanish soldiers fled, the governor and other inhabitants surrendered in exchange for their lives, but most were treacherously killed by the Dutch. The Dutch plundered the place and caused destruction. However, when additional Spanish forces arrived, the Dutch were beaten, and many were killed. The Dutch captured a Spanish ship near Truxillo, and somehow managed to cross the Ocean to Ternate. On Tidore almost all men were killed by the Portuguese, those that managed to escape were captured and taken to Goa. The 'Blijde Boodschap', better known als 'Vliegend Hart' (Flying heart) was so short on supplies that they entered the Spanish harbour of Valparaiso, where they were captured by the Spanish. It took a long time for some of them to return home, the last was captain Dirck Gerritsz, who had visited China and Japan in Portuguese service in the 1580s. He was freed in a prison exchange in 1604. Both the 'Hoop' and the 'Liefde' met hostile indians, who probably thought they were Spaniards, and lost their captains and a large number of men. After the ships met again, the new captains, Jacob Jansz. Quackernaeck and Huydekooper decided to try to reach Japan. The 'Hoop' was lost in a storm. When Quackernaeck's 'Liefde' reached Kyushu - only six of the remaining 24 men were able to walk. William Adams, an Englishman, was among the crewmembers that reached Japan. He was sent to shogun Iyeyasu, who soon became very fond of him. He managed to get freedom for his fellow crewmembers - a Portuguese interpreter had spread the rumour that they were pirates. Adams remained in Japan for the rest of his life, becoming important and wealthy as a shipbuilder, math teacher and tradesman. Quackernaeck himself reached the dutch trade settlement in Patani in 1605, carrying an invitation of the shogun for the dutch to trade in his country. The next year he was killed in a fight against the Portuguese. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html For every genius once thought a fool, there are a thousand fools still so regarded. -- Sean Ellis From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 5 15:08:48 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04 (8.8.7) for id PAA07914 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:08:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA28652. Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:08:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA28648 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:08:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery id PAA26613. Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:08:25 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199801051408.PAA26613@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Mahu & Cordes (Peter van de Krogt To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:08:24 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Peter van de Krogt attempted to post the following message to the list at 30 December. Unfortunately he either posted from a different address as the one he is subscribed at, or his subscription was done only after he mailed this message, so the message was not accepted because it came from a non-subscriber. Andre Engels, moderator of discovery@win.tue.nl > Your message to the discovery list was forwarded to me, since I was for > some time not subscribed to the Discovery list (but, I subscribed again). > > From: G=FCnter Schilder, MONUMENTA CARTOGRAPHICA NEERLANDICA III: Two > wall-maps of the world by Blaeu: 1619 and 1645/46. Uitgeverij Canaletto, > Alphen aan den Rijn 1990. > > "After the various English voyages, the Dutch appeared in the Strait of > Magellan in 1599. One of the Dutch pioneering voya-ges to the south-west > was the one by Jaques Mahu and Simon de Cordes, who were sent out by > Rotterdam merchants. Despite the fact that this voyage was an absolute > economic and finan-cial failure, the expedition was of great consequence > for Dutch navigation and trade. The five ships of this fleet were the first > Dutch vessels to sail through the Strait of Magel-lan. One of them, the > De_Liefde, completed the crossing of the Pacific, reached Japan and laid > the foundations for Dutch trade there. Another important result was the > much improved mapping and description of the Strait of Magellan, carried > out on board the ship Het_Geloof." > > Schilder refers to: > F.C. Wieder, De reis van Mahu en De Cordes door de straat van Magalhaes > naar Zuid-Amerika en Japan, 1598-1600. 3 vols. 's-Gravenhage: Martinus > Nijhoff, 1923-25. (Werken uitgegeven door de Linschoten Vereeniging; XXI, > XXII and XXIV). > > Hope this helps > > Peter > > > ______________________________________________________ > Visit the MapHist WWW page > > > YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY > Dr Peter van der Krogt > Map Historian, Explokart Research Program > Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht > P.O. Box 80.115 > 3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands > > e-mail: p.vanderkrogt@frw.ruu.nl and peter.vanderkrogt@wxs.nl > Fax +31 15 212 6063 > YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 5 16:24:44 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04 (8.8.7) for id QAA08707 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:24:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA28716. Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:23:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA28712 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:23:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from server.sota-oh.com [206.21.85.194] by svin07 (8.8.7) for id QAA08393 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:23:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_phlip ([206.244.123.20]) by server.SOTA-OH.COM (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-12333) with SMTP id AAA339 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:24:29 -0500 Message-ID: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Exploration" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Alderton, Philippa" Subject: [EXP] Fw: Coffee, Tea, and Sugar Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 10:25:05 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hello, and Happy New Year to the List! On the SCA Cooks List, we're discussing the arrival of coffee, tea, and sugar in the European/Mediterranean area. If any of you have some insight or knowledge of this subject, I'd be most happy to hear from you, and I'll pass the postings along. Thanks, Phlip phlip@morganco.net Never a horse that cain't be rode, And never a rider that cain't be throwed. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 5 17:29:43 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04 (8.8.7) for id RAA09451 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:29:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id RAA28824. Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:27:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA28820 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:27:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin04 (8.8.7) for id RAA09408 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:27:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from heabppp41.helsingborg.se (heabppp41.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.201]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id RAA04895 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:27:14 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <34B18379.30A@helsingborg.se> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 17:06:01 -0800 From: Bertil Haggman Organization: CRG X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Reis van Mahu en De Cordes 1598 - 1600 References: <199801051352.OAA26509@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Andre Engels wrote: > I found a report of this voyage in the following book: > Dr. M.G. de Boer: Van Oude Voyagien. Amsterdam: Joost van den Vondel, no year. > > The book appears to be a 1950s reprint of a work somewhere from the 1930s or > so. The text is too long to copy here as a whole (one chapter of about 30 > pages), so I will just give an overview of the voyage. The above was great. Just what I needed. Thanks a lot. Already received the other answer, which was helpful too but yours was much more detailed and these facts cannot be found in Swedish encyclopedias. Happy New Year Bertil Haggman bertil.haggman@helsingborg.se From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 5 20:10:53 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA12062 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:10:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA29132. Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:08:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA29128 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:08:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us [146.115.194.10] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA20633 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:08:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from [146.115.194.168] by bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:08:26 -0500 X-Sender: reaston@bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:09:33 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: reaston@bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us (Robert W. Easton) Subject: Re: [EXP] Fw: Coffee, Tea, and Sugar Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I have a pamphlet called "The Migration of Food" compiled by Bill O'Connell; it does not specifically answer your question, but it does cite an interesting source, which may have the answer. Hortus Third- A Concise Dictinary of Plants Cultivated in the United Sttes and Canada, by Liberty Hyde Bailey and Ethel Zoe Bailey, revised and expanded by the staff of the LIberty Hyde Bailey Hortatorium of the New York State College of Agriculture and Life Sciences at Cornell University (New York, Macmillan. 1976) As I said, it may not have the answer, but it may lead you towards it. And, what is the SCA Cooks List? Robert Easton Robert W. Easton Bancroft School 110 Shore drive Worcester, MA USA 01605 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 5 21:05:55 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA13007 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:05:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA29251. Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:05:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA29247 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:04:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from server.sota-oh.com [206.21.85.194] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA20872 (ESMTP). Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:04:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_phlip ([206.244.123.13]) by server.SOTA-OH.COM (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-12333) with SMTP id AAA366 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:06:11 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Conversation with last message X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Exploration" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Alderton, Philippa" Subject: Re: [EXP] Fw: Coffee, Tea, and Sugar Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 15:06:50 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The SCA is an organization which is named The Society for Creative Anachronism which reenacts medieval/Renaissance times in dress and events. We're a bit like a year-round Ren Faire, except we're all participants, and we have different sites each week-end. For a fuller description of the Society, go to http://www.sca.org We try to stick with the years from roughly 600-1600 CE, but there are some overlaps to modern times, particularly in areas such as safe sex, sanitation and medical care- we're not ignorant primitives. Our main focus tends to be on research into skills, arts and sciences, and dress of that period, and one of my interests is in cooking, so I'm on the Cook's List. The Cook's List focuses on the recipes and cooking methods used pre-1600, although that date is often extended into 1650 or there abouts, since availability of early recipes is a bit sparse. We also get int o camp foods since we have a number of camping events, and anything else of mutual interest. If you'd like to join our list, let me know and I'll send you instructions. Thank you much for your response. I've already posted it to the List. phlip@morganco.net Never a horse that cain't be rode, And never a rider that cain't be throwed. . : : And, what is the SCA Cooks List? : : Robert Easton : : Robert W. Easton : Bancroft School : 110 Shore drive : Worcester, MA : USA 01605 : : From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jan 6 10:38:22 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA00973 (ESMTP). Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:38:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id KAA00225. Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:36:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA00218 (ESMTP). Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:36:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery id KAA28376. Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:36:14 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199801060936.KAA28376@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Fw: Coffee, Tea, and Sugar To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:36:14 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The following was originally sent by Paul D. Buell (pdbuell@sprintmail.com), but refused by majordomo as a non-member submission. Andre Engels. > Coffee, early 16th century in Egypt, maybe a little before, shortly > thereafter in Turkey, in south France by late 17th century even earlier in > England, but not a common beverage until the 17th century. Tea, 16th century > in the trading countries, already a commodity in the Turkic world prior to > that date, probably generally in use 17-18th centuries. Sugar is much older, > probably introduced (as a refined product) through Muslim Sicily. Oh, did I > mention that Coffee was a medicinal before it was a beverage. There is a > single coffee bean surviving from the Golden Horde capital destroyed at the > very end of the 13th century, as I recall. Coffee is, of course, from > Ethiopia and got to Egypt via Yemen. On the history of tea, note who calls > it cha or chai and who calls it tea. Cha is north Chinese, tea is from the > Fuchienese pronunciation of cha. Enough already... Paul D. Buell > -----Original Message----- > From: Alderton, Philippa > To: Exploration > Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 7:38 AM > Subject: [EXP] Fw: Coffee, Tea, and Sugar > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, and Happy New Year to the List! > > > > On the SCA Cooks List, we're discussing the arrival of coffee, tea, and > > sugar in the European/Mediterranean area. If any of you have some insight > > or knowledge of this subject, I'd be most happy to hear from you, and I'll > > pass the postings along. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Phlip > > > > phlip@morganco.net > > > > Never a horse that cain't be rode, > > And never a rider that cain't be throwed. > > > > > -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html For every genius once thought a fool, there are a thousand fools still so regarded. -- Sean Ellis From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jan 6 13:49:51 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA03776 (ESMTP). Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:49:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id NAA00373. Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:48:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA00369 (ESMTP). Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:48:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.ids.pl [195.117.3.131] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA11013 (ESMTP). Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:48:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from robertsz (term3.waw.ids.edu.pl [148.81.58.131]) by ids.pl (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA18893 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:40:40 +0100 (MET) From: "Robert Szymczak" To: Subject: [EXP] Harriman Alaska Expedition Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:40:46 +0100 Message-ID: <01bd1aa0$504dafc0$833a5194@robertsz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR It can be useful for somebody. On Library of Congress' site there is a photocopy of Harriman Alaska Expedition Chronicles, May-August 1899 (http://lcweb2.loc.gov:8081/mss/amrvm/vmh/vmh.html#Cover ). Above 300 original pages in excellent quality. Other precious staff on The Evolution of the Conservation Movement, 1850-1920 http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/amrvhtml/conshome.html All the best in New Year, Robert From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jan 6 13:49:54 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA03781 (ESMTP). Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:49:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id NAA00354. Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:45:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA00350 (ESMTP). Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:44:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from server.sota-oh.com [206.21.85.194] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA03663 (ESMTP). Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:44:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_phlip ([206.244.123.20]) by server.SOTA-OH.COM (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-12333) with SMTP id AAA266; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:45:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199801060638.GAA21047@axionet.com> References: Conversation <199801060638.GAA21047@axionet.com> with last message <199801060638.GAA21047@axionet.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Beckum" , "Bedwyr" , "Betty" , "Brocc" , "Cooks" , "David Lee" , "Day, Alan" , "East Kingdom list" , "Geoffrey and Samirah and Cat" , "Exploration" , "Horses" , "Jim Pandy" , "John Benson" , "Mark Shoemaker" , "Mary Tortorelli" , "Middlebridge" , "Mike Liming" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Alderton, Philippa" Subject: [EXP] Fw: Email and the male organ- OOP Humor Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 07:46:12 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Considering some recent discussions, I think this is rather appropriate! phlip@morganco.net Never a horse that cain't be rode, And never a rider that cain't be throwed. Subject: Email and the male organ Top 10 Reasons Why E-Mail is Like the Male Reproductive Organ 10. Those who have it would be devastated if it were ever cut off. 9.Those who have it think that those who don't are somehow inferior. 8.Those who don't have it may agree that it's neat, but think it's not worth the fuss that those who have it make about it. 7. Many of those who don't have it would like to try it (e-mail envy). 6.It's more fun when it's up, but this makes it hard to get any real work done. 5.In the distant past, its only purpose was to transmit information vital to the survival of the species. Some people still think that's the only thing it should be used for, but most folks today use it for fun most of the time. 4. If you don't apply the appropriate measures, it can spread viruses. 3.If you use it too much, you'll find it becomes more and more difficult to think coherently. 2.We attach an importance to it that is far greater than it's actual size and influence warrant. 1.If you're not careful with what you do with it, it can get you into a lot of trouble. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jan 16 04:28:27 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA07732 (ESMTP). Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:28:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA01080. Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:26:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA01076 (ESMTP). Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:26:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from dns.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA21325 (ESMTP). Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:26:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia122n.ncia.net [207.141.176.122]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA04520 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:25:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34BED35E.C616E64E@ncia.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:26:22 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Prior to CC's first voyage the Portuguese were trading trinkets for valuable items and some- times for slaves on the west coast of Africa. What was the market for slaves at that time? Who bought them? At what sorts of work were they used? Where? And while you're at it, what is a hawk's bell, anyway? Thanx, RB From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jan 16 16:40:46 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA17463 (ESMTP). Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:40:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA01368. Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:37:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA01364 (ESMTP). Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:37:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA25360 (ESMTP). Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:37:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from aagaard01.u.washington.edu (wolfram@aagaard01.u.washington.edu [140.142.14.3]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id HAA32274 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:36:41 -0800 Received: from localhost (wolfram@localhost) by aagaard01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id HAA14100 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:36:41 -0800 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:36:39 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Buell" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 In-Reply-To: <34BED35E.C616E64E@ncia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The initial slave market consisted of bringing west africans back to Portugal to serve as servants in wealthier houses. Later (but before Columbus went to the Americas) african slaves were used as labor for clearing land for among other things the begginning of sugar production at St Thomas & Prince, Cape Verde, the Azores, and the Madieras. An excellent source of information for this is the following: Author: Fernandez-Armesto, Felipe. Title: Before Columbus : exploration and colonisation from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic, 1229-1492 / Felipe Fernandez- Armesto. Pub. Info.: Basingstoke : Macmillan Education, 1987. Hawks bells were little brass and copper bells (sort of like the bells that kids get at Christmas) that were used most sucessfully as barter goods with less "advanced" societies during first contact. (Vasco da Gama, for example tried to trade hawks bells and similar trinkets for spices in India, but was unsucessful due to the advanced state of local trade and economy. I also get the impression that hawks bells were insufficient for the trade in slaves. Hopefully this is of some use, or can serve as a starting point for more info. J. Buell > Prior to CC's first voyage the Portuguese were trading trinkets for > valuable items and some- times for slaves on the west coast of Africa. > What was the market for slaves at that time? Who bought them? At what > sorts of work were they used? Where? > And while you're at it, what is a hawk's bell, anyway? > Thanx, > RB > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jan 16 18:15:09 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA18442 (ESMTP). Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:15:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA01474. Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:13:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA01470 (ESMTP). Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:13:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA24331 (ESMTP). Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:13:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from ncia.net (ncia109n.ncia.net [207.141.176.109]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA06766 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:12:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34BF9527.C3F0664E@ncia.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:13:11 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR J. Buell wrote: > The initial slave market consisted of bringing west africans > back to Portugal to serve as servants in wealthier houses. Later (but > before Columbus went to the Americas) african slaves were used as labor > for clearing land for among other things the begginning of sugar > production at St Thomas & Prince, Cape Verde, the Azores, and the > Madieras. An excellent source of information for this is the following: > > Author: Fernandez-Armesto, Felipe. > Title: Before Columbus : exploration and colonisation from the > Mediterranean to the Atlantic, 1229-1492 / Felipe Fernandez- > Armesto. > Pub. Info.: Basingstoke : Macmillan Education, 1987. > > Hawks bells were little brass and copper bells (sort of like the > bells that kids get at Christmas) that were used most sucessfully as > barter goods with less "advanced" societies during first contact. (Vasco > da Gama, for example tried to trade hawks bells and similar trinkets for > spices in India, but was unsucessful due to the advanced state of > local trade and economy. I also get the impression that hawks bells > were insufficient for the trade in slaves. > > Hopefully this is of some use, or can serve as a starting point for more > info. > > J. Buell > > > Prior to CC's first voyage the Portuguese were trading trinkets for > > valuable items and some- times for slaves on the west coast of Africa. > > What was the market for slaves at that time? Who bought them? At what > > sorts of work were they used? Where? > > And while you're at it, what is a hawk's bell, anyway? > > Thanx, > > RB > > > > Many thanks. The information is indeed helpful. Use on plantations in the islands occurred as a possibility, but had not thought about sale to wealthy persons as servants. RB From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jan 18 19:04:59 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA08120 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:04:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA03738. Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:00:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA03689 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:00:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@hydrogen.inbe.net [194.7.1.8] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA25166 (ESMTP). Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:57:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from pool051a-109.innet.be (pool051a-109.innet.be [194.7.8.109]) by hydrogen.inbe.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA27019; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:57:54 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199801180957.KAA27019@hydrogen.inbe.net> X-Sender: pub00721@pophost.club.innet.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:50:23 +0000 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Deckers Johan Subject: [EXP] information asked about Bernacchi Angelo Guilio Dieog Cc: pub00721@innet.be Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hey, For a study about Louis Charles Bernacchi, an antartic explorer, who was a member of two expeditions, (Borchgrevink 1898-1900 and Scott 1901-04) I'm looking for information on his father Angelo Guilio Diego Bernacchi, born in Italy(?).He married in Belgium a flemish girl and mooved later on to Maria Island near to the east coast of Australia. Who can help me with more information about him? Thanks Johan Deckers From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 19 08:37:22 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id IAA26324 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:37:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id IAA04798. Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:31:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id IAA04791 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:31:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id IAA01833 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:31:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from [194.224.78.104] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id BAA54192 (8.8.6/50); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 01:30:49 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980119081014.006d67d4@students.wisc.edu> X-Sender: ASANDMAN@students.wisc.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:10:14 -0600 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Alison Sandman Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 In-Reply-To: <34BED35E.C616E64E@ncia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In 16th-century Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as well as the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While I know little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not new in the 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own in the 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and enslaved prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does anyone know how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th centuries? Thanks. Alison Sandman At 10:26 PM 1/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >Prior to CC's first voyage the Portuguese were trading trinkets for >valuable items and some- times for slaves on the west coast of Africa. >What was the market for slaves at that time? Who bought them? At what >sorts of work were they used? Where? >And while you're at it, what is a hawk's bell, anyway? >Thanx, >RB > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 19 15:49:39 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA03795 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:49:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA06866. Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:43:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA06862 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:43:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay-0.ziplink.net [206.15.168.49] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA05400 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:43:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from LOCALNAME (nyc-ip-1-148.ziplink.net [208.196.104.148]) by ziplink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01304; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:42:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34C36719.6F5E@ziplink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:45:45 -0500 From: "Michael J. Mooney" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl CC: emerald@ziplink.net Subject: [EXP] JEAN BAPTISTE DE LOZIER BOUVET Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I'd like to know more about this intrepid, 18th Century French navigator/explorer who discovered the remote South Atlantic (sub- Antarctic) island named after him (January 1, 1739) - and opened the door to the eventual discovery of Antarctica. I've found some snippets of information at the library plus a better mention of him in the colorful Reader's Digest coffee-table book on the antarctic region (title escapes me at the moment). Also of interest are his navigational techniques and what lead to his erroneous original plot (re longitude) of "his" island that baffled the likes of Cook, Ross and others for many decades thereafter. Lastly, have any stamps ever been issued to honor Captain Bouvet? Thanks. M i k e -- Michael J. Mooney | Internet: 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44) | emerald@ziplink.net Flushing, New York, 11355-2657 USA | CompuServe: FAX: (718) 460-6885 | 70372,2454 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 19 16:44:04 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA04511 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:44:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA07097. Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:40:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA07093 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:40:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id QAA16283. Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:40:45 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199801191540.QAA16283@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] JEAN BAPTISTE DE LOZIER BOUVET To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:40:44 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <34C36719.6F5E@ziplink.net> from "Michael J. Mooney" at Jan 19, 98 09:45:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Michael J. Mooney wrote: > > I'd like to know more about this intrepid, 18th Century French > navigator/explorer who discovered the remote South Atlantic (sub- > Antarctic) island named after him (January 1, 1739) - and opened the > door to the eventual discovery of Antarctica. > > I've found some snippets of information at the library plus a better > mention of him in the colorful Reader's Digest coffee-table book on the > antarctic region (title escapes me at the moment). Try this link: http://www.south-pole.com/p0000067.htm Furthermore, here is a quote from Jacques Brosse: Great Voyages of Discovery. Circumnavigators and Scientists, 1764-1843. New York/Oxford: Facts on File. Translated from French (1983) by Stanley Hochman. It was to look for Gonneville's Land that two ships set sail from Lorient on July 19, 1739, under the command of Captain Bouvet de Lozier, who was in the service of the French East India Company. On January 1, 1739, while their ships were surrounded by icebergs and floating blocks of ice, the navigators caught sight of the steep bluff of a snow-covered land at 54oS. Bouvet, who thought he was dealing with a tip of the southern continent, called it Cape Circumcision. The Longitude he reported, however, was incorrect, which led to many difficulties in rediscovering this land. In any case, what he had sighted was an isolated island now identified on the maps as Bouvet Island. [Gonneville was a French explorer from the early sixteenth century. Maps of Bouvet's period show 'Terre de Gonneville' in the south-Atlantic part of Terra Australis. The area he visited is now known to have been Brazil. - AE] > Also of interest are his navigational techniques and what lead to his > erroneous original plot (re longitude) of "his" island that baffled the > likes of Cook, Ross and others for many decades thereafter. > > Lastly, have any stamps ever been issued to honor Captain Bouvet? > Thanks. I would not know, but for this information you should look at the Antarctic Philatelic Home Page, http://www.south-pole.com/homepage.html . I do not think you will find the information there, but you might try asking the maintainer of the site, Gary Pierson, webmaster@south-pole.com . -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html I disagree with everything you say, but I would fight to the death for your right to say it. -- Voltaire From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 19 19:30:12 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA07348 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:30:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA07503. Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:25:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA07499 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:25:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA07313 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:25:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from ncia.net (ncia80n.ncia.net [207.141.176.80]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA13463 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:24:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34C39A74.667835E7@ncia.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:24:52 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 References: <3.0.2.32.19980119081014.006d67d4@students.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Alison Sandman wrote: > There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In 16th-century > Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as well as > the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While I know > little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not new in the > 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own in the > 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and enslaved > prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does anyone know > how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th centuries? > Thanks. > > Alison Sandman > > At 10:26 PM 1/15/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Prior to CC's first voyage the Portuguese were trading trinkets for > >valuable items and some- times for slaves on the west coast of Africa. > >What was the market for slaves at that time? Who bought them? At what > >sorts of work were they used? Where? > >And while you're at it, what is a hawk's bell, anyway? > >Thanx, > >RB > > > > Thank you for this interesting wrinkle. Yes, I am aware of the Spanish involvement in slavery trade. I was interested especially, though, in knowing what the Portuguese were doing with the slaves they took from West Africa before 1492, when Diaz and his predecessors were making their way down the West African coast little by little to see if they could find its lower end and get around it. Diaz discovered the Cape of Good Hope in 1488 and shortly therafter Vasco da Gama made it around and to India. All this happened prior to Columbus's discovery of the "Indies." Did I understand you to say that some Spanish bought slaves from the Portuguese prior to 1492? Thanks very much, Richard Burack From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 19 20:58:40 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA08358 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:58:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA07636. Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:56:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA07632 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:56:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA06545 (ESMTP). Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:56:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from heabppp46.helsingborg.se (heabppp46.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.206]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id UAA03540 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:56:20 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <34C42F43.1555@helsingborg.se> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:59:47 -0800 From: Bertil Haggman Organization: CRG X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] BOUVET, BOUVETOEYA AND NORWAY References: <199801191540.QAA16283@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR > Michael J. Mooney wrote: > > > > I'd like to know more about this intrepid, 18th Century French > > navigator/explorer who discovered the remote South Atlantic (sub- > > Antarctic) island named after him (January 1, 1739) - and opened the > > door to the eventual discovery of Antarctica. > > > > I've found some snippets of information at the library plus a better > > mention of him in the colorful Reader's Digest coffee-table book on the > > antarctic region (title escapes me at the moment). Dear Mr. Mooney, If you do not know already it might interest you that Bouvetoeya (the cartographic correct name) since 1928 is Norwegian territory. Greetings Bertil Haggman bertil.haggman@helsingborg.se From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jan 20 00:41:30 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA12002 (ESMTP). Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:41:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA08191. Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:37:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA08187 (ESMTP). Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:37:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay-0.ziplink.net [206.15.168.49] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA14060 (ESMTP). Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:37:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from LOCALNAME (nyc-ip-1-101.ziplink.net [208.196.104.101]) by ziplink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13696; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:37:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34C3E46B.6917@ziplink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:40:27 -0500 From: "Michael J. Mooney" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl CC: emerald@ziplink.net Subject: Re: [EXP] BOUVET, BOUVETOEYA AND NORWAY References: <199801191540.QAA16283@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <34C42F43.1555@helsingborg.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Bertil Haggman wrote: > > > Michael J. Mooney wrote: > > > > > > I'd like to know more about this intrepid, 18th Century French > > > navigator/explorer who discovered the remote South Atlantic (sub- > > > Antarctic) island named after him (January 1, 1739) - and opened the > > > door to the eventual discovery of Antarctica. > > > > > > I've found some snippets of information at the library plus a better > > > mention of him in the colorful Reader's Digest coffee-table book on the > > > antarctic region (title escapes me at the moment). > > Dear Mr. Mooney, > > If you do not know already it might > interest you that Bouvetoeya (the > cartographic correct name) since > 1928 is Norwegian territory. > > Greetings > > Bertil Haggman > bertil.haggman@helsingborg.se Bertil, Greetings to you...and thanks for replying. Yes, I'm well aware of the proper spelling for Bouvet Island. I've researched the island and it's history since the early 1970's and have had a number of magazine articles published on this intriguing place that's further away from anywhere...than anywhere. Over the years I've come to use both spellings in my correspondence. When addressing unfamiliar sources...such as this...I open with "Bouvet." Then I switch over to Bouvetoya when I know I'm amonst knowledgeable people. :-) BTW, I'm not that familiar Scandinavian typographic symbols but, when using my word processor, I use the "o" with a slash through it. I'm sure it has a proper name. Is this the equivalent of the "oe"? Perhaps you can enlighten me on this. Do I read your e-mail address correctly to presume you're in Sweden? I have some distant Swedish roots somewhere back over the years (to go with my Irish-German heritage). All that said...are you in a position to reply to the gist of my original message? :-) M i k e -- Michael J. Mooney | Internet: 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44) | emerald@ziplink.net Flushing, New York, 11355-2657 USA | CompuServe: FAX: (718) 460-6885 | 70372,2454 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jan 20 20:48:23 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA08541 (ESMTP). Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:48:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA11364. Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:43:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA11360 (ESMTP). Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:43:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA05997 (ESMTP). Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:43:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from heabppp41.helsingborg.se (heabppp41.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.201]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id UAA15220; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:43:00 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <34C57D4E.2A23@helsingborg.se> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:45:02 -0800 From: Bertil Haggman Organization: CRG X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl CC: emerald@ziplink.net Subject: Re: [EXP] BOUVET, BOUVETOEYA AND NORWAY References: <199801191540.QAA16283@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <34C42F43.1555@helsingborg.se> <34C3E46B.6917@ziplink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Michael J. Mooney wrote: > Greetings to you...and thanks for replying. > > Yes, I'm well aware of the proper spelling for Bouvet Island. I've > researched the island and it's history since the early 1970's and have > had a number of magazine articles published on this intriguing place > that's further away from anywhere...than anywhere. Dear Mr. Mooney, Yes, thought maybe you were an expert on Bouvet and not his island. > Over the years I've come to use both spellings in my correspondence. > When addressing unfamiliar sources...such as this...I open with > "Bouvet." Then I switch over to Bouvetoya when I know I'm amonst > knowledgeable people. :-) Correct you are. As there are so much problems with the "o" Umlaut I use "oe" for the Norwegian and Swedish versions (which differ). > BTW, I'm not that familiar Scandinavian typographic symbols but, when > using my word processor, I use the "o" with a slash through it. I'm > sure it has a proper name. Is this the equivalent of the "oe"? Perhaps > you can enlighten me on this. Norwegians use "o" with a slash so that is the correct spelling. > Do I read your e-mail address correctly to presume you're in Sweden? I > have some distant Swedish roots somewhere back over the years (to go > with my Irish-German heritage). Always glad to meet someone with Swedish ancestors in cyberspace. > All that said...are you in a position to reply to the gist of my > original message? :-) Before I go to the trouble of checking e-mail addresses and such. Have you been in contact with Norwegian institutions responsible for the administration of Bouvetoeya? Am sure they have the answers for many of your questions. Checked my not complete collection of mint Norwegian Arctic and Antarctic stamps but there is no stamp with Bouvetoeya. It seems quite possible that TAAF has issued a commemorative stamp in honour of Bouvet. Greetings Bertil Haggman From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 22 00:14:45 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA05189 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:14:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA16215. Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:11:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA16211 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:11:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA27683 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:11:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from ncia.net (ncia127n.ncia.net [207.141.176.127]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA03393 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:10:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34C6806C.FD68662E@ncia.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:10:36 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 References: <3.0.2.32.19980119081014.006d67d4@students.wisc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Alison Sandman wrote: > There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In 16th-century > Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as well as > the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While I know > little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not new in the > 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own in the > 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and enslaved > prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does anyone know > how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th centuries? > Thanks. > > Alison Sandman > > Alison, In restudying your message, you seem possibly to be saying that the Spanish were in the business of slavery even prior to the discovery of the New World, as were the Portiguese. Is this what you meant to say? If so, where did the Spanish acquire the slaves? (Unless you mean to say that they bought them from the Portuguese.) It's an item that interests me because it is written that when Columbus returned to Spain with slaves from the Caribbeean, Isabella was displeased and ordered their return. Thank you, RB From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 22 00:38:53 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA05844 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:38:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA16446. Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:37:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA16442 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:37:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.sota-oh.com [206.21.85.194] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA29088 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:36:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_phlip ([206.244.123.13]) by mail.sota-oh.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-45112U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA150 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:35:54 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <34C6806C.FD68662E@ncia.net> References: Conversation <3.0.2.32.19980119081014.006d67d4@students.wisc.edu> with last message <34C6806C.FD68662E@ncia.net> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Exploration" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Alderton, Philippa" Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 18:39:51 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O If I remember my History correctly, Slavery had been an institution for zillions of years, it was only in modern times that slaves were limited to black Africans. Think- how many Roman households boasted of having a Greek slave for the education of their children? How about the Pharoah's slavery of the Jews, which led to Moses and the exodus? Slaves of the Jews had to be freed in a certain number of years-7? Any Muslim slave would be freed if he were converted to Islam. Also, during this period, consider the role of serfs. They were slaves in everything but name. I don't know why Isabella sent them back, but it is certain that it wasn't a sensitivity, in the period, to the concept of slavery. Incidently, are you all aware that the popularity of African slaves in the Americas was a result of the fact that Native Americans made lousy slaves? phlip@morganco.net Never a horse that cain't be rode, And never a rider that cain't be throwed. ---------- : : : Alison Sandman wrote: : : > There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In 16th-century : > Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as well as : > the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While I know : > little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not new in the : > 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own in the : > 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and enslaved : > prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does anyone know : > how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th centuries? : > Thanks. : > : > Alison Sandman : > : > : : Alison, : In restudying your message, you seem possibly to be saying that the Spanish : were in the business of slavery even prior to the discovery of the New World, : as were the Portiguese. Is this what you meant to say? If so, where did the : Spanish acquire the slaves? (Unless you mean to say that they bought them from : the Portuguese.) : It's an item that interests me because it is written that when Columbus : returned to Spain with slaves from the Caribbeean, Isabella was displeased and : ordered their return. : Thank you, : RB : : From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 22 00:45:14 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA05873 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:45:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA16458. Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:42:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA16454 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:42:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from inet.lasierra.edu [192.156.214.14] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA06782 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:42:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from [206.17.219.14] (jackson.lib.lasierra.edu [206.17.219.14]) by inet.lasierra.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09519 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:44:36 -0800 X-Sender: tzbarasc@inet.lasierra.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34C6806C.FD68662E@ncia.net> References: <3.0.2.32.19980119081014.006d67d4@students.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:43:32 -0800 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR At 6:10 PM -0500 1/21/98, Richard Burack wrote: >Alison Sandman wrote: >> There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. > In restudying your message, you seem possibly to be saying that the Spanish >were in the business of slavery even prior to the discovery of the New World, >as were the Portiguese. Is this what you meant to say? If so, where did the >Spanish acquire the slaves? Moorish captives, most likely. Don't forget that 1492, the year of the discovery of America, was also the year of the fall of Granada, when the Spanish (after eight centuries of war) had finally taken the last Moslem stronghold in Western Europe. Tony Z Special Collections Librarian & Archivist E-mail: tzbarasc@lasierra.edu La Sierra University Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 22 11:25:30 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id LAA19700 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:25:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id LAA17184. Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:20:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id LAA17180 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:20:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id LAA27751 (SMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:20:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from griffin-crofts.demon.co.uk ([193.237.32.65]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2011263; 22 Jan 98 9:54 GMT From: Nigel Griffin To: discovery@win.tue.nl MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at post.mail.demon.net Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:49:57 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <885462881.2011263.0@griffin-crofts.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The displeasure that Isabella expressed about Columbus's first consignment of slaves is reported, of course, by those (and most particularly Bartolom de las Casas) whose narrative strategies involved the portrayal of the queen as inspired by God and primarily concerned with the conversion of Indians to Christianity. Nigel Griffin ---------- From: Richard Burack To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 1998 23:10 Alison Sandman wrote: > There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In 16th-century > Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as well as > the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While I know > little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not new in the > 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own in the > 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and enslaved > prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does anyone know > how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th centuries? > Thanks. > > Alison Sandman > > Alison, In restudying your message, you seem possibly to be saying that the Spanish were in the business of slavery even prior to the discovery of the New World, as were the Portiguese. Is this what you meant to say? If so, where did the Spanish acquire the slaves? (Unless you mean to say that they bought them from the Portuguese.) It's an item that interests me because it is written that when Columbus returned to Spain with slaves from the Caribbeean, Isabella was displeased and ordered their return. Thank you, RB From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 22 15:31:50 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA22069 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:31:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA17911. Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:27:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin10 [131.155.70.127] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA17907 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:27:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA20030 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:27:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-186.Minn.Net [204.157.201.186]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA23764 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:27:19 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <885462881.2011263.0@griffin-crofts.demon.co.uk> References: Conversation <885462881.2011263.0@griffin-crofts.demon.co.uk> with last message <885462881.2011263.0@griffin-crofts.demon.co.uk> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 09:23:31 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Queen Isabel's displeasure at the return of slaves was undoubtedly genuine. (We must recall in this context that Columbus, too, was just as concerned with the conversion of the natives as anyone.) Further, since Las Casas was the chief defender of Indian's rights, he would have little motive to embroider the point. A couple of points should be made in this context. First, the entire notion of slaves and slavery has evolved radically over the centuries. Chattel slaves (considered by law to be property without rights) came fairly late to the game, primarily in the U. S. south. In previous centuries and other cultures, slaves often had specific legal rights and recourse in the courts. second, in Spain during the 15th and 16th centuries, slavery was generally illegal, with certain exceptions. These exceptions were primarily for people at war with the crown, e.g., Moors and Canary Islanders. (The story of the natives of the Canaries and their contact with the Spanish colonists parallels, at an earlier era, the story of Native Americans). There are a number of letters and proclamations by the Spanish crown in this era specifically requiring good treatment of Indians (which were universally ignored by the Spanish colonists). The importation of African slaves to America started when the Indian population had become so depleted (by disease and overwork) that there were no longer enough people to work the fields and mines. Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > The displeasure that Isabella expressed about Columbus's first consignment > of slaves is reported, of course, by those (and most particularly Bartolom > de las Casas) whose narrative strategies involved the portrayal of the > queen as inspired by God and primarily concerned with the conversion of > Indians to Christianity. > > Nigel Griffin > > ---------- > From: Richard Burack > To: discovery@win.tue.nl > Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 > Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 1998 23:10 > > > > Alison Sandman wrote: > > > There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In > 16th-century > > Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as well as > > the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While I know > > little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not new in > the > > 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own in the > > 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and enslaved > > prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does anyone know > > how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th centuries? > > Thanks. > > > > Alison Sandman > > > > > > Alison, > In restudying your message, you seem possibly to be saying that the > Spanish > were in the business of slavery even prior to the discovery of the New > World, > as were the Portiguese. Is this what you meant to say? If so, where did the > Spanish acquire the slaves? (Unless you mean to say that they bought them > from > the Portuguese.) > It's an item that interests me because it is written that when Columbus > returned to Spain with slaves from the Caribbeean, Isabella was displeased > and > ordered their return. > Thank you, > RB From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 22 17:16:32 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA23108 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:16:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id RAA18206. Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:15:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA18198 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:15:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA01200 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:14:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from aagaard01.u.washington.edu (wolfram@aagaard01.u.washington.edu [140.142.14.3]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id IAA23270 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:14:48 -0800 Received: from localhost (wolfram@localhost) by aagaard01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id IAA31896 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:14:48 -0800 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:14:47 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Buell" To: Discovery list Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Thank you Keith. Something that should be pointed out is that it was by the perogative of the Queen that Columbus' expedition was recognized and partly funded, and thus the New World came under her jurisdiction (as opposed to Ferdinands). All lands discovered by Columbus were his to act as Governor-General over, but only as an agent and representative of the Crown. The people living on said lands thus became subjects of the Queen, and it was not in the interest of the Queen to allow her representatives to exceed their authority and enslave the local population. And, as said excellently below, it was "illegal" according to Spanish legal tradition of the period, as well as counter to Papal Bulls and associated canon law. On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Keith Pickering wrote: > Queen Isabel's displeasure at the return of slaves was undoubtedly genuine. > (We must recall in this context that Columbus, too, was just as concerned > with the conversion of the natives as anyone.) Further, since Las Casas > was the chief defender of Indian's rights, he would have little motive to > embroider the point. > > A couple of points should be made in this context. First, the entire > notion of slaves and slavery has evolved radically over the centuries. > Chattel slaves (considered by law to be property without rights) came > fairly late to the game, primarily in the U. S. south. In previous > centuries and other cultures, slaves often had specific legal rights and > recourse in the courts. second, in Spain during the 15th and 16th > centuries, slavery was generally illegal, with certain exceptions. These > exceptions were primarily for people at war with the crown, e.g., Moors and > Canary Islanders. (The story of the natives of the Canaries and their > contact with the Spanish colonists parallels, at an earlier era, the story > of Native Americans). > > There are a number of letters and proclamations by the Spanish crown in > this era specifically requiring good treatment of Indians (which were > universally ignored by the Spanish colonists). The importation of African > slaves to America started when the Indian population had become so depleted > (by disease and overwork) that there were no longer enough people to work > the fields and mines. > > Keith Pickering > keithp@minn.net > > |====================================== > | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage > | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp > |====================================== > > ---------- > > The displeasure that Isabella expressed about Columbus's first consignment > > of slaves is reported, of course, by those (and most particularly Bartolom > > de las Casas) whose narrative strategies involved the portrayal of the > > queen as inspired by God and primarily concerned with the conversion of > > Indians to Christianity. > > > > Nigel Griffin > > > > ---------- > > From: Richard Burack > > To: discovery@win.tue.nl > > Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 > > Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 1998 23:10 > > > > > > > > Alison Sandman wrote: > > > > > There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In > > 16th-century > > > Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as well > as > > > the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While I know > > > little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not new in > > the > > > 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own in the > > > 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and enslaved > > > prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does anyone know > > > how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th > centuries? > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Alison Sandman > > > > > > > > > > Alison, > > In restudying your message, you seem possibly to be saying that the > > Spanish > > were in the business of slavery even prior to the discovery of the New > > World, > > as were the Portiguese. Is this what you meant to say? If so, where did > the > > Spanish acquire the slaves? (Unless you mean to say that they bought them > > from > > the Portuguese.) > > It's an item that interests me because it is written that when Columbus > > returned to Spain with slaves from the Caribbeean, Isabella was displeased > > and > > ordered their return. > > Thank you, > > RB > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 22 19:11:46 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA24053 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:11:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA18610. Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:09:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA18606 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:09:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA00413 (SMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:09:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from jlallen.geog.uconn.edu by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 22 Jan 98 13:09:45 EST From: "John L. Allen" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:55:48 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd275e$f9839080$17286389@jlallen.geog.uconn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Regarding P. Alderton's concluding paragraph which says: "Incidently, are you all aware that the popularity of African slaves in the Americas was a result of the fact that Native Americans made lousy slaves?" -- I don't know where this version of "the truth" originated but it is patently incorrect. The "popularity" of West Africans as slaves had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of slaves available in the Americas. Slavery was as much an institution in the pre-Columbian Americas as it was in other parts of the world; Native Americans were certainly no strangers to systems of slavery and were no "lousier" as slaves than any other people subjected to involuntary servitude. The "popularity" of the African slave trade with the Americas originated when Native Americans in the Caribbean and the mainland of Mexico and Central America were (a) decimated [literally--in many areas populations were reduced to 10% of their pre-European contact levels] by the Old World diseases to which they had no built-in genetic resistance and (b) reduced in population by the harsh conditions of slavery in Spanish mines, haciendas, and plantations. Particularly in the Caribbean, where a plantation economy demanded heavy labor inputs, once the Native American population was either gone or severely depleted, European colonists--as early as the 1520s--began searching elsewhere for slaves and turned to the pre-existing West African trade. A century later, North American plantation owners also began to take advantage of the West African trade in human lives and misery--not because they had tried to enslave Native Americans and found them to be "lousy" but because, quite simply, it was much cheaper and easier to buy African slaves in large numbers than it was to make the attempt to subjugate similar numbers of Native Americans. The slave trade was well-structured by this time-- economically, socially, and technologically--and using African slaves was simply more convenient. Interestingly, in the American Southeast, members of the Five Civilized Nations (eg., the Cherokee) kept African slaves as well, abandoning their older practices of enslaving individuals from neighboring tribes because it was cheaper and easier to purchase African slaves. Alderton's statement repeats an unsupported claim most of us heard as early as the third grade but there is no basis for it in fact. On an emotional level, I somehow find the assertion that Africans made "popular" (i.e., "good") slaves and Native Americans "lousy" (i.e., "bad") ones both intellectually unsatisfying and more than a tad inflammatory. John Allen Geography, University of Connecticut -----Original Message----- From: Alderton, Philippa To: Exploration Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 >If I remember my History correctly, Slavery had been an institution for >zillions of years, it was only in modern times that slaves were limited to >black Africans. Think- how many Roman households boasted of having a Greek >slave for the education of their children? How about the Pharoah's slavery >of the Jews, which led to Moses and the exodus? Slaves of the Jews had to >be freed in a certain number of years-7? Any Muslim slave would be freed if >he were converted to Islam. Also, during this period, consider the role of >serfs. They were slaves in everything but name. I don't know why Isabella >sent them back, but it is certain that it wasn't a sensitivity, in the >period, to the concept of slavery. > >Incidently, are you all aware that the popularity of African slaves in the >Americas was a result of the fact that >Native Americans made lousy slaves? > >phlip@morganco.net > >Never a horse that cain't be rode, >And never a rider that cain't be throwed. > >---------- >: >: >: Alison Sandman wrote: >: >: > There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In >16th-century >: > Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as well >as >: > the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While I know >: > little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not new in >the >: > 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own in the >: > 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and enslaved >: > prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does anyone know >: > how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th >centuries? >: > Thanks. >: > >: > Alison Sandman >: > >: > >: >: Alison, >: In restudying your message, you seem possibly to be saying that the >Spanish >: were in the business of slavery even prior to the discovery of the New >World, >: as were the Portiguese. Is this what you meant to say? If so, where did >the >: Spanish acquire the slaves? (Unless you mean to say that they bought them >from >: the Portuguese.) >: It's an item that interests me because it is written that when Columbus >: returned to Spain with slaves from the Caribbeean, Isabella was >displeased and >: ordered their return. >: Thank you, >: RB >: >: > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 22 19:16:38 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA24249 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:16:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA18623. Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:16:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA18619 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:16:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from ecuwww.ecu.edu [150.216.17.14] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA00418 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:16:22 +0100 (MET) Received: by ecuwww.ecu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:18:19 -0500 Message-ID: <5198E18CD0B2D011A25C00805FEA97123FEE2C@ECUMAIL2> From: "Shields, Edgar Thomson" To: "'discovery@win.tue.nl'" Subject: RE: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:08:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR On the question of slavery, it is also important to think about Isabel's concern over enslaving the people Columbus encountered in terms of who Isabel--and Columbus, as well as others--believed these people were. Because Columbus believed he had reached the Greater Indies, i.e., the eastern coast of Asia, these people were thought to be Asian. How Asians differed in the European mind from Africans is an area just beginning to be examined. In a bit of self-promotion, a good place to start would be my article "East Makes West: Images of the Orient in Early Spanish and English Literature of North America" [Medievalia et Humanistica N.S. 19 (1992): 97-116]. While Africans were often seen as infidels, Asians were not so clearly defined as such. For example, Columbus (at least in the letter from Jamaica from his fourth voyage) is aware that Marco Polo says the Great Khan of Cathay was interested in learning about Christianity; therefore these people are potential Christians and not able to be enslaved. (In fact, Columbus does suggest enslaving people only from those groups that reject Christianity.) On the other hand, Africans, in light of the Moors being kicked out of Spain in the reconquista, were able to be seen as infidels, rejecters of Christianity, and more likely candidates for enslavement. A second issue to consider, one I know much less about, is that slavery was a much different institution at that time than it came to be in the American South during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries--fixed in period, I understand, and more like indentured servitude. Can anyone provide information about what the laws were concerning slavery in fifteenth- and sixteenth-century Spain and throughout Europe in that period? Tom Shields E. Thomson Shields, Jr., Director Roanoke Colonies Research Office c/o Department of English East Carolina University Greenville, NC 27858-4353 (919) 328-6715 (voice) (919) 328-4889 (fax) ShieldsE@mail.ecu.edu From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 22 21:26:08 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA25276 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:26:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA18808. Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:25:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA18804 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:25:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.sota-oh.com [206.21.85.194] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA01250 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:25:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_phlip ([206.244.123.9]) by mail.sota-oh.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-45112U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA229 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:23:54 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01bd275e$f9839080$17286389@jlallen.geog.uconn.edu> References: Conversation <01bd275e$f9839080$17286389@jlallen.geog.uconn.edu> with last message <01bd275e$f9839080$17286389@jlallen.geog.uconn.edu> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Exploration" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Alderton, Philippa" Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 15:27:09 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The reason the Native Americans made lousy slaves is because of the fact of their high mortality rate. A dead cow can be eaten and/or made into leather, a dead slave must be disposed of in some out-of-common- view manner, and is useless for eating or leather, Hitler and other perverts to the contrary. I do not retract my statement that Native Americans made lousy slaves for that very reason. A DEAD SLAVE IS USELESS! The Africans had a higher resistance to many of the European diseases, probably because of more frequent contact with the Europeans, and also because of the winnowing factor of the inhumane conditions prevalent on many slave ships. Furthermore, where would a Black African run to if he or she escaped? If a Native American escaped, he or she at least had some idea of edible plants and beasts over here, not to mention a familiarity with the local cultures, including the native sign language. All in all, NaTIVE aMERICANS MADE LOUSY SLAVES. phlip@morganco.net Never a horse that cain't be rode, And never a rider that cain't be throwed. ---------- : Regarding P. Alderton's concluding paragraph which says: "Incidently, are : you all aware that the popularity of African slaves in the Americas was a : result of the fact that Native Americans made lousy slaves?" -- : : I don't know where this version of "the truth" originated but it is patently : incorrect. The "popularity" of West Africans as slaves had absolutely : nothing to do with the quality of slaves available in the Americas. Slavery : was as much an institution in the pre-Columbian Americas as it was in other : parts of the world; Native Americans were certainly no strangers to systems : of slavery and were no "lousier" as slaves than any other people subjected : to involuntary servitude. : : The "popularity" of the African slave trade with the Americas originated : when Native Americans in the Caribbean and the mainland of Mexico and : Central America were (a) decimated [literally--in many areas populations : were reduced to 10% of their pre-European contact levels] by the Old World : diseases to which they had no built-in genetic resistance and (b) reduced in : population by the harsh conditions of slavery in Spanish mines, haciendas, : and plantations. Particularly in the Caribbean, where a plantation economy : demanded heavy labor inputs, once the Native American population was either : gone or severely depleted, European colonists--as early as the 1520s--began : searching elsewhere for slaves and turned to the pre-existing West African : trade. A century later, North American plantation owners also began to take : advantage of the West African trade in human lives and misery--not because : they had tried to enslave Native Americans and found them to be "lousy" but : because, quite simply, it was much cheaper and easier to buy African slaves : in large numbers than it was to make the attempt to subjugate similar : numbers of Native Americans. The slave trade was well-structured by this : time-- economically, socially, and technologically--and using African slaves : was simply more convenient. Interestingly, in the American Southeast, : members of the Five Civilized Nations (eg., the Cherokee) kept African : slaves as well, abandoning their older practices of enslaving individuals : from neighboring tribes because it was cheaper and easier to purchase : African slaves. : : Alderton's statement repeats an unsupported claim most of us heard as early : as the third grade but there is no basis for it in fact. On an emotional : level, I somehow find the assertion that Africans made "popular" (i.e., : "good") slaves and Native Americans "lousy" (i.e., "bad") ones both : intellectually unsatisfying and more than a tad inflammatory. : : John Allen : Geography, University of Connecticut : : -----Original Message----- : From: Alderton, Philippa : To: Exploration : Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 6:45 PM : Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 : : : >If I remember my History correctly, Slavery had been an institution for : >zillions of years, it was only in modern times that slaves were limited to : >black Africans. Think- how many Roman households boasted of having a Greek : >slave for the education of their children? How about the Pharoah's slavery : >of the Jews, which led to Moses and the exodus? Slaves of the Jews had to : >be freed in a certain number of years-7? Any Muslim slave would be freed if : >he were converted to Islam. Also, during this period, consider the role of : >serfs. They were slaves in everything but name. I don't know why Isabella : >sent them back, but it is certain that it wasn't a sensitivity, in the : >period, to the concept of slavery. : > : >Incidently, are you all aware that the popularity of African slaves in the : >Americas was a result of the fact that : >Native Americans made lousy slaves? : > : >phlip@morganco.net : > : >Never a horse that cain't be rode, : >And never a rider that cain't be throwed. : > : >---------- : >: : >: : >: Alison Sandman wrote: : >: : >: > There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In : >16th-century : >: > Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as well : >as : >: > the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While I : know : >: > little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not new in : >the : >: > 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own in : the : >: > 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and enslaved : >: > prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does anyone : know : >: > how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th : >centuries? : >: > Thanks. : >: > : >: > Alison Sandman : >: > : >: > : >: : >: Alison, : >: In restudying your message, you seem possibly to be saying that the : >Spanish : >: were in the business of slavery even prior to the discovery of the New : >World, : >: as were the Portiguese. Is this what you meant to say? If so, where did : >the : >: Spanish acquire the slaves? (Unless you mean to say that they bought them : >from : >: the Portuguese.) : >: It's an item that interests me because it is written that when Columbus : >: returned to Spain with slaves from the Caribbeean, Isabella was : >displeased and : >: ordered their return. : >: Thank you, : >: RB : >: : >: : > : > : From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 22 23:23:28 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA25874 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:23:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id XAA18895. Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:22:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA18891 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:22:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.snet.net [204.60.7.83] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA10955 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:22:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from Absaroka.snet.net (ptnm00-sh3-port163.snet.net [204.60.41.163]) by daisy.snet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7/SNET-1.5) with ESMTP id RAA29871 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:21:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801222221.RAA29871@daisy.snet.net> From: "John L. Allen" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:23:09 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR With respect to P. Alderton's concluding paragraph: The reason for the "popularity of African slaves in America" had nothing to do with the highly questionable assertion that "Native Americans made lousy slaves". To begin with, slavery was an institution in the pre-Columbian Americas just as it was elsewhere in the world and it is highly doubtful that Native Americans made any lousier slaves than any other people forced into bondage against their will. There were two primary reasons for the "popularity" of West Africans as slaves: (1) Native American populations were highly subject to European diseases and, in the areas where European slavery first took root (the Caribbean plantation islands) literal decimation (indeed, even extermination in some islands) of indigenous populations from smallpox, measles, diptheria, whooping cough, etc. made importation of a labor force necessary, given the high labor demands of a plantation economy; (2) Once the slave trade was established (by the mid-16th century), with its elaborate social and economic infrastructure, it was cheaper and easier for North American plantation owners and others to acquire the numbers of slaves needed through the African connection rather than attempting to subjugate equivalent numbers of Native Americans. Interestingly, in the American Southeast, among the Five Civilized Nations in particular, Native Americans also held African slaves once the trade was fully developed--and for the same reasons. It was easier and cheaper for the Cherokee to buy Africans in quantity to work plantations than it was to enslave large numbers of, say, Shawnee. The suggestion that white Americans preferred Africans over Native Americans as slaves because Africans presumably were "better slaves" than the "lousy" Native American slaves simply cannot be supported by the literature of slavery in the Americas. ---------- > From: Alderton, Philippa > To: Exploration > Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 > Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 9:39 PM > > If I remember my History correctly, Slavery had been an institution for > zillions of years, it was only in modern times that slaves were limited to > black Africans. Think- how many Roman households boasted of having a Greek > slave for the education of their children? How about the Pharoah's slavery > of the Jews, which led to Moses and the exodus? Slaves of the Jews had to > be freed in a certain number of years-7? Any Muslim slave would be freed if > he were converted to Islam. Also, during this period, consider the role of > serfs. They were slaves in everything but name. I don't know why Isabella > sent them back, but it is certain that it wasn't a sensitivity, in the > period, to the concept of slavery. > > Incidently, are you all aware that the popularity of African slaves in the > Americas was a result of the fact that > Native Americans made lousy slaves? > > phlip@morganco.net > > Never a horse that cain't be rode, > And never a rider that cain't be throwed. > > ---------- > : > : > : Alison Sandman wrote: > : > : > There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In > 16th-century > : > Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as well > as > : > the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While I know > : > little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not new in > the > : > 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own in the > : > 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and enslaved > : > prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does anyone know > : > how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th > centuries? > : > Thanks. > : > > : > Alison Sandman > : > > : > > : > : Alison, > : In restudying your message, you seem possibly to be saying that the > Spanish > : were in the business of slavery even prior to the discovery of the New > World, > : as were the Portiguese. Is this what you meant to say? If so, where did > the > : Spanish acquire the slaves? (Unless you mean to say that they bought them > from > : the Portuguese.) > : It's an item that interests me because it is written that when Columbus > : returned to Spain with slaves from the Caribbeean, Isabella was > displeased and > : ordered their return. > : Thank you, > : RB > : > : > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jan 23 00:25:38 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA27050 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:25:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA19169. Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:25:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA19160 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:25:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.snet.net [204.60.7.83] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA02792 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:25:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from Absaroka.snet.net (ptnm00-sh3-port163.snet.net [204.60.41.163]) by daisy.snet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7/SNET-1.5) with ESMTP id SAA07233 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:24:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801222324.SAA07233@daisy.snet.net> From: "John L. Allen" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:23:49 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR My apologies for the double posting of my response to P. Alderton's "Native Americans made lousy slaves" contention. I access this forum both from my University office and my home office and sometimes get confused about what I've done where. We now have a reply to the first of my duplicate postings that, if I'm summarizing correctly, argues that Native Americans made lousy slaves because they died and couldn't be made into meat or leather. Such an argument brings me to my knees in awe and I hereby capitulate. John Allen Geography, UConn ---------- > From: Alderton, Philippa > To: Exploration > Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 > Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 6:27 PM > > The reason the Native Americans made lousy slaves is because of the fact of > their high mortality rate. A dead cow can be eaten and/or made into > leather, a dead slave must be disposed of in some out-of-common- view > manner, and is useless for eating or leather, Hitler and other perverts to > the contrary. I do not retract my statement that Native Americans made > lousy slaves for that very reason. A DEAD SLAVE IS USELESS! The Africans > had a higher resistance to many of the European diseases, probably because > of more frequent contact with the Europeans, and also because of the > winnowing factor of the inhumane conditions prevalent on many slave ships. > Furthermore, where would a Black African run to if he or she escaped? If a > Native American escaped, he or she at least had some idea of edible plants > and beasts over here, not to mention a familiarity with the local cultures, > including the native sign language. All in all, NaTIVE aMERICANS MADE LOUSY > SLAVES. > > phlip@morganco.net > > Never a horse that cain't be rode, > And never a rider that cain't be throwed. > > ---------- > : Regarding P. Alderton's concluding paragraph which says: "Incidently, are > : you all aware that the popularity of African slaves in the Americas was a > : result of the fact that Native Americans made lousy slaves?" -- > : > : I don't know where this version of "the truth" originated but it is > patently > : incorrect. The "popularity" of West Africans as slaves had absolutely > : nothing to do with the quality of slaves available in the Americas. > Slavery > : was as much an institution in the pre-Columbian Americas as it was in > other > : parts of the world; Native Americans were certainly no strangers to > systems > : of slavery and were no "lousier" as slaves than any other people subjected > : to involuntary servitude. > : > : The "popularity" of the African slave trade with the Americas originated > : when Native Americans in the Caribbean and the mainland of Mexico and > : Central America were (a) decimated [literally--in many areas populations > : were reduced to 10% of their pre-European contact levels] by the Old World > : diseases to which they had no built-in genetic resistance and (b) reduced > in > : population by the harsh conditions of slavery in Spanish mines, haciendas, > : and plantations. Particularly in the Caribbean, where a plantation economy > : demanded heavy labor inputs, once the Native American population was > either > : gone or severely depleted, European colonists--as early as the > 1520s--began > : searching elsewhere for slaves and turned to the pre-existing West African > : trade. A century later, North American plantation owners also began to > take > : advantage of the West African trade in human lives and misery--not because > : they had tried to enslave Native Americans and found them to be "lousy" > but > : because, quite simply, it was much cheaper and easier to buy African > slaves > : in large numbers than it was to make the attempt to subjugate similar > : numbers of Native Americans. The slave trade was well-structured by this > : time-- economically, socially, and technologically--and using African > slaves > : was simply more convenient. Interestingly, in the American Southeast, > : members of the Five Civilized Nations (eg., the Cherokee) kept African > : slaves as well, abandoning their older practices of enslaving individuals > : from neighboring tribes because it was cheaper and easier to purchase > : African slaves. > : > : Alderton's statement repeats an unsupported claim most of us heard as > early > : as the third grade but there is no basis for it in fact. On an emotional > : level, I somehow find the assertion that Africans made "popular" (i.e., > : "good") slaves and Native Americans "lousy" (i.e., "bad") ones both > : intellectually unsatisfying and more than a tad inflammatory. > : > : John Allen > : Geography, University of Connecticut > : > : -----Original Message----- > : From: Alderton, Philippa > : To: Exploration > : Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 6:45 PM > : Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 > : > : > : >If I remember my History correctly, Slavery had been an institution for > : >zillions of years, it was only in modern times that slaves were limited > to > : >black Africans. Think- how many Roman households boasted of having a > Greek > : >slave for the education of their children? How about the Pharoah's > slavery > : >of the Jews, which led to Moses and the exodus? Slaves of the Jews had to > : >be freed in a certain number of years-7? Any Muslim slave would be freed > if > : >he were converted to Islam. Also, during this period, consider the role > of > : >serfs. They were slaves in everything but name. I don't know why Isabella > : >sent them back, but it is certain that it wasn't a sensitivity, in the > : >period, to the concept of slavery. > : > > : >Incidently, are you all aware that the popularity of African slaves in > the > : >Americas was a result of the fact that > : >Native Americans made lousy slaves? > : > > : >phlip@morganco.net > : > > : >Never a horse that cain't be rode, > : >And never a rider that cain't be throwed. > : > > : >---------- > : >: > : >: > : >: Alison Sandman wrote: > : >: > : >: > There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In > : >16th-century > : >: > Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as > well > : >as > : >: > the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While I > : know > : >: > little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not new > in > : >the > : >: > 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own in > : the > : >: > 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and enslaved > : >: > prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does anyone > : know > : >: > how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th > : >centuries? > : >: > Thanks. > : >: > > : >: > Alison Sandman > : >: > > : >: > > : >: > : >: Alison, > : >: In restudying your message, you seem possibly to be saying that the > : >Spanish > : >: were in the business of slavery even prior to the discovery of the New > : >World, > : >: as were the Portiguese. Is this what you meant to say? If so, where did > : >the > : >: Spanish acquire the slaves? (Unless you mean to say that they bought > them > : >from > : >: the Portuguese.) > : >: It's an item that interests me because it is written that when > Columbus > : >: returned to Spain with slaves from the Caribbeean, Isabella was > : >displeased and > : >: ordered their return. > : >: Thank you, > : >: RB > : >: > : >: > : > > : > > : > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jan 23 01:00:38 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA27192 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:00:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA19196. Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:59:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin10 [131.155.70.127] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA19192 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:59:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.sota-oh.com [206.21.85.194] by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA23085 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:59:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_phlip ([206.244.123.9]) by mail.sota-oh.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-45112U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA188 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:56:26 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199801222324.SAA07233@daisy.snet.net> References: Conversation <199801222324.SAA07233@daisy.snet.net> with last message <199801222324.SAA07233@daisy.snet.net> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Exploration" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Alderton, Philippa" Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 18:59:44 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Forgive me Sir for not clarifying a bit. About the only thing more useless than a dead slave is a dead slave owner. If the remnants of a dead slave are useless, think how useless the remnants of the dead slaveowner, along with his funerary properties, are. phlip@morganco.net Never a horse that cain't be rode, And never a rider that cain't be throwed. ---------- : My apologies for the double posting of my response to P. Alderton's "Native : Americans made lousy slaves" contention. I access this forum both from my : University office and my home office and sometimes get confused about what : I've done where. : : We now have a reply to the first of my duplicate postings that, if I'm : summarizing correctly, argues that Native Americans made lousy slaves : because they died and couldn't be made into meat or leather. Such an : argument brings me to my knees in awe and I hereby capitulate. : : John Allen : Geography, UConn : : : ---------- : > From: Alderton, Philippa : > To: Exploration : > Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 : > Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 6:27 PM : > : > The reason the Native Americans made lousy slaves is because of the fact : of : > their high mortality rate. A dead cow can be eaten and/or made into : > leather, a dead slave must be disposed of in some out-of-common- view : > manner, and is useless for eating or leather, Hitler and other perverts : to : > the contrary. I do not retract my statement that Native Americans made : > lousy slaves for that very reason. A DEAD SLAVE IS USELESS! The Africans : > had a higher resistance to many of the European diseases, probably : because : > of more frequent contact with the Europeans, and also because of the : > winnowing factor of the inhumane conditions prevalent on many slave : ships. : > Furthermore, where would a Black African run to if he or she escaped? If : a : > Native American escaped, he or she at least had some idea of edible : plants : > and beasts over here, not to mention a familiarity with the local : cultures, : > including the native sign language. All in all, NaTIVE aMERICANS MADE : LOUSY : > SLAVES. : > : > phlip@morganco.net : > : > Never a horse that cain't be rode, : > And never a rider that cain't be throwed. : > : > ---------- : > : Regarding P. Alderton's concluding paragraph which says: "Incidently, : are : > : you all aware that the popularity of African slaves in the Americas was : a : > : result of the fact that Native Americans made lousy slaves?" -- : > : : > : I don't know where this version of "the truth" originated but it is : > patently : > : incorrect. The "popularity" of West Africans as slaves had absolutely : > : nothing to do with the quality of slaves available in the Americas. : > Slavery : > : was as much an institution in the pre-Columbian Americas as it was in : > other : > : parts of the world; Native Americans were certainly no strangers to : > systems : > : of slavery and were no "lousier" as slaves than any other people : subjected : > : to involuntary servitude. : > : : > : The "popularity" of the African slave trade with the Americas : originated : > : when Native Americans in the Caribbean and the mainland of Mexico and : > : Central America were (a) decimated [literally--in many areas : populations : > : were reduced to 10% of their pre-European contact levels] by the Old : World : > : diseases to which they had no built-in genetic resistance and (b) : reduced : > in : > : population by the harsh conditions of slavery in Spanish mines, : haciendas, : > : and plantations. Particularly in the Caribbean, where a plantation : economy : > : demanded heavy labor inputs, once the Native American population was : > either : > : gone or severely depleted, European colonists--as early as the : > 1520s--began : > : searching elsewhere for slaves and turned to the pre-existing West : African : > : trade. A century later, North American plantation owners also began to : > take : > : advantage of the West African trade in human lives and misery--not : because : > : they had tried to enslave Native Americans and found them to be "lousy" : > but : > : because, quite simply, it was much cheaper and easier to buy African : > slaves : > : in large numbers than it was to make the attempt to subjugate similar : > : numbers of Native Americans. The slave trade was well-structured by : this : > : time-- economically, socially, and technologically--and using African : > slaves : > : was simply more convenient. Interestingly, in the American Southeast, : > : members of the Five Civilized Nations (eg., the Cherokee) kept African : > : slaves as well, abandoning their older practices of enslaving : individuals : > : from neighboring tribes because it was cheaper and easier to purchase : > : African slaves. : > : : > : Alderton's statement repeats an unsupported claim most of us heard as : > early : > : as the third grade but there is no basis for it in fact. On an : emotional : > : level, I somehow find the assertion that Africans made "popular" (i.e., : > : "good") slaves and Native Americans "lousy" (i.e., "bad") ones both : > : intellectually unsatisfying and more than a tad inflammatory. : > : : > : John Allen : > : Geography, University of Connecticut : > : : > : -----Original Message----- : > : From: Alderton, Philippa : > : To: Exploration : > : Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 6:45 PM : > : Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 : > : : > : : > : >If I remember my History correctly, Slavery had been an institution : for : > : >zillions of years, it was only in modern times that slaves were : limited : > to : > : >black Africans. Think- how many Roman households boasted of having a : > Greek : > : >slave for the education of their children? How about the Pharoah's : > slavery : > : >of the Jews, which led to Moses and the exodus? Slaves of the Jews had : to : > : >be freed in a certain number of years-7? Any Muslim slave would be : freed : > if : > : >he were converted to Islam. Also, during this period, consider the : role : > of : > : >serfs. They were slaves in everything but name. I don't know why : Isabella : > : >sent them back, but it is certain that it wasn't a sensitivity, in the : > : >period, to the concept of slavery. : > : > : > : >Incidently, are you all aware that the popularity of African slaves in : > the : > : >Americas was a result of the fact that : > : >Native Americans made lousy slaves? : > : > : > : >phlip@morganco.net : > : > : > : >Never a horse that cain't be rode, : > : >And never a rider that cain't be throwed. : > : > : > : >---------- : > : >: : > : >: : > : >: Alison Sandman wrote: : > : >: : > : >: > There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In : > : >16th-century : > : >: > Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as : > well : > : >as : > : >: > the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While : I : > : know : > : >: > little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not : new : > in : > : >the : > : >: > 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own : in : > : the : > : >: > 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and : enslaved : > : >: > prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does : anyone : > : know : > : >: > how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th : > : >centuries? : > : >: > Thanks. : > : >: > : > : >: > Alison Sandman : > : >: > : > : >: > : > : >: : > : >: Alison, : > : >: In restudying your message, you seem possibly to be saying that the : > : >Spanish : > : >: were in the business of slavery even prior to the discovery of the : New : > : >World, : > : >: as were the Portiguese. Is this what you meant to say? If so, where : did : > : >the : > : >: Spanish acquire the slaves? (Unless you mean to say that they bought : > them : > : >from : > : >: the Portuguese.) : > : >: It's an item that interests me because it is written that when : > Columbus : > : >: returned to Spain with slaves from the Caribbeean, Isabella was : > : >displeased and : > : >: ordered their return. : > : >: Thank you, : > : >: RB : > : >: : > : >: : > : > : > : > : > : : > : From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jan 23 01:08:26 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA27232 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:08:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id BAA19209. Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:08:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA19205 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:08:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from moose.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA11686 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:08:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from ncia.net (ncia69n.ncia.net [207.141.176.69]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA22968 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:07:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34C7DF4F.569D4766@ncia.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:07:43 -0500 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I am most grateful to more people than it is feasible to answer individually for educating me about slavery earlier than 1493. Where else in the world but here may an individual pose a question of some historical interest and learn so much about it in so short a time? Of special interest is information that slavery existed in the New World before Columbus got to it. That one would never have occurred to me in a million years! Many thanks to each of you, Richard Burack From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jan 23 01:17:27 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA27259 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:17:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id BAA19231. Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:17:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA19227 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:17:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA02862 (SMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:16:55 +0100 (MET) From: aleister@bga.com Received: (qmail 17816 invoked from network); 23 Jan 1998 00:16:52 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 23 Jan 1998 00:16:52 -0000 Received: from bga.com (apm4-207.realtime.net [205.238.146.207]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA26133 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:16:49 -0600 Message-ID: <34C7E207.FBA7C6A9@bga.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:19:19 -0600 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] French Exploration References: <199801222324.SAA07233@daisy.snet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hello, I am new to the list and I would like to introduce myself. I am assistant project director for the La Salle Shipwreck Project that took place in Texas. Presently, I am researching a battle that took place in Tobago on Feb. 21, 1677 between the Dutch who had possession of the island and the French who wanted it back. I have a great deal of information but would like to read some of your insights. Thanks in advance Layne Hedrick La Salle Shipwreck Project aleister@bga.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jan 23 05:11:49 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA07863 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:11:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id FAA19433. Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:09:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin08 [131.155.70.71] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA19429 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:09:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from piva.ucs.mun.ca [134.153.2.63] by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA06390 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:09:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from beothuk.swgc.mun.ca (beothuk.swgc.mun.ca [198.165.18.1]) by piva.ucs.mun.ca (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19812 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:38:58 -0330 (NST) Received: (from olaf@localhost) by beothuk.swgc.mun.ca (8.8.4/8.8.3) id AAA15271; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:40:40 -0330 (NST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:40:40 -0330 (NST) From: Olaf Janzen To: discovery@win.tue.nl cc: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] French Exploration In-Reply-To: <34C7E207.FBA7C6A9@bga.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 aleister@bga.com wrote: > Hello, > > I am new to the list and I would like to introduce myself. I am > assistant project director for the La Salle Shipwreck Project that took > place in Texas. Presently, I am researching a battle that took place > in Tobago on Feb. 21, 1677 between the Dutch who had possession of the > island and the French who wanted it back. > > I have a great deal of information but would like to read some of your > insights. I'm sorry if I'm sounding a bit thick -- but insights into what? You haven't specified. Into the battle you are researching? From what you say, you must know a great deal more than we do. I'm not trying to be arcastic or anything -- but you really need to provide more precise direction on what you would like from the discussion group. Looking forward to hearing more (incidentally, I'm very impressed by what I've read about your project. Now *that* is something you might like to share with the group!) Olaf Janzen Corner Brook, NF > > Thanks in advance > > Layne Hedrick > La Salle Shipwreck Project > aleister@bga.com > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri Jan 23 05:20:14 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA07900 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:20:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id FAA19446. Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:20:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin10 [131.155.70.127] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA19442 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:20:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.snet.net [204.60.7.83] by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA24761 (ESMTP). Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:20:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from Absaroka.snet.net (ptnm00-sh4-port216.snet.net [204.60.41.216]) by daisy.snet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7/SNET-1.5) with ESMTP id XAA02863 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:19:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801230419.XAA02863@daisy.snet.net> From: "John L. Allen" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:18:47 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I have absolutely no idea what this means. But I suspect we're flogging a dead horse. ---------- > From: Alderton, Philippa > To: Exploration > Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 > Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 9:59 PM > > Forgive me Sir for not clarifying a bit. About the only thing more useless > than a dead slave is a dead slave owner. If the remnants of a dead slave > are useless, think how useless the remnants of the dead slaveowner, along > with his funerary properties, are. > > phlip@morganco.net > > Never a horse that cain't be rode, > And never a rider that cain't be throwed. > > ---------- > : My apologies for the double posting of my response to P. Alderton's > "Native > : Americans made lousy slaves" contention. I access this forum both from my > : University office and my home office and sometimes get confused about what > : I've done where. > : > : We now have a reply to the first of my duplicate postings that, if I'm > : summarizing correctly, argues that Native Americans made lousy slaves > : because they died and couldn't be made into meat or leather. Such an > : argument brings me to my knees in awe and I hereby capitulate. > : > : John Allen > : Geography, UConn > : > : > : ---------- > : > From: Alderton, Philippa > : > To: Exploration > : > Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 > : > Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 6:27 PM > : > > : > The reason the Native Americans made lousy slaves is because of the fact > : of > : > their high mortality rate. A dead cow can be eaten and/or made into > : > leather, a dead slave must be disposed of in some out-of-common- view > : > manner, and is useless for eating or leather, Hitler and other perverts > : to > : > the contrary. I do not retract my statement that Native Americans made > : > lousy slaves for that very reason. A DEAD SLAVE IS USELESS! The Africans > : > had a higher resistance to many of the European diseases, probably > : because > : > of more frequent contact with the Europeans, and also because of the > : > winnowing factor of the inhumane conditions prevalent on many slave > : ships. > : > Furthermore, where would a Black African run to if he or she escaped? If > : a > : > Native American escaped, he or she at least had some idea of edible > : plants > : > and beasts over here, not to mention a familiarity with the local > : cultures, > : > including the native sign language. All in all, NaTIVE aMERICANS MADE > : LOUSY > : > SLAVES. > : > > : > phlip@morganco.net > : > > : > Never a horse that cain't be rode, > : > And never a rider that cain't be throwed. > : > > : > ---------- > : > : Regarding P. Alderton's concluding paragraph which says: "Incidently, > : are > : > : you all aware that the popularity of African slaves in the Americas > was > : a > : > : result of the fact that Native Americans made lousy slaves?" -- > : > : > : > : I don't know where this version of "the truth" originated but it is > : > patently > : > : incorrect. The "popularity" of West Africans as slaves had absolutely > : > : nothing to do with the quality of slaves available in the Americas. > : > Slavery > : > : was as much an institution in the pre-Columbian Americas as it was in > : > other > : > : parts of the world; Native Americans were certainly no strangers to > : > systems > : > : of slavery and were no "lousier" as slaves than any other people > : subjected > : > : to involuntary servitude. > : > : > : > : The "popularity" of the African slave trade with the Americas > : originated > : > : when Native Americans in the Caribbean and the mainland of Mexico and > : > : Central America were (a) decimated [literally--in many areas > : populations > : > : were reduced to 10% of their pre-European contact levels] by the Old > : World > : > : diseases to which they had no built-in genetic resistance and (b) > : reduced > : > in > : > : population by the harsh conditions of slavery in Spanish mines, > : haciendas, > : > : and plantations. Particularly in the Caribbean, where a plantation > : economy > : > : demanded heavy labor inputs, once the Native American population was > : > either > : > : gone or severely depleted, European colonists--as early as the > : > 1520s--began > : > : searching elsewhere for slaves and turned to the pre-existing West > : African > : > : trade. A century later, North American plantation owners also began to > : > take > : > : advantage of the West African trade in human lives and misery--not > : because > : > : they had tried to enslave Native Americans and found them to be > "lousy" > : > but > : > : because, quite simply, it was much cheaper and easier to buy African > : > slaves > : > : in large numbers than it was to make the attempt to subjugate similar > : > : numbers of Native Americans. The slave trade was well-structured by > : this > : > : time-- economically, socially, and technologically--and using African > : > slaves > : > : was simply more convenient. Interestingly, in the American Southeast, > : > : members of the Five Civilized Nations (eg., the Cherokee) kept African > : > : slaves as well, abandoning their older practices of enslaving > : individuals > : > : from neighboring tribes because it was cheaper and easier to purchase > : > : African slaves. > : > : > : > : Alderton's statement repeats an unsupported claim most of us heard as > : > early > : > : as the third grade but there is no basis for it in fact. On an > : emotional > : > : level, I somehow find the assertion that Africans made "popular" > (i.e., > : > : "good") slaves and Native Americans "lousy" (i.e., "bad") ones both > : > : intellectually unsatisfying and more than a tad inflammatory. > : > : > : > : John Allen > : > : Geography, University of Connecticut > : > : > : > : -----Original Message----- > : > : From: Alderton, Philippa > : > : To: Exploration > : > : Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 6:45 PM > : > : Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 > : > : > : > : > : > : >If I remember my History correctly, Slavery had been an institution > : for > : > : >zillions of years, it was only in modern times that slaves were > : limited > : > to > : > : >black Africans. Think- how many Roman households boasted of having a > : > Greek > : > : >slave for the education of their children? How about the Pharoah's > : > slavery > : > : >of the Jews, which led to Moses and the exodus? Slaves of the Jews > had > : to > : > : >be freed in a certain number of years-7? Any Muslim slave would be > : freed > : > if > : > : >he were converted to Islam. Also, during this period, consider the > : role > : > of > : > : >serfs. They were slaves in everything but name. I don't know why > : Isabella > : > : >sent them back, but it is certain that it wasn't a sensitivity, in > the > : > : >period, to the concept of slavery. > : > : > > : > : >Incidently, are you all aware that the popularity of African slaves > in > : > the > : > : >Americas was a result of the fact that > : > : >Native Americans made lousy slaves? > : > : > > : > : >phlip@morganco.net > : > : > > : > : >Never a horse that cain't be rode, > : > : >And never a rider that cain't be throwed. > : > : > > : > : >---------- > : > : >: > : > : >: > : > : >: Alison Sandman wrote: > : > : >: > : > : >: > There was also a market for slaves in Spain at this time. In > : > : >16th-century > : > : >: > Seville many households had slaves (artisans and professionals as > : > well > : > : >as > : > : >: > the rich). Slaves also worked in the port and as sailors. While > : I > : > : know > : > : >: > little about the 15th century, I know that use of slaves was not > : new > : > in > : > : >the > : > : >: > 16th. While the Spanish were making slaving voyages of their own > : in > : > : the > : > : >: > 15th century, they also bought some from the Portuguese, and > : enslaved > : > : >: > prisoners of war and the people of the Canary Islands. Does > : anyone > : > : know > : > : >: > how common slavery was in the rest of Europe in the 15th/16th > : > : >centuries? > : > : >: > Thanks. > : > : >: > > : > : >: > Alison Sandman > : > : >: > > : > : >: > > : > : >: > : > : >: Alison, > : > : >: In restudying your message, you seem possibly to be saying that > the > : > : >Spanish > : > : >: were in the business of slavery even prior to the discovery of the > : New > : > : >World, > : > : >: as were the Portiguese. Is this what you meant to say? If so, where > : did > : > : >the > : > : >: Spanish acquire the slaves? (Unless you mean to say that they > bought > : > them > : > : >from > : > : >: the Portuguese.) > : > : >: It's an item that interests me because it is written that when > : > Columbus > : > : >: returned to Spain with slaves from the Caribbeean, Isabella was > : > : >displeased and > : > : >: ordered their return. > : > : >: Thank you, > : > : >: RB > : > : >: > : > : >: > : > : > > : > : > > : > : > : > > : > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 22 15:51:23 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA22452 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:51:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA17984. Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:50:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA17980 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:50:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA22439 (ESMTP). Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:50:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-186.Minn.Net [204.157.201.186]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA25799 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:50:09 -0600 Message-ID: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: [EXP] Peary reinstated by GBWR? Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 09:46:28 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I have just heard from a friend that the Guinness Book of World Records is planning, in an upcoming edition, to reinstate Robert E. Peary's claim to have reached the North Pole on the basis of the photogrammetric evidence that appeared in the National Geographic (December 1989). If you are as shocked at this possibility as I am, you may register your displeasure to: webmaster@guinnessworlds.com Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat Jan 24 15:40:47 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA01586 (ESMTP). Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:40:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA22344. Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:36:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA22340 (ESMTP). Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:36:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA01572 (ESMTP). Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:36:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from heabppp44.helsingborg.se (heabppp44.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.204]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id PAA24481 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:36:06 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <34CA79DE.8D9@helsingborg.se> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:31:42 -0800 From: Bertil Haggman Organization: CRG X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re: The Historical Encyclopedia of World Slavery References: <34AC479C.60DD@helsingborg.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR For those interested in slave trade before 1493 I am taking the liberty of placing the presentation of the HEWS on this list. It has nothing to do with the fact that I wrote a few short articles for HEWS on Danish and Swedish slavetrade. Greetings Bertil Haggman > The Historical Encyclopedia of World Slavery > VOLUMES I & II > Junius P. Rodriguez, General Editor > > -------------------------------------------- > Publisher: ABC-CLIO, December 1997 ca. 730p. > ISBN 0-87436-885-5 Item No. WB-1700, 8.5x11, > $150.00 > > The first work of its kind to document slavery > on a global scale. _The Historical Encyclopedia of > World Slavery_ is a two-volume set that provides > an in-depth portrayal of human bondage and the > slave trade from ancient times to the present. > The first work of its kind to document slavery > on a global scale, this work is an essential > addition to every reference collection. > Academic, high school, and public libraries, > as well as genealogists, historical societies, > and museum reference collections, > will find an invaluable resource in this > informative and compelling work. > > The encyclopedia contains 100 illustrations, > with maps accompanying core essays involving > specific geographic locations. Successive > civilizations are portrayed as they sought > to dominate each other for riches and glory, > the conquered often being forced into slavery > by their aggressors. This encyclopedia delves > into the practice of forced labor in the great > empires and kingdoms of China, Persia, South > America, India, and others. Oppression by the > ruling classes of the lower classes is > chronicled in Japanese serfdom and the European > manor system. Western expansion prospered on a > foundation of institutionalized slavery, > causing the 400-year African Diaspora. > (Don't agree myself concerning the > description in the last line. Western > expansion was based on hard work, protestant > belief that making money was to honour God, > and European tradition of migration, > note by Bertil Haggman). > > Slavery in world history is chronicled via > such in-depth topics as Slavery in the Bible, > Buddhism and Slavery, Slave Folklore, > Historiography of Slavery, Japanese > Enslavement of Koreans, Plato's Laws > and Slavery, and Women and Slavery. > > The encyclopedia draws upon the perspectives > of renowned philosophers and political leaders, > including Plato and Aristotle. > Biographies portray the lives of notable > figures, for example, the remarkable life of > the fugitive slave, nurse, spy, and > abolitionist Harriet Tubman (1820-1913); > Mali's ninth ruler, Mansa Musa (d. 1337); > and the early ruler of Kievan Russia, > Iaroslav the Wise (fl. 1016-1054). > > This impressive work presents 700 topics > of world slavery in 500- to 1,500-word > entries that are extensively cross-referenced > with bibliographical citations for further research. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun Jan 25 10:33:12 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA17804 (ESMTP). Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:33:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id KAA23404. Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:29:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA23400 (ESMTP). Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:29:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA19258 (ESMTP). Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:29:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from heabppp76.helsingborg.se (heabppp76.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.231]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id KAA07695 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:29:25 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <34CB833D.4EF1@helsingborg.se> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:23:57 -0800 From: Bertil Haggman Organization: CRG X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 References: Conversation <885462881.2011263.0@griffin-crofts.demon.co.uk> with last message <885462881.2011263.0@griffin-crofts.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Keith Pickering wrote: > There are a number of letters and proclamations by the Spanish crown in > this era specifically requiring good treatment of Indians (which were > universally ignored by the Spanish colonists). The importation of African > slaves to America started when the Indian population had become so depleted > (by disease and overwork) that there were no longer enough people to work > the fields and mines. A contributing fact to the starting of import of African slaves was that the Catholic church started to react against the brutal treatment by Spaniards of the Native American population. A solution to the problem was to import black slaves to do the hard manual work thus opening the road for a less brutal treatment of the Native Americans. Assessing the human value of a Native American was an intellectual problem which engaged a large number of theologians, jurists and philosophers at the time. It was not until 1550, I believe, that the conclusion was made that the Native Americans were humans, but morally and otherwise not fully developed. If I remember correctly it was Bartolome de las Casas ("The Apostle of the Indians") (1474 - 1566) who achieved a change in the Spanish policy towards the Native Americans. Greetings Bertil Haggman From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 26 02:20:39 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id CAA23335 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:20:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id CAA24420. Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:18:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id CAA24416 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:18:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.sota-oh.com [206.21.85.194] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id CAA23290 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:18:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from PC_phlip ([206.244.123.5]) by mail.sota-oh.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-45112U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA345 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:37:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Conversation with last message X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Exploration" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Alderton, Philippa" Subject: [EXP] Dead Slaves Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 11:40:19 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Since J. Allen seems to take exception to my contention that dead slaves make lousy slaves, I am attempting to see things from his point of view, and have done a bit of research in my University library, and have come up with the TOP TEN USES FOR DEAD SLAVES. #10. Make outstanding companions for necrophiliac slave owners. #9.Make very good anchors when water-logged, at least until the fish remove the ballast. #8. Good doorstop. #7. Excellent babysitter for dead babies. When posed before rigor mortis sets in: #6. Make pretty good scarecrows until they decompose, as they don't object to rectal insertion of a pole. #5. Make good ironing boards. #4. Make a pretty good coat and hat rack. #3. Put them out in the driveway and let your visitors tie their horses to them. #2. Put them in your tobacco store and let them sell cigars. AND THE NUMBER ONE USE FOR DEAD SLAVES ! Put them behind the podium in a lecture hall and let them teach geography. No one will notice a difference. phlip@morganco.net Them as can, does. Them as can't, teaches. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 26 04:22:15 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA02416 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:22:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA24510. Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:18:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA24506 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:18:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from piva.ucs.mun.ca [134.153.2.63] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA04063 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:18:39 +0100 (MET) Received: from beothuk.swgc.mun.ca (beothuk.swgc.mun.ca [198.165.18.1]) by piva.ucs.mun.ca (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA31053 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:48:34 -0330 (NST) Received: (from olaf@localhost) by beothuk.swgc.mun.ca (8.8.4/8.8.3) id XAA12050; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:50:20 -0330 (NST) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:50:20 -0330 (NST) From: Olaf Janzen To: discovery@win.tue.nl cc: Exploration Subject: Re: [EXP] Dead Slaves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR This kind of nonsense has no place on a discussion group that I joined -- and which until now has been used -- for collegial discussion. If this is the sort of thing that this discussion group will condone, I see no purpose in continuing my subscription. I'd like to see what others think, though, before I go any further. I think Ms Alderton owes us all an apology, but especially John Allen. Olaf Janzen Corner Brook, Newfoundland On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Alderton, Philippa wrote: > Since J. Allen seems to take exception to my contention that dead slaves > make lousy slaves, I am attempting to see things from his point of view, > and have done a bit of research in my University library, and have come up > with the > > TOP TEN USES FOR DEAD SLAVES. > > #10. Make outstanding companions for necrophiliac slave owners. > > #9.Make very good anchors when water-logged, at least until the fish remove > the ballast. > > #8. Good doorstop. > > #7. Excellent babysitter for dead babies. > > When posed before rigor mortis sets in: > > #6. Make pretty good scarecrows until they decompose, as they don't object > to rectal insertion of a pole. > > #5. Make good ironing boards. > > #4. Make a pretty good coat and hat rack. > > #3. Put them out in the driveway and let your visitors tie their horses to > them. > > #2. Put them in your tobacco store and let them sell cigars. > > AND THE NUMBER ONE USE FOR DEAD SLAVES ! > > Put them behind the podium in a lecture hall and let them teach geography. > No one will notice a difference. > > phlip@morganco.net > > Them as can, does. > Them as can't, teaches. > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 26 04:35:48 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA02457 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:35:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA24525. Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:34:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA24521 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:34:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from pm01sm.pmm.mci.net [208.159.126.150] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA10301 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:34:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from earth (usr46-dialup11.mix2.Boston.mci.net) by PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27033) with ESMTP id <0END00BJTGS5LG@PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for discovery@win.tue.nl; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:38:31 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:32:51 -0500 From: Thomes Suarez Subject: Re: [EXP] Dead Slaves To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-id: <0END00BJUGS5LG@PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Olaf Janzen wrote : <<>> I write : Amen. The whole episode was pathetic, ignorant, and disgusting. I feel like washing out my hard drive with antiseptic. ___________________________ Thomas Suarez suarez@mci2000.com tel (914) 741-6155 fax (914) 741-6156 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 26 17:00:16 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA11847 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:00:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA25828. Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:54:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA25824 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:54:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA15902 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:53:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from aagaard01.u.washington.edu (wolfram@aagaard01.u.washington.edu [140.142.14.3]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id HAA15602 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:53:47 -0800 Received: from localhost (wolfram@localhost) by aagaard01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id HAA29680 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:53:47 -0800 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:53:46 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Buell" To: Exploration Subject: Re: [EXP] Dead Slaves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I second that motion! J. Buell On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Olaf Janzen wrote: > > This kind of nonsense has no place on a discussion group that I joined -- > and which until now has been used -- for collegial discussion. If this is > the sort of thing that this discussion group will condone, I see no > purpose in continuing my subscription. I'd like to see what others think, > though, before I go any further. > > I think Ms Alderton owes us all an apology, but especially John Allen. > > Olaf Janzen > Corner Brook, Newfoundland > > On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Alderton, Philippa wrote: > > > Since J. Allen seems to take exception to my contention that dead slaves > > make lousy slaves, I am attempting to see things from his point of view, > > and have done a bit of research in my University library, and have come up > > with the > > > > TOP TEN USES FOR DEAD SLAVES. > > > > #10. Make outstanding companions for necrophiliac slave owners. > > > > #9.Make very good anchors when water-logged, at least until the fish remove > > the ballast. > > > > #8. Good doorstop. > > > > #7. Excellent babysitter for dead babies. > > > > When posed before rigor mortis sets in: > > > > #6. Make pretty good scarecrows until they decompose, as they don't object > > to rectal insertion of a pole. > > > > #5. Make good ironing boards. > > > > #4. Make a pretty good coat and hat rack. > > > > #3. Put them out in the driveway and let your visitors tie their horses to > > them. > > > > #2. Put them in your tobacco store and let them sell cigars. > > > > AND THE NUMBER ONE USE FOR DEAD SLAVES ! > > > > Put them behind the podium in a lecture hall and let them teach geography. > > No one will notice a difference. > > > > phlip@morganco.net > > > > Them as can, does. > > Them as can't, teaches. > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 26 19:20:11 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA13159 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:20:10 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA26175. Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:19:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA26171 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:19:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from bbs.doruk.com.tr [195.174.34.127] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA14745 (SMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:18:58 +0100 (MET) From: janissary To: HUMOR@uga.cc.uga.edu Cc: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Uses for dead slaves (insulting to geographers; poss. racist) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 19:37:42 Comment: Turkce karekter filtresinden gecirildi. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <9801261939.aa08569@bbs.doruk.com.tr> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The following little gem is taken VERBATIM from a normally staid and sedate list , which discusses the really breathtaking issues of geography and voyages of discovery and where a wonderful flame war is in progress. Only the names and addresses have been changed to protect the (not so) innocent. === BEGIN QUOTE ============================================================= From: "Xyzzyxyz, Zyxyzzyxy" Subject: [EXP] Dead Slaves Since X. Yzzyx seems to take exception to my contention that dead slaves make lousy slaves, I am attempting to see things from his point of view, and have done a bit of research in my University library, and have come up with the TOP TEN USES FOR DEAD SLAVES. #10. Make outstanding companions for necrophiliac slave owners. #9.Make very good anchors when water-logged, at least until the fish remove the ballast. #8. Good doorstop. #7. Excellent babysitter for dead babies. When posed before rigor mortis sets in: #6. Make pretty good scarecrows until they decompose, as they don't object to rectal insertion of a pole. #5. Make good ironing boards. #4. Make a pretty good coat and hat rack. #3. Put them out in the driveway and let your visitors tie their horses to them. #2. Put them in your tobacco store and let them sell cigars. AND THE NUMBER ONE USE FOR DEAD SLAVES ! Put them behind the podium in a lecture hall and let them teach geography. No one will notice a difference. Them as can, does. Them as can't, teaches. =============================================================== END QUOTE === To which I can only add, "Them as can't teach, teaches teachers". This is the same list BTW in which it was recently asserted (in the same thread) that the chief difference between a dead slave and a dead horse was that you could eat a dead horse. As Escoffier (who himself had to contend with dead horses and did so magnificently) would say, "Bon appetit"! --- Bob, Reporting to you from a bar room brawl on the global village green. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon Jan 26 20:38:47 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA13635 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:38:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA26241. Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:37:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA26237 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:37:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA15536 (ESMTP). Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:37:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from aagaard02.u.washington.edu (wolfram@aagaard02.u.washington.edu [140.142.14.4]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id LAA30100; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:37:07 -0800 Received: from localhost (wolfram@localhost) by aagaard02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id LAA22644; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:37:07 -0800 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:37:06 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Buell" To: janissary cc: HUMOR@uga.cc.uga.edu, discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Uses for dead slaves (insulting to geographers; poss. racist) In-Reply-To: <9801261939.aa08569@bbs.doruk.com.tr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Why not let this ugly thing die?!?? Lets move on already! J. Buell On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, janissary wrote: > The following little gem is taken VERBATIM from a normally staid > and sedate list , which discusses the really > breathtaking issues of geography and voyages of discovery and where > a wonderful flame war is in progress. > > Only the names and addresses have been changed to protect the (not > so) innocent. > > === BEGIN QUOTE ============================================================= > From: "Xyzzyxyz, Zyxyzzyxy" > Subject: [EXP] Dead Slaves > > Since X. Yzzyx seems to take exception to my contention that > dead slaves make lousy slaves, I am attempting to see things from > his point of view, and have done a bit of research in my University > library, and have come up with the > > TOP TEN USES FOR DEAD SLAVES. > > #10. Make outstanding companions for necrophiliac slave owners. > > #9.Make very good anchors when water-logged, at least until the fish > remove the ballast. > > #8. Good doorstop. > > #7. Excellent babysitter for dead babies. > > When posed before rigor mortis sets in: > > #6. Make pretty good scarecrows until they decompose, as they don't > object to rectal insertion of a pole. > > #5. Make good ironing boards. > > #4. Make a pretty good coat and hat rack. > > #3. Put them out in the driveway and let your visitors tie their > horses to them. > > #2. Put them in your tobacco store and let them sell cigars. > > AND THE NUMBER ONE USE FOR DEAD SLAVES ! > > Put them behind the podium in a lecture hall and let them teach > geography. > > No one will notice a difference. > > > > Them as can, does. > Them as can't, teaches. > =============================================================== END QUOTE === > > To which I can only add, "Them as can't teach, teaches teachers". > > This is the same list BTW in which it was recently asserted (in the > same thread) that the chief difference between a dead slave and a > dead horse was that you could eat a dead horse. > > As Escoffier (who himself had to contend with dead horses and did > so magnificently) would say, "Bon appetit"! > > --- Bob, Reporting to you from a bar room brawl on the global village green. > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Jan 27 18:22:25 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA02972 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:22:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA28581. Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:21:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA28577 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:20:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery id SAA19349. Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:20:56 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199801271720.SAA19349@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] help wanted To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:20:55 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hey, I'm doing reserach on Belgian travellers in the Pacific. Herefore I want to contact Mr Paul De Deckker, who was (is?) Senior Lecturer in Sociology at the university of Auckland in the eighties. I think he can help me with my study. Can someone help me? Johan Deckers pub00721@innet.be ---------------------------------------------------------------------- list manager's remark: This message was original rejected by majordomo because its title started with 'help'. As the '[EXP]' is now prepended, I do not think replies will cause any problems. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html I disagree with everything you say, but I would fight to the death for your right to say it. -- Voltaire From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jan 28 00:00:44 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA06098 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:00:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id XAA29131. Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:59:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA29127 (ESMTP). Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:59:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from sparky.kainos.com [193.195.13.42] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA06064 (SMTP). Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:59:14 +0100 (MET) From: Seamus_M._Greene@kainos.com Received: from necros.kainos.com (necros.kainos.com [193.195.13.45]) by sparky.kainos.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA03170 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:33:41 GMT Received: by necros.kainos.com(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) id 80256599.0077E43C ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:49:32 +0000 X-Lotus-FromDomain: KAINOS To: discovery@win.tue.nl Message-ID: <80256598.006173DD.00@necros.kainos.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:48:37 +0000 Subject: Re: [EXP] Dead Slaves Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Yes it was distasteful, but please - is it really worth dwelling on with yet another flame thread? Shay Greene s.greene@kainos.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jan 28 00:11:05 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA06240 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:11:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA29147. Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:10:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA29143 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:10:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from aloha.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.134] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA00693 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:10:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (from sks9@localhost) by aloha.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17785 for discovery@win.tue.nl; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:10:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 18:10:44 EST From: Sarah K Schneewind To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:55:48 -0500 Message-ID: Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR a very minor point, but as I understand it "decimation" was the killing of one in ten, not the reduction of a population to 10%. Sarah Schneewind From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jan 28 04:26:28 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA17187 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 04:26:27 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA29484. Wed, 28 Jan 1998 04:25:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA29480 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 04:25:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from bbs.doruk.com.tr [195.174.34.127] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA17183 (SMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 04:25:11 +0100 (MET) From: janissary To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Slavery before 1493 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 05:29:25 In-Reply-To: Sarah K Schneewind Comment: Turkce karekter filtresinden gecirildi. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <9801280524.aa10884@bbs.doruk.com.tr> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Sarah K Schneewind said: >a very minor point, but as I understand it "decimation" was the killing >of one in ten, not the reduction of a population to 10%. >Sarah Schneewind Yes and no. According to Webster's Third International, decimate 1. to select by lot and kill every tenth man of; 2a. to take a tenth of: tax to the amount of one-tenth; 2b1. to take a tenth part of, 2b2. to take every tenth one of So far so good. However the word seems to have acquired a third meaning as well: 3. to destroy a considerable part of: reduce to the point of almost complete extermination : reduce greatly This third meaning seems illogical to me too (I studied Latin in highschool and college) and the two that the dictionary gives point out the absurdity; but this usage is quite common nowadays, even by very respected writers and publications. It's not such a minor point--especially if you're one of the population undergoing decimation. Bye for now, Bob Bragner From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jan 28 16:22:00 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA23699 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:22:00 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA00827. Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:17:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA00823 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:17:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from mail.ids.pl [195.117.3.131] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA04149 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:17:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from robertsz (term4.waw.ids.edu.pl [148.81.58.132]) by idsserv.waw.ids.edu.pl (8.8.8/8.8.8/rchk1.19) with SMTP id QAA05123 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:09:15 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980128160947.0079d250@mail.ids.pl> X-Sender: robosz@mail.ids.pl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:09:47 +0100 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Robert Szymczak Subject: [EXP] lousy Native Americans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR John Allen said: >Alderton's statement repeats an unsupported claim most of us heard as early >as the third grade but there is no basis for it in fact. On an emotional >level, I somehow find the assertion that Africans made "popular" (i.e., >"good") slaves and Native Americans "lousy" (i.e., "bad") ones both >intellectually unsatisfying and more than a tad inflammatory. > Alderton's statement is, I think, an echo of science discurssion in early anthropology, especially in 18th c. In tenth edition of "Systema Naturae" (1758) Linnaeus included the final version of his qualification of human specie. Look at the following abreviation of the qualification: European - white, muscular, most intelligent, ruled by religious custom. African - black, phlegmatic, slothful, careless, ruled by authority (!). American - red, choleric, thick, obstinate, free (!), ruled by custom. Above qualification suggested implicite that African can be easily ruled by authority of white man, but "free" American cannot (or not so easy). Another but quite similiar theory represented de Buffon. He desribed America as degenerated continent with animals and plants generally smaller and weaker than in Europe. In his "Histoire naturele" (18th v.) he wrote: "a wild man (of America - R.S.) is weak and he has small gender organs... he is less strong (than Europeans - R.S.), he is less sensitive and even more cowardly...", etc., etc. He extended the theory not only to native Americans, but to "transplanted" ones, either. He assumed the civilization of settlers in North America is not so high-level and sophisticated as Europe and that the settlers will never achieve this level. De Buffon's big antagonist was governor of Virginia and future US president Thomas Jefferson. He disputed with de Buffon in his "Notes on The State of Virginia". Short history of the early antropology you can find in a brilliant article ”The Wild Man Pedigree: Scientific Method and Racial Antropology” by J. G. Burke (in ”The Wild Man Within an Image in Western Thought from the Renaissance to Romanticism”, ed. E. Dudley and M. Novak, Pittsburgh 1972). Best wishes, Robert Szymczak Warsaw, Poland From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed Jan 28 20:16:11 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA26443 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:16:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA01280. Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:14:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA01276 (ESMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:14:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from uconnvm.uconn.edu [137.99.26.3] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA08632 (SMTP). Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:14:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from jlallen.geog.uconn.edu by UConnVM.UConn.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 28 Jan 98 14:14:32 EST From: "John L. Allen" To: "Exploration" Subject: [EXP] Fw: CFP: 1998 Atlantic History Seminar Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:59:38 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd2c1e$e1e898c0$17286389@jlallen.geog.uconn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The attached is of probable interest to members of the discussion group. "ASEH" is a discussion group devoted to environmental history. John Allen Geography, UConn -----Original Message----- From: H-ASEH To: Multiple recipients of list H-ASEH Date: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 12:00 PM Subject: CFP: 1998 Atlantic History Seminar >INTERNATIONAL SEMINAR ON THE HISTORY OF THE ATLANTIC WORLD, 1500-1800 > >Theme for 1998: "Cultural Encounters in Atlantic Societies, 1500-1800" > >Applications are invited for participation in the third annual seminar, to >meet for approximately ten days at Harvard University in August 1998. >Participants, for whom travel and accommodation will be provided, must be >recent recipients of the Ph.D. or its equivalent or advanced doctoral >students engaged in creative research on aspects of Atlantic history. >Members of the Seminar will be drawn from the nations of Western Europe, >Africa, and Latin America, to be joined by U.S. and Canadian scholars who >are also at an early stage of their careers, for presentation of work in >progress, discussions of the theme of the Seminar, and exchange of views >with senior scholars. It is hoped that some of the expenses of the >American participants will be defrayed by their own universities. > >The aim is to advance the scholarship of young historians of many nations >interested in aspects of Atlantic history in the formative years; to help >create an international community of scholars familiar with approaches, >archives, and intellectual traditions different from their own; and >ultimately to further international understanding. > >The specific theme of the Seminar changes each year. The theme for 1998 >will be "Cultural Encounters in Atlantic Societies, 1500-1800." Work in >progress on cultural relations among different peoples in all the Atlantic >regions--races, nationalities, and ethnic, regional, religious, and >linguistic groups--will be considered. Encounters between European and >non-European cultures will be especially relevant, and comparative studies >will be welcome. > >The Seminar, under the auspices of the Charles Warren Center for >Studies in >American History and supported by the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, is >directed by Professor Bernard Bailyn. > >For application forms, to be returned by April 15, 1998, or information, >please contact Pat Denault, Administrator, International Seminar, Robinson >Hall, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA 02138. Telephone: 617-496-3066; >Fax: 617-496-8869; E-mail: atlantic@fas.harvard.edu. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 29 17:25:13 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA16558 (ESMTP). Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:25:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id RAA03802. Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:21:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA03798 (ESMTP). Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:21:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from firewall-user@gauntlet.newberry.org [208.194.21.2] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA11802 (ESMTP). Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:21:50 +0100 (MET) Received: by gauntlet.newberry.org; id KAA26492; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown(206.137.242.175) by gauntlet.newberry.org via smap (3.2) id xma026490; Thu, 29 Jan 98 10:21:46 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980129102139.0068cdfc@natalie.newberry.org> X-Sender: karrowr@natalie.newberry.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:21:39 -0600 To: "Exploration" From: Robert Karrow Subject: [EXP] Forthcoming Icelandic movie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The tiny but extremely creative Icelandic film industry is working on a documentary about their discovery of America. See the "Daily News From Iceland" page published by Icelandic Review: http://www.centrum.is/icerev/daily1.html ---------------------------------------- Robert W. Karrow, Jr. Administrative Curator of Special Collections and Curator of Maps The Newberry Library 60 West Walton Street Chicago, Illinois 60610-3380 e-mail: KarrowR@newberry.org (312) 255-3554 FAX: -3513 Check Newberry website at www.newberry.org From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu Jan 29 18:05:02 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA16768 (ESMTP). Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:05:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA03841. Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:03:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA03837 (ESMTP). Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:03:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id SAA16545. Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:03:28 +0100 (MET) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199801291703.SAA16545@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Forthcoming Icelandic movie To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:03:27 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980129102139.0068cdfc@natalie.newberry.org> from "Robert Karrow" at Jan 29, 98 10:21:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: O Robert Karrow wrote: > > The tiny but extremely creative Icelandic film industry is working on a > documentary about their discovery of America. See the "Daily News From > Iceland" page published by Icelandic Review: > http://www.centrum.is/icerev/daily1.html If I read this short piece, it seems that the film will mainly be based on Eirik's Saga, where most historians now believe that Graenlendinga Saga gives a more reliable account of the early Vinland voyages. Leif gets all honor. If I read this I'm afraid Bjarni Herjulfsson will not get any notice at all... -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html I disagree with everything you say, but I would fight to the death for your right to say it. -- Voltaire From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue Feb 3 17:17:10 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA23263 (ESMTP). Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:17:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id RAA15019. Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:16:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA15015 (ESMTP). Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:15:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from inet.lasierra.edu [192.156.214.14] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA07703 (ESMTP). Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:15:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from [206.17.219.14] (jackson.lib.lasierra.edu [206.17.219.14]) by inet.lasierra.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA16107 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:18:43 -0800 X-Sender: tzbarasc@inet.lasierra.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802031016.LAA13991@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:17:23 -0800 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: [EXP] diseases and indians Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Andre Engels relayed the followinuestion: >Does anyone have more information and/or a pointer to a website, >regarding the diseases brought to America by the Spanish? Website, no. Books, now books are another matter. Hans Zinnser, RATS, LICE, AND HISTORY William McNeill, PLAGUES AND PEOPLES Somebody recently wrote a very good book called (I think) ECOLOGICAL IMPERIALISM (or maybe BIOLOGICAL IMPERIALISM). Tony Z Special Collections Librarian & Archivist E-mail: tzbarasc@lasierra.edu La Sierra University Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!"