From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 1 17:17:20 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA15823 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 17:17:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id RAA12608. Fri, 1 May 1998 17:11:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA12599 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 17:11:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay-0.ziplink.net [206.15.168.49] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA15807 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 17:11:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from LOCALNAME (nyc-ip-1-75.ziplink.net [208.196.104.75]) by ziplink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16551 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.16.19980501090849.405f74c8@pop3.ziplink.net> X-Sender: emerald@pop3.ziplink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (16) Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:08:49 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Michael J. Mooney" Subject: [EXP] [M] Serendipitous Discoveries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hi, I'm looking for examples of serendipitous discoveries through history... One such event leaps to mind, of course...Columbus and the New World. Surely there have been others... Yes? Thanks. M i k e = = = = = MICHAEL J. MOONEY 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 1 17:17:25 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA15828 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 17:17:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id RAA12609. Fri, 1 May 1998 17:12:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA12604 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 17:11:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay-0.ziplink.net [206.15.168.49] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA00025 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 17:11:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from LOCALNAME (nyc-ip-1-75.ziplink.net [208.196.104.75]) by ziplink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16559 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.16.19980501091220.405f9538@pop3.ziplink.net> X-Sender: emerald@pop3.ziplink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (16) Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:12:20 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Michael J. Mooney" Subject: [EXP] [M] Serendip in Myth and Reality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hi, It's been said that Serendip existed as a geographical entity that eventually became Ceylon...and finally Sri Lanka... Does anyone know the story of "serendip"...how it came to be called this. Any "serendipitous takeoffs" on this are most welcomed...:-). Thanks. M i k e = = = = = MICHAEL J. MOONEY 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 1 19:14:04 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA16221 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 19:14:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA12707. Fri, 1 May 1998 19:11:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin08 [131.155.70.71] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA12703 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 19:11:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailgate22-hme0.a001.sprintmail.com [205.137.196.54] by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA11320 (SMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 19:11:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mailgate22.a001.sprintmail.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA11408; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:11:08 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sprintmail.com Received: from unknown(168.191.227.69) by mailfep4-hme1 via dsmap-1.22 id Q_10.1.1.10/Q_1225_1_354a01fe; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:10:22 -0700 Message-ID: <001f01bd7522$017dc740$45e3bfa8@chono> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Serendip in Myth and Reality Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:55:53 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Serendip is a corruption of the Sanskrit name for Ceylon, "golden continent," I think. See the detailed and interesting discussion in Donald Lach, Asian in the Making of Europe, volume 2, I think. Lach quotes the literature. -----Original Message----- From: Michael J. Mooney To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 8:35 AM Subject: [EXP] [M] Serendip in Myth and Reality >Hi, > >It's been said that Serendip existed as a geographical entity that >eventually became Ceylon...and finally Sri Lanka... > >Does anyone know the story of "serendip"...how it came to be called this. >Any "serendipitous takeoffs" on this are most welcomed...:-). Thanks. > >M i k e > >= = = = = > > MICHAEL J. MOONEY > 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA > FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) > Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net > Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 1 19:24:28 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA16260 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 19:24:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA12719. Fri, 1 May 1998 19:23:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin08 [131.155.70.71] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA12715 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 19:23:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24] by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA11341 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 19:23:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from aagaard02.u.washington.edu (wolfram@aagaard02.u.washington.edu [140.142.14.4]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id KAA10214 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:23:02 -0700 Received: from localhost (wolfram@localhost) by aagaard02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id KAA24744 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:23:02 -0700 Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:23:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Buell" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Serendipitous Discoveries In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.19980501090849.405f74c8@pop3.ziplink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The discovery of Brazil by the Portuguese comes to mind... Cabral, on the first commercial voyage to India following Vasco Da Gama's voyages, in his attempt to reach India and clear the Cape of Good Hope stood out to sea and bumped into Brazil in 1500. A ship was dispatched back to Portugal and the rest as they say, is history.... J. Buell > Hi, > > I'm looking for examples of serendipitous discoveries through history... > > One such event leaps to mind, of course...Columbus and the New World. > Surely there have been others... Yes? Thanks. > > M i k e > > = = = = = > > MICHAEL J. MOONEY > 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA > FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) > Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net > Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 1 19:51:54 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA16431 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 19:51:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA12752. Fri, 1 May 1998 19:49:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA12747 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 19:49:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA14442 (SMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 19:49:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 47476 invoked from network); 1 May 1998 17:49:28 -0000 Received: from apm7-196.realtime.net (HELO bga.com) (204.96.0.196) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 1 May 1998 17:49:28 -0000 Message-ID: <354A27AC.AD3E3894@bga.com> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:51:08 -0700 From: Layne Hedrick X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] French Exploration in Carribean References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I would like to open up discussions on the involvement of the French in Caribbean exploration. Does anyone have any information that they would like to share. -- Layne Hedrick (512) 475-4601 Texas Historical Commission aleister@bga.com La Salle Shipwreck Project Assistant Project Director http://www.thc.state.tx.us/belle/index.html Kingstown Shipwreck Project http://www.maritimehistory.org/StVincent/intro.html Sadanna Island Shipwreck Project http://www.adventurecorps.com/inaegypt.html From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 1 20:21:45 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA16662 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 20:21:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA12793. Fri, 1 May 1998 20:18:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA12789 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 20:18:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us [146.115.194.10] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA27475 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 20:18:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [146.115.194.168] by bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Fri, 1 May 1998 14:18:44 -0400 X-Sender: reaston@bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:18:46 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: reaston@bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us (Robert W. Easton) Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Serendipitous Discoveries Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR When he sailed within sight of the eastern coast of (what is now) Canada, Bjarni Herjolfsson was on his way to Greenland, not North America. He may not have known where he was, but he did know where he wasn't, i.e. Greenland (Jones, 298). Question of the day: Who said: "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"? Robert W. Easton - Bancroft School 110 Shore Drive Worcester, MA USA 01605 reaston@bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 1 20:26:55 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA16686 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 20:26:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA12814. Fri, 1 May 1998 20:23:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA12810 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 20:23:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id UAA00862. Fri, 1 May 1998 20:23:29 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199805011823.UAA00862@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] French Exploration in Carribean To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 20:23:28 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <354A27AC.AD3E3894@bga.com> from "Layne Hedrick" at May 1, 98 12:51:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Layne Hedrick wrote: > I would like to open up discussions on the involvement of the French in > Caribbean exploration. Does anyone have > any information that they would like to share. The Caribbean exploration can be regarded a completely Spanish undertaking. The only French voyage I can remember that might be worthwhile mentioning in this respect is Verrazzano's last voyage, 1528. This is what Samuel Eliot Morison (The European Discovery of America: The Northern Voyages, New York: Oxford University Press (1971)) writes about it: The dyewood profits [from his second voyage - AE] suggested to him and his backers a means of combining exploration with profit - seek the strait in a region where, if you failed to find it, you could cut a cargo of logwood. Accordingly they arranged a third voyage, consisting of two of three ships, with Verrazzano's flag in _La Flamengue_ of F'ecamp. They departed Dieppe in the spring of 1528. Our sole knowledge of what happened on this voyage, which ended fatally for the Captain, is derived from a few words in Ramusio's collection of voyages, and a poem by Giulio Giovio, nephew and disciple of the humanist Paolo Giovio. Girolama the map-maker, who survived, told the tragic tale to both Giovii, and Giulio wrote of it in a long narrative, _Storia Poetica_. This fleet crossed the Atlantic by a route slightly north of Columbus's. First raising the coast of Florida, Verrazzano sailed to the Bahamas and then shaped a course for the Isthmus of Darien, intending probably to investigate the Gulf of Darien for a possible strait. En route he changed his mind and followed the chain of the Lesser Antilles. There he made the mistake of anchoring well off shore, as he customarily did. Unfortunately, the island where he chose to call -probably Guadeloupe- was inhabited by no gentle tribe of Indians, but by ferocious, man-eating Caribs. The Verrazzano brothers rowed shoreward in the ship's boat. A crowd of natives waited at the water's edge, licking their chops at the prospect of a human lunch; but the French as yet knew nought of this nation of cannibals. Giovanni innocently waded ashore along while Girolamo and the boat's crew plied their oars far enough off the beach to avoid the breakers. The Caribs, expert at murder, overpowered and killed the great navigator, then cut up and ate his still quivering body whilst his brother looked on helplessly, seeing the "sand ruddy with fraternal blood." The ships were anchored too far off shore to render gunfire support. _Questo infelice fine hebbe questo valente gentilhuomo_, wrote Ramussio, "To so miserable an end came this valiant gentleman." From subsequent lawsuits we know that _La Flamengue_ continued her voyage to Brazil, and in March 1529 brought back a cargo of logwood to Brittany. Girolamo, after finishing his chart showing the 1524 voyage, sailed back to Brazil in 1529 as master of the ship _La Bonne Aventure_ of Le Havre. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 1 20:45:05 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA16834 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 20:45:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA12877. Fri, 1 May 1998 20:42:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin08 [131.155.70.71] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA12873 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 20:42:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailgate22-hme0.a001.sprintmail.com [205.137.196.54] by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA11542 (SMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 20:42:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mailgate22.a001.sprintmail.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA00660; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:42:07 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sprintmail.com Received: from unknown(168.191.227.207) by mailfep1-hme1 via dsmap-1.22 id Q_10.1.1.4/Q_21023_1_354a173c; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:41:00 -0700 Message-ID: <001401bd752e$aae63180$cfe3bfa8@chono> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Serendipitous Discoveries Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:26:31 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR One "serendipitous discovery" that comes to mind is Chang Ch'ien's discovery of the Western World during early Han times. As Szu-ma Ch'ien put it, he "drilled into emptiness," i.e., discovered something entirely new. Paul D. Buell -----Original Message----- From: Robert W. Easton To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Serendipitous Discoveries >When he sailed within sight of the eastern coast of (what is now) Canada, >Bjarni Herjolfsson was on his way to Greenland, not North America. He may >not have known where he was, but he did know where he wasn't, i.e. >Greenland (Jones, 298). > >Question of the day: Who said: "If you always do what you always did, >you'll always get what you always got"? > >Robert W. Easton - Bancroft School 110 Shore Drive Worcester, MA USA >01605 >reaston@bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us > > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 1 20:45:35 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA16840 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 20:45:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA12883. Fri, 1 May 1998 20:43:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA12879 (ESMTP). Fri, 1 May 1998 20:43:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id UAA00878. Fri, 1 May 1998 20:43:23 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199805011843.UAA00878@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Serendipitous Discoveries To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 20:43:23 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Robert W. Easton" at May 1, 98 02:18:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Robert W. Easton wrote: > > When he sailed within sight of the eastern coast of (what is now) Canada, > Bjarni Herjolfsson was on his way to Greenland, not North America. He may > not have known where he was, but he did know where he wasn't, i.e. > Greenland (Jones, 298). In the same way the vikings had before discovered Iceland (on the way to Faeroer) and Greenland (on the way to Iceland). Here are some more cases I can think of: Colaeus is blown off course on the way to Egypt he discovers the straits of Gibraltar, and makes a very profitable trade in Tartessus. Portuguese seamen, looking for Antilia, find the true position of the Azores. The first Portuguese visit to Japan was by a group of shipwreck victims. Orellana goes downriver the Napo to find a source of food for Hernando Pizarro's expedition. His voyage ends a full continent downstream, at the mouth of the Amazon. Dirk Hartogh, using the new VOC-route from south Africa to Java, discovers the Australian west coast; several other dutch seamen find other parts of the coast in the same way. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 2 00:39:55 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA18654 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 00:39:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA13603. Sat, 2 May 1998 00:36:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA13599 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 00:36:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@ns2.agora.dk [194.19.128.20] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA18420 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 00:36:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from 194.19.128.103 (pc03.agora.dk [194.19.128.103]) by heimdal.agora.dk (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA03952 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 23:38:08 +0200 Message-ID: <354A5794.6F64@apple.agora.dk> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 23:15:32 +0000 From: Wild Goose Organization: Aa-Tchoo! Film X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Serendipitous Discoveries References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Robert W. Easton wrote: > > When he sailed within sight of the eastern coast of (what is now) Canada, > Bjarni Herjolfsson was on his way to Greenland, not North America. Well, yeah, we should all know that several people sirendepituously discovered North America before Columbus, but these earlier lost people all managed to cover it up when they got home. :) > He may > not have known where he was, but he did know where he wasn't, i.e. > Greenland (Jones, 298). > > Question of the day: Who said: "If you always do what you always did, > you'll always get what you always got"? Can't answer this one but it's contradicted by this other one: "Plus c'est la meme chose, plus ca change." ("The more things stay the same, the more they change.") Life is not built on solid foundations, so it's nearly impossible to do what you always did, anyway. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 2 05:02:14 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA29865 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 05:02:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA13880. Sat, 2 May 1998 04:59:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA13876 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 04:59:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dns.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA01641 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 04:59:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ncia.net (ncia121n.ncia.net [207.141.176.121]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA19561 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 22:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <354A8B97.94F30277@ncia.net> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 22:57:27 -0400 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Serendip in Myth and Reality References: <3.0.5.16.19980501091220.405f9538@pop3.ziplink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Michael J. Mooney wrote: > Hi, > > It's been said that Serendip existed as a geographical entity that > eventually became Ceylon...and finally Sri Lanka... > > Does anyone know the story of "serendip"...how it came to be called this. > Any "serendipitous takeoffs" on this are most welcomed...:-). Thanks. > > M i k e > > = = = = = > > MICHAEL J. MOONEY > 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA > FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) > Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net > Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) There were three Princes of Serendip, who were looking for whatever and ran across gold (or something eqaullly valuable) by chance. You might look it up in the OED or Phrase and Fable. Good places to start, anyway. Richard Burack From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 2 05:02:15 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA29880 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 05:02:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA13874. Sat, 2 May 1998 04:59:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA13870 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 04:59:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from moose.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA24776 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 04:58:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ncia.net (ncia121n.ncia.net [207.141.176.121]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA19533 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 22:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <354A8B75.FB527915@ncia.net> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 22:56:53 -0400 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Serendipitous Discoveries References: <3.0.5.16.19980501090849.405f74c8@pop3.ziplink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Michael J. Mooney wrote: > Hi, > > I'm looking for examples of serendipitous discoveries through history... > > One such event leaps to mind, of course...Columbus and the New World. > Surely there have been others... Yes? Thanks. > > M i k e > > = = = = = > > MICHAEL J. MOONEY > 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA > FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) > Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net > Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) Modern medicine and pyhysiology would probably not be had it not been for serendipity. This is more than a leitmotif of a book I've been working on for three years. Richard Burack From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 2 05:03:28 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA01143 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 05:03:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id FAA13904. Sat, 2 May 1998 05:01:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA13900 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 05:01:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from moose.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA24795 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 05:01:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ncia.net (ncia121n.ncia.net [207.141.176.121]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA19645 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 23:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <354A8BFA.84BBB9E9@ncia.net> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 22:59:07 -0400 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Serendipitous Discoveries References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR J. Buell wrote: > The discovery of Brazil by the Portuguese comes to mind... > > Cabral, on the first commercial voyage to India following Vasco Da Gama's > voyages, in his attempt to reach India and clear the Cape of Good Hope > stood out to sea and bumped into Brazil in 1500. A ship was dispatched > back to Portugal and the rest as they say, is history.... > > J. Buell > > > Hi, > > > > I'm looking for examples of serendipitous discoveries through history... > > > > One such event leaps to mind, of course...Columbus and the New World. > > Surely there have been others... Yes? Thanks. > > > > M i k e > > > > = = = = = > > > > MICHAEL J. MOONEY > > 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA > > FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) > > Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net > > Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) > > > > Yes, but in the part of Brazil that lay east of the Pope's demarcation line that was not clearly Spanish, though the Pope, in all of his extraordinary wisdom (and between Mistresses) didn't realize this. In fact, French Huegenots tried to set up a colony there (as they did in Florida.). Phillip of Spain had a fit over Protestants living in the New World and sent an armed group to kill them all off. Which they did. But not before, Thevet (a Catholic priest turned Protestant) had been in and out of Brazil long enough to learn about the habits of the natives and be the first to bring tobacco back to Europe. They grew it in France as an ornamental shrub before Nicot encountered it in Portugal. The action of this Borgia Pope (one of the most corrupt in History) might as well be called serendipitous. Richard Burack From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 2 05:05:07 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA02665 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 05:05:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id FAA13914. Sat, 2 May 1998 05:02:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA13910 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 05:02:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA19160 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 05:02:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ncia.net (ncia121n.ncia.net [207.141.176.121]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA19724 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 23:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 23:00:32 -0400 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] French Exploration in Carribean References: <199805011823.UAA00862@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Andre Engels wrote: > Layne Hedrick wrote: > > > I would like to open up discussions on the involvement of the French in > > Caribbean exploration. Does anyone have > > any information that they would like to share. > > The Caribbean exploration can be regarded a completely Spanish undertaking. > The only French voyage I can remember that might be worthwhile mentioning in > this respect is Verrazzano's last voyage, 1528. This is what Samuel Eliot > Morison (The European Discovery of America: The Northern Voyages, New York: > Oxford University Press (1971)) writes about it: > > The dyewood profits [from his second voyage - AE] suggested to him and his > backers a means of combining exploration with profit - seek the strait in a > region where, if you failed to find it, you could cut a cargo of logwood. > Accordingly they arranged a third voyage, consisting of two of three ships, > with Verrazzano's flag in _La Flamengue_ of F'ecamp. They departed Dieppe in > the spring of 1528. Our sole knowledge of what happened on this voyage, > which ended fatally for the Captain, is derived from a few words in > Ramusio's collection of voyages, and a poem by Giulio Giovio, nephew and > disciple of the humanist Paolo Giovio. Girolama the map-maker, who survived, > told the tragic tale to both Giovii, and Giulio wrote of it in a long > narrative, _Storia Poetica_. > This fleet crossed the Atlantic by a route slightly north of Columbus's. > First raising the coast of Florida, Verrazzano sailed to the Bahamas and > then shaped a course for the Isthmus of Darien, intending probably to > investigate the Gulf of Darien for a possible strait. En route he changed > his mind and followed the chain of the Lesser Antilles. There he made the > mistake of anchoring well off shore, as he customarily did. Unfortunately, > the island where he chose to call -probably Guadeloupe- was inhabited by no > gentle tribe of Indians, but by ferocious, man-eating Caribs. The Verrazzano > brothers rowed shoreward in the ship's boat. A crowd of natives waited at > the water's edge, licking their chops at the prospect of a human lunch; but > the French as yet knew nought of this nation of cannibals. Giovanni > innocently waded ashore along while Girolamo and the boat's crew plied > their oars far enough off the beach to avoid the breakers. The Caribs, > expert at murder, overpowered and killed the great navigator, then cut up > and ate his still quivering body whilst his brother looked on helplessly, > seeing the "sand ruddy with fraternal blood." The ships were anchored too > far off shore to render gunfire support. > _Questo infelice fine hebbe questo valente gentilhuomo_, wrote Ramussio, > "To so miserable an end came this valiant gentleman." > From subsequent lawsuits we know that _La Flamengue_ continued her voyage > to Brazil, and in March 1529 brought back a cargo of logwood to Brittany. > Girolamo, after finishing his chart showing the 1524 voyage, sailed back to > Brazil in 1529 as master of the ship _La Bonne Aventure_ of Le Havre. > > -- > Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 > http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > > A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order > will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson That's good material of which I had no knowledge whatever. I wondered how the French got to Brazil. But I thought it was a little later -- closer to 1850. Please do educate us more abouut this all-but-forgotten episode in History. And, while at it, can you provide a reference for what I know I have read, viz., that Phillip sent militia to kill the French Huegenots in South America (in their little colony on an island in what is now Rio de Janeiro's harbor)? Thanks, Richard Burack From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 2 07:13:02 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA05706 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 07:13:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id HAA13973. Sat, 2 May 1998 07:09:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA13969 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 07:09:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay-0.ziplink.net [206.15.168.49] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id HAA05693 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 07:09:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from LOCALNAME (nyc-ip-1-133.ziplink.net [208.196.104.133]) by ziplink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA00815 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 01:09:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.16.19980502011025.4fff8844@pop3.ziplink.net> X-Sender: emerald@pop3.ziplink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (16) Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 01:10:25 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Michael J. Mooney" Subject: [EXP] [M] Bouvet Island, South Atlantic Ocean Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hi, I'm seeking to learn everything I can about BOUVET ISLAND (BOUVETOYA)...a remote Norwegian dependency in the far South Atlantic Ocean...it's discovery...history... development...and it's status today... Of particular interest are Bouvet's geographical and scientific aspects...the latter in terms of exploratory visits to the island...scientific studies...etc. I'd also appreciate leads for follow-up inquiries... Thanks. M i k e = = = = = MICHAEL J. MOONEY 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 2 17:04:46 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA07296 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 17:04:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA14418. Sat, 2 May 1998 16:59:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA14414 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 16:59:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA06626 (SMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 16:59:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 32398 invoked from network); 2 May 1998 14:58:47 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 2 May 1998 14:58:47 -0000 Received: from bga.com (apm4-197.realtime.net [205.238.146.197]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA07175 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 09:52:46 -0500 Message-ID: <354B3424.22F0984B@bga.com> Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 09:56:37 -0500 From: Layne Hedrick X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] French Exploration in Carribean References: <199805011823.UAA00862@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------23CAFB5159910AF01DF5B8E2" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR --------------23CAFB5159910AF01DF5B8E2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The year 1559 marked the beginning of a period fatal to French projects of expansion abroad. Coligny persuaded Catherine de Medicis, Regent for the young Charles IX, to let him attempt a colony in Brazil. This information come from The French in the West Indies by Adolphe Roberts (1971). The information that you request can be found here. -- Layne Hedrick (512) 475-4601 Texas Historical Commission aleister@bga.com La Salle Shipwreck Project Assistant Project Director http://www.thc.state.tx.us/belle/index.html Kingstown Shipwreck Project http://www.maritimehistory.org/StVincent/intro.html Sadanna Island Shipwreck Project http://www.adventurecorps.com/inaegypt.html --------------23CAFB5159910AF01DF5B8E2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The year 1559 marked the beginning of a period fatal to French projects of expansion abroad.  Coligny persuaded Catherine de Medicis, Regent for the young Charles IX, to let him attempt a colony in Brazil.

This information come from The French in the West Indies by Adolphe Roberts (1971).  The information that you request can be found here. 

--
Layne Hedrick                                  (512) 475-4601
Texas Historical Commission                    aleister@bga.com

La Salle Shipwreck Project
Assistant Project Director
http://www.thc.state.tx.us/belle/index.html

Kingstown Shipwreck Project
http://www.maritimehistory.org/StVincent/intro.html

Sadanna Island Shipwreck Project                          http://www.adventurecorps.com/inaegypt.html
  --------------23CAFB5159910AF01DF5B8E2-- From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 2 19:13:53 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA07644 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 19:13:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA14481. Sat, 2 May 1998 19:09:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA14477 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 19:09:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from moose.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA06979 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 19:09:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ncia.net (ncia82n.ncia.net [207.141.176.82]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA17204 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 13:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <354B52C8.533B327A@ncia.net> Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 13:07:20 -0400 From: Richard Burack X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] French in Carribean (date correction) References: <199805011823.UAA00862@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Richard Burack wrote: > Andre Engels wrote: > > > Layne Hedrick wrote: > > > > > I would like to open up discussions on the involvement of the French in > > > Caribbean exploration. Does anyone have > > > any information that they would like to share. > > > > The Caribbean exploration can be regarded a completely Spanish undertaking. > > The only French voyage I can remember that might be worthwhile mentioning in > > this respect is Verrazzano's last voyage, 1528. This is what Samuel Eliot > > Morison (The European Discovery of America: The Northern Voyages, New York: > > Oxford University Press (1971)) writes about it: > > > > The dyewood profits [from his second voyage - AE] suggested to him and his > > backers a means of combining exploration with profit - seek the strait in a > > region where, if you failed to find it, you could cut a cargo of logwood. > > Accordingly they arranged a third voyage, consisting of two of three ships, > > with Verrazzano's flag in _La Flamengue_ of F'ecamp. They departed Dieppe in > > the spring of 1528. Our sole knowledge of what happened on this voyage, > > which ended fatally for the Captain, is derived from a few words in > > Ramusio's collection of voyages, and a poem by Giulio Giovio, nephew and > > disciple of the humanist Paolo Giovio. Girolama the map-maker, who survived, > > told the tragic tale to both Giovii, and Giulio wrote of it in a long > > narrative, _Storia Poetica_. > > This fleet crossed the Atlantic by a route slightly north of Columbus's. > > First raising the coast of Florida, Verrazzano sailed to the Bahamas and > > then shaped a course for the Isthmus of Darien, intending probably to > > investigate the Gulf of Darien for a possible strait. En route he changed > > his mind and followed the chain of the Lesser Antilles. There he made the > > mistake of anchoring well off shore, as he customarily did. Unfortunately, > > the island where he chose to call -probably Guadeloupe- was inhabited by no > > gentle tribe of Indians, but by ferocious, man-eating Caribs. The Verrazzano > > brothers rowed shoreward in the ship's boat. A crowd of natives waited at > > the water's edge, licking their chops at the prospect of a human lunch; but > > the French as yet knew nought of this nation of cannibals. Giovanni > > innocently waded ashore along while Girolamo and the boat's crew plied > > their oars far enough off the beach to avoid the breakers. The Caribs, > > expert at murder, overpowered and killed the great navigator, then cut up > > and ate his still quivering body whilst his brother looked on helplessly, > > seeing the "sand ruddy with fraternal blood." The ships were anchored too > > far off shore to render gunfire support. > > _Questo infelice fine hebbe questo valente gentilhuomo_, wrote Ramussio, > > "To so miserable an end came this valiant gentleman." > > From subsequent lawsuits we know that _La Flamengue_ continued her voyage > > to Brazil, and in March 1529 brought back a cargo of logwood to Brittany. > > Girolamo, after finishing his chart showing the 1524 voyage, sailed back to > > Brazil in 1529 as master of the ship _La Bonne Aventure_ of Le Havre. > > > > -- > > Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 > > http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > > > > A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order > > will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson > > That's good material of which I had no knowledge whatever. I wondered how the > French got to Brazil. But I thought it was a little later -- closer to 1550. > Please do educate us more abouut this all-but-forgotten episode in History. And, > while at it, can you provide a reference for what I know I have read, viz., that > Phillip sent militia to kill the French Huegenots in South America (in their > little colony on an island in what is now Rio de Janeiro's harbor)? > Thanks, Richard Burack From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 2 21:32:12 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA08724 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 21:32:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA14868. Sat, 2 May 1998 21:28:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA14863 (ESMTP). Sat, 2 May 1998 21:28:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id VAA01781. Sat, 2 May 1998 21:28:42 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199805021928.VAA01781@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Bouvet Island, South Atlantic Ocean To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 21:28:42 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.19980502011025.4fff8844@pop3.ziplink.net> from "Michael J. Mooney" at May 2, 98 01:10:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Michael J. Mooney wrote: > Hi, > > I'm seeking to learn everything I can about BOUVET ISLAND (BOUVETOYA)...a > remote Norwegian dependency in the far South Atlantic Ocean...it's > discovery...history... development...and it's status today... > > Of particular interest are Bouvet's geographical and scientific > aspects...the latter in terms of exploratory visits to the > island...scientific studies...etc. > > I'd also appreciate leads for follow-up inquiries... Thanks. Bouvet Island was discovered by Jean-Baptiste Bouvet de Lozier in 1739. He called it 'Cap de Circumcision', and thought it was a cape of Terra Australis. Because it was mis-charted it could not be found again until 1808, when it was seen by the British whaler Lindsay. Morrell in 1822 was the first who landed on the island, and renamed it after its discoverer. In 1829 the island was claimed for Norway. This information and more on Bouvet's expedition can be found at URL http://www.south-pole.com/p0000067.htm -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 3 00:13:52 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA10305 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 00:13:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA15086. Sun, 3 May 1998 00:09:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA15082 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 00:09:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@ns2.agora.dk [194.19.128.20] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA27696 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 00:09:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from 194.19.128.199 (pc99.agora.dk [194.19.128.199]) by heimdal.agora.dk (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA10235 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 23:11:26 +0200 Message-ID: <354BA935.3484@apple.agora.dk> Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 23:16:05 +0000 From: Wild Goose Organization: Aa-Tchoo! Film X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Bouvet Island, South Atlantic Ocean References: <199805021928.VAA01781@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I'm confused. If Bouvet Island is in the South ATLANTIC, how was it mistaken for a cape of Terra Australis? (I presume Terra Australis means Australia, which is a long way from the Atlantic.) Did Michael mistype? (Easily done.) Did he mean South Pacific? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm genuinely ignorant. Thanks. Andre Engels wrote: > > Michael J. Mooney wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I'm seeking to learn everything I can about BOUVET ISLAND (BOUVETOYA)...a > > remote Norwegian dependency in the far South Atlantic Ocean...it's > > discovery...history... development...and it's status today... > > -SNIP- > > Bouvet Island was discovered by Jean-Baptiste Bouvet de Lozier in 1739. > He called it 'Cap de Circumcision', and thought it was a cape of Terra > Australis. Because it was mis-charted it could not be found again until > 1808, I guess, if Bouvet charted it in the South Atlantic and it was actually in the South Pacific, that could explain why it was so difficult to find again. :) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 3 01:33:23 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA10622 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 01:33:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id BAA15342. Sun, 3 May 1998 01:30:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA15338 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 01:30:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.178] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA03628 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 01:29:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from preinstalledcom - 153.36.209.154 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:29:28 -0700 From: "Ken Stromquist" To: Subject: [EXP] no subject and blank e-mail Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 18:29:34 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0f41a2829230258UPIMSSMTPUSR06@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Dear Lane, I received a no subject and blank e-mail form you. Can you please resend? -----Original Message----- From: Layne Hedrick To: genealog@email.msn.com ; qasqyr@email.msn.com Date: Saturday, May 02, 1998 10:20 AM From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 3 01:42:16 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA10637 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 01:42:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id BAA15355. Sun, 3 May 1998 01:40:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA15351 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 01:40:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailgate22-hme0.a001.sprintmail.com [205.137.196.54] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA22643 (SMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 01:40:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mailgate22.a001.sprintmail.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA22376; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:39:29 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sprintmail.com Received: from unknown(168.191.227.165) by mailfep2-hme1 via dsmap-1.22 id Q_10.1.1.6/Q_29806_1_354bae76; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:38:30 -0700 Message-ID: <001001bd7621$625b7080$a5e3bfa8@chono> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Bouvet Island, South Atlantic Ocean Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 16:23:57 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Terra australis refers to the "southern continent" that Ptolemy placed at the extreme south of his maps to "balance" the north. Even after the circumnaviation of the world by Magalhaes and his successors maps continued to place such a continent in the south belived to be separated from South America by only a narrow straight. Better Antarctica rather than Australia. In fact,it was quite a while before Australia was recognized as being separate. See Donald Lach, Volume 3. Paul D. Buell -----Original Message----- From: Wild Goose To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Saturday, May 02, 1998 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Bouvet Island, South Atlantic Ocean >I'm confused. If Bouvet Island is in the South ATLANTIC, how was it >mistaken for a cape of Terra Australis? (I presume Terra Australis means >Australia, which is a long way from the Atlantic.) Did Michael mistype? >(Easily done.) Did he mean South Pacific? I'm not trying to be smart, >I'm genuinely ignorant. Thanks. > > >Andre Engels wrote: >> >> Michael J. Mooney wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > I'm seeking to learn everything I can about BOUVET ISLAND (BOUVETOYA)...a >> > remote Norwegian dependency in the far South Atlantic Ocean...it's >> > discovery...history... development...and it's status today... >> > > >-SNIP- > >> >> Bouvet Island was discovered by Jean-Baptiste Bouvet de Lozier in 1739. >> He called it 'Cap de Circumcision', and thought it was a cape of Terra >> Australis. Because it was mis-charted it could not be found again until >> 1808, > >I guess, if Bouvet charted it in the South Atlantic and it was actually >in the South Pacific, that could explain why it was so difficult to find >again. :) > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 3 02:28:27 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id CAA10769 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 02:28:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id CAA15392. Sun, 3 May 1998 02:25:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin08 [131.155.70.71] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id CAA15388 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 02:25:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@calvino.alaska.net [209.112.130.6] by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id CAA21772 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 02:25:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [209.112.136.141] (jdc-p50-136.alaska.net [209.112.136.136]) by calvino.alaska.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA05196 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:25:32 -0800 (AKDT) Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 16:25:32 -0800 (AKDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <354BA935.3484@apple.agora.dk> References: <199805021928.VAA01781@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: Dee Longenbaugh Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Bouvet Island, South Atlantic Ocean Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Terra Australis simply means Southern Land - postulated before the New World was discovered as the continent that kept the world balanced. After Magellan's crew reported sailing between land at Cape Horn it was moved South and often called "Magellan's Land". So Australia was named before it was found. A sketchy answer - hope it helps. Dee Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA 235 Second Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 deelong@alaska.net 907/586-9676 fax 907/586-9606 From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 3 06:02:06 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id GAA26814 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 06:02:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id FAA15558. Sun, 3 May 1998 05:58:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA15551 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 05:58:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay-0.ziplink.net [206.15.168.49] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA05403 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 05:58:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from LOCALNAME (nyc-ip-1-65.ziplink.net [208.196.104.65]) by ziplink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28143 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 23:58:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.16.19980502235525.2eefa990@pop3.ziplink.net> X-Sender: emerald@pop3.ziplink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (16) Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 23:55:25 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Michael J. Mooney" Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Bouvet Island, South Atlantic Ocean In-Reply-To: <354BA935.3484@apple.agora.dk> References: <199805021928.VAA01781@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR According to my research, "Terra Australis" referred to the then-undiscovered southern continent we know today as Antarctica. It had nothing to do with Australia, despite the similarity in names. So Bouvet Island (Norwegian Bouvetoya) indeed lies in the South Atlantic Ocean sector of the Antarctic...or Great Southern...Ocean. = = = = = At 23:16 5/2/98 +0000, you wrote: >I'm confused. If Bouvet Island is in the South ATLANTIC, how was it >mistaken for a cape of Terra Australis? (I presume Terra Australis means >Australia, which is a long way from the Atlantic.) Did Michael mistype? >(Easily done.) Did he mean South Pacific? I'm not trying to be smart, >I'm genuinely ignorant. Thanks. > > >Andre Engels wrote: >> >> Michael J. Mooney wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > I'm seeking to learn everything I can about BOUVET ISLAND (BOUVETOYA)...a >> > remote Norwegian dependency in the far South Atlantic Ocean...it's >> > discovery...history... development...and it's status today... >> > > >-SNIP- > >> >> Bouvet Island was discovered by Jean-Baptiste Bouvet de Lozier in 1739. >> He called it 'Cap de Circumcision', and thought it was a cape of Terra >> Australis. Because it was mis-charted it could not be found again until >> 1808, > >I guess, if Bouvet charted it in the South Atlantic and it was actually >in the South Pacific, that could explain why it was so difficult to find >again. :) > > > = = = = = MICHAEL J. MOONEY 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 3 06:02:06 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id GAA26815 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 06:02:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id FAA15557. Sun, 3 May 1998 05:58:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA15549 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 05:58:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay-0.ziplink.net [206.15.168.49] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA26754 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 05:58:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from LOCALNAME (nyc-ip-1-65.ziplink.net [208.196.104.65]) by ziplink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28150 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 23:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.16.19980502235838.2e579120@pop3.ziplink.net> X-Sender: emerald@pop3.ziplink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (16) Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 23:58:38 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Michael J. Mooney" Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Bouvet Island, South Atlantic Ocean In-Reply-To: <199805021928.VAA01781@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> References: <3.0.5.16.19980502011025.4fff8844@pop3.ziplink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Andre, Many thanks for a terrific lead... M i k e = = = = = At 21:28 5/2/98 +0200, you wrote: >Michael J. Mooney wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm seeking to learn everything I can about BOUVET ISLAND (BOUVETOYA)...a >> remote Norwegian dependency in the far South Atlantic Ocean...it's >> discovery...history... development...and it's status today... >> >> Of particular interest are Bouvet's geographical and scientific >> aspects...the latter in terms of exploratory visits to the >> island...scientific studies...etc. >> >> I'd also appreciate leads for follow-up inquiries... Thanks. > >Bouvet Island was discovered by Jean-Baptiste Bouvet de Lozier in 1739. >He called it 'Cap de Circumcision', and thought it was a cape of Terra >Australis. Because it was mis-charted it could not be found again until >1808, when it was seen by the British whaler Lindsay. Morrell in 1822 >was the first who landed on the island, and renamed it after its discoverer. >In 1829 the island was claimed for Norway. > >This information and more on Bouvet's expedition can be found at URL >http://www.south-pole.com/p0000067.htm > > >-- >Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 >http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > >A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order >will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson > > > > = = = = = MICHAEL J. MOONEY 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 3 13:17:09 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA28194 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 13:17:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id NAA15842. Sun, 3 May 1998 13:14:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA15838 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 13:13:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@heimdal.agora.dk [194.19.128.20] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA04405 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 13:13:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from 194.19.128.103 (pc03.agora.dk [194.19.128.103]) by heimdal.agora.dk (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA13756 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 12:15:34 +0200 Message-ID: <354C60E3.7BA2@apple.agora.dk> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 12:19:47 +0000 From: Wild Goose Organization: Aa-Tchoo! Film X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Terra Australis References: <001001bd7621$625b7080$a5e3bfa8@chono> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Well, thanks for the illumination of that dark spot in my knowledge, about Terra Australis. Now, would it be appropriate to ask how come Ptolemy thought the world needed to be balanced? Didn't he know that Africa is much bigger than Europe? Alright, I know he didn't have a Peter's projection map but... surely he had an idea that Africa stretches AAAALLLL the way down there and aallll the way over there and down there on the other side? I hope it doesn't bother, to have such an ignoramus asking such basic questions, but did Ptolemy know approximately what shape and size Africa was? How much of the world had the ancient Greeks charted? Actually, I bet I'm not the only ignoramus on here, among all you well-read folks who replied or could have replied. I bet there's a lot of lurkers who would also like a concise explanation of how the ancient Greeks pictured the world. What do you say? Thanks, again. Morten. Paul D. Buell wrote: > > Terra australis refers to the "southern continent" that Ptolemy placed at > the extreme south of his maps to "balance" the north. Even after the > circumnaviation of the world by Magalhaes and his successors maps continued > to place such a continent in the south belived to be separated from South > America by only a narrow straight. Better Antarctica rather than Australia. > In fact,it was quite a while before Australia was recognized as being > separate. See Donald Lach, Volume 3. Paul D. Buell > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 3 20:19:04 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA29300 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 20:19:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA16157. Sun, 3 May 1998 20:14:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin08 [131.155.70.71] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA16153 (ESMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 20:14:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailgate22-hme0.a001.sprintmail.com [205.137.196.54] by svin08.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA29197 (SMTP). Sun, 3 May 1998 20:14:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mailgate22.a001.sprintmail.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA18287; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:14:04 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sprintmail.com Received: from unknown(168.191.227.22) by mailfep1-hme1 via dsmap-1.22 id Q_10.1.1.4/Q_27254_1_354cb3d0; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:13:36 -0700 Message-ID: <002101bd76bd$27f97bc0$16e3bfa8@chono> From: "Paul D. Buell" To: Subject: Re: [EXP] Terra Australis Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 10:59:01 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Probably the best place to start your research is the Oxford Classical Dictionary, the new edition of which has on pages 1273-75 a large article on Ptolemy and on pages 632-3 one on Geography, Greek, with a good introductory bibliography. Paul D. Buell -----Original Message----- From: Wild Goose To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 4:29 AM Subject: [EXP] Terra Australis >Well, thanks for the illumination of that dark spot in my knowledge, >about Terra Australis. > >Now, would it be appropriate to ask how come Ptolemy thought the world >needed to be balanced? Didn't he know that Africa is much bigger than >Europe? Alright, I know he didn't have a Peter's projection map but... >surely he had an idea that Africa stretches AAAALLLL the way down there >and aallll the way over there and down there on the other side? I hope >it doesn't bother, to have such an ignoramus asking such basic >questions, but did Ptolemy know approximately what shape and size Africa >was? How much of the world had the ancient Greeks charted? > >Actually, I bet I'm not the only ignoramus on here, among all you >well-read folks who replied or could have replied. I bet there's a lot >of lurkers who would also like a concise explanation of how the ancient >Greeks pictured the world. What do you say? > >Thanks, again. >Morten. > > >Paul D. Buell wrote: >> >> Terra australis refers to the "southern continent" that Ptolemy placed at >> the extreme south of his maps to "balance" the north. Even after the >> circumnaviation of the world by Magalhaes and his successors maps continued >> to place such a continent in the south belived to be separated from South >> America by only a narrow straight. Better Antarctica rather than Australia. >> In fact,it was quite a while before Australia was recognized as being >> separate. See Donald Lach, Volume 3. Paul D. Buell >> > > From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 4 18:03:20 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA20766 (ESMTP). Mon, 4 May 1998 18:03:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id RAA18145. Mon, 4 May 1998 17:56:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA18141 (ESMTP). Mon, 4 May 1998 17:56:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hawk.anselm.edu [198.112.196.2] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA20733 (SMTP). Mon, 4 May 1998 17:56:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by hawk.anselm.edu; (5.65v3.0/1.1.8.2/18Apr95-0421PM) id AA23992; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:54:15 -0400 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:54:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Silvia Shannon To: discovery@win.tue.nl Cc: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] French Exploration in Carribean In-Reply-To: <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR French traders had been trading in Brazil prior to 1510. The French effort to establish a colony in Rio de Janeiro was led by Nicolas Durand de Villegagnon.The colony was authorized by king Henry II of France. The colony lasted from 1555-1560. It was not a huguenot colony even though there were Calvinists among the colonists.The French colony was defeated by the Portuguese not by Philip II of Spain. The motive for the attack on the French in Brazil was not a religious one. The Portuguese did not desire to see the French maintain a fort on the coast of Brazil- a fort which would enable the French to protect their highly profitable trade with the Indians in Brazil for brazilwood and other items. Silvia Shannon From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 4 18:20:54 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA20869 (ESMTP). Mon, 4 May 1998 18:20:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA18174. Mon, 4 May 1998 18:17:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA18170 (ESMTP). Mon, 4 May 1998 18:17:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id SAA03818. Mon, 4 May 1998 18:17:40 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199805041617.SAA03818@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] French Exploration in Carribean To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:17:40 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> from "Richard Burack" at May 1, 98 11:00:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Richard Burack wrote: > French got to Brazil. But I thought it was a little later -- closer to 1850. > Please do educate us more abouut this all-but-forgotten episode in History. And, > while at it, can you provide a reference for what I know I have read, viz., that > Phillip sent militia to kill the French Huegenots in South America (in their > little colony on an island in what is now Rio de Janeiro's harbor)? > Thanks, Richard Burack The first French contacts with Brazil date from the very early 16th century. In the first decade of that century a Frenchman named Gonneville made two or three voyages to 'Terre de Gonneville'. Although on maps of those times it is most often placed in the South-Atlantic portion of Terra Australis, in the last century it was realized that this must have been in Brazil. The tribe of indians he met there, of whom one or more visited France (I'm not certain whether they returned to Brazil or died there) has even been identified, Carijo if I recall correctly. Unfortunately I have no material at hand about this short but interesting scene in the history of exploration and colonization. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 4 21:22:37 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA22157 (ESMTP). Mon, 4 May 1998 21:22:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA18507. Mon, 4 May 1998 21:18:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA18503 (ESMTP). Mon, 4 May 1998 21:18:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f75.hotmail.com [207.82.250.181] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA27834 (SMTP). Mon, 4 May 1998 21:18:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 19343 invoked by uid 0); 4 May 1998 19:17:26 -0000 Message-ID: <19980504191726.19342.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.255.161.186 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 04 May 1998 12:17:25 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.255.161.186] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Bouvet Island, South Atlantic Ocean Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 12:17:25 PDT Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Bouvet de Lozier discovered Bouvet Island in 1729 (1 January), not 1739, as was previously stated by another. Benjamin Morrell is totally untrustworthy for anything he ever said or wrote. The mere fact that he claimed to have landed on it can almost be taken as proof he never did and probably never even got near it. He is one of the great liars of geographical explorations. George Norris, a British sealer, was the first to land on the island. He came upon the island on 10 December 1825 and landed on it and claimed it for Great Britain six days later. It was seen by the Americans Williams in 1878, Church in 1882, and, possibly, Fuller in 1893. Captain Krech, a German, sighted it 25 November 1898. Until this event, the existence of Bouvet was frequently doubted, it not being found when searched for by Cook, Ross, and others. It's location was not correctly made until this 1898 voyage. Greg McIntosh plusultra@hotmail.com > >Michael J. Mooney wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm seeking to learn everything I can about BOUVET ISLAND (BOUVETOYA)...a >> remote Norwegian dependency in the far South Atlantic Ocean...it's >> discovery...history... development...and it's status today... >> >> Of particular interest are Bouvet's geographical and scientific >> aspects...the latter in terms of exploratory visits to the >> island...scientific studies...etc. >> >> I'd also appreciate leads for follow-up inquiries... Thanks. > >Bouvet Island was discovered by Jean-Baptiste Bouvet de Lozier in 1739. >He called it 'Cap de Circumcision', and thought it was a cape of Terra >Australis. Because it was mis-charted it could not be found again until >1808, when it was seen by the British whaler Lindsay. Morrell in 1822 >was the first who landed on the island, and renamed it after its discoverer. >In 1829 the island was claimed for Norway. > >This information and more on Bouvet's expedition can be found at URL >http://www.south-pole.com/p0000067.htm > > >-- >Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 >http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > >A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order >will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 5 11:37:49 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id LAA11251 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 11:37:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id LAA19824. Tue, 5 May 1998 11:33:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id LAA19820 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 11:33:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay-0.ziplink.net [206.15.168.49] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id LAA07035 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 11:33:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from LOCALNAME (nyc-ip-1-168.ziplink.net [208.196.104.168]) by ziplink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA09925 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.16.19980505053331.0c87e624@pop3.ziplink.net> X-Sender: emerald@pop3.ziplink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (16) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 05:33:31 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Michael J. Mooney" Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Bouvet Island, South Atlantic Ocean In-Reply-To: <19980504191726.19342.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Greg, Where did you get the 1729 date? I've been interested in this remote island...on and off...since the early 70's and have always seen January 1, 1739 as the discovery date by Captain Bouvet. M i k e = = = = = At 12:17 5/4/98 PDT, you wrote: >Bouvet de Lozier discovered Bouvet Island in 1729 (1 January), not 1739, >as was previously stated by another. Benjamin Morrell is totally >untrustworthy for anything he ever said or wrote. The mere fact that he >claimed to have landed on it can almost be taken as proof he never did >and probably never even got near it. He is one of the great liars of >geographical explorations. George Norris, a British sealer, was the >first to land on the island. He came upon the island on 10 December >1825 and landed on it and claimed it for Great Britain six days later. >It was seen by the Americans Williams in 1878, Church in 1882, and, >possibly, Fuller in 1893. Captain Krech, a German, sighted it 25 >November 1898. Until this event, the existence of Bouvet was frequently >doubted, it not being found when searched for by Cook, Ross, and others. >It's location was not correctly made until this 1898 voyage. > >Greg McIntosh >plusultra@hotmail.com > >> >>Michael J. Mooney wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I'm seeking to learn everything I can about BOUVET ISLAND >(BOUVETOYA)...a >>> remote Norwegian dependency in the far South Atlantic Ocean...it's >>> discovery...history... development...and it's status today... >>> >>> Of particular interest are Bouvet's geographical and scientific >>> aspects...the latter in terms of exploratory visits to the >>> island...scientific studies...etc. >>> >>> I'd also appreciate leads for follow-up inquiries... Thanks. >> >>Bouvet Island was discovered by Jean-Baptiste Bouvet de Lozier in 1739. >>He called it 'Cap de Circumcision', and thought it was a cape of Terra >>Australis. Because it was mis-charted it could not be found again until >>1808, when it was seen by the British whaler Lindsay. Morrell in 1822 >>was the first who landed on the island, and renamed it after its >discoverer. >>In 1829 the island was claimed for Norway. >> >>This information and more on Bouvet's expedition can be found at URL >>http://www.south-pole.com/p0000067.htm >> >> >>-- >>Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 >>http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html >> >>A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order >>will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson >> >> >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > = = = = = MICHAEL J. MOONEY 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 5 15:27:35 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA12315 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 15:27:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA20165. Tue, 5 May 1998 15:24:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA20161 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 15:24:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA21287 (SMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 15:24:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 15336 invoked from network); 5 May 1998 13:24:47 -0000 Received: from apm7-209.realtime.net (HELO bga.com) (204.96.0.209) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 5 May 1998 13:24:47 -0000 Message-ID: <354F2FAF.D7097F1F@bga.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:26:39 -0700 From: Layne Hedrick X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] The French in Trinidad and Tobago References: <199805011823.UAA00862@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> <354B52C8.533B327A@ncia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Please, if anyone has an information of French activities near the island of Tobago I would like to discuss it. The same goes for Haiti -- Layne Hedrick (512) 475-4601 Texas Historical Commission aleister@bga.com La Salle Shipwreck Project Assistant Project Director http://www.thc.state.tx.us/belle/index.html Kingstown Shipwreck Project http://www.maritimehistory.org/StVincent/intro.html Sadanna Island Shipwreck Project http://www.adventurecorps.com/inaegypt.html From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 5 18:17:24 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA13795 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 18:17:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA20363. Tue, 5 May 1998 18:12:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin10 [131.155.70.127] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA20359 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 18:12:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from f20.hotmail.com [207.82.250.31] by svin10.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA09919 (SMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 18:12:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 21959 invoked by uid 0); 5 May 1998 16:11:50 -0000 Message-ID: <19980505161150.21958.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.107.144.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 05 May 1998 09:11:49 PDT X-Originating-IP: [199.107.144.2] From: "Gregory McIntosh" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] [M] Bouvet Island, South Atlantic Ocean Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:11:49 PDT Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Mike, I will go back and check my source. It is conceivable that it was a typo in that source. Greg > >Greg, > >Where did you get the 1729 date? I've been interested in this remote >island...on and off...since the early 70's and have always seen January 1, >1739 as the discovery date by Captain Bouvet. > >M i k e > >= = = = = > >At 12:17 5/4/98 PDT, you wrote: >>Bouvet de Lozier discovered Bouvet Island in 1729 (1 January), not 1739, >>as was previously stated by another. Benjamin Morrell is totally >>untrustworthy for anything he ever said or wrote. The mere fact that he >>claimed to have landed on it can almost be taken as proof he never did >>and probably never even got near it. He is one of the great liars of >>geographical explorations. George Norris, a British sealer, was the >>first to land on the island. He came upon the island on 10 December >>1825 and landed on it and claimed it for Great Britain six days later. >>It was seen by the Americans Williams in 1878, Church in 1882, and, >>possibly, Fuller in 1893. Captain Krech, a German, sighted it 25 >>November 1898. Until this event, the existence of Bouvet was frequently >>doubted, it not being found when searched for by Cook, Ross, and others. >>It's location was not correctly made until this 1898 voyage. >> >>Greg McIntosh >>plusultra@hotmail.com >> >>> >>>Michael J. Mooney wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I'm seeking to learn everything I can about BOUVET ISLAND >>(BOUVETOYA)...a >>>> remote Norwegian dependency in the far South Atlantic Ocean...it's >>>> discovery...history... development...and it's status today... >>>> >>>> Of particular interest are Bouvet's geographical and scientific >>>> aspects...the latter in terms of exploratory visits to the >>>> island...scientific studies...etc. >>>> >>>> I'd also appreciate leads for follow-up inquiries... Thanks. >>> >>>Bouvet Island was discovered by Jean-Baptiste Bouvet de Lozier in 1739. >>>He called it 'Cap de Circumcision', and thought it was a cape of Terra >>>Australis. Because it was mis-charted it could not be found again until >>>1808, when it was seen by the British whaler Lindsay. Morrell in 1822 >>>was the first who landed on the island, and renamed it after its >>discoverer. >>>In 1829 the island was claimed for Norway. >>> >>>This information and more on Bouvet's expedition can be found at URL >>>http://www.south-pole.com/p0000067.htm >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 >>>http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html >>> >>>A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order >>>will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> >= = = = = > > MICHAEL J. MOONEY > 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA > FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) > Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net > Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 5 19:27:49 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA14160 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 19:27:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA20461. Tue, 5 May 1998 19:24:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA20457 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 19:24:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA10119 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 19:24:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from heabppp43.helsingborg.se (heabppp43.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.203]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id TAA15978 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:24:07 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <354FB5A6.1A4B@helsingborg.se> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:58:14 -0700 From: Bertil Haggman Organization: CRG X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Tobago and the Duchy of Courland References: <199805011823.UAA00862@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> <354B52C8.533B327A@ncia.net> <354F2FAF.D7097F1F@bga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Layne Hedrick wrote: > Please, if anyone has an information of French activities near the > island of Tobago I would like to discuss it. The same goes for Haiti Am also interested in Tobago but for a different reason. During the 17th century Tobago was controlled by the Duchy if Courland (now part of Latvia on the Baltic Sea). Courland used Tobago for trading of slaves between West Africa and Tobago. Further info on the Courlandic control of Tobago is gratefully received. Under Duke Jacob (reigned 1640 - 1682) industries were developed, as well as shipbuilding and a strong Courlandic navy was created. A merchant marine was created in the Baltic Sea and foreign trade was developed. Tobago was a Courland colony from 1645 to 1665 and the Gambia in Africa was a colony of the Duchy of Courland from 1651 to 1665. Greetings Bertil Haggman Author Member, Swedish Authors Association bertil.haggman@helsingborg.se From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Tue May 5 19:54:52 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA14237 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 19:54:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA20484. Tue, 5 May 1998 19:52:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA20480 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 19:52:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA14229 (ESMTP). Tue, 5 May 1998 19:52:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from heabppp73.helsingborg.se (heabppp73.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.228]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id TAA17156 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:52:10 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <354FC0BE.73EB@helsingborg.se> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 18:45:34 -0700 From: Bertil Haggman Organization: CRG X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] For Bouvet Island Fans from Bertil Haggman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Previous Expeditions to Bouvet Oeya (Bouvet Island) Bouvet Oeya (Bouvet Island) has been activated only three times for significant amateur radio operations making Bouvet one of the most consistently sought-after and rare "countries" for DXCC credit in the award's history. The remoteness of the island and the difficulties in activating this island will continue to keep this island near the top of the "most wanted list" under the current country criteria. Bouvet Island was first activated seriously in 1977 by 3Y1VC and 3Y3CC, and then several years later by 3Y1VC and 3Y5DQ during the austral summer 1978-1979. Previous expeditions have been done largely as part of official scientific and governmental activities of Norwegian Polar Exploration efforts. The initial two expeditions by Norwegian amateurs produced a total of approximately 2,500 QSOs. The first major expedition to Bouvet Oeya was conducted once again by two Norwegian operators supplemented with three visitors. The two leaders of this expedition, Einar (LA1EE) and Kare (LA2GV) formed a support group named Club Bouvet (along with Erling, LA6VM) to provide emotional and financial support for a major DXpedition to Bouvet Island in 1989. These two operators were joined on the expedition by Jin Fujiwara (JF1IST), Jacky Calvo (F2CW) and Willy Reusch (HB9AHL). The following is quoted from the 3Y5X QSL card: "This challenging expedition included five radio amateurs, two scientists, a film team of two, a helicopter crew of two, and a camp assistant. The expedition arrived at Bouvet Oeya December 25, 1989 and started landing operations the 27th. The amateur radio operation commenced December 28. During the next 16 days, the radio amateurs made nearly 50,000 contacts on CW, SSB, and RTTY, 160-10m. The scientists mapped the census of penguins and seals and studies the behavior of penguins. The film team shot seven hours of 16mm film for cinema and TV. The 250th anniversary of the discovery of Bouvet Oeya was celebrated and a commemorative plaque in the honor of Consul Lars Christensen was bolted to a rock on the island's western shore (Nyroeysa). This expedition was organized by three Norwegian radio amateurs who founded Club Bouvet on May 17, 1989. The founders were LA1EE, LA2GV, and LA6VM. The project was supported by the Norwegian government and a number of organizations, clubs, and individuals in 30 countries. Club Bouvet wishes in particular to acknowledge the initiative and support by Mr. Thor Christensen, Sandefjord, The Ministry of Environment, Norsk Polarinstitutt, the Japanese ham community, and the LA-DX-Group. We hope you enjoyed the show!" The team landed on Bouvet Oeya from the motor vessel (MV) "Aurora", captained by M. Berentsen on December 25, 1989. The expedition crew flew to Montevideo to meet with the "Aurora" for the trip to Bouvet. The Aurora was equipped with a small helicopter brought from Norway which was used to assist in the landing of gear and equipment. Although there was an intention to establish two different camps, one on the west side of the island (favoring Europe and North America) and the other on the east side of the island (to favor operation toward Japan, Asia, and the Pacific area) due to the mammoth mountain peak occupying virtually all of the island, a visual inspection of the island showed that there appeared to be no suitable location on the east coast of Bouvet. All locations were considered too dangerous. Consequently, the operation was done from only one location. This decision was to have major ramifications since Asia and the Pacific would now be most easily worked over top of North America short-path on the Asia and Pacific long-path (of course, the same path). The operation was based in Nyroysa, the only location on the island considered by the expedition leaders to be safe for a camp. Nyroysa was composed of a large rock slide on the west coast of Bouvet. Nyroysa is a plateau which rises to an elevation of approximately 150' above sea level. The camp, antennas, and operating tents were positioned among the boulders and rock of Nyroysa. The massive rock face of the volcanic island provided a virtual shield to radio signals propagating short-path to Asia and the Pacific. The first QSO was made with Erling (LA6VM), the third member of Club Bouvet on December 28, 1989. There were four stations manned as much as possible on the air throughout the operation. Essentially, each operator had his own tent and station. All equipment for the expedition was ICOM and consisted of ICOM IC-751A transceivers, ICOM IC-2KL Linear Amplifiers, and ICOM AT-500 antenna tuners. Six meters was also activated using an ICOM IC-575D 6 meter transceiver. Antennas were four triband yagis IHidaka VS-33, Nagara TA-351, TH-3 Jr, and three Butternut HF6-V verticals. Low bands were activated using the venerable Battle Creek special (on 160, 80, and 40). Five generators were taken along (three Honda generators, and 2 Roheico generators). The expedition was able to maintain digital communications with supporters via an INMARSAT satellite link, which provided the ability to have 24 hour secure and dependable communications, receive weather advisories, etc. The operators also used a non-amateur commercial HF links for communication and coordination. The expedition made over 47,000 QSOs during their stay on the island. The break down of those contacts was: 16,800 CW QSOs, 30,000 SSB QSOs, and 291 RTTY QSOs. Geographic distribution shows the inherent difficult of working the Pacific and Asian areas via the long-path: North America involved 47.3 percent of the QSOs, Europe involved 31.3%, Asia had 15.8%, while Central and South America accounted for only 3.9% and Pacific/Oceania and Africa accounted for only .9 and .8% respectively. The Club Bouvet expedition departed Bouvet Island on January 13, 1990 and departure was facilitated by numerous flights of the helicopter to ferry supplies and crew back to the MV Aurora. All QSLing was coordinated by Erling (LA6VM). Full color QSLs were donated by Onoue Printing Company in Nagano, Japan. Corporate/government sponsorship involved the Norwegian Polar Research Institute, The Nordnorsk Filmsenter, the University of Trondheim, and The World Wide Fund for Nature. Other sponsors included: A/S Thor Dahl, A/S Ambra, A/S Bulls Tankrederi EB Norsk Kabel A/S, Hvalfangstens Sekretariat, Hvalfangernew Assuranceforening, jotun A/S Levahn Industrier, Sandefjord Kommune, TBK, Televerket, Victor Norse A/S, Bouvet-Ladubay S.A. (France), Clipperton DX Club, CQ ham radio (Japan), Danish DX Group, EUDXF, Ham Radio Outlet, Heard Island DX Association, Hidaka Denki Works (Japan), ICOM America Inc., INDEXA, JA DXers, LA-DX-GROUP, Lake Vettern DX Group, Lynx DX Group, Maspro Denki (Japan), (Nagara Denshi (Japan), Norther California DX Foundation, OH DX Boys, 59 Magazine (Japan), and JA1BK, VE3MR, K2ON, and KA8ANQ. This operation clearly made the most impact to date on the Bouvet Island needs of the amateur radio community, and the operation was pulled-off with a tremendous personal and financial cost to the Club Bouvet organizers. Bouvet was one of the most eagerly awaited major expeditions to come on the air up to that time. The operators and sponsors of the Club Bouvet operation merit the admiration and appreciation of every DXer who worked them for a new one, or a new one on a band or mode. However, a number of factors also made the 1989-1990 Bouvet Island expedition one of the most controversial of all time, due to the need to work Asia and Pacific areas long-path over top of the short-path opening to North America and Europe. This factor, combined with band-plan QSX, and atypical listening patterns led to massive amounts of frustration and problems. However, tens of thousand of DXers around the world also had all time new counters on modes or bands that they did not have before, and the goals of the dxpedition were realized. The SSIDXG planned 1997-1998 DXpedition to Bouvet Oeya has the goal of providing the same or more QSOs, distributed to all areas of the world equally based on relative population, to add satellite modes, to incorporate some of the recent technological advances in dxpeditioning, and to produce the absolute minimal disruption to the non-DXing amateur radio community. (The narrative description of the 3Y0X Dxpedition was based on the material contained in an article authored by Einer Enderud (LA1EE) and Kaare Pedersen (LA2GV) which appeared in QST magazine, October, 1990 issue, pages14 - 17 (pictures also involve the cover picture), and from the QSL card provided by Club Bouvet for QSOs made with the expedition. This narrative was written by Gary E. Jones, Ph.D., and involved my description of the information. Any inaccuracies are my responsibility... . Comments or corrections should be directed to the WEBmaster mail-link on the main SSIDXG WEB page. (From SSIDXG home page.) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 6 00:44:15 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA16708 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 00:44:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id AAA21458. Wed, 6 May 1998 00:40:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA21446 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 00:40:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from moose.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id AAA09652 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 00:40:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia103n.ncia.net [207.141.176.103]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA05545 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <354F94CE.6CC2C126@ncia.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 18:38:06 -0400 From: WRB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] French Exploration in Carribean X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Silvia Shannon wrote: > French traders had been trading in Brazil prior to 1510. The French > effort to establish a colony in Rio de Janeiro was led by Nicolas > Durand de > Villegagnon.The colony was authorized by king Henry II of France. The > colony > lasted from 1555-1560. It was not a huguenot colony even though there > were > Calvinists among the colonists.The French colony was defeated by the > Portuguese not by Philip II of Spain. The motive for the attack on the > French > in Brazil was not a religious one. The Portuguese did not desire to > see the > French maintain a fort on the coast of Brazil- a fort which would > enable the > French to protect their highly profitable trade with the Indians in > Brazil > for brazilwood and other items. > Silvia Shannon Thank you very much. This information is considerably differenct from what I read within the past six months but neglected to note the citation. I categorically remeber that it mentioned Phillip, that he had sent militia to wipe out two French colonies --the one in what is now Rio de Janeiro harbor and the other somewehere in Florida. Are you able to suggest a reference to document your slant on it it? Someone else sent me the name of a volume "The French in the West Indies," by Adolph Rogers, 1971. I've not a chance to search for the volume yet, but the title doesn't seem to include either Brazil or Florida. Thanks again, very much. RB From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 6 03:06:48 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA17178 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 03:06:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id DAA21588. Wed, 6 May 1998 03:03:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA21584 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 03:03:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dns.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA23607 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 03:03:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia103n.ncia.net [207.141.176.103]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA18163 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <354FB657.C3FCB6C6@ncia.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 21:01:11 -0400 From: WRB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] 16th Cent. French Exploration in Brazil & Florida X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199805041617.SAA03818@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Andre Engels wrote: > Richard Burack wrote: > > > French got to Brazil. But I thought it was a little later -- closer > to 1850. > > Please do educate us more abouut this all-but-forgotten episode in > History. And, > > while at it, can you provide a reference for what I know I have > read, viz., that > > Phillip sent militia to kill the French Huegenots in South America > (in their > > little colony on an island in what is now Rio de Janeiro's harbor)? > > Thanks, Richard Burack > > The first French contacts with Brazil date from the very early 16th > century. > In the first decade of that century a Frenchman named Gonneville made > two or > three voyages to 'Terre de Gonneville'. Although on maps of those > times it > is most often placed in the South-Atlantic portion of Terra Australis, > in > the last century it was realized that this must have been in Brazil. > The > tribe of indians he met there, of whom one or more visited France (I'm > not > certain whether they returned to Brazil or died there) has even been > identified, Carijo if I recall correctly. Unfortunately I have no > material > at hand about this short but interesting scene in the history of > exploration > and colonization. > > -- > Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 > http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > > A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order > will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson Yes. Thank you, Andre. Wilbert, in Tobacco and Shamanism in South America mentions Andre Thevet, 1557 and his studies of the Tupinamba Indians. He brought tobacco back to France. He also describes in some detail the use of tobacco by the Indians. Thevet had been a Franciscan Friar turned Calvinist. (By the way, I sent a message to correct the date -- I meant 1550 -- but it may not have been posted because my computer was acting up and then was completely on the fritz for three days.) Wilbert goes on to say that a Jean de Lery (1578) confirmed Thevet's observations in the same group of Indians but also observed tobacco use among the Caribs. From which I gather that the French were still in Brazil . de Lery (acute e) wrote his findings in 1592, in Latin, which was translated in 1951 into Portuguese by an unknown author whose publishing house was Livraria Martins, Sao Paulo. Thevet wrote of his observations in 1557: Les singularitez (sic) de la France Antartique, autrement nomme (acute e) Amerique: et de plusiers terres et isles decouvertes de nostre temps. It was translated (presumably from the orig. Latin) in 1928, author not given, by pub. house: "Paris: Chez les Hertiers de Maurice de la Porte." Come to think of it, I may have seen what I clearly recall reading, in an Encyclopedia.(Which surely doesn't make it correct.) But I haven't the time at the moment to re-peruse thoroughly the several encylopedias upstairs and will have to let it go for the moment except to say that I did look up Huguenots and Philip II in the 6th Ed. of the Birtiannica. It's obvious that the Huguenots arose from the Protestant movement and that the first of them were Calvinists. Also, that Philip was a "religious fanatic" although a "good administrator." Off to Canada for a week; you'll have to listen in again for follow up ... tho' the Portuguese name mentioned by the just preceding poster rings a bell. That, too, will have to be looked up. The trouble with writing a book is that just when you think you've covered a certain subject and want to let it go, something comes up about it that's new. An example is the info re C. Columbus that became available last week when Keith posted a letter. The material about C.C. was great and new , but before I could copy it, my computer crashed! Prof. Pickering! are you listening? I'd love to have that URL again. RB From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 6 04:53:50 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA25947 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 04:53:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id EAA21667. Wed, 6 May 1998 04:47:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA21663 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 04:46:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id EAA15473 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 04:46:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from artsnov1.auckland.ac.nz (artsnov1.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.77.20]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.5/8.7.3-ua) with ESMTP id OAA21091 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:46:36 +1200 (NZST) Received: from ARTSNOV1/SpoolDir by artsnov1.auckland.ac.nz (Mercury 1.21); 6 May 98 14:47:08 +1200 Received: from SpoolDir by ARTSNOV1 (Mercury 1.21); 6 May 98 14:46:40 +1200 From: "Shane Riddle" Organization: University of Auckland To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:46:36 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: [EXP] spanish in tahit In-reply-to: <354F2FAF.D7097F1F@bga.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.50) Message-ID: <1FCB16463E9@artsnov1.auckland.ac.nz> Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR if anyone knows anything about the spanish in tahiti i would be really interested. i am looking at the voyages in the 1700s. anything else anyone may know about any spanish trips to polynesia around that time would be great too. thanks, shane. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 6 06:04:59 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id GAA03270 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 06:04:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id GAA21713. Wed, 6 May 1998 06:02:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id GAA21709 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 06:01:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@ns2.agora.dk [194.19.128.20] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id GAA15755 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 06:01:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from 194.19.128.101 (pc01.agora.dk [194.19.128.101]) by heimdal.agora.dk (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA15911 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 06:03:30 +0200 Message-ID: <354FF052.67D8@apple.agora.dk> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 05:08:34 +0000 From: Wild Goose Organization: Aa-Tchoo! Film X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Tobago and the Duchy of Courland References: <199805011823.UAA00862@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> <354B52C8.533B327A@ncia.net> <354F2FAF.D7097F1F@bga.com> <354FB5A6.1A4B@helsingborg.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Bertil Haggman wrote: > During the 17th century Tobago > was controlled by the Duchy > if Courland (now part of Latvia > on the Baltic Sea). Courland > used Tobago for trading of slaves > between West Africa and Tobago. Between West Africa and where? (I think you made a typo?) Thanks. This post fascinates me, because I never even heard of Courland before! What's that part of Latvia called now? Again, thanks, Morten. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 6 06:56:15 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id GAA03511 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 06:56:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id GAA21736. Wed, 6 May 1998 06:53:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id GAA21732 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 06:53:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id GAA19120 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 06:53:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from heabppp42.helsingborg.se (heabppp42.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.202]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id GAA13275 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 06:53:21 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <35505DBE.1C2E@helsingborg.se> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 05:55:26 -0700 From: Bertil Haggman Organization: CRG X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Tobago and the Duchy of Courland References: <199805011823.UAA00862@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> <354B52C8.533B327A@ncia.net> <354F2FAF.D7097F1F@bga.com> <354FB5A6.1A4B@helsingborg.se> <354FF052.67D8@apple.agora.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Wild Goose wrote: > Between West Africa and where? > (I think you made a typo?) Thanks. > > This post fascinates me, because I never even heard of Courland before! > What's that part of Latvia called now? No typo ! Courland (the population at the time was to a great extent Baltic Germans due to the Middle Age control by the German Order in the area when numerous Germans migrated into Courland and the Baltic area) is now Kurzeme. If you take a look at a map of Latvia you will see a broad peninsula with the Baltic Sea on one side and the large Bay of Riga on the other. Main city on the Kurzeme peninsula is today Ventspils (Windau). The name Courland originates with the Baltic people Courians. Also Semgallia was part of the Duchy with the important city of Mitau. Greetings Bertil Haggman Author Member, Swedish Authors Association bertil.haggman@helsingborg.se From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 6 13:00:52 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id NAA06573 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 13:00:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id MAA22741. Wed, 6 May 1998 12:56:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id MAA22737 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 12:56:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id MAA05915. Wed, 6 May 1998 12:56:25 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199805061056.MAA05915@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] FW: Caribbean archaeology & ethnology To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:56:24 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The following message was originally sent to the list by A.H.Schulenburg (a.h.schulenburg@st-helena.org). It was not distributed because it contains a line starting with the word 'subscribe'. Such mails are not distributed as they are often subscribe-requests of the kind that should be sent to majordomo instead of the list. Unfortunately that will hit some bona fide messages as well. Andre Engels, list manager ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Caribbean listserv I have set up a world-wide e-mail discussion group for people interested in archaeology and ethnology of the Caribbean. The list is named STANDPIPE-L after the village pump around which much social discourse transpires in the West Indies. To subscribe, send an e-mail to listserv@lists.vcu.edu. You can leave the subject blank. The message should say: SUBSCRIBE STANDPIPE-L YOURFIRSTNAME YOURLASTNAME and nothing more. -- Dan Mouer Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology Virginia Commonwealth University http://saturn.vcu.edu/~dmouer/homepage.htm From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 6 15:27:25 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA08914 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 15:27:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA23786. Wed, 6 May 1998 15:19:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA23782 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 15:19:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@ns2.agora.dk [194.19.128.20] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA13073 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 15:19:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from 194.19.128.173 (pc73.agora.dk [194.19.128.173]) by heimdal.agora.dk (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA20509 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:20:44 +0200 Message-ID: <355071F0.129E@apple.agora.dk> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 14:21:36 +0000 From: Wild Goose Organization: Aa-Tchoo! Film X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Tobago and the Duchy of Courland References: <199805011823.UAA00862@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> <354B52C8.533B327A@ncia.net> <354F2FAF.D7097F1F@bga.com> <354FB5A6.1A4B@helsingborg.se> <354FF052.67D8@apple.agora.dk> <35505DBE.1C2E@helsingborg.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Bertil: You say, in your original post: > Courland > used Tobago for trading of slaves > between West Africa and Tobago. Can you confirm that you mean that Courland used TOBAGO for trading between West Africa and TOBAGO? If so, what were the slaves used for, in Tobago? Thanks for the further info about Courland. I'm going to have good fun calling my Latvian friends "imperialists", next time I meet them. Morten. Bertil Haggman wrote: > > Wild Goose wrote: > > > Between West Africa and where? > > (I think you made a typo?) Thanks. > > -SNIP- > > No typo ! From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu May 7 03:42:53 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA20019 (ESMTP). Thu, 7 May 1998 03:42:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id DAA25911. Thu, 7 May 1998 03:37:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA25907 (ESMTP). Thu, 7 May 1998 03:37:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@mail.minn.net [208.16.88.2] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id DAA19025 (ESMTP). Thu, 7 May 1998 03:37:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from PC_keithp.minn.net (dialup-pm2-18.minn.net [208.16.89.58]) by mail.minn.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA26258 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:37:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <354FB657.C3FCB6C6@ncia.net> References: Conversation <199805041617.SAA03818@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> with last message <354FB657.C3FCB6C6@ncia.net> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Discovery list" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Keith Pickering" Subject: Re: [EXP] 16th Cent. French Exploration in Brazil & Florida Date: Wed, 06 May 98 11:12:39 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The address of the Columbus Navigation Homepage is given below my signature. And thanks much for the academic appelation, but it's just 'Mr.' Best, Keith Pickering keithp@minn.net |====================================== | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp |====================================== ---------- > Andre Engels wrote: > > > Richard Burack wrote: > > > > > French got to Brazil. But I thought it was a little later -- closer > > to 1850. > > > Please do educate us more abouut this all-but-forgotten episode in > > History. And, > > > while at it, can you provide a reference for what I know I have > > read, viz., that > > > Phillip sent militia to kill the French Huegenots in South America > > (in their > > > little colony on an island in what is now Rio de Janeiro's harbor)? > > > Thanks, Richard Burack > > > > The first French contacts with Brazil date from the very early 16th > > century. > > In the first decade of that century a Frenchman named Gonneville made > > two or > > three voyages to 'Terre de Gonneville'. Although on maps of those > > times it > > is most often placed in the South-Atlantic portion of Terra Australis, > > in > > the last century it was realized that this must have been in Brazil. > > The > > tribe of indians he met there, of whom one or more visited France (I'm > > not > > certain whether they returned to Brazil or died there) has even been > > identified, Carijo if I recall correctly. Unfortunately I have no > > material > > at hand about this short but interesting scene in the history of > > exploration > > and colonization. > > > > -- > > Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 > > http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > > > > A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order > > will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson > > Yes. Thank you, Andre. Wilbert, in Tobacco and Shamanism in South > America mentions Andre Thevet, 1557 and his studies of the Tupinamba > Indians. He brought tobacco back to France. He also describes in some > detail the use of tobacco by the Indians. Thevet had been a Franciscan > Friar turned Calvinist. (By the way, I sent a message to correct the > date -- I meant 1550 -- but it may not have been posted because my > computer was acting up and then was completely on the fritz for three > days.) Wilbert goes on to say that a Jean de Lery (1578) confirmed > Thevet's observations in the same group of Indians but also observed > tobacco use among the Caribs. From which I gather that the French were > still in Brazil . de Lery (acute e) wrote his findings in 1592, in > Latin, which was translated in 1951 into Portuguese by an unknown author > whose publishing house was Livraria Martins, Sao Paulo. Thevet wrote of > his observations in 1557: Les singularitez (sic) de la France > Antartique, autrement nomme (acute e) Amerique: et de plusiers terres et > isles decouvertes de nostre temps. It was translated (presumably from > the orig. Latin) in 1928, author not given, by pub. house: "Paris: Chez > les Hertiers de Maurice de la Porte." > Come to think of it, I may have seen what I clearly recall reading, in > an Encyclopedia.(Which surely doesn't make it correct.) > But I haven't the time at the moment to re-peruse thoroughly the > several encylopedias upstairs and will have to let it go for the moment > except to say that I did look up Huguenots and Philip II in the 6th Ed. > of the Birtiannica. It's obvious that the Huguenots arose from the > Protestant movement and that the first of them were Calvinists. Also, > that Philip was a "religious fanatic" although a "good administrator." > Off to Canada for a week; you'll have to listen in again for follow up > ... tho' the Portuguese name mentioned by the just preceding poster > rings a bell. That, too, will have to be looked up. > The trouble with writing a book is that just when you think you've > covered a certain subject and want to let it go, something comes up > about it that's new. An example is the info re C. Columbus that became > available last week when Keith posted a letter. The material about C.C. > was great and new , but before I could copy it, my computer crashed! > Prof. Pickering! are you listening? I'd love to have that URL > again. > RB From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu May 7 19:35:21 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA07494 (ESMTP). Thu, 7 May 1998 19:35:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id TAA28039. Thu, 7 May 1998 19:30:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA28035 (ESMTP). Thu, 7 May 1998 19:29:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id TAA20201 (ESMTP). Thu, 7 May 1998 19:29:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from endxokep (207-172-44-80.s80.tnt3.brd.erols.com [207.172.44.80]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA20064 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 13:29:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul Dyson" To: Subject: [EXP] East Africa Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:26:04 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd79dd$3654c3a0$LocalHost@endxokep> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Does anyone know if the work of Mas'udi (AD 947), loosely translated as "Meadows of Gold and Mines of Gems", has been translated into English in its entirety? I am aware of the one volume work, translated by Sprenger into English in 1841, but have not located it yet. Apparently the only translation of more volumes of the Arabic text is in French (Barbier de Meynard and Pavet de Courteille, 1864). Even this translation is apparently not complete. I would be pleased to hear from anybody interested in the early history of the east African coast. Paul Dyson McLean VA USA pauldyson@erols.com From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 9 18:42:46 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA24723 (ESMTP). Sat, 9 May 1998 18:42:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA03523. Sat, 9 May 1998 18:37:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA03519 (ESMTP). Sat, 9 May 1998 18:37:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA29786 (ESMTP). Sat, 9 May 1998 18:37:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from heabppp71.helsingborg.se (heabppp71.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.226]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id SAA09488 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:37:29 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3554E684.2B56@helsingborg.se> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 16:28:04 -0700 From: Bertil Haggman Organization: CRG X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Tobago and the Duchy of Courland References: <199805011823.UAA00862@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> <354B52C8.533B327A@ncia.net> <354F2FAF.D7097F1F@bga.com> <354FB5A6.1A4B@helsingborg.se> <354FF052.67D8@apple.agora.dk> <35505DBE.1C2E@helsingborg.se> <355071F0.129E@apple.agora.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Wild Goose wrote: > Can you confirm that you mean that Courland used TOBAGO for trading > between West Africa and TOBAGO? If so, what were the slaves used for, > in Tobago? > > Thanks for the further info about Courland. I'm going to have good fun > calling my Latvian friends "imperialists", next time I meet them. Yes, Wild Goose, I can confirm that the Duchy of Courland was involved in triangle trade which included bringing slaves to Tobago for sale or use on the island in agriculture. I think the Latvians have a good case for defending themselves against any charge of "imperialism". The large part of present day Latvia (Livonia) was a Swedish "Gouvernemant General" at the time and Courland was ruled by Baltic Germans. Greetings Bertil Haggman From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 6 08:06:18 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id IAA03671 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 08:06:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id IAA21779. Wed, 6 May 1998 08:03:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id IAA21775 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 08:02:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@mx01.uni-tuebingen.de [134.2.3.11] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id IAA03649 (ESMTP). Wed, 6 May 1998 08:02:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailserv01.uni-tuebingen.de (root@[192.168.3.17]) by mx01.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21855 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:02:58 +0200 Received: from nemle01.extern.uni-tuebingen.de (nemle01.extern.uni-tuebingen.de [172.16.92.111]) by mailserv01.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA29232 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:02:56 +0200 Received: by nemle01.extern.uni-tuebingen.de with Microsoft Mail id <01BD78C5.48A671C0@nemle01.extern.uni-tuebingen.de>; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:02:15 +0100 Message-ID: <01BD78C5.48A671C0@nemle01.extern.uni-tuebingen.de> From: "J.B. Lethbridge" To: "'discovery@win.tue.nl'" Subject: RE: [EXP] Tobago and the Duchy of Courland Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:02:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Hallo: I am a bystander at this interesting list, but I have two small = questions if I may: 1. Is there a definitive history of Tobacco's discovery by the = Europeans, its arrival and subsequnet uses in Europe, at least till the = end of the 16th Cent? Or at least a book in which such information is = authoritatively contained. One reads apparently conflicting information = in derivative sources. 2. The Courland notes prompt me to as where onthe internet one might be = able to find an up to date political map of the world/Europe/Africa ... = .=20 Thank you very much Julian Lethbridge From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sat May 9 23:34:21 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA26824 (ESMTP). Sat, 9 May 1998 23:34:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id XAA03919. Sat, 9 May 1998 23:30:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin07 [131.155.70.232] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA03915 (ESMTP). Sat, 9 May 1998 23:30:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@ns2.agora.dk [194.19.128.20] by svin07.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id XAA13219 (ESMTP). Sat, 9 May 1998 23:30:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from 194.19.128.104 (pc04.agora.dk [194.19.128.104]) by heimdal.agora.dk (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA13069 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:32:51 +0200 Message-ID: <3554D87D.2581@apple.agora.dk> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 22:28:13 +0000 From: Wild Goose Organization: Aa-Tchoo! Film X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Re:Tobago and the Duchy of Courland References: <199805011823.UAA00862@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> <354B52C8.533B327A@ncia.net> <354F2FAF.D7097F1F@bga.com> <354FB5A6.1A4B@helsingborg.se> <354FF052.67D8@apple.agora.dk> <35505DBE.1C2E@helsingborg.se> <355071F0.129E@apple.agora.dk> <3554E684.2B56@helsingborg.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Thanks, Bertil, for clarifying. Bertil Haggman wrote: > > Yes, Wild Goose, I can confirm > that the Duchy of Courland was > involved in triangle trade which > included bringing slaves to > Tobago for sale or use on the > island in agriculture. > > I think the Latvians have a good > case for defending themselves against > any charge of "imperialism". The > large part of present day Latvia > (Livonia) was a Swedish "Gouvernemant > General" at the time and Courland was > ruled by Baltic Germans. Oh, well, I suppose I'll just have to stick to teasing my imperialistic Swedish and German friends, instead. By the way, where's Helsingborg? :) Regards, Morten Vildgaas. From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 10 05:14:35 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA14081 (ESMTP). Sun, 10 May 1998 05:14:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id FAA04583. Sun, 10 May 1998 05:11:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA04579 (ESMTP). Sun, 10 May 1998 05:11:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay-0.ziplink.net [206.15.168.49] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id FAA26055 (ESMTP). Sun, 10 May 1998 05:11:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from LOCALNAME (nyc-ip-1-143.ziplink.net [208.196.104.143]) by ziplink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26670 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.16.19980509230204.094f252e@pop3.ziplink.net> X-Sender: emerald@pop3.ziplink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (16) Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 23:02:04 -0400 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: "Michael J. Mooney" Subject: Re: [EXP] For Bouvet Island Fans from Bertil Haggman In-Reply-To: <354FC0BE.73EB@helsingborg.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Bertil, Belated thanks for your most informative post...from a fascinatingly different perspective. It's a keeper. M i k e = = = = = At 18:45 5/5/98 -0700, you wrote: >Previous Expeditions to Bouvet Oeya (Bouvet Island) > >Bouvet Oeya (Bouvet Island) has been activated only three times >for significant amateur radio operations making Bouvet one of the >most consistently sought-after and rare "countries" for >DXCC credit in the award's history. The remoteness of the >island and the difficulties in activating this island will continue >to keep this island near the top of the "most wanted list" under >the current country criteria. Bouvet Island was first activated >seriously in 1977 by 3Y1VC and 3Y3CC, and >then several years later by 3Y1VC and 3Y5DQ during the >austral summer 1978-1979. Previous expeditions have been >done largely as part of official scientific and governmental >activities of Norwegian Polar Exploration efforts. The initial >two expeditions by Norwegian amateurs >produced a total of approximately 2,500 QSOs. > >The first major expedition to Bouvet Oeya was conducted once >again by two Norwegian operators supplemented with three visitors. >The two leaders of this expedition, Einar (LA1EE) >and Kare (LA2GV) formed a support group named Club Bouvet >(along with Erling, LA6VM) to provide emotional and financial >support for a major DXpedition to Bouvet Island in 1989. These >two operators were joined on the expedition by Jin Fujiwara (JF1IST), >Jacky Calvo (F2CW) and >Willy Reusch (HB9AHL). > >The following is quoted from the 3Y5X QSL card: > >"This challenging expedition included five radio amateurs, two >scientists, >a film team of two, a helicopter crew of two, and a camp assistant. >The expedition arrived at Bouvet Oeya December 25, 1989 and >started landing operations the 27th. The amateur radio operation >commenced December 28. > >During the next 16 days, the radio amateurs made nearly 50,000 >contacts on CW, SSB, and RTTY, 160-10m. The scientists mapped >the census of penguins and seals and studies the behavior >of penguins. The film team shot seven hours of 16mm film for cinema >and TV. The 250th anniversary of the discovery of Bouvet Oeya was >celebrated and a commemorative plaque in the honor of Consul Lars >Christensen was bolted to a rock on the island's western shore >(Nyroeysa). > >This expedition was organized by three Norwegian radio amateurs >who founded Club Bouvet on May 17, 1989. The founders were >LA1EE, LA2GV, and LA6VM. The project was supported by >the Norwegian government and a number of organizations, clubs, >and individuals in 30 countries. Club Bouvet wishes in particular >to acknowledge the initiative and support by Mr. Thor >Christensen, Sandefjord, The Ministry of Environment, Norsk >Polarinstitutt, >the Japanese ham community, and the LA-DX-Group. We hope you enjoyed >the show!" > >The team landed on Bouvet Oeya from the motor vessel (MV) "Aurora", >captained by M. Berentsen on December 25, 1989. The expedition crew >flew to Montevideo to meet with the "Aurora" for the trip to Bouvet. The >Aurora >was equipped with a small helicopter brought from Norway which was used >to assist in the landing of gear and equipment. > >Although there was an intention to establish two different camps, one on >the west side of the island (favoring Europe and North America) and the >other on the east side of the island (to favor operation toward Japan, >Asia, >and the Pacific area) due to the mammoth mountain peak >occupying virtually all of the island, a visual inspection of the island >showed that there appeared to be no suitable location on the east coast >of Bouvet. All locations were considered too dangerous. Consequently, >the operation was done from only one location. This decision was to >have major ramifications since Asia and the Pacific would now be most >easily worked over top of North America short-path on the Asia and >Pacific long-path (of course, the same path). The >operation was based in Nyroysa, the only location on the island >considered by the expedition leaders to be safe for a camp. >Nyroysa was composed of a large rock slide on the west coast of >Bouvet. Nyroysa is a plateau which rises to an elevation of >approximately 150' above sea level. The camp, antennas, and >operating tents were positioned among the boulders and rock of >Nyroysa. The massive rock face of the volcanic island provided a >virtual shield to radio signals propagating short-path to Asia and the >Pacific. > >The first QSO was made with Erling (LA6VM), the third member of >Club Bouvet on December 28, 1989. There were four stations >manned as much as possible on the air throughout the >operation. Essentially, each operator had his own tent and station. >All equipment for the expedition was ICOM and consisted of ICOM >IC-751A transceivers, ICOM IC-2KL Linear Amplifiers, and ICOM >AT-500 antenna tuners. Six meters was also activated using an ICOM >IC-575D 6 meter transceiver. Antennas were four triband yagis IHidaka >VS-33, Nagara TA-351, TH-3 Jr, and three Butternut HF6-V verticals. >Low bands were activated using the venerable >Battle Creek special (on 160, 80, and 40). Five generators were >taken along (three Honda generators, and 2 Roheico generators). > >The expedition was able to maintain digital communications with >supporters via an INMARSAT satellite link, which provided the >ability to have 24 hour secure and dependable communications, >receive weather advisories, etc. The operators also used a non-amateur >commercial HF links for communication and coordination. > >The expedition made over 47,000 QSOs during their stay on the island. >The break down of those contacts was: 16,800 CW QSOs, 30,000 SSB >QSOs, and 291 RTTY QSOs. Geographic distribution shows the inherent >difficult of working the Pacific and Asian areas via the long-path: >North America involved 47.3 percent of the QSOs, Europe involved 31.3%, >Asia had 15.8%, while Central and South America accounted for only 3.9% >and Pacific/Oceania and Africa accounted for only .9 and .8% >respectively. > >The Club Bouvet expedition departed Bouvet Island on January 13, 1990 >and departure was facilitated by numerous flights of the helicopter to >ferry supplies and crew back to the MV >Aurora. All QSLing was coordinated by Erling (LA6VM). >Full color QSLs were donated by Onoue Printing Company in >Nagano, Japan. Corporate/government sponsorship >involved the Norwegian Polar Research Institute, >The Nordnorsk Filmsenter, the University of Trondheim, and >The World Wide Fund for Nature. Other sponsors included: >A/S Thor Dahl, A/S Ambra, A/S Bulls Tankrederi EB Norsk >Kabel A/S, Hvalfangstens Sekretariat, Hvalfangernew >Assuranceforening, jotun A/S Levahn Industrier, Sandefjord Kommune, >TBK, Televerket, Victor Norse A/S, Bouvet-Ladubay S.A. (France), >Clipperton DX Club, CQ ham radio (Japan), Danish >DX Group, EUDXF, Ham Radio Outlet, Heard Island DX Association, >Hidaka Denki Works (Japan), ICOM America Inc., INDEXA, >JA DXers, LA-DX-GROUP, Lake Vettern DX Group, >Lynx DX Group, Maspro Denki (Japan), (Nagara Denshi (Japan), >Norther California DX Foundation, OH DX Boys, 59 Magazine (Japan), >and JA1BK, VE3MR, K2ON, and KA8ANQ. > > >This operation clearly made the most impact to date on the >Bouvet Island needs of the amateur radio community, and >the operation was pulled-off with a tremendous personal and >financial cost to the Club Bouvet organizers. Bouvet was one >of the most eagerly awaited major expeditions to >come on the air up to that time. The operators and sponsors >of the Club Bouvet operation merit the admiration and appreciation >of every DXer who worked them for a new one, or a new one on >a band or mode. > >However, a number of factors also made the 1989-1990 Bouvet >Island expedition one of the most controversial of all time, due >to the need to work Asia and Pacific areas long-path over top of the >short-path opening to North America and Europe. This factor, >combined with band-plan QSX, and atypical listening patterns >led to massive amounts of frustration and problems. However, tens >of thousand of DXers around the world also had all time new counters >on modes or bands that they did not have before, and the goals of the >dxpedition were realized. > >The SSIDXG planned 1997-1998 DXpedition to Bouvet Oeya has the >goal of providing the same or more QSOs, distributed to all areas of >the world equally based on relative population, to >add satellite modes, to incorporate some of the recent technological >advances in dxpeditioning, and to produce the absolute minimal >disruption to the non-DXing amateur radio community. > > >(The narrative description of the 3Y0X Dxpedition was based on >the material contained in an article authored by Einer Enderud >(LA1EE) and Kaare Pedersen (LA2GV) which appeared in >QST magazine, October, 1990 issue, pages14 - 17 >(pictures also involve the cover picture), and from the QSL >card provided by Club Bouvet for QSOs made with the expedition. >This narrative was written by Gary E. Jones, Ph.D., and involved >my description of the information. Any inaccuracies are my >responsibility... . Comments or corrections should be >directed to the WEBmaster mail-link on the main SSIDXG WEB page. > >(From SSIDXG home page.) > > > > = = = = = MICHAEL J. MOONEY 140-10 Franklin Avenue (B44), Flushing, New York 11355-2657 USA FAX: (718) 460-6885 (dial auto-resend) Internet: - emerald@ziplink.net Compuserve: - 70372,2454 (70372.2454@compuserve.com) From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 10 10:09:25 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA14819 (ESMTP). Sun, 10 May 1998 10:09:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id KAA04702. Sun, 10 May 1998 10:04:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin01 [131.155.70.70] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA04698 (ESMTP). Sun, 10 May 1998 10:04:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from hbgstad.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.10] by svin01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA26380 (ESMTP). Sun, 10 May 1998 10:04:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from heabppp74.helsingborg.se (heabppp74.helsingborg.se [193.180.104.229]) by hbgstad.helsingborg.se (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id KAA08975 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:04:22 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3555C703.7511@helsingborg.se> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 08:25:55 -0700 From: Bertil Haggman Organization: CRG X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] On Geographical Positions References: <199805011823.UAA00862@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> <354A8C4F.AFB666F0@ncia.net> <354B52C8.533B327A@ncia.net> <354F2FAF.D7097F1F@bga.com> <354FB5A6.1A4B@helsingborg.se> <354FF052.67D8@apple.agora.dk> <35505DBE.1C2E@helsingborg.se> <355071F0.129E@apple.agora.dk> <3554E684.2B56@helsingborg.se> <3554D87D.2581@apple.agora.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Wild Goose wrote: > By the way, where's Helsingborg? :) Any Dane familiar with Prince Hamlet and Elsinore should know where Helsingborg is...or was it intended as a Danish joke ? Greetings Bertil Haggman From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 11 01:04:58 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA19226 (ESMTP). Mon, 11 May 1998 01:04:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id BAA06233. Mon, 11 May 1998 01:01:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA06229 (ESMTP). Mon, 11 May 1998 01:01:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from moose.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA19591 (ESMTP). Mon, 11 May 1998 01:01:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia80n.ncia.net [207.141.176.80]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA24324; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:00:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3556311D.34097F1E@ncia.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:58:37 -0400 From: WRB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lethbridge@uni-tuebingen.de CC: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Tobacco X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I have been studying the history of tobacco in detail for the past two-plus years. Just got back from a trip away and find your message among 83 others (sic) in my "in-box." I would be happy to make an effort this week or next to get what I believe are definitive and seemingly reliable reference source(s) to you. However you memtion that you have consulted sources and find conlicting information. It might be helpful if you would let me know what sources you have consulted what the major points of confusion entail. Why not write me directly? Many aspects of this subject were covered before MapHist split to accomodate Discovery and there are, I think, many who prefer not to have their hard drives filled with more discussion of tobacco. Richard Burack From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 11 01:42:43 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA19374 (ESMTP). Mon, 11 May 1998 01:42:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id BAA06273. Mon, 11 May 1998 01:41:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin04 [131.155.70.154] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA06269 (ESMTP). Mon, 11 May 1998 01:41:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dns.ncia.net [207.140.8.2] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id BAA19370 (ESMTP). Mon, 11 May 1998 01:41:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from burack.ncia.net (ncia80n.ncia.net [207.141.176.80]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA26505; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35563A7A.D99DDA0E@ncia.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 19:38:34 -0400 From: WRB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: keithp@minn.net, discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] Your CC Navig. Page X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Conversation <199805041617.SAA03818@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> with last message <354FB657.C3FCB6C6@ncia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Keith Pickering wrote: > The address of the Columbus Navigation Homepage is given below my > signature. > And thanks much for the academic appelation, but it's just 'Mr.' > > Best, > > Keith Pickering > keithp@minn.net > > |====================================== > | Visit the Columbus Navigation Homepage > | http://www1.minn.net/~keithp > |====================================== > > ---------- Thanks a lot "Mr. Pickering." You've tried to destroy a pleasant illusion, but I won't let you. I hereby declare that you are Honorary Professor of Columbian Matters in an non-existent university in Erehwemos, an unmapped place in the Umgebung of Jackson, NH. Dick Burack From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu May 14 09:59:34 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id JAA00389 (ESMTP). Thu, 14 May 1998 09:59:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id JAA18668. Thu, 14 May 1998 09:56:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id JAA18664 (ESMTP). Thu, 14 May 1998 09:56:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from jds@opus.vcn.bc.ca [207.102.64.2] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id JAA22782 (ESMTP). Thu, 14 May 1998 09:56:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (jds@localhost) by vcn.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA18733 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 00:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:56:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "John D. Spittle" To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: [EXP] SHD Conference Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR SHD 1998 Annual Meeting The Thirty-Eighth Annual Meeting of the Society for the History of Discoveries will take place in Vancouver, B.C. November 5th - 8th, 1998. It is being hosted by the Vancouver Maritine Museum and the Map Society of British Columbia. Further details will be found on our website:- http://www.vcn.bc.ca/shd98 John Spittle From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Fri May 15 16:01:34 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA29735 (ESMTP). Fri, 15 May 1998 16:01:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id PAA23922. Fri, 15 May 1998 15:58:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA23914 (ESMTP). Fri, 15 May 1998 15:58:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@calvino.alaska.net [209.112.130.6] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id PAA24302 (ESMTP). Fri, 15 May 1998 15:58:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [209.112.136.57] (jdc-p2-57.alaska.net [209.112.136.57]) by calvino.alaska.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA01777 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 05:58:11 -0800 (AKDT) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 05:58:11 -0800 (AKDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: deelong@alaska.net (Dee Longenbaugh) Subject: Re: [EXP] SHD Conference Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR >SHD 1998 Annual Meeting > >The Thirty-Eighth Annual Meeting of the Society for the History of >Discoveries will take place in Vancouver, B.C. November 5th - 8th, 1998. >It is being hosted by the Vancouver Maritine Museum and the Map Society >of British Columbia. Further details will be found on our website:- > > http://www.vcn.bc.ca/shd98 > Can you please put me on the mailing list (I assume there will be print material.) Thanks. Dee > > Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA 235 Second Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone 907/586-9676 Fax 907/586-9606 deelong@alaska.net From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu May 21 11:01:04 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id LAA27229 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 May 1998 11:01:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id KAA12898. Thu, 21 May 1998 10:58:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA12894 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 May 1998 10:58:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery id KAA26624. Thu, 21 May 1998 10:57:57 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199805210857.KAA26624@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Columbus' naming of the Indians To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:57:57 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I got the following request for information through email. I do not know the answer to this question, so I'm asking if any of you can give some information of interest on this subject. > I have been poring over your Columbus information to find something. I > once read somewhere that Columbus, a religious man, called the first > people he saw in the new world "Gente in Dio" god's people in Italian. > He noted that they were naked as they were born, and this makes more > sense to me than the folkloric myth that Columbus thought he was in the > Indies, which weren't called that in 1492. (Though the region was > called Hindustan.) -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu May 21 18:26:23 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA29466 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 May 1998 18:26:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA15428. Thu, 21 May 1998 18:25:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svin03 [131.155.70.153] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA15416 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 May 1998 18:24:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us [146.115.194.10] by svin03.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA27272 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 May 1998 18:24:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from [146.115.194.168] by bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Thu, 21 May 1998 12:25:35 -0400 X-Sender: reaston@bert.bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:26:04 -0500 To: discovery@win.tue.nl From: reaston@bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us (Robert W. Easton) Subject: Re: [EXP] Columbus' naming of the Indians Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR My third graders love nothing more than to hear that something their teacher has told them might be incorrect! I hope someone has more information on this question. I have always thought the "Indies-indians" explanation was kind of lame, but without a better hypothesis, taught it anyway. I look forward to your comments. (But consider your youthful audience, please). Question of the day: Who said: "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"? Robert W. Easton - Bancroft School 110 Shore Drive Worcester, MA USA 01605 reaston@bancroft.pvt.k12.ma.us From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Thu May 21 21:21:37 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA00825 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 May 1998 21:21:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id VAA15798. Thu, 21 May 1998 21:19:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svis01 [131.155.70.161] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA15794 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 May 1998 21:19:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236] by svis01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id VAA29808 (ESMTP). Thu, 21 May 1998 21:19:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from endxokep (207-172-120-80.s80.tnt14.brd.erols.com [207.172.120.80]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA12519 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:19:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul Dyson" To: Subject: [EXP] Portuguese in SE Africa Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:15:57 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd84ec$e1df54a0$5078accf@endxokep> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I attended a meeting on the early mapping of Africa where the speaker informally told me that there are references to the Portuguese having known of (visited?) Victoria Falls many years before the Livingstone "discovery" of the falls. To my knowledge the most upstream settlement by the Portuguese on the Zambezi was at the junction with the Luangwa River. This settlement was, and is, called Feira. Another place name nearby is Zumbo and I am unclear as to whether the Portuguese presence in this area was pre the 1575 massacre at Chicova or much later. It does not seem beyond the realms of possibility that the Portuguese would have known of the falls as they are only about 200m upstream from Feira/Zumbo. Can anyone add anything to this either by offering references or being able to show that the Portuguese knew nothing of Victoria Falls. Paul Dyson McLean, VA From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Sun May 24 20:43:33 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA05583 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 May 1998 20:43:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id UAA21161. Sun, 24 May 1998 20:37:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id UAA21157 (ESMTP). Sun, 24 May 1998 20:37:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery id UAA29646. Sun, 24 May 1998 20:37:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199805241837.UAA29646@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Gente in Dio To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 20:37:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR The following was sent to the list by Karen Collins (collins@wtjam.net). The original post was refused because it exceeded the list's maximum size of 40000 characters (maybe I should put it higher?). I have removed the picture. If someone is interested in it, they can mail me (engels@win.tue.nl), and I'll forward it to you personally. Or you can mail the original sender, of course. Andre Engels, list manager ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andre - It is a shame I haven't got my copy of Columbus' journal with me now in Jamaica. I cannot remember anything written with Columbus calling the Taino people of Guanahani (San Salvador) "Gente in Dio". I will see what more I can find out though. I do know that the statement that the indigenous people were naked is in fact correct. One version of the journal translates the following reaction when he first arrived at the island of his landfall: But they seemed to me a people very short of everything. They all go naked as their mothers bore them, including the women, although I saw only one very young girl. And again when he was off the islands he called Santa Maria de la Concepción: There were very many people all naked and like those of San Salvador. Although, at a later point in his voyage, when he was off Cuba, he wrote: As soon as the inhabitants saw us they ran away, leaving their houses. They hid their clothing and all that they had in the undergrowth (I'm not sure how he knew they had clothing if they had hidden it?) Even after visiting the first four islands he still referred to the indigenous people as "Indians". I believe he was (even until he died) under the mistaken impression that he was then in the East Indies. He then set out for what he hoped would be Chipangu (sometimes seen spelled Cipango): After this I shall set out for another large island which, according to the indications given me by the Indians whom I have aboard, must be Chipangu. They however call is Colba [Cuba] and say that there are many large ships and sailors there. From here I shall go to another island, which they call Bohio [Hispaniola] and say is also very large. In passing I shall see the others that lie between and according to whether I find a quantity of gold or spices I shall decide what to do next. But I am still determined to go to the city of Quinsay [Hangchow - the capital of the Grand Khan - described by Marco Polo], to deliver your Highnesses' letters to the Grand Khan and request his answer which I shall bring back. I have attached a graphic which I redrew from a copy Bertie Sadler had in his first editions of "Turks Islands Landfall". I was never able to pin down the exact source of the original from which it came. But it was around at the time Columbus was developing his plans for his first voyage, as was the Toscanelli map of about 1481. It shows clearly what Columbus must have been imagining at the time and explains many of the statements he makes in his journal (such as the one above). I hope this is of some interest to the person who contact you. Regards, Karen From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Mon May 25 18:47:38 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA02291 (ESMTP). Mon, 25 May 1998 18:47:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id SAA26231. Mon, 25 May 1998 18:43:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svbs01 [131.155.69.3] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA26227 (ESMTP). Mon, 25 May 1998 18:43:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@delftnet.nl [194.229.15.1] by svbs01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id SAA17188 (ESMTP). Mon, 25 May 1998 18:43:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from peter (modem5.delftnet.nl [194.229.15.250]) by delftnet.nl (8.8.2/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA20349; Mon, 25 May 1998 18:43:39 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980525184606.006bf620@delftnet.nl> X-Sender: pvdk@delftnet.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:46:06 +0200 To: maphist@harvarda.harvard.edu, discovery@win.tue.nl From: Peter van der Krogt Subject: [EXP] Magelhaes' maps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR (Cross-posted to MapHist and Discovery list) Dear all Today I received a question from P. Schreurs MSC on a subject concerning old maps and discoveries which is quite far from my own subject. I don't have the appropriate literature. So I hope one of you can help mr Schreurs (I don't think he is on e-mail, I will mail printouts of answers to him. He wrote to me (free translation by me): The only surviving ship of Magelhaes' expedition arrived in 1522 in Sevilla. An account of this voyage was made by Antonio Pigafetta, titled _Primo Viaggio atorno il mondo_. In 1523 Nuno Garcia de Toreno made a chart after the original sketches by Pigafetta to serve as information for the expedition by Jofre de Loaysa (1525). A copy of this map is in the Bibliotheca Reale of Turin. Two copies of this map are made, in 1524 and 1529 respectively, these copies are known as the "Weimar maps", and separately also the 1529 map as "Wolfenb=FCttel map".=20 Mr Schreurs has made some notes on these, but he lost these in Mindanao (I suppose he is a retired missionary, als also the addition MSC to his name suggests*). Mr Schreurs is looking for over 12 years to these maps, and now he asks if these two maps still exist and where they are located. >From the names "Weimar" and "Wolfenb=FCttel" I suppose they are (were?) in the libraries in those cities. Who can confirm this. Thanks in advance of behalf of P. Schreurs, Peter * MSC =3D Missionarii Sacratissimi Cordis [Iesu] , Missionaries of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus ______________________________________________________ Visit the MapHist WWW page >From 1 June 1998 all URLs and e-mail addresses of Utrecht University will change. The section "frw.ruu" will be altered into "geog.uu" The new address of the MapHist page will be from that date: YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY Dr Peter van der Krogt Map Historian, Explokart Research Program Faculty of Geographical Sciences, University of Utrecht P.O. Box 80.115 3508 TC UTRECHT, The Netherlands >From 1 June 1998: e-mail: p.vanderkrogt@frw.ruu.nl (from 1 June 1998: p.vanderkrogt@geog.uu.nl) and pvdk@delftnet.nl Fax +31 15 212 6063 YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY PER ANGUSTA AD AUGUSTA YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 27 10:27:31 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA24315 (ESMTP). Wed, 27 May 1998 10:27:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id KAA03691. Wed, 27 May 1998 10:23:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id KAA03687 (ESMTP). Wed, 27 May 1998 10:23:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery id KAA05536. Wed, 27 May 1998 10:23:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199805270823.KAA05536@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: [EXP] Archive Offer To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:23:20 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR I got the following mail in my mailbox today: > Andre, > > Do you run the Discovery Exploration mailing list? > > We archive a number of public and private mailing lists for web-based search > and browse, including discussion on topics such as medicine, science, > religion, automotive, and even history. You can see a list of some of the > archives we host many of which are open for viewing at: > http://www.escribe.com/public.html > Any interest in having such an archive for your list? > > We archive some of our own mailing lists here and have extra bandwidth > and disk space to archive other mailing lists. The service is free > to listowners and subscribers. > > Let me know if you are interested. > > Thanks, > > -Scott > > p.s. you can find our general policy info at our home page: > http://www.escribe.com/ To me this seemed like a useful offer, but I'll first check whether any of you has objections. If not, I will go ahead and request the service by the end of this week or the beginning of next week. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 27 16:55:06 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA28038 (ESMTP). Wed, 27 May 1998 16:55:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id QAA05851. Wed, 27 May 1998 16:53:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from root@svtt01 [131.155.70.80] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA05847 (ESMTP). Wed, 27 May 1998 16:53:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailgate22-hme0.a001.sprintmail.com [205.137.196.54] by svtt01.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id QAA02318 (SMTP). Wed, 27 May 1998 16:53:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by mailgate22.a001.sprintmail.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA15807; Wed, 27 May 1998 07:52:47 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sprintmail.com Received: from unknown(168.191.227.178) by mailfep4-hme1 via dsmap-1.22 id Q_10.1.1.10/Q_18129_1_356c2895; Wed, 27 May 1998 07:52:05 -0700 Message-ID: <356C25EB.513ED0F6@sprintmail.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:40:44 -0700 From: Paul Buell Organization: Alpha Omega Research and Trans X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: discovery@win.tue.nl Subject: Re: [EXP] Archive Offer References: <199805270823.KAA05536@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Some of these organizations sell such archives and limit access to them. There is also the question of reuse without permission, sometimes for additional profit. See the lengthy and exhaustive discussions on Mediev-L about a year and a half ago on the same subject (Mediev-L has its own archive or contact me and I will get anyone interested in contact with the owner). My union (National Writers Union) has also gotten stirred up about this and about the question of Web intelectual rights in general. I personally have no objection in any case (could not care less in fact, as long as someone else does not copyright anything I write or say without my permission) but the list might consider having its own digest or archive too. Our words of wisdom should be generally available since this is a public list. Paul D. Buell Andre Engels wrote: > I got the following mail in my mailbox today: > > > Andre, > > > > Do you run the Discovery Exploration mailing list? > > > > We archive a number of public and private mailing lists for web-based search > > and browse, including discussion on topics such as medicine, science, > > religion, automotive, and even history. You can see a list of some of the > > archives we host many of which are open for viewing at: > > http://www.escribe.com/public.html > > Any interest in having such an archive for your list? > > > > We archive some of our own mailing lists here and have extra bandwidth > > and disk space to archive other mailing lists. The service is free > > to listowners and subscribers. > > > > Let me know if you are interested. > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Scott > > > > p.s. you can find our general policy info at our home page: > > http://www.escribe.com/ > > To me this seemed like a useful offer, but I'll first check whether any > of you has objections. If not, I will go ahead and request the service > by the end of this week or the beginning of next week. > > -- > Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 > http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html > > A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order > will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson From owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Wed May 27 17:09:35 1998 Received: from svin12.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.135] by svin04.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA28353 (ESMTP). Wed, 27 May 1998 17:09:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from majordom@localhost by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery-list id RAA05985. Wed, 27 May 1998 17:09:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@wsinfm15 [131.155.69.168] by svin12.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for id RAA05977 (ESMTP). Wed, 27 May 1998 17:09:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from engels@localhost by wsinfm15.win.tue.nl (8.8.7) for discovery@win.tue.nl id RAA05931. Wed, 27 May 1998 17:09:14 +0200 (MET DST) From: engels@win.tue.nl (Andre Engels) Message-Id: <199805271509.RAA05931@wsinfm15.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: [EXP] Archive Offer To: discovery@win.tue.nl Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:09:13 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <356C25EB.513ED0F6@sprintmail.com> from "Paul Buell" at May 27, 98 07:40:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-discovery@win.tue.nl Precedence: bulk Reply-To: discovery@win.tue.nl Status: OR Paul Buell wrote: > > Some of these organizations sell such archives and limit access to them. There is > also the question of reuse without permission, sometimes for additional profit. > See the lengthy and exhaustive discussions on Mediev-L about a year and a half ago > on the same subject (Mediev-L has its own archive or contact me and I will get > anyone interested in contact with the owner). My union (National Writers Union) > has also gotten stirred up about this and about the question of Web intelectual > rights in general. I personally have no objection in any case (could not care less > in fact, as long as someone else does not copyright anything I write or say > without my permission) but the list might consider having its own digest or > archive too. Our words of wisdom should be generally available since this is a > public list. Paul D. Buell There is something like an archive available at http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/discovery/list/list.html but it would be a bore to read them that way. -- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644 http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither - Thomas Jefferson